Facts of history of MCAS Futenma

[JUNewsBot]

JUNewsBot Has Just Posted the Following:

Last weekend marked the third anniversary of the helicopter crash into Okinawa Kokusai University campus in Ginowan City. As the controversy surrounding the future and relocation of MCAS Futenma continues, Peter Simpson, an assistant professor at the university, submitted this article detailing the history of the MCAS Futenma (Editor).

Click here to view the article. (http://www.japanupdate.com/?id=7846)

Feel free to hold a discussion regarding this article here.

[ryukyuboi]

Peter Simpson obviously has his own biased agenda. Sounds like he might work for FOX news, you know, the network that lets you decide - while giving a fair and balanced news/historical account. I think not.

Does Simpson really believe that in the democratic USA that USA residents dictate how the military base in their backyard operates within the gates? I wonder how much democracy Japan allows the residents surrounding the former Naha Air Base, now under the control of Japan?? Zip.

I lived in Ojana in the 1960s. Airplanes flew so close overhead that I thought I could throw a rock and hit the planes. I worked on MCAS Futenma as well, although the base was not always so named. Since the 1960s, I have not ever read that "the US military and its protagonists often resort to comparing the safety of vehicles in the skies over Ginowan with those on the ground." Is it really a matter of resorting? I am sure the number of automobile deaths surrounding MCAS Futenma in the last 50 years far exceeds the deaths resulting from military aircraft. Airplanes are safer. That is a fact.

Who cares what Simpson deems a civic duty in regards to peacefully protesting? Jesus. The Okinawans have a very long history of mostly peaceful protest since the end of World War Two. Okinawans will continue to peacefully protest - even without the blessing of Simpson.

Serious, high level discussions concerning the reversion of the Ryukyu Islands took place in the 1960s. A decade later, a deal was signed, sealed and delievered. It doesn't make much sense to me that the USMC would relocate to Okinawa to avoid local accountability. That's a stretch. I guess the US Navy and US Air Force did not need to avoid accountability. There were no strategic reasons? Gimme a break.

Factually, Simpson's article is flawed and incomplete. The fact that he is an assistant professor at Okinawa Kokusai University should make any reader suspect of his true intentions.

[Muku]

Factually, Simpson's article is flawed and incomplete. The fact that he is an assistant professor at Okinawa Kokusai University should make any reader suspect of his true intentions.
Sure, he is a liberal anti-military, anti-establishment kind of guy.

Civl duty to protest? Me thinks not. Also so what if the base wasnt used until the 60's what the hell difference does it make. It's there now, and now is what needs to be dealt with. I think this guy needs to get into the 21 Century with the rest of us.

[DougP]

IIRC wasn't Okinawa Kokusai University founded somewhere around spring of 1972? On the map it looks pretty close to Futenma air base. And also from the old photos I've seen of the area there didn't seem to be much of anything surrounding the airbase back when it was built. I'm confused why would you build a university so close to a dangerous air base? :)

[hankypanky]

The real reason of futenma other than supporting ground troops on okinawa is it is designated as a UN base. Have we all forgot, there is a cease fire in korea, technically we are still at war with the north. Futenma and Kadena are UN airfields that would support an future engagements we would have in this area, korea and/or the china/taiwan issue.

As a resident here for the last 9 years and a business owner in Ginowan, I do think that the base should be relocated. Isn't it alot safer in northern Okinawa than Ginowan? Hell yes. But the dragging of heals by government officials in nago and naha will cause all to suffer, mostly the okinawan community that could use the money that the central gov is holding up do a few polititions.

I cater to americans and okinawans alike and would hate to lose business, but there is a larger picture here. What do you think is going to happen to all the residents of ginowan when there land rent is cut off, the jobs on bases are lost, and the hundreds of contractors that have work because of the bases lose their wages? It is going to trickle down to everyone on Okinawa! Maybe in 20 years after then bases go away, the economy will rebound, but like the professor and many oponents of the bases, they have no economic link to anything Americans do or spend on okinawa.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Futenma and Kadena are UN airfields that would support an future engagements we would have in this area, korea and/or the china/taiwan issue.

Yes, but how likely do you think that really is?

Besides, look at how huge Kadena is. I am still baffled why they can't merge the functions of Futenma onto Kadena and build a second runway. Surely they could. I just think there is some interservice pride of not wanting to forced together into such a cozy relationship with one another.

Marine Generals want their own little feifdoms to stand apart, and airforce personel would balk at having to bunk and host so many of those young Marines who seem to not be able to keep from getting in trouble.

