A question about Americans

[quietasariot]

I'm an American, married to a Marine, etc. etc.

I'm just curious - are we (Americans affiliated with the military) all disliked? I mean, say if I'm walking through Jusco with my daughter (who is quite well behaved, unlike many/most military 'brats'), and someone just walks by me, do they automatically dislike "me" because I'm an American? I'm not trying to bring up discrimination issues, because believe me, I know exactly why we aren't liked and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm really just quite curious.

I am polite/courteous to every person that crosses my path, Okinawan or American. By doing so, I hope that at least some Okinawans can see we aren't ALL terrible people who like to drink/carouse/etc. Some of us do value the family life, our jobs, etc.

It's very interesting to see how different Americans and Okinawan/Japanese are, though. I love living here and I wish I could stay here forever :/.

[Tempestuous]

Originally Posted by quietasariot

I'm an American, married to a Marine, etc. etc.

I'm just curious - are we (Americans affiliated with the military) all disliked? I mean, say if I'm walking through Jusco with my daughter (who is quite well behaved, unlike many/most military 'brats'), and someone just walks by me, do they automatically dislike "me" because I'm an American? I'm not trying to bring up discrimination issues, because believe me, I know exactly why we aren't liked and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm really just quite curious.

I am polite/courteous to every person that crosses my path, Okinawan or American. By doing so, I hope that at least some Okinawans can see we aren't ALL terrible people who like to drink/carouse/etc. Some of us do value the family life, our jobs, etc.

It's very interesting to see how different Americans and Okinawan/Japanese are, though. I love living here and I wish I could stay here forever :/.

Sometimes, I think it is the case. But many are super friendly & enjoy interacting.

When we were there, we found many of the locals were a little more judgmental/negative towards us & as we interacted they would ask our service affiliation.
Many times there was a great shift into friendliness when they found out we were not Marines.
I think many have a more negative connotation associated with that label than just being 'American'.

But we were like you, we tried to show our best side and act as a respectable guest as much as possible.
We were always embarrassed when we would be out in town and a fellow military member would act a fool.
Just one of those things where you go- well sheesh! No wonders they act like they do around us!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Quietasariot, EXCELLENT topic!

Here is what my Japanese wife says (and perhaps later I will add what some of my old Okinawan girlfriends had said).

My wife basically says the military come off as kind of a dumbed down version of 'real Americans' which she and all her friends say can be seen only by going to the U.S. Mainland. I mean, she listens to them and the way they talk at the next table in Star Bucks and how they show their asses in town by acting stupid and a picture begins to take root that is contrasted with what is in the states.

My wife and I have met military spouses (wives), and for the most part, the wives of enlisted come off as being less refined than officers' wives, and the difference can be quite noticable. But then officer wives come off as being stuck up. And the wives seem to put their identity in with their husbands' rank or status in the military. They don't stand on their own as wives with carreers or jobs back in the States.

That is it for now, and there is more. I will discuss this with my wife more later and add to it. I know stereotyping is bad, but it is true, that bad apples spoil the barrel of other apples. I wish it weren't so.

And nothing I say in this thread is said as sarcastic or meant to demean or insult. It is directly answering Quiet's question with knowledge of what Okinawans/Japanese that I know and have known said concerning U.S. military persons and their spouses here.

[Boost]

Originally Posted by TheProsecutor

Quietasariot, EXCELLENT topic!

Here is what my Japanese wife says (and perhaps later I will add what some of my old Okinawan girlfriends had said).

My wife basically says the military come off as kind of a dumbed down version of 'real Americans' which she and all her friends say can be seen only by going to the U.S. Mainland. I mean, she listens to them and the way they talk at the next table in Star Bucks and how they show their asses in town by acting stupid and a picture begins to take root that is contrasted with what is in the states.

My wife and I have met military spouses (wives), and for the most part, the wives of enlisted come off as being less refined than officers' wives, and the difference can be quite noticable. But then officer wives come off as being stuck up. And the wives seem to put their identity in with their husbands' rank or status in the military. They don't stand on their own as wives with carreers or jobs back in the States.

That is it for now, and there is more. I will discuss this with my wife more later and add to it. I know stereotyping is bad, but it is true, that bad apples spoil the barrel of other apples. I wish it weren't so.

And nothing I say in this thread is said as sarcastic or meant to demean or insult. It is directly answering Quiet's question with knowledge of what Okinawans/Japanese that I know and have known said concerning U.S. military persons and their spouses here.

I agree 100% TP. I am very fortunate to have a wife that always presents herself with self respect and dignity, which is a very good thing when you are at functions with higher ups and such. But sadly, what you have described in both enlisted and officer spouses, I saw plenty of as well. Military spouses need to realize that like it or not, they represent their spouse as well when out in public and at functions, and it can taint their superiors view of their subordinate.

[Asshat]

Quietasariot, what a great question! If I posed the question, "do Americans like Japanese people" the replies would be as varied as the people asked about.

So, the short answer is "no." Everyone is an individual, and although you will be placed in the "gaijin box" you can work your way out of it by doing those things you do. By being polite, and trying to understand the langauage, the dynamics of the culture, and realizing that the way you were raised- your comportment rules- are not the only rules that apply.

My ex mother-in-law was 17 and hiding in caves during WWII. She heard the stories the Japanese military handed out...about the murders and rapes they could expect. (Here, use these sharp bamboo sticks and kill them)

I asked her if she liked Americans one day. Her reply was, "Of course I like them. They used to feed us!"

A lot of us have lived here many decades, have families who are Okinawan and have long-time friends who are Okinawan. If they didn't like us, none of that would be possible. I drink and carrouse with those friends by the way.

Learn the language- or enough to go shopping with. Get a few books on the history of Okinawa, learn to play the shamisen, make friends. Heck, people will pay you to converse with them in English- and many spouses have made friends that way. In the end, some things are universal- like you said, loving a family- shopping, just living life. Embrace the commonality and you will find an island full of happy, loving people who don't care where you come from.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Originally Posted by quietasariot

I am polite/courteous to every person that crosses my path, Okinawan or American. By doing so, I hope that at least some Okinawans can see we aren't ALL terrible people who like to drink/carouse/etc. Some of us do value the family life, our jobs, etc.

If they don't know you, it may be irrelevant how good you act (although acting outwardly rude would make the thought even worse), because Japanese and Okinawans have tatemae as a strong part of their thinking. Basically, tatemae is just "superficial" acting or sentiment, and it is expected that this "act" is presented as much as possible in public to strangers.

Now, you and I know that Americans more so than Japanese wear their true selves on their sleeves, but not all, and many Japanese, do not know that.

Now, I don't think Okinawans "hate" you because you are associated with the military -- like you asked in your OP -- but some of the ones I know kind of resent that the military bring their whole families over here straining the already stretched recourses, such as water and land.

Japanese businessmen when getting assigned overseas for several years may make, and many do, the decision with the wife that it is best for her to stay in Japan and raise the kids by keeping stability in their education and social life. My wife asks, "Why should our recources be stretched just because U.S. military families can't bear separation from each other for a few years?"

[socalheart]

Growing up on Okinawa, I've seen an evolution of the military American here. As a new member of this group, I am acutely aware from the inside of how we're perceived. I also am familiar with how we're perceived from the outside.

Most everything the others have said is correct to varying degrees. I applaud those parents who have a handle on their children in public. I also appreciate those military Americans who dress appropriately in public. I believe it's important to behave as respectable adults regardless of rank.

The locals don't ALL hate us. Those who have had bad experiences with military Americans may not like us. There are still Okinawan bars that disallow Americans of any kind, because one too many Americans were rude or worse. It's little different from the way things are stateside.

I've seen the locals coo over our kids hundreds of times when the kids are behaving. I know of one old woman who picked a baby up from its stroller after cooing at it to play more. The American mother freaked out, started yelling at the old lady and grabbed the baby from the old woman who was shocked at the mother. The mother later confessed it was a lack of understanding on her part. The damage to our image was already done though. I think that if she had taken the time to know that was common behaviour for older local women, this could've been avoided.

Opinion: As an aside, I do believe that the Japanese police profile Americans especially for ticketing and such. I don't think they like us much at all. The Japanese that work on the base as security aren't much better about such things either.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Originally Posted by socalheart

I've seen the locals coo over our kids hundreds of times when the kids are behaving. I know of one old woman who picked a baby up from its stroller after cooing at it to play more. The American mother freaked out, started yelling at the old lady and grabbed the baby from the old woman who was shocked at the mother.

It is regretable that that happened. Another one of my Okinawan acquaintances observations about American women here in Okinawa -- they seem prone to hysteria, and while it may not be true, your incident above would reinforce that with those who witnessed that scene. Japanese think there is a beauty associated with a calm quiet demeanor. The opposite of that can make one ugly in their eyes.

Speaking of babies and ugly and a little similar to your story:

I was in Jusco several years ago at the counter paying for something, and an American military couple with their little child in a stroller was behind me. Behind them were 3 Japanese ladies of either H.S. or college age. Well, they just assumed that all of us Americans at the counter were together and could not understand any Japanese.

They all started cooing and fussing over the Baby in Japanese and smiling the whole time as they did so. The American couple were quite proud and pleased that their baby was getting all this attention. Sadly, though, what these girls were doing was making fools of the parent as they talked bad about the baby saying in Japanese, "Sugei busu. Chotto buta nitte iru. Konna ni minikui kao aru ko ima made mita koto nai. Shinjiran." and more like that -- and lots of giggles.

Translation: "How fat and ugly. Looks a little like a pig. I have never seen such an ugly face until now. I can't believe it."

I thought about saying something. Perhaps I should have. I kind of regret that I didn't now. But, so many times on forums like this I have seen people say as guests here we have no right to complain about anything that our hosts do. I don't agree with that, but many do have that sentiment.

In the end, no harm was done and the perceived harmoney and kindness of the Okinawans was left in tact for this couple. And the shallow girls went on their way to enjoy their weekend shopping.

[Asshat]

As I said before, this is a cool thread. After I posted initially, I thought of some other aspects surrounding this subject. Like why are Americans more concerned than others about being liked?

Stretching Island resources is a new one on me. I have never heard anyone say or discuss that. I think of the current roadways and the crowding, and perhaps the water usage at times. Not to change the thread, but I can not think of too much else that military dependants change. I can think of much more that they add however with regard to money. Then again, we enter into who actually has the money here.

The "Okinawan Bars" by and large do not cater to Americans because their clientel don't want to associate with Americans. Not because of anything Americans have done in their establishments. Another reason is that they don't want to be bothered with trying to communicate with people who do not speak Japanese. I can tell you that it is quite possible to get in most establishments if you do speak Japanese. Unless you know for instance that you must first talk to the guy next to the Lawsons with the radio, you will never get anywhere in Naha.

A few years ago, I was parked across the street from what is now called "Gyros" in Chatan. I was at a place with five or six friends, all of whom drove either rental (wa) plates, or their own "kanji" hiragana plates, with my "Y" plated car right in the middle. The cops showed up, and we caught them ticketing only my car. It was actually quite comical, since everyone of us spoke enough Japanese to fluently ask them what their problem was.

The lead cop called in to the station and told the supervisor that there were "other" cars there too, and what should he do? Thus, I was sure the decision to single out my car was made by the cops on the beat.

It's racism, pure and simple. So what? Most of the world is. I think anyone who lives anywhere has the right to question motives of local governments and buisnesses who appear to favor one race over another. Most importantly, don't worry who does or does not like you. Some people will always spit on the sidewalk in front of you no matter how nice you are to them.

[quietasariot]

"I agree 100% TP. I am very fortunate to have a wife that always presents herself with self respect and dignity, which is a very good thing when you are at functions with higher ups and such. But sadly, what you have described in both enlisted and officer spouses, I saw plenty of as well. Military spouses need to realize that like it or not, they represent their spouse as well when out in public and at functions, and it can taint their superiors view of their subordinate."

I agree with this. I see a lot of wives wearing their husband's rank on their sleeves as if to say THEY earned the rank. Nope, sorry lady, we might have a hard life as a "military wife" but I can tell you your husband does a hell of a lot more work and sacrifices a hell of a lot more than you will in a lifetime. That's what I feel like telling these women, but there are too many of them and not enough of me!

I think sometimes we're more concerned because, well, face it, we're not well-liked. I'm proud to be an American, but I'm not proud of some of the things Americans do. No country is perfect but we seem to get the most publicity about it :P

That is really sad about the lady who freaked out . As I said before, I've lived here before, I knew how I should present myself, etc. etc. So, when anybody just gushes over my daughter, I take it as a compliment! At first I was a little freaked out by some stranger picking my daughter up but I know they mean well, not harm.

Ok, enough out of me, I'm tired and probably not making much sense :P