Question for an Environmentalist

[Saint Borlaug]

My random thought of the day-

We are always told to shut off lights and appliances and some people would have us go as far as unplug these devices.

But if that wasted energy is just being turned into waste heat, and if it is winter and we are heating our houses anyways, wouldn't that waste heat be equally useful?

In other words, wouldn't all our electrical devices act as low-output space heaters, thus sparing the central heating unit some work?

Is there a fallacy in this argument? :scratchchin:

[DoctorP]

It would depend on what you are calling "low-output". If you have a home PC with a 400-500W power supply then I would say no. If you are talking about a laptop, then I doubt the amount of heat energy produced is enough to offset the regular heating system. I mean, you might need 50 laptops to equal 1/16th of the output of the home heating unit.

[Blues]

Electronics and Appliances and light bulbs don't make for efficient heaters.
The amount of wattage required to heat your home through that method would be excessive for the BTUs needed to raise the temperature by 1 degree.

A neighbor of mine did have a dorm room full of electronics and his room was hot as hell cause he left his stuff running all day (big screen plasma, game consoles, two PCs) but I guarantee that he would never do that if he had to pay the electrical bill...

[Okiman]

Just one flaw with the wasted energy equaling wasted heat. Most things are about 85-95% effecient now a days with turning engergy into what you need whether it is turning a motor, powering a laptop, creating light (except for incandescents), etc. This means that only 5-15% of power is being lost into waste heat. Now the big screen TVs do put out a bunch of heat, but they take a lot of power to get that pretty picture on the screen. If you take the 46" HDTV guys buy and put into their small barracks, there is not enough room to displace the heat, thus causing the room to warm up. Better idea to save money is to put up some tin foil and reflect the radiant heat from the sun into the room and you can get free heating during the day. For the summer time you can put the foil on the windows and reflect the heat away.

[retributionnk]

I read a really cool article on waste heat the other day. I don't know how I feel about it quite yet, but the article is purdy awesome nonetheless. NERD ALERT: It's kinda crunchy and science-heavy.

Waste heat could warm the earth. (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/12/03/waste-heat-could-warm-the-earth-perhaps-it-has-already-started/)

[DoctorP]

Well...to be honest, when engineers and architects design new buildings they take into account the number and types of equipment/electronics that will be operating there and adjust for the added heat...just as they have to build the A/C system by computing how much body heat will be emitted by the number of people occupying the building, so the original question is a valid one, but really nothing that hasn't been thought about for a long time now.

[whyisitso]

My random thought of the day-

We are always told to shut off lights and appliances and some people would have us go as far as unplug these devices.

But if that wasted energy is just being turned into waste heat, and if it is winter and we are heating our houses anyways, wouldn't that waste heat be equally useful?

In other words, wouldn't all our electrical devices act as low-output space heaters, thus sparing the central heating unit some work?

Is there a fallacy in this argument? :scratchchin:

Since no one has actually answered your question, here's your answer: Yes.

To the extent your low-load devices (aka phantom loads) are using electrical energy, they are mostly just heating your house. So, if you are using utility electricity to heat your house anyway, then don't bother with these small loads.

When electrical energy is "used," it is converted to some other form of energy such as mechanical or electromagnetic (heat, light, radio) energy. Mostly these other forms of energy end up as heat in your house one way or another. Even mechanical energy exerted in your home ultimately becomes heat. For example, a fan moves air around, slightly heating the air. The "85% or greater efficiency" people speak of in home electronics generally refers to the power supply of a device, which takes your utility power (high voltage AC) and converts the utility power to low voltage DC sources more suitable to powering electronics. Once converted, for example, in your PC, the energy still ends up as heat - coming off the CPU, controllers, memory, HD, and so forth (instead of from the power supply). So, yes, your PC can act as a mild-mannered room heater. Don't worry about the small stuff and don't be fooled by silly statements made by people who try make environmentalists/ conservationists look like idiots - we're not.

One caveat - your central heating system may use natural gas or heating oil, which may cost less per unit of heat delivered than an equivalent unit of heat delivered via electrical energy, so if you have a LOT of phantom loads, you may be wasting money in the end, but probably not enough to fret about.

If you want to save money and save energy, open your frig a few times less per day, make sure your frig has good seals, insulate your home - fix weather seals on doors and windows, install double/triple pane windows, and when your incandescent bulbs go out, replace them with CF or LED bulbs.

[Saint Borlaug]

Thankyou whyisitso for the answer.

Am I right to say that the take-away is this:

During cold-weather when I'm heating my house, don't bother turning off appliances because any energy they use will ultimately been turned into heat (which I need anyway) - especially if they are from the same source (i.e. electric or natural gas).

During summer months its good to keep these devices off, since I would be wasting double energy to power these devices AND to cool their heat output with my A/C.

Is there anything wrong with the above?

[whyisitso]

Thankyou whyisitso for the answer.

Am I right to say that the take-away is this:

During cold-weather when I'm heating my house, don't bother turning off appliances because any energy they use will ultimately been turned into heat (which I need anyway) - especially if they are from the same source (i.e. electric or natural gas).

During summer months its good to keep these devices off, since I would be wasting double energy to power these devices AND to cool their heat output with my A/C.

Is there anything wrong with the above?

Nothing wrong there - you are right on all points.

[Asshat]

Nothing wrong there - you are right on all points.

Wouldn't a cost per btu analysis be the way to correctly answer this?

A friend of mine works for an electrical power supplier in Maine. She advocates shutting everything down because most of what is plugged in have no bearing on heat. LED/LCD for example consume a measurable amount of current, yet provide virtually no heat. (talking about power brick equiped electronics)

To simplify my comment, consider leaving on a 1500 watt hair dryer for 15 minutes. That equates to 375 Watt Hours for that period. But you've only produced about 9 BTU.

Granted no one is leaving on their hair dryers, but it's easy to see that there is a significant problem with efficiency.

Thus, if the issue with cost is avoided, leave everything on. It will help heat the home. But it will cost a hell of a lot more.

Everyone leaves the fridge on. The only appreciable heat there is behind the thing. :)

[Okiman]

I like to leave my hair drier on to dry out my boots after a long wet day:thumbup:

[DoctorP]

Wouldn't a cost per btu analysis be the way to correctly answer this?

A friend of mine works for an electrical power supplier in Maine. She advocates shutting everything down because most of what is plugged in have no bearing on heat. LED/LCD for example consume a measurable amount of current, yet provide virtually no heat. (talking about power brick equiped electronics)

To simplify my comment, consider leaving on a 1500 watt hair dryer for 15 minutes. That equates to 375 Watt Hours for that period. But you've only produced about 9 BTU.

Granted no one is leaving on their hair dryers, but it's easy to see that there is a significant problem with efficiency.

Thus, if the issue with cost is avoided, leave everything on. It will help heat the home. But it will cost a hell of a lot more.

Everyone leaves the fridge on. The only appreciable heat there is behind the thing. :)

you use a hair dryer?:scratchchin:

[whyisitso]

Wouldn't a cost per btu analysis be the way to correctly answer this?

A friend of mine works for an electrical power supplier in Maine. She advocates shutting everything down because most of what is plugged in have no bearing on heat. LED/LCD for example consume a measurable amount of current, yet provide virtually no heat. (talking about power brick equiped electronics)

To simplify my comment, consider leaving on a 1500 watt hair dryer for 15 minutes. That equates to 375 Watt Hours for that period. But you've only produced about 9 BTU.

Granted no one is leaving on their hair dryers, but it's easy to see that there is a significant problem with efficiency.

Thus, if the issue with cost is avoided, leave everything on. It will help heat the home. But it will cost a hell of a lot more.

Everyone leaves the fridge on. The only appreciable heat there is behind the thing. :)

The original question was whether or not small loads waste energy or simply contribute to warming the home in which they reside. The question was not about the significance of the heat, just if small loads were wasteful or not. And, since a central heating system is assumed to ALSO be contributing and also assumed to be useful (not wasteful), then the small loads are also not wasteful since both categories of load are helping heat the home in question.

Even your frig, which seems to greedily hoard heat near its backside heat exchange, nonetheless contributes to warming to the entire room/home in which it resides. There may be a sharp temperature gradient going from the heat exchange to your sofa, making it difficult to notice any difference in temperature at your sofa, but the room is still a bit warmer thanks to your frig.

It is true that those efficient CF and LED lights do not produce much heat at the bulb, but that gloriously efficient visible light they shower into your home is converted, nonetheless, into heat once that visible light is absorbed by a surface in your home (wall, furniture, etc.).

True - some light does escape through open windows, but that loss is really outside the scope and spirit of the original question. You could also argue that marginal increases in transmission loss associated with those phantom loads is wasteful and never recovered because such losses are physically manifested between the power generator and your home; but that, too, is outside the spirit of the original question and those losses are quite minuscule.

Whether the you convert electrical energy to heat via a central heater or using a hair dryer, you are nonetheless, heating your home. So, regardless of the rate of conversion, you are still dumping the heat into your room, and that is all good when it's cold out!

[Okiman]

If we look at the zeroth and more importanly second laws of thermodynamics, then yes. Heat is generated as waste and through convection is transmited through the air.

However, and what looks like most of us asumed, you are looking to use Gibbs Free Energy Law to create heat. This only works in a closed system, but in a room (typically an open system) there are external factors which cause the free energy to be lost. This is unless you place a lot of electronics into a room and let it ride until you get equalibrium in temperatures (see Zeroth Law) then the heating stops unlike a heater which can keep cranking it out.

[Saint Borlaug]

Thanks again whyisitso for clarifying my question, thats exactly what I was asking.


However, and what looks like most of us asumed, you are looking to use Gibbs Free Energy Law to create heat. This only works in a closed system, but in a room (typically an open system) there are external factors which cause the free energy to be lost. This is unless you place a lot of electronics into a room and let it ride until you get equalibrium in temperatures (see Zeroth Law) then the heating stops unlike a heater which can keep cranking it out.

Sure my home isn't a closed system, I lose heat through conduction through the walls. But I will heat my house to the same temperature, regardless of how I heat it, therefore losses will be equal.

And yes, there is price to consider, but if my central heating runs off the power grid just like my appliances then the cost shouldn't change.

The question is: Does all the energy my home appliances use ULTIMATELY turned into heat, which contribute to heating my house which I would have to heat anyway in the winter. Therefore, there is no point to turning off my appliances to conserve energy during cold weather because they are just helping my central heater (in a very small way).

See whyisitso original post on page 1 for why all the energy that enters the home is ultimately turned to heat. It sounds right to me, but can anyone dispute it?

[Asshat]

Whether the you convert electrical energy to heat via a central heater or using a hair dryer, you are nonetheless, heating your home. So, regardless of the rate of conversion, you are still dumping the heat into your room, and that is all good when it's cold out!

Your response is too simplistic. It completely ignores efficiency. The ability of a machine to convert wattage in to thermal units.

Certainly a single LED would heat up a room a millionth of a degree. But the efficiency in which it does that makes the benefits of leaving such devices powered to contribute to heat makes it wasteful.

Consider that even a digital sensor on a home heating unit will allow fluxuations of three degrees in a home.

Again, the key word is efficiency- or efficient use of wattage to create BTU's. It is not linear once you get past the essential wattage to BTU rate of 1KWH:3000 something BTU.

[whyisitso]

If we look at the zeroth and more importanly second laws of thermodynamics, then yes. Heat is generated as waste and through convection is transmited through the air.

However, and what looks like most of us asumed, you are looking to use Gibbs Free Energy Law to create heat. This only works in a closed system, but in a room (typically an open system) there are external factors which cause the free energy to be lost. This is unless you place a lot of electronics into a room and let it ride until you get equalibrium in temperatures (see Zeroth Law) then the heating stops unlike a heater which can keep cranking it out.

Okiman, that is some excellent jibberish you have there, but Gibbs Free Energy has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario of the original question; specifically, the system in question is not a closed system and that's the whole point of the question. Furthermore, Gibbs Free Energy simply characterizes a closed system and has nothing to do with the mechanism(s) of energy conversion in question. Being the stickler, I should also point out that, the 0th law of thermodynamics is irrelevant here too.

Sorry, you get a few points for effort, but none for technical accuracy.

[Asshat]

The question is: Does all the energy my home appliances use ULTIMATELY turned into heat, which contribute to heating my house which I would have to heat anyway in the winter. Therefore, there is no point to turning off my appliances to conserve energy during cold weather because they are just helping my central heater (in a very small way).

The answer can only be applied if the following parameters are known:

1.Total wattage of appliances remaining on.
2.Total wattage required in terms of BTU to maintain specific temperature in the structure.
3.Parameters of thermostat in degrees plus or minus a desired setting.

Or, just leave that hair dryer on all night with your thermostat set and count wattage used in the home, and compare it with the next night with the hair dryer off.

You'll see a huge increase in wattage used between the two nights, even with an outside temperature difference.

[whyisitso]

Your response is too simplistic. It completely ignores efficiency. The ability of a machine to convert wattage in to thermal units.

Certainly a single LED would heat up a room a millionth of a degree. But the efficiency in which it does that makes the benefits of leaving such devices powered to contribute to heat makes it wasteful.

Consider that even a digital sensor on a home heating unit will allow fluxuations of three degrees in a home.

Again, the key word is efficiency- or efficient use of wattage to create BTU's. It is not linear once you get past the essential wattage to BTU rate of 1KWH:3000 something BTU.

The question had nothing to do with efficiency or speed of heating a home. The question had everything to do with whether or not the energy consumed by small electrical loads ultimately ends up as heat, which contributes to warming the room (even in the slightest). The answer to that original question is YES, the electrical energy generally and ultimately ends up as heat. And this heat is Useful, regardless of how little heat is being generated in a given device.

For example - if you have a small appliance that dissipates 1W all the time, then that appliance is contributing a tiny bit of heat to the room. Very little compared to the 10kW central heater, but that 1W is NOT wasted heat. The 1W ends up heating the same volume of air as the central heater, so who cares if you leave that 1W load plugged in or not, right? Just because a heat source is small and indirect doesn't mean that it is wasteful.

So, I wouldn't try to heat my home by leaving power bricks plugged in all over the place, nor would I also wouldn't waste time unplugging stuff if I'm heating my home at the same time.

Don't be confused by the magnitudes involved, conservation of energy ALWAYS applies in all systems (at least all systems we'll ever see).

By the way, BTUs always map directly to Watt-hours (1 kilowatt hour : 3414 BTU) and vice versa, and that relationship is always perfectly linear all the way down to zero. Please, do re-visit the definitions of each.

[Asshat]

The question had nothing to do with efficiency or speed of heating a home. The question had everything to do with whether or not the energy consumed by small electrical loads ultimately ends up as heat, which contributes to warming the room (even in the slightest). The answer to that original question is YES, the electrical energy generally and ultimately ends up as heat. And this heat is Useful, regardless of how little heat is being generated in a given device.

Here is the question asked:

The question is: Does all the energy my home appliances use ULTIMATELY turned into heat, which contribute to heating my house which I would have to heat anyway in the winter. Therefore, there is no point to turning off my appliances to conserve energy during cold weather because they are just helping my central heater (in a very small way).

For example - if you have a small appliance that dissipates 1W all the time, then that appliance is contributing a tiny bit of heat to the room. Very little compared to the 10kW central heater, but that 1W is NOT wasted heat. The 1W ends up heating the same volume of air as the central heater, so who cares if you leave that 1W load plugged in or not, right? Just because a heat source is small and indirect doesn't mean that it is wasteful.

Yet it is, as I have tried to point out, and which is discussed in numerous papers by other electronics professionals.

So, I wouldn't try to heat my home by leaving power bricks plugged in all over the place, nor would I also wouldn't waste time unplugging stuff if I'm heating my home at the same time.

Then please, leave your hair dryer on. The study of brick power consumption is fairly new. I invite you to research this and see what some of the studies have shown concerning long-term costs.

Don't be confused by the magnitudes involved, conservation of energy ALWAYS applies in all systems (at least all systems we'll ever see).

Eh, I am not confused. Magnitudes vs. efficiency is the only way to answer the question.

[QUOTE=whyisitso;179851] By the way, BTUs always map directly to Watt-hours (1 kilowatt hour : 3414 BTU) and vice versa, and that relationship is always perfectly linear all the way down to zero. Please, do re-visit the definitions of each.

Not when it comes to the efficient use of those KWH to HEAT a home. Sure we can say a calorie is a calorie or do a lot more Google searches for sites containing power distribution calculators.

Bottom line is the OP asked about heating a home, not linear conversions. In any discussion you will find concerning this topic, you will always find a discussion on efficiency. If you want to maintain that a millionth of a degree heat wave in a home is the answer the OP was looking for, fine. I concede. It is not my definition of (key word) CONTRIBUTE. But then someone farting in the home provides much more heat than leaving the stereo on standby.

[whyisitso]

here is the question asked:

Not when it comes to the efficient use of those kwh to heat a home. Sure we can say a calorie is a calorie or do a lot more google searches for sites containing power distribution calculators.

Bottom line is the op asked about heating a home, not linear conversions. In any discussion you will find concerning this topic, you will always find a discussion on efficiency. If you want to maintain that a millionth of a degree heat wave in a home is the answer the op was looking for, fine. I concede. It is not my definition of (key word) contribute. But then someone farting in the home provides much more heat than leaving the stereo on standby.

Again, the question was simply whether or not small loads contribute to heating the home. And, I'm afraid, the answer is still YES.

Look at it this way: if the central heater is cranked up, ever so slightly, by say 1W, then each hour approximately 1 watt-hour of additional heating is delivered to the home. That additional 1 watt-hour adds additional heating regardless of the baseline amount, 1kW, 100kW, whatever. So, does it matter if that extra watt comes from the central heater or a power brick? Both ways, the benefit of that extra tiny bit of heating is delivered to the home.

I don't dispute the notion that the average home has quite a bit of electrical energy going to phantom loads - but getting back to the question: is that energy going to a useful purpose, and the answer is YES in the context of this question (I'm heating the home anyway).

I think we've beaten this poor horse to death ...

[P_chan]

Again, the question was simply whether or not small loads contribute to heating the home. And, I'm afraid, the answer is still YES.

So are you trying to tell me that I should rig up some rudimentary heating system utilizing the heat this is blown out through my laptop's exhaust vent?:rolleyes:

[whyisitso]

So are you trying to tell me that I should rig up some rudimentary heating system utilizing the heat this is blown out through my laptop's exhaust vent?:rolleyes:

Ummmm... No.

(Wham! Kicking the dead horse.)

[Okiman]

Your right my bad. After 15 years I guess it is time to start looking things up. Should of stuck with the first and second laws.:thumbup:

Okiman, that is some excellent jibberish you have there, but Gibbs Free Energy has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario of the original question; specifically, the system in question is not a closed system and that's the whole point of the question. Furthermore, Gibbs Free Energy simply characterizes a closed system and has nothing to do with the mechanism(s) of energy conversion in question. Being the stickler, I should also point out that, the 0th law of thermodynamics is irrelevant here too.

Sorry, you get a few points for effort, but none for technical accuracy.

[retributionnk]

Wow. This argument has been semantically raped in a way that only the term 'gay marriage' can relate to. Let me try to understand here:
My random thought of the day-

We are always told to shut off lights and appliances and some people would have us go as far as unplug these devices.

But if that wasted energy is just being turned into waste heat, and if it is winter and we are heating our houses anyways, wouldn't that waste heat be equally useful?

No, According to Asshat's argument of the lack of efficiency in heating output by your 'standby loads' (aka your Microwave's clock, TV or computer standby, etc etc).

In other words, wouldn't all our electrical devices act as low-output space heaters, thus sparing the central heating unit some work? :scratchchin:

Yes, according to both whyisitso and Asshat. Even if it is only a tiny bit, and possible being more expensive and/or inefficient.


Right? :scratchchin:

[whyisitso]

No, According to Asshat's argument of the lack of efficiency in heating output by your 'standby loads' (aka your Microwave's clock, TV or computer standby, etc etc).

Right? :scratchchin:

I didn't want to waste time bringing this up, but ... AH's assertion that the low-load heat sources are somehow less efficient is actually not true. Electrical energy converted to heat is electrical energy converted to heat, pure and simple. Where that conversion occurs, however, does make a difference.

As such, central heaters are typically less efficient per watt in delivering useful heat to a living space than low load devices because a central heater has to generate heat in a room that doesn't need heating (basement, appliance closet). A practical central heater has imperfect insulation, so heat is wasted to the basement; the central heater also has to run fans, which take energy, and only some of the heat generated by the fan(s) actually ends up in the heat delivered to the living space. In sharp contrast, low load devices can dump their heat directly into the living space, and That is extremely efficient.

I would recommend a little physics/thermo refresher for anyone still puzzled at this point...

[Asshat]

I would recommend a little physics/thermo refresher for anyone still puzzled at this point...

Most here haven't taken the course, or spent a lifetime working with electronics.

To clarify, since you are still whipping this horse:

AH's assertion that the low-load heat sources are somehow less efficient is actually not true.

They are less efficient AT HEATING A HOME. (Which "again" is what the OP addressed. And that statement supercedes and earlier one you made when discussing KWH to BTU coefficients being linear.

Why waste time on refreshers (or Googling the ratio of BTU:KW) and go ahead and do the practical test I outlined earlier:

Leave the hair dryer on one day, off the next, thermostat set the same, OAT be damned. Check the meter. This is what the OP was about, not a linear discussion on simple ratios.

Don't make me use my "pedant" word again. LOL.

I still say serving the family copious amounts of fiber will have a more dramatic effect than leaving on the bricks.

Peace out.

[Blues]

I'd just like to mention that the more you leave your appliances & electronics on (NOT STANDBY); the quicker they wear out.

Example: common light bulb, monitors, hard drives.

So the money I save on heat, I spend on replacing lightbulbs??

[whyisitso]

They are less efficient AT HEATING A HOME.

The word you need to use to accurately state your assertion in this context is "effective," not "efficient." ... I will spare both of us the pain in explaining why your choice of words matters here. But I will point out that the original question was unrelated to how _effective_ the small loads may or may not be at providing an important amount of heating. So, while your assertion that small loads will not suffice in heating a home is typically true, your assertion is nonetheless irrelevant to the original question.

Anyway, when a discussion degenerates into splitting semantic hairs it is MY time to step out. The original question was answered to the satisfaction of its author; I'm done.

[Saint Borlaug]

Look at the trouble I stirred up! :scared:

Zeromaint has a very good point - I think keeping devices off extends their service life. (or maybe frequent on/offs cause more damage?)

Asshat - I like your experiment. Let me rephrase my original question:

The hair dryer and the central heating unit are run off the same powergrid (i.e. equivalent cost per kWh)

Both the hair dryer and central heating unit is run long enough to heat my home by, arbitrarily, 1 degree. Assume same starting temperature and outside temperature.

The question to you is: If the kWh of heating by the hair dryer is greater than the heating unit then that would mean that the excess kWh is not being converted to heat. Conservation of energy... where does excess go?

I hope this clarifies.

[Saint Borlaug]

Keep in mind, as whyisitso stated, that the mechanical energy of the hair dryer is stirs the air which heats it slightly, and that the electrical resistance in the wires and circuits of the hair dryer is converted into heat.

You talk about efficiencies. For example, an automobile is 15% efficient. That means 15% is converted to motion and the rest is lost as waste heat.
In this case, it wouldn't be "waste heat" because I need to heat my house anyway.

[Asshat]

The question to you is: If the kWh of heating by the hair dryer is greater than the heating unit then that would mean that the excess kWh is not being converted to heat. Conservation of energy... where does excess go?

I hope this clarifies.

The hair dryer will not contribute enough heat to have an impact on the primary heating source- the furnace.

Whyisitso is totally correct in that anything using energy in the home will contribute to heat generation. But that contribution will not be felt by the system used to heat the home in the first place.

Example: Your thermostat is set to 68F. However there is a margin of error on your thermostat of two degrees plus or minus of that setting.

If leaving your other appliances on would generate even one degree, your heater would not turn on as often. But they wont- unless your home is the size of a closet.

You asked about mold in homes here. Long ago, we used to use 40W light bulbs in closets to keep out the mold. That single bulb did heat the closet. But it wont heat a room to the point where your thermostat can detect the temperature change.

So if you left ten of these lights on, using 4000 watts, you "may" get a temperature increase sufficient to heat the home enough to prevent your heater from turning on as often to maintain the desired 68F.

The parameters for that ability have to do with the size of the area, the insulation of the area/outside temperature. And to determine the value of leaving those lights on, you would need to compare the actual rating of your electric furnace with that of your lights.

Electric furnaces are from 5000 watts to 30,000 watts. Usually the coils are in banks of 5000 watts each, and the furnace energizes only the coils needed to maintain temperature.

In a 1000 foot home, that 5000 watt coil bank would be enough to maintain temperature if the weather were mild enough. In a home that small, using those ten 40 watt bulbs might actually contribute.

But the bulbs are using 4000 watts all the time. They are not shutting off when the temperature gets to 68F. The furnace does.

Because of the myriad quotients involved in your question, it is not possible to arrive at a specific answer. This is why I recommended the hair dryer test.

Last point here. Compare the heat output of a 32 Watt fluorescent bulb with that of a 40 Watt incandescent bulb. They use nearly the same power, but the heat they give off is vastly different. This is why the linear BTU to Wattage formula can not apply as it relates to efficiency for heating only. That 32 watt fluorescent is giving out a lot more lumens per watt however, which is what it is designed to do.

[Blues]

Leaving your PS3 or 360 on is not a good idea as it could burn your house down!
http://www.destructoid.com/ps3-burns-down-guys-house-28254.phtml

Enough already....

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

[DoctorP]

meh...I use natural gas...cheaper than electricity in my city, so I just put the oven on 500 and leave the door open!:rolleyes:

[danielwagner]

meh...I use natural gas...cheaper than electricity in my city, so I just put the oven on 500 and leave the door open!:rolleyes:

Are you using a CO detector?