In any event that is the easier and more pragmatic solution, and it sits like an elephant in the room that no one is willing to discuss.

[DougP]

Yes, but how likely do you think that really is?

Besides, look at how huge Kadena is. I am still baffled why they can't merge the functions of Futenma onto Kadena and build a second runway. Surely they could. I just think there is some interservice pride of not wanting to forced together into such a cozy relationship with one another.

Marine Generals want their own little feifdoms to stand apart, and airforce personel would balk at having to bunk and host so many of those young Marines who seem to not be able to keep from getting in trouble.

In any event that is the easier and more pragmatic solution, and it sits like an elephant in the room that no one is willing to discuss.


Come on you know there is a lot more to it than space. Its not as simple as building another runway on Kadena. If it was I'm sure they would have done so already. Then again maybe there'd be some protest to that. Too many aircraft in one location, added tarmac increases the average temperature in the area... etc etc... My thing is why would you build next to a runway?

[shima]

First off, the professor does have an economic link to the bases though not directly. When the locals loose the rent money and the contractors (MLC's) don't have work, then who's children will attend college? Not enough kids in the the school's means that programs get cut or the schools shutdown. Families and business will follow the base north and 10 years from establishment of the northern base we will have similar complaints about danger.

The reason the base's can't and won't be consolidate has nothing to do with inter-service pride issues. That is just ignorant to thing so. For a moment think tactical. Any one that has served for more than 5 minutes could tell you the requirement for alternative airfields. Me personally, in the case of a mass evacuation (due to war, chemical attack, other such threat) of the island would prefer that 3 airfields were running vice 1 or 2.

[the_wrath_of_Khan]

Peter Simpson is a fool. It is as simple as that. The fact that Japan Update would print this ridiculous article is odd seeing as their lone source of income is from the bases. If there were no bases here filled with 40,000 Americans eager to spend their 1st and 15th paychecks Japan Update would cease to exist as we know it. They definitely wouldn't have 99% English advertising.

I wish these liberal, communist, socialist, and imperialist Japanese would wake up and smell the coffee. If you take a look around at all of the places that the US Military has pulled out of when asked to do so you will see that an economic boom is not waiting around the corner. Look at the Philippines! Almost 20 years later they are still trying to think up ways of making money where there used to be bases, but Subic Bay and Angeles City are now basically an economy that revolves around the sex tourism industry. While Japanese don't have any qualms about the domestic sex industry I highly doubt that Okinawans would appreciate this island developing into a place to come to gamble and get your rocks off.

That is essentially what this is turning into. Wherever the basis go so go the people. If the bases go to Guam people won't be able to pull out of Okinawa fast enough. I frankly wish we would go somewhere worthwhile like Taiwan. We all know how well the Japanese have treated the Okinawans throughout history. It speaks to the sensitivity and kindness that the Americans even listen to such ridiculous complaints. On top of all of this Futenma is hardly the base it once was. When I first got to Okinawa in 2001 we had tons of flights out of Futenma everyday. Now I hardly see any.

[JSSAUCE]

Well after reading his article 3 times I do not understand the anger towards him. Is it because he is for removal of the base? Now I may be the fool for reading and believing him but I do. Not just because he is a professor and has a PhD. He does have reference cited which is more then most of us, including me, have when we post. Of course he is writing a factual article and we are posting opinion but non the less I can see his side of things.

I have researched Okinawan history in general pre war and post war. I am just starting a book "The Government Of The Kingdom Of Ryukyu, 1609-1872" by Mitsugu Matsuda PhD U of Hawaii 1967. I have placed several other orderd for books Okinawan related through the internet too.

I also have my best friend a 73 year old Okinawan who worked for the Americans starting when he was around 13 or 14 until he retired in I believe 1996/97? He has incrediable stories and memories. He also has several older brothers and sisters who have clear memories of pre war 1945 Okinawa.

I have such a renewed passion for Okinawa I have really started to devote my free time to research and learning.

I am NOT saying that I am an expert or have the answheres by any means. I just have a passion and calling I need to fulfill. I still have a hard time coming to a clear view on the whole US/Japan/Okinawa issues.

Joel

[DougP]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/DougGTR32/Futenma.jpg

[Muku]

The reason the base's can't and won't be consolidate has nothing to do with inter-service pride issues. That is just ignorant to thing so

First off I think your wrong. There has been a long standing dislike at Kadena for Marines. The less they have to do with them the better. The AF tolerates their prescence as it is and if they had their way their would be even less contact.

FYI, strategically there are 4 airfields available for use here in Okinawa including Futenma. So before you start refering to people and their thinking as ignorant do a little research first.

[DougP]

First off I think your wrong. There has been a long standing dislike at Kadena for Marines. The less they have to do with them the better. The AF tolerates their prescence as it is and if they had their way their would be even less contact.

FYI, strategically there are 4 airfields available for use here in Okinawa including Futenma. So before you start refering to people and their thinking as ignorant do a little research first.

I would still have to disagree with you on the two services hate each other as you put it. The marines/Navy have operated out of Kadena several times.
For instance after the accident in 2004. I've flown in marine, navy and AF birds that have taken off from Kadena. Afterwards I parachuted safely to the ground or in the water depending on the type of jump it was.

On the airfield thing what are your references? I hope you are not refering to Yomitan airfield as a possibility.

[Muku]

I would still have to disagree with you on the two services hate each other as you put it. The marines/Navy have operated out of Kadena several times.
For instance after the accident in 2004. I've flown in marine, navy and AF birds that have taken off from Kadena. Afterwards I parachuted safely to the ground or in the water depending on the type of jump it was.

On the airfield thing what are your references? I hope you are not refering to Yomitan airfield as a possibility.


I the first portion I will have to agree to disagree with you. On the Airfields, no I haven't included Yomitan, but I will give you one of them, IIe Shima, the other three are pretty obvious.

[DougP]

Iie shima I figured although not a very tactical in an emergency situation. Not too many planes you can land on that rocky coral runway. Not very usefull in an evacutation either. Naha I guess
is the other.

[Muku]

Iie shima I figured although not a very tactical in an emergency situation. Not too many planes you can land on that rocky coral runway. Not very usefull in an evacutation either. Naha I guess
is the other.

However Iie Shima is a runway that can be used, no one commented on the tactical situation, that isnt the point.

Yes Naha is the other, most people often forget that Naha is a joint civilian and military use runway. Another thing people often forget is that the air above and around Okinawa is controlled by the US as well.

[DougP]

However Iie Shima is a runway that can be used, no one commented on the tactical situation, that isnt the point.

Yes Naha is the other, most people often forget that Naha is a joint civilian and military use runway. Another thing people often forget is that the air above and around Okinawa is controlled by the US as well.

Here you go it was in shimas post. I also commented on the evacuation element... which Iie shima would be of little use for.
in the case of a mass evacuation (due to war, chemical attack, other such threat) of the island would prefer that 3 airfields were running vice 1 or 2.

[the_wrath_of_Khan]

First off I think your wrong. There has been a long standing dislike at Kadena for Marines. The less they have to do with them the better. The AF tolerates their prescence as it is and if they had their way their would be even less contact.

FYI, strategically there are 4 airfields available for use here in Okinawa including Futenma. So before you start refering to people and their thinking as ignorant do a little research first.

The Marines already heavily use KAB. K5 Right is almost exclusively used by Marines because of the issues with Futenma. What 4 air fields are you counting?

[the_wrath_of_Khan]

I don't understand why we didn't use the Yomitan airstrip that the Japanese had already built.

[DougP]

we did a long time ago, used to be able to do airborne ops out there too until we managed to piss off some farmers.

[silviasichigo]

However Iie Shima is a runway that can be used, no one commented on the tactical situation, that isnt the point.

Yes Naha is the other, most people often forget that Naha is a joint civilian and military use runway. Another thing people often forget is that the air above and around Okinawa is controlled by the US as well.

The air above Naha is jointly controlled by Japanese and Military ATC and they are connected via Microwave Communications from Futenma ATC and Kadena ATC. If it were completly controlled by the American Military I can assure you their would be way less civilian news aircraft in the air above the bases.

As far as the airfeilds Go their were more than 4 airfields back in the day right across from Ocean expo there was a 2km Airstrip also used for military purposes, IF paved over it would make for a good Drag Strip. :thumbup1: IE shima is ragged but C130's, Helo's are about the only thing capable of landind their, but I have not been thier on the field in 5 years.

[Asshat]

The air above Naha is jointly controlled by Japanese and Military ATC and they are connected via Microwave Communications from Futenma ATC and Kadena ATC. As far as the airfeilds Go their were more than 4 airfields back in the day right across from Ocean expo there was a 2km Airstrip also used for military purposes, IF paved over it would make for a good Drag Strip. :thumbup1: IE shima is ragged but C130's, Helo's are about the only thing capable of landind their, but I have not been thier on the field in 5 years.

Hamby. When the helos went to Futenma, we drag raced there. Comments about the USMC and USAF not getting along being the reason for not basing MCAS assets at KAB is about as ignorant as blaming the US Military for not making laws for the people of Ginowan City.

IE is used for obsticle approach and short field take offs for the Herks, and the helos and scarriers use it...but it has few other uses.

So....where do military assets lay with Japan's plan for pandemic event evacuation?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Comments about the USMC and USAF not getting along being the reason for not basing MCAS assets at KAB is about as ignorant as blaming the US Military for not making laws for the people of Ginowan City.

LOL!

You certainly weren't here on the old forums several years ago. When the suggestion then was brought up, a lot of airforce forum members were dead set against sharing their space with marines, who then they felt compelled to use the word jarhead.

[DougP]

Forums are forums though. Hopefully all that talk about the marines/navy not being able to fly out of kadena because the Airforce hates them so much has been laid to rest.

[Muku]

Forums are forums though. Hopefully all that talk about the marines/navy not being able to fly out of kadena because the Airforce hates them so much has been laid to rest.

I never once made that comment, and not saying that you are refering to me either. Marines have been flying out of Kadena probably ever since Kadena was built. People I think just assumed that is what I was talking about.:)

My point about inter-service politics would be to move MCAS Futenma and all of it assets to Kadena. Letting the Marines fly in and out is one thing, having Marines live on and work on Kadena would be something totally different.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Hopefully all that talk about the marines/navy not being able to fly out of kadena because the Airforce hates them so much has been laid to rest.

Are there still restrictions discriminating against Marines from using Air Force facilities such as clubs and what not? A lot of marines used to feel that was unfair that they couldn't have access to air force clubs.

If those restrictions are still in place, I would presume that is because of some view that marines are not worthy enough, or of a lower quality that the air force would like to keep out.

I can't remember it being the opposite way though with marine clubs not welcoming air force personel. There is something telling about that if these unequal policies exist.

[DougP]

I never once made that comment, Marines have been flying out of Kadena probably ever since Kadena was built.

My point about inter-service politics would be to move MCAS Futenma and all of it assets to Kadena. Letting the Marines fly in and out is one thing, having Marines live on and work on Kadena would be something totally different.

Never said you did :) Oh but it would be fun to watch Marines living on and working on Kadena

[DougP]

Are there still restrictions discriminating against Marines from using Air Force facilities such as clubs and what not? A lot of marines used to feel that was unfair that they couldn't have access to air force clubs.

If those restrictions are still in place, I would presume that is because of some view that marines are not worthy enough, or of a lower quality that the air force would like to keep out.

I can't remember it being the opposite way though with marine clubs not welcoming air force personel. There is something telling about that if these unequal policies exist.

Not that I remember. I hardly ever went to kadena that much but I don't remember it ever being like that.

[Muku]

Here you go it was in shimas post. I also commented on the evacuation element... which Iie shima would be of little use for.
My mistake, in the case of evacuation there would be little use for Iie Shima.

Comments about the USMC and USAF not getting along being the reason for not basing MCAS assets at KAB is about as ignorant as blaming the US Military for not making laws for the people of Ginowan City.


Ignorant? Mmmmm read my previous post on this thread. People around here toss this word around a bit too much in my opinion.

[Muku]

Not that I remember. I hardly ever went to kadena that much but I don't remember it ever being like that.
There was a time that the base clubs were off limits for Marines, if memory serves me right, for NCO's and below.

Don't know about today though.

[DoctorP]

They (Marines) used to be banned from Shilling and the NCO club. That was back in '95 though I think. I was able to go in because I was a member at the NCO club before the policy went into effect. Not sure if it is still like that or not.

[PKaBooo69]

Are there still restrictions discriminating against Marines from using Air Force facilities such as clubs and what not? A lot of marines used to feel that was unfair that they couldn't have access to air force clubs.

If those restrictions are still in place, I would presume that is because of some view that marines are not worthy enough, or of a lower quality that the air force would like to keep out.

I can't remember it being the opposite way though with marine clubs not welcoming air force personel. There is something telling about that if these unequal policies exist.

That because we were taking all of thier women and beating up the airmen :thumbup: just joking.....but seriously :D

[P_chan]

That because we were taking all of thier women and beating up the airmen :thumbup: just joking.....but seriously :D

No the AF guys just chase the japanese women and leave the american girls for the marines!:thumbup: They get desperate so they settle for marines!:D If I go to the airmen's club it's like an attention whore fest in there!:thumbdown:

[DougP]

What's an attention whore fest like? Is that where someone comes in and yells "Attention Whores!" and they all snap to and stand up straight. :)

[P_chan]

No it's a bunch of drunk (sometimes sober) chicks doing stuff they normally don't do to try to get the most attention.

Kinda like the one chick with the marines I saw up at okuma once I was there. She was an attention whore. LOL she got jealous once I showed up with all my nihonjin ladies, and she left. It became a sausage fest really quick after that.

[PKaBooo69]

On the topic at hand. Looking at the maps, when Futenma was built there was nothing around. Why on earth would people build houses right on the gates?? And then complain about the noise??? And then complain about the saftey??? If you dont like it, than dont move near the base. Thats common sense!!! No different than moving near any airport! I moved here because I dont mind the noise (what absolutely little there is), I find it comforting.

I've got alot of friends that work in the Okinawan Government and News (even though the news bashes Americans sometimes and lies constantly) and they agree with the bases. Hell, most educated Okinawans I know dont mind them either. If it wasnt for bases my father in law's company wouldnt exist. If it wasnt for the Americans in Okinawa my greatgrandfather in law and grandfather would have never lived to be the nice age they did. Now there are alot of legitimate complaints about the bases and sometimes the Americans (heck even I got my complaints) but when they are because because of stupidity of the complainer, I have zero sympathy.

Fact is, the cry for "No-Base" is actually a very small one. Protests are not a good judge of the true following around here as we know how those actually work. Most intellegent working men do not want the bases gone.

Anyhow the dude who posted that article is a just a step below a terrorist in my eyes. He comes to a foreign country and spews propaganda on young, innocent and learning minds. Its absolutely disgusting. If you teach something, teach the whole truth, not just you twisted half truth to work to your own goals. That bro needs a serious reality check. What does he honestly think would be there if not a base? More Juscos, San Eis and Pachinko? Hahah just what Okinawa needs hahaha. Ginowan, Futenma, Chatan and Urasoe florished the way they did because of the bases. For good and bad.

[PKaBooo69]

What's an attention whore fest like? Is that where someone comes in and yells "Attention Whores!" and they all snap to and stand up straight. :)

more like they just act like straigh up whores hahaha :first:

[P_chan]

more like they just act like straigh up whores hahaha :first:

LOL that too! Oh I've got some funny stories!!!:thumbup1:

[dk]

What's an attention whore fest like? Is that where someone comes in and yells "Attention Whores!" and they all snap to and stand up straight. :)
The question was brought up. Don't blame me. You asked!

Edit: Snap, you asked what an attention whore FEST looks like, not an attention whore.... well anyway...

[P_chan]

The question was brought up. Don't blame me. You asked!

Edit: Snap, you asked what an attention whore FEST looks like, not an attention whore.... well anyway...

I was looking for that pic but couldn't find it!

[JSSAUCE]

On the topic at hand. Looking at the maps, when Futenma was built there was nothing around. Why on earth would people build houses right on the gates?? And then complain about the noise??? And then complain about the saftey??? If you dont like it, than dont move near the base. Thats common sense!!! No different than moving near any airport! I moved here because I dont mind the noise (what absolutely little there is), I find it comforting.

I've got alot of friends that work in the Okinawan Government and News (even though the news bashes Americans sometimes and lies constantly) and they agree with the bases. Hell, most educated Okinawans I know dont mind them either. If it wasnt for bases my father in law's company wouldnt exist. If it wasnt for the Americans in Okinawa my greatgrandfather in law and grandfather would have never lived to be the nice age they did. Now there are alot of legitimate complaints about the bases and sometimes the Americans (heck even I got my complaints) but when they are because because of stupidity of the complainer, I have zero sympathy.

Fact is, the cry for "No-Base" is actually a very small one. Protests are not a good judge of the true following around here as we know how those actually work. Most intellegent working men do not want the bases gone.

Anyhow the dude who posted that article is a just a step below a terrorist in my eyes. He comes to a foreign country and spews propaganda on young, innocent and learning minds. Its absolutely disgusting. If you teach something, teach the whole truth, not just you twisted half truth to work to your own goals. That bro needs a serious reality check. What does he honestly think would be there if not a base? More Juscos, San Eis and Pachinko? Hahah just what Okinawa needs hahaha. Ginowan, Futenma, Chatan and Urasoe florished the way they did because of the bases. For good and bad.

Well I can agree and disagree with what you say.

1. Most intellegent people do not want the bases gone. Agree! Lets close Kinser, Foster, Futenