Marines and Taxi Drivers (Part 19,875)

[afansi]

From Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan

One time they said fire on all taxi cabs because the enemy was using them for transportation ... One of the snipers replied back, "Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxi cabs?" The lieutenant colonel responded, "You heard me trooper, fire on all taxicabs." After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."

[Carl]

Um...ok...you want us to do something about it?

[afansi]

Um...ok...you want us to do something about it?

Disobey orders, mutiny, desert, etc

[DoctorP]

From Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan

One time they said fire on all taxi cabs because the enemy was using them for transportation ... One of the snipers replied back, "Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxi cabs?" The lieutenant colonel responded, "You heard me trooper, fire on all taxicabs." After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."

If you are going to provide excerpts of material, please provide a link to said material for verification.

[moron]

http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier The homepage
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/09/17-10 One homepage with the except in question

[The Sword]

From Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan

One time they said fire on all taxi cabs because the enemy was using them for transportation ... One of the snipers replied back, "Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxi cabs?" The lieutenant colonel responded, "You heard me trooper, fire on all taxicabs." After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."


From The Biography of The Sword

In the year of our lord 1881, The Sword, armed with only dental floss, souvenir bahamas toenail clippers, and a rock hard erection, defeated an entire brigade of invading velociraptor dinosaurs from over running a firm base in the city formerly known as constantinople.

[The Sword]

Afansi, what is your ethnic background, im doing a survey. thanks.

[uriel]

hmmm afansi... you pull an excerpt from a website whose sole agenda is to be against the war. furthermore you pull an excerpt from a story that is so far out there that it makes human teleportation look plausible, and you want us to take it at face value? try again, but next time, put some effort into it.

[Crazysix]

facking africant....only thing this tool does is stir up shit.....funny though all this talk of peace and his own continent is a septic tank that needs cleaning

[Crazysix]

From Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan

One time they said fire on all taxi cabs because the enemy was using them for transportation ... One of the snipers replied back, "Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxi cabs?" The lieutenant colonel responded, "You heard me trooper, fire on all taxicabs." After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."

hey afansi join your brothers , drive a cab...please for me

[Crazysix]

Disobey orders, mutiny, desert, etc

shoot straighter and faster!!!!!!

[Old Timer]

If you are going to provide excerpts of material, please provide a link to said material for verification.

Yep................ditto.

[Old Timer]

:-|:-|From Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan

One time they said fire on all taxi cabs because the enemy was using them for transportation ... One of the snipers replied back, "Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxi cabs?" The lieutenant colonel responded, "You heard me trooper, fire on all taxicabs." After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."


:mir31:

[Muku]

Damn once again the afansi hit and miss.....

Folks, for those that remember here anyway, does the name The Prosecutor or his nick "TP" ring a bell?

Shit dont let this crap get to ya, all he is doing is trying to get you fired up. Ya'll know what is what, why let his crap get to you?

[Old Timer]

http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier

You guys can find the quote, or hit & miss..........

[Old Timer]

Damn once again the afansi hit and miss.....

Folks, for those that remember here anyway, does the name The Prosecutor or his nick "TP" ring a bell?

Shit dont let this crap get to ya, all he is doing is trying to get you fired up. Ya'll know what is what, why let his crap get to you?

You think..............????????????:scratchchin:

[Crazysix]

hmmm afansi... you pull an excerpt from a website whose sole agenda is to be against the war. furthermore you pull an excerpt from a story that is so far out there that it makes human teleportation look plausible, and you want us to take it at face value? try again, but next time, put some effort into it.

lmao and when was the last time a marine was called"trooper"????? damn at least make your title and and subjects of thread match......pfffftttt educated idiots

[Muku]

You think..............????????????:scratchchin:
Actually no, at least TP had more class.

[Crazysix]

Actually no, at least TP had more class.

what?????!!!!????? you mean they arent one in the same????like ebony and ivory??:smile4:

[vvloc]

I find the response to the OP rather surprising. The poster is a VERY infrequent poster, so if anyone wants to shoot the messenger, I, who am often here, will take the heat. In reality, I 1ST brought this group to the attention of the forum, when I posted this:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80503&postcount=1

a day before the testimony began, nearly 8 months ago. I spent the whole weekend listening to every minute of testimony - then I listened a 2ND time to the archives, because I found the story so compelling.

I never discussed the events further, as the single response to my post showed that no-one here thought the event of interest - a while later, the concept of the drop-weapon custom was discussed, and some admitted that they'd done so. That was the extent of discussion on this matter.

Why the OP would bring this event up now, I don't know; but why the kind of response I see, I, also, don't quite understand.

To characterize it as an antiwar website is a little superfluous, as the group name makes their mission clear; Iraq Veterans Against The War (They also are VERY active in fighting for veterans rights, particularly in the area of the inadequate health-care provided for so many returning vets).

These vets, both retired and ACTIVE military not only testified to what they saw and did, but also, PUBLICLY offered to repeat their testimony under oath before Congress.

Are they any less part of the band of brothers because they testified guided by their conscience concerning things they thought to be against us military tradition, values, and rules?

With the war still massively opposed by the majority of the american people, why would there be so much disinterest and scorn concerning these eyewitness accounts?

[uriel]

From Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan

One time they said fire on all taxi cabs because the enemy was using them for transportation ... One of the snipers replied back, "Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxi cabs?" The lieutenant colonel responded, "You heard me trooper, fire on all taxicabs." After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."

sounds like it was taken out of context to further an agenda. but hey, who am i to say?

[Crazysix]

I find the response to the OP rather surprising. The poster is a VERY infrequent poster, so if anyone wants to shoot the messenger, I, who am often here, will take the heat. In reality, I 1ST brought this group to the attention of the forum, when I posted this:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80503&postcount=1

a day before the testimony began, nearly 8 months ago. I spent the whole weekend listening to every minute of testimony - then I listened a 2ND time to the archives, because I found the story so compelling.

I never discussed the events further, as the single response to my post showed that no-one here thought the event of interest - a while later, the concept of the drop-weapon custom was discussed, and some admitted that they'd done so. That was the extent of discussion on this matter.

Why the OP would bring this event up now, I don't know; but why the kind of response I see, I, also, don't quite understand.

To characterize it as an antiwar website is a little superfluous, as the group name makes their mission clear; Iraq Veterans Against The War (They also are VERY active in fighting for veterans rights, particularly in the area of the inadequate health-care provided for so many returning vets).

These vets, both retired and ACTIVE military not only testified to what they saw and did, but also, PUBLICLY offered to repeat their testimony under oath before Congress.

Are they any less part of the band of brothers because they testified guided by their conscience concerning things they thought to be against us military tradition, values, and rules?

With the war still massively opposed by the majority of the american people, why would there be so much disinterest and scorn concerning these eyewitness accounts?
it is war people will die, I dont give the OP any respect because of his blatant disrespect for Americans and even more so my brothers and sisters in arms. Why does he not post a pleas to help that shit hole africa, his home land then maybe I would give a feck....typical kifar quick to blame the world for his problem instead of trying to work and change the situation. BY his own admission unless he is lying that his father is a african warlord, hell do yourself a favor and kill him....and work to save your people. As I have said before and truely mean this Africa and slide to the bottom of the ocean and drag all her prodical sons and daughters with her and we would be a much better world, all he does is come here and try to start crap just like that bitch TP and that **** Rachel..........Now if you label me as a racist so be it, but try again,:army::army:


Now the reason I groaned you is not for what you have said...it is because the OP love to run in drop a bomb or 2 and run out and give little or no explanation why!!!

[vvloc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUFYWOViSk

[Crazysix]

damn vv, you seem determined to defend this piece of shit.....I give these crybaby ass vets some credit at least they served their country............not run to okinawa and try to pick a fight or bring to light another countries problems...without ever mentioning his native jungles or should I say shit hole's issues. Just seems to me that this monkey is throwing too many bananas

[vvloc]

Now the reason I groaned you is not for what you have said...it is because the OP love to run in drop a bomb or 2 and run out and give little or no explanation why!!!

I said NOTHING in defense of the poster - in fact, I questioned why he would post this now; however if this makes you feel that I deserve a groan, I'm really not going to dispute your right to do so or your motivation for doing so.

[Crazysix]

I said NOTHING in defense of the poster - in fact, I questioned why he would post this now; however if this makes you feel that I deserve a groan, I'm really not going to dispute your right to do so or your motivation for doing so.
I owe you an apology I had to reread your post...my bad!!!:crying:

[vvloc]

damn vv, you seem determined to defend this piece of shit.....I give these crybaby ass vets some credit at least they served their country............not run to okinawa and try to pick a fight or bring to light another countries problems...without ever mentioning his native jungles or should I say shit hole's issues. Just seems to me that this monkey is throwing too many bananas

I was the original poster of the IVAW - I defend and honor THEM for their commitment. I don't see how in any way, that I have tried to defend the poster.

I think it takes real fortitude for an active duty military member to participate in such a forum (and there were many) - it is to them whom I especially am grateful

[vvloc]

I owe you an apology I had to reread your post...my bad!!!:crying:

Np problem, C6.

[The Sword]

actually, the title says "soldier" so the marine thing is out the window.

this is the reason i like car forums so much more. there is an agenda and a common ground, unlike this free for all.

[Crazysix]

you can always leave here and go to your car forums...

i am sure no one will miss you here.

no pimp in dealing with this OP, sword is right

[OtisPMerriweather]

I don't mind the unrestricted range of topics...sometimes dummies come here, try to stir up controversy, and get embarrassed. They all leave after a while, but while they are here, nothing entertains me more.

[xXNothingnessXx]

During my first deployment, one of my friends was on tower watch and saw a taxi driving by with 3 people inside. As they got closer the guy in the back seat fired an RPG out the window from about 100m away. The RPG didn't come close to hitting anything on base but thier taxi caught fire and ran off the road. Moments later they had to go collect the remains of the dumbass in the back seat....thats my story of Marines and taxi cabs.

[DougP]

All off topic comments have been moved here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9384)

[moron]

It's very interesting - until afansi had opened this topic, I hadn't really pondered how similar the Okinawan and Iraqi situations were. The Okinawans, on the other hand, seem keenly aware of this.

Okinawans currently follow closely the negotiations over a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) between US and Iraq authorities, noting that the draft agreement there includes something unprecedented between the US and any other country -- a provision for US forces to be tried in Iraqi courts for any breaches of Iraqi law committed while off base and not engaged on joint US-Iraqi missions. Okinawans wonder why Iraq can insist on provisions that the Japanese government has shown little interest in demanding. They note too that Iraq is insisting on an absolute withdrawal date for all US troops, regardless of conditions on the ground, and wonder when the Government of Japan, more than six decades after the beginning of the occupation by US forces, will adopt a comparable position.

Taken from http://japanfocus.org/_Sakurai_Kunitoshi-Okinawan_Bases__the_United_States_and_Environmenta l_Destruction__Japanese_text_available_

[Zim the Invader]

I'm failing to see the problem. Is it my fault they were cab drivers? Or perhaps it's my fault so many cabs were stolen and not reported. Or could I be responsible for the actions of both extremests and military members alike? For the terrorist SOBs you get nothing. For the inocents I'll shed a tear. But you only get the one.:crying: After all, the reason so many terrorists were using taxis as weapons was due to that country allowing such a large terroist population to congregate there. If said country would have stood up for its own innocents we wouldn't have needed to be there to begin with. Then non combatants would be less likely to be getting harmed by accident now.

On a personal note, I would rather put down every man woman and child in that area than allow one of my fellow countrymen be harmed in any way. By allowing the area to become infested with extremests to begin with, the whole country passively accepts all consequences that come with clearing it out. If you rented a house that got termites and you said nothing to the landlord, you can't reasonably expect to be free of responsibility when it comes to repair costs. The longer you wait, the worse the damage, the higher the cost or repair. I'm taking back my tear. :army:

[vvloc]

that country allowing such a large terroist population to congregate there.

You do know that we're talking about Iraq here, don't you - got ANYTHING meaningful to back up your contention of "such a large terroist (sic) population?"

[Crazysix]

t's very interesting - until afansi had opened this topic, I hadn't really pondered how similar the Okinawan and Iraqi situations were. The Okinawans, on the other hand, seem keenly aware of this.

Okinawans currently follow closely the negotiations over a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) between US and Iraq authorities, noting that the draft agreement there includes something unprecedented between the US and any other country -- a provision for US forces to be tried in Iraqi courts for any breaches of Iraqi law committed while off base and not engaged on joint US-Iraqi missions. Okinawans wonder why Iraq can insist on provisions that the Japanese government has shown little interest in demanding. They note too that Iraq is insisting on an absolute withdrawal date for all US troops, regardless of conditions on the ground, and wonder when the Government of Japan, more than six decades after the beginning of the occupation by US forces, will adopt a comparable position.


and when okinawan taxi drivers start acting as mobile IEDS or ferrying attackers...I will make sure I pop one them a new asshole too:smile4: hey dumb kid its not too late to become a taxi driver, I heard they have alot of openings good pay but employment longevity sucks

[sktmfy]

For the terrorist SOBs you get nothing. For the inocents I'll shed a tear.

On a personal note, I would rather put down every man woman and child in that area than allow one of my fellow countrymen be harmed in any way. By allowing the area to become infested with extremests to begin with, the whole country passively accepts all consequences that come with clearing it out. :

this is mainly what i agree with you on.

[vvloc]

zim...

do you realize what you just proposed....

and do you realize that mainly our occupation of iraq is what caused the massive influx of terrorists....

before we occupied they had dictatorship.. albeit a brutal one....

but i dont recall a whole lot of terrorist activity going down in iraq...

you do realize there is a difference between a terrorist and an insurgent... dont you??

Thank goodness that someone understands my point, which is exactly the same point the 1400 IVAW members are making - it is absolutely stunning that in a militarily dominated board, virtually NO-ONE is or was willing to even take two minutes to listen to what these vets and active duty servicemen are saying.

When Mike Totten in tear filled eyes tears up his commendation letter from general petraeus in public, as he recounts his activities in Iraq, that is a truly heroic deed.

But virtually nobody is willing to take time from their busy JU forum demands to even listen to the Man.

[OtisPMerriweather]

I'm failing to see the problem. Is it my fault they were cab drivers? Or perhaps it's my fault so many cabs were stolen and not reported. Or could I be responsible for the actions of both extremests and military members alike? For the terrorist SOBs you get nothing. For the inocents I'll shed a tear. But you only get the one.:crying: After all, the reason so many terrorists were using taxis as weapons was due to that country allowing such a large terroist population to congregate there. If said country would have stood up for its own innocents we wouldn't have needed to be there to begin with. Then non combatants would be less likely to be getting harmed by accident now.

On a personal note, I would rather put down every man woman and child in that area than allow one of my fellow countrymen be harmed in any way. By allowing the area to become infested with extremests to begin with, the whole country passively accepts all consequences that come with clearing it out. If you rented a house that got termites and you said nothing to the landlord, you can't reasonably expect to be free of responsibility when it comes to repair costs. The longer you wait, the worse the damage, the higher the cost or repair. I'm taking back my tear. :army:

I'm taking it you've never been over yet. If you had, you'd know that most of the people we're fighting over there are FOREIGN extremists. And a large number of them came to Iraq as a result of our inhumane treatment of POWs and wanton disregard for human lives that don't happen to be American such as what you display here. What makes an American life so much more valuable than an Iraqi one?

If you had been to Iraq or Afghanistan and moseyed outside the wire once or twice, and had to pick up PIECES of people after a firefight in order to determine if you'd killed a HVT or not, you would not say such ignorant shit.

[uriel]

i can see how he could be upset that these Iraqi's are allowing FOREIGN fighters to come in and fight without raising a finger to stop them. I can also see what everyone else is saying, but what I can't see is how so many look right past the fact that the locals are allowing the foreign fighters to come in and do whatever the hell they want, and then act surprised when not everyone is happy about it.

[OtisPMerriweather]

i can see how he could be upset that these Iraqi's are allowing FOREIGN fighters to come in and fight without raising a finger to stop them. I can also see what everyone else is saying, but what I can't see is how so many look right past the fact that the locals are allowing the foreign fighters to come in and do whatever the hell they want, and then act surprised when not everyone is happy about it.

WHO exactly is allowing foreign fighters to come in? America is supposedly the most powerful country in the world, and we can't keep illegal aliens and drugs from South America from coming in...are the "locals" in America allowing these things to happen??

So if America, (who by the way is responsible for Iraq's security as long as we are occupiers) can't keep foreigners and drugs out, how is a failed state like Iraq supposed to accomplish that task?? For the record, there's only TWO countries bordering the U.S., both supposedly allies....how many countries border Iraq??

[uriel]

i am not talking about going all wild west on them. the locals keep their mouths shut and refuse to turn them in or speak out en masse. they are quietly complicit and for a people who say they want their country back and all FOREIGN fighers out, they sure don't show it.

[vvloc]

when you go around advocating the murder of innocents.. women, children, elderly, non combatants...

you are no better than the enemy.. no better then the terrorists and insurgents.... those american servicemen and women who commit heinous acts against innocent iraqi's or afgani's deserve to punishment just as severe as those who who commit terrorist attacks against innocent civilians...

i am sorry.. after having fought in this war on terror... i do not like many of the tactics of the enemy.... but the insurgents and the terrorists are the enemy... period.. so if i have to pop one of them in the face will i shed a tear...? no... cause its me or them.. but if i was to somehow murder innocents.. for no other good reason than they happen to be iraqi...

if you are the type who would knowingly do that... you are a ******* coward..... and a ******* disgrace to the US and all the honorable men and women who have served, fought, and died for a concept bigger than just our country.... FREEDOM

What happened here is akin to someone coming to your door of your home, kicking it in, and telling you to surrender the 65 tons of cocaine (WMD) you have stashed in your basement. But there is no cocaine there, and you tell him so.

So he asks you why you kicked out the DEA inspectors (UN inspecters) who were sent to certify whether or not you had cocaine, and you tell him that you NEVER kicked out ANY DEA inspectors . . . the reality is the DEA left when this guy started lobbing tear-gas grenades into your house (shock and awe) , so he plants a nickel bag on you (drop-gun policy), calls you a drug dealer (terrorist) and hauls your butt to jail.

And as recently as 2 days ago, bush with a straight face continued the "BIG LIE" on ABC news

"Bush answered, “Yes, because Saddam Hussein was unwilling to let the inspectors go in to determine whether or not the U.N. resolutions were being upheld.”

Of course, the historical record is clear: Hussein did let U.N. arms inspectors into Iraq in the fall of 2002 to search any site of their choosing. Their travels around Iraq in white vans were recorded daily by the international news media, as they found no evidence that Iraq had WMD stockpiles, even at sites targeted by U.S. intelligence.

Hussein and his government also declared publicly that they didn’t possess WMD, including providing the United Nations a 12,000-page declaration on Dec. 7, 2002, explaining how Iraq’s stocks of chemical and biological weapons had been destroyed in the 1990s."

http://www.trueblueliberal.com/2008/12/02/bush-still-lies-about-iraqi-inspections/

AND it wasn't until the famous bush statement telling Hussein that he had 48 hours to get out of Iraq that the u.n. inspectors left.

[vvloc]

I'm taking it you've never been over yet. If you had, you'd know that most of the people we're fighting over there are FOREIGN extremists. And a large number of them came to Iraq as a result of our inhumane treatment of POWs and wanton disregard for human lives that don't happen to be American such as what you display here. What makes an American life so much more valuable than an Iraqi one?

If you had been to Iraq or Afghanistan and moseyed outside the wire once or twice, and had to pick up PIECES of people after a firefight in order to determine if you'd killed a HVT or not, you would not say such ignorant shit.

I agree with your points, as usual, Otis, but you have "Iraq and Afghanistan" in the same sentence, and this is where I must make a point. From what we know the 9/11 plan was conceived in Afghanistan and carried out with 16 of the 19 perpetrators being saudi's, so how in the h*ll, did we allow ourselves to be lied into Iraq, where the overwhelming bulk of ~4200 servicemen have given their lives.

AND now, the same people who brought us into Iraq are claiming that, in truth, it is Iran that is the center of terrorism in the region.

And on and on it goes - ("and so it goes." - K. Vonnegut)

First there was Daniel Ortega, the next hitler, then begat Manuel Noriega, the next hitler, then begat Quaddafi, the next Hitler, then begat Ayatollah Khomeini, the next hitler, then begat Saddam. the next hitler, then begat Ahmadinejad, the next hitler . . . years and years of lies, and lives and dollars squandered. . . and all the while we put up with having the 27th best medical system in the world (at the highest cost/per capita), a crumbling infrastructure, an educational "system" that is in ruins, and vets from many campaigns that are denied crucial medical services for wounds incurred in defense of the country.

[vvloc]

zim...

do you realize what you just proposed....

and do you realize that mainly our occupation of iraq is what caused the massive influx of terrorists....

before we occupied they had dictatorship.. albeit a brutal one....

but i dont recall a whole lot of terrorist activity going down in iraq...

you do realize there is a difference between a terrorist and an insurgent... dont you??

There was no terrorist activity going on there, PJ - the country was trying to recover from years of the blockade in place during the Clinton administration which blocked humanitarian goods like foodstuffs and medicines, and to which secretary of state madeline albright claimed the deaths of 500,000 civilians during this period was acceptable.

[vvloc]

i am not talking about going all wild west on them. the locals keep their mouths shut and refuse to turn them in or speak out en masse. they are quietly complicit and for a people who say they want their country back and all FOREIGN fighers out, they sure don't show it.

After 5 and 1/2 years of an unsanctioned and illegal war by any standards (our Constitution, the Geneva Accords), how do you expect them to show, more than they already have that they want AMERICA out. They are not complicit, we (you and I) are complicit.

[uriel]

which is why they signed that new agreement, or didn't you notice? they didn't sign saying they wanted us out now, they want us out in what, 3 years? they sure do want us gone now.

[vvloc]

which is why they signed that new agreement, or didn't you notice? they didn't sign saying they wanted us out now, they want us out in what, 3 years? they sure do want us gone now.

I guess you haven't been following the arm-twisting that has accompanied this "agreement" that has been in dispute for over a year, this Iraqi government that signed the agreement was as close to an u.s. installed government as you can get. Go back and read the events of the day of the election, and you will see how many Iraqis were disenfranchised from that "democratic" election.

[uriel]

okay, plan b. the hell with the middle east, don't buy their oil, don't have any contact with them, let them just do what they want because it's their country regardless of who they decide to oppress, kill, whatever. seems like that's what so many people want. is it? if we're involved, we're meddlers, if we're not, we're heartless. you can't have both. so tell me, what should we do?

[DougP]

I guess you haven't been following the arm-twisting that has accompanied this "agreement" that has been in dispute for over a year, this Iraqi government that signed the agreement was as close to an u.s. installed government as you can get. Go back and read the events of the day of the election, and you will see how many Iraqis were disenfranchised from that "democratic" election.

Not to mention the current Prime Minister of Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki, is a long time member of the Islamic Dawa party. The Dawa party is responsible for the 1983 bombings of the American and French embassies and several other targets, domestic and foreign, in Kuwait. Another member of this so called "Moderates Front" that I highly doubt are the true voice of the average Iraqi citizen. Not as much of a representation of Iraqis as they are another puppet regime.

[vvloc]

Not to mention the current Prime Minister of Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki, is a long time member of the Islamic Dawa party. The Dawa party is responsible for the 1983 bombings of the American and French embassies and several other targets, domestic and foreign, in Kuwait. Another member of this so called "Moderates Front" that I highly doubt are the true voice of the average Iraqi citizen. Not as much of a representation of Iraqis as they are another puppet regime.

Doug, you really are too much - when it comes to dogged determination to get to the very bottom of things, YOU are second to none.

[uriel]

i learn something new every day. i didn't know that.

[OtisPMerriweather]

okay, plan b. the hell with the middle east, don't buy their oil, don't have any contact with them, let them just do what they want because it's their country regardless of who they decide to oppress, kill, whatever. seems like that's what so many people want. is it? if we're involved, we're meddlers, if we're not, we're heartless. you can't have both. so tell me, what should we do?

Isolationism is it? Hmm..seems we tried that once a while back.

Look, the U.S.'s "involvement" in international affairs is not the issue here. There's ways to go about helping oppressed people and getting rid of dictators short of invasion. That's why we have an international community. That's why there's sanctions and U.N. peacekeeping forces and a whole host of other diplomatic tricks we could use.

But what Bush did was take the world's fear, sympathy, and support gained from the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and used that (along with some well-crafted lies) to go ahead and invade a country that hadn't really done anything to America. He thought, like most Americans following the Gulf War, that Iraq would be a quick and easy win, we'd install a puppet state, and all would be fine. Oops!

[DougP]

okay, plan b. the hell with the middle east, don't buy their oil, don't have any contact with them, let them just do what they want because it's their country regardless of who they decide to oppress, kill, whatever. seems like that's what so many people want. is it? if we're involved, we're meddlers, if we're not, we're heartless. you can't have both. so tell me, what should we do?

How about this for starters: Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

We should not confuse this concept of non-interventionism with that of isolationism or protectionism. They are in fact very different ideals. Just because a nation and its representatives, note I did not use the term 'leaders', opt to avoid entangling alliances with other nations that may one day lead its people to war, does not mean that nation and its people are uncaring. It just means that a nation is avoiding becoming sucked into wars not related to direct territorial self-defense. This meddling, that you mentioned, is often what becomes a catalyst for future confrontations and acts of terrorism. The thought that one generation has the right to meddle in affairs abroad that can one day lead future generations to war is just plain wrong in my opinion.

Isolationism is it? Hmm..seems we tried that once a while back.

No, OPM, we did not try Isolationism, we had a policy of non-interventionism, very, very different.

[Crazysix]

lets look at the facts..............
1. do we belong in Iraq? NO
2. Was there another motivation for going there? YES
3. Was INTEL faulty NO
4.Was Intel Spot on and the POTUS ignored the signs YES
5. Did someone make ,mega millions on the war ? YES
6. Are the Iraqi people better off now than pre-Sadam? NO
7 Is the Middle East now more Stable Hell no

8. Do innocent people die in war? Yes
9. In an urban environment are civvie casualties accepted? YES
10. Now that we are there right or wrong are our troops conducting military operation in defense of our country or its interest? NO
11. Are we acting as a " big brother Police Force"? Yes
12. do we need to concentrate on finding those who will hurt us and helping those who
need us? Yes
13. Do we owe the people of Iraq, enough to help them get an infrastructure back on line? Yes
now these are my takes on the whole Iraqi war which, we were lied to by the Pres, so it looked at first as if it was part of the war on terror.......We need to IMHO stabilize and Afghanistan and let the arab countires in that area that have offered to send in troops to help rebuild Iraq do so. someone mentioned about the blockade that Clinton over saw.......It worked correct????? there was no war and Americans still felt semi safe outside the US, not to mention he looked out for our allies in country....the Kurds , the people whom bush forgot

[Crazysix]

How about this for starters: Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

YOU MEAN EVEN ALASKA:scratchchin::scratchchin::thumbup::thumbup:

[RosaL]

Maybe the reason this got mentioned now is that the book Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan: Eyewitness Accounts of the Occupation was only published recently. (Haymarket Books, September, 16).

I can't say how much is true, but the sad part I read was when one Iraqi woman was walking towards Marines carrying a big bag and they blew her to pieces thinking she was a terrorist. After that they found the bag was full of groceries she was trying to bring them as a gift.

Maybe in every war this kind of thing happens, but it made me wonder how many people killed in Iraq are really terrorists. Maybe she had some sons, or a husband.

Are they going to forgive or revenge?

[vvloc]

Maybe the reason this got mentioned now is that the book Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan: Eyewitness Accounts of the Occupation was only published recently. (Haymarket Books, September, 16).

I can't say how much is true, but the sad part I read was when one Iraqi woman was walking towards Marines carrying a big bag and they blew her to pieces thinking she was a terrorist. After that they found the bag was full of groceries she was trying to bring them as a gift.

Maybe in every war this kind of thing happens, but it made me wonder how many people killed in Iraq are really terrorists. Maybe she had some sons, or a husband.

Are they going to forgive or revenge?

Well, as ALL testimony given was offered to be given UNDER OATH to Congress, I would strongly suspect it IS true.

[dk]

On a personal note, I would rather put down every man woman and child in that area than allow one of my fellow countrymen be harmed in any way.
FUBAR. Don't forget that we are human first and American second... That's the problem with society, IMO. We make such a big deal of which town/city/state/country we were born in that we lose what's important...

[dk]

i am sorry.. after having fought in this war on terror...
Dude, just say it. After fighting in this war on the catchphrase of the day... War on terror? We brought the war of terror...

[dk]

i can see how he could be upset that these Iraqi's are allowing FOREIGN fighters to come in and fight without raising a finger to stop them.
Seriously?

Honestly, seriously? Big ass country invades you, you have no chance whatsoever to really do anything about it but be pissed off and wish that they would just die, and you wouldn't wish that someone, ANYONE, would just come in and whoop the shit out of them? Honestly?

Seriouisly???

[vvloc]

Maybe the reason this got mentioned now is that the book Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan: Eyewitness Accounts of the Occupation was only published recently. (Haymarket Books, September, 16).

I can't say how much is true, but the sad part I read was when one Iraqi woman was walking towards Marines carrying a big bag and they blew her to pieces thinking she was a terrorist. After that they found the bag was full of groceries she was trying to bring them as a gift.

Maybe in every war this kind of thing happens, but it made me wonder how many people killed in Iraq are really terrorists. Maybe she had some sons, or a husband.

Are they going to forgive or revenge?

Here is the actual testimony as given by Jason Washburn USMC, concerning the woman with the grocery bags of food - the penalties for perjury (lying under oath to Congress are quite severe)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2GJoYWrNx4

You, also, might want to check out post #25 in this thread, where Mike Totten, Military Police, is unable to hold back tears as he offers his testimony and then tears up his letter of commendation from General petraeus.

[dk]

Maybe the reason this got mentioned now is that the book Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan: Eyewitness Accounts of the Occupation was only published recently. (Haymarket Books, September, 16).

I can't say how much is true, but the sad part I read was when one Iraqi woman was walking towards Marines carrying a big bag and they blew her to pieces thinking she was a terrorist. After that they found the bag was full of groceries she was trying to bring them as a gift.

Maybe in every war this kind of thing happens, but it made me wonder how many people killed in Iraq are really terrorists. Maybe she had some sons, or a husband.

Are they going to forgive or revenge?
I'm sure it does happen in every war... What's it they say? All is fair in love and war? It goes both ways... You can't dick over a whole populace and expect them to not come at you at an unusual angle...

Yes, this probably reads as pretty abstract, but I'm basically tired of hearing Americans tell me that they're sick of terrorists using guerilla/etc tactics, as if they had any other choice. Think, people, think. Put yourself in their shoes. Shit, firing lines were pretty popular back in the day, but they wouldn't be effective at all these days. You want to **** up your enemy, you do what they can't protect against, period. There are no rules of engagement, really. The only objective in fighting is to win, period. It shocks me that a bunch of hardasses cannot grasp this...

[RosaL]

I'm basically tired of hearing Americans tell me that they're sick of terrorists using guerilla/etc tactics, as if they had any other choice. Think, people, think. Put yourself in their shoes. Shit, firing lines were pretty popular back in the day, but they wouldn't be effective at all these days. You want to **** up your enemy, you do what they can't protect against, period. There are no rules of engagement, really. The only objective in fighting is to win, period. It shocks me that a bunch of hardasses cannot grasp this...

But what are we doing there, and if there are no rules of engagement, isn't whatever terrorists do also OK?

[dk]

But what are we doing there, and if there are no rules of engagement, isn't whatever terrorists do also OK?
As far as their cause is concerned, it's a means to and end. I am not putting my blessing on it, but in the end, war is war.

[Zim the Invader]

You do know that we're talking about Iraq here, don't you - got ANYTHING meaningful to back up your contention of "such a large terrorist (sic) population?"

I have a friend who is Iraqi. She grew up there and remembers having to hide under her bed as a little girl because we were bombing her town. She later saved enough money to come here and lived in San Diego. She married a marine and last time we spoke things were good. When the current war started I asked her what she thought about us fighting in (not particularly with) her home nation. Her response was this:

"The United States and the rest of the non Muslim world will never be safe until they're dead. Even if you haven't done anything wrong, they are taught to hate you. If you want to be able to live and raise kids in a safer world, you need to kill everything that moves. Men, women, kids, dogs, anything. They have no souls. Save yourselves."

Yes, that's a quote. Her statement had such an impact that I remember it word for word. I've never been there (not through lack of trying though), but she had. And not just as a visitor. The way I see it, her thoughts deserve a higher consideration than mine just because she is from that culture and has a greater understanding than I do.

[vvloc]

I have a friend who is Iraqi. She grew up there and remembers having to hide under her bed as a little girl because we were bombing her town. She later saved enough money to come here and lived in San Diego. She married a marine and last time we spoke things were good. When the current war started I asked her what she thought about us fighting in (not particularly with) her home nation. Her response was this:

"The United States and the rest of the non Muslim world will never be safe until they're dead. Even if you haven't done anything wrong, they are taught to hate you. If you want to be able to live and raise kids in a safer world, you need to kill everything that moves. Men, women, kids, dogs, anything. They have no souls. Save yourselves."

Yes, that's a quote. Her statement had such an impact that I remember it word for word. I've never been there (not through lack of trying though), but she had. And not just as a visitor. The way I see it, her thoughts deserve a higher consideration than mine just because she is from that culture and has a greater understanding than I do.

I do agree that your friend's thoughts who is from there deserve higher consideration than your thoughts when you've never been there, BUT, with all due respect, I hardly think her thoughts carry more weight than madeline albright's or the military men and women who testified in this thread.

[Zim the Invader]

I do agree that your friend's thoughts who is from there deserve higher consideration than your thoughts when you've never been there, BUT, with all due respect, I hardly think her thoughts carry more weight than Madeline Fulbright's or the military men and women who testified in this thread.

Possibly, but I am inclined to disagree based on this: She was raised in that environment. She, being of the culture, knows and understands the people in small town Iraq better than anyone who is on the outside looking in. Of course, that's just my own opinion.

[sktmfy]

How about this for starters: Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.




No, OPM, we did not try Isolationism, we had a policy of non-interventionism, very, very different.

wasnt americas standpoint considered isolationism before WWII? I mean im know history buff, but thats what I always thought.

[Kinrat]

Remember the Great White Fleet? A little history in the not so distant past.

[DougP]

wasnt americas standpoint considered isolationism before WWII? I mean im know history buff, but thats what I always thought.

The pre WWII era is commonly considered (misinterpreted) to be a time of isolationism by those who conflate non-interventionism with isolationism.

Isolationism is quite often a word has been used as a pejorative to describe the non-interventionism foreign policy of the past. Which of course was not really the case before WWII because FDR had a very interventionist foreign policy in Asia, particularly in regards to the Japanese. Isolationism in a matter of speaking, is where a nation isolates themselves from the rest of the world. This is a policy which usually forbids trade and talks with other nations, a policy that does not even allow for diplomatic relations with other countries. Even just a brief look back at the observed treaties, diplomatic meetings the US had with other nations, both in Europe and in Asia, combined with the global expansionism of the US at that time, clearly negate any claims that America was an isolated nation. It can even be argued that American foreign policy back then wasn't truly one of non-interventionism either. A country can have a policy of non-interventionism, (where it does not tell other governments what to do or get involved with the internal affairs of another sovereign nations) without necessarily being an isolationist nation.

[thatguy4]

The thing I remember most about the conflict in Iraq was the people in the street after the military had rolled though. I remember the celebration, the tearing down of the statue, the people dancing on the statue. I remember the story about the woman who was bringing a gift to the soldiers when they shot at her. I remember these things and think that the work the U.S. did there is good. Sure they didn't really want who was elected but how many people who post here feel the same way about G.W. getting elected into a second term. We can blame the voting system and such but I venture to say it is closer to the truth that despite not having the popular vote he still won it. There are losses in every conflict and I would like to think the U.S. is trying like hell to avoid it. There are always those few that ruin it for the whole but I think overall the work we did there was great. As for militants coming in to fight American forces that point just seems dumb to me. Iraq says they want us to leave and we are willing to do that but to do it right away and leave the country to fend off the wolves by themselves is probably not the best idea. I want nothing more than for everyone over there to come home safely and for the people living there to be able to go about their lives with a little bit more peace than what they had but the unfortunate truth is that a conflict regardless or its size always leaves something to be desired.

[sktmfy]

The pre WWII era is commonly considered (misinterpreted) to be a time of isolationism by those who conflate non-interventionism with isolationism.

Isolationism is quite often a word has been used as a pejorative to describe the non-interventionism foreign policy of the past. Which of course was not really the case before WWII because FDR had a very interventionist foreign policy in Asia, particularly in regards to the Japanese. Isolationism in a matter of speaking, is where a nation isolates themselves from the rest of the world. This is a policy which usually forbids trade and talks with other nations, a policy that does not even allow for diplomatic relations with other countries. Even just a brief look back at the observed treaties, diplomatic meetings the US had with other nations, both in Europe and in Asia, combined with the global expansionism of the US at that time, clearly negate any claims that America was an isolated nation. It can even be argued that American foreign policy back then wasn't truly one of non-interventionism either. A country can have a policy of non-interventionism, (where it does not tell other governments what to do or get involved with the internal affairs of another sovereign nations) without necessarily being an isolationist nation.

thanks for clearing that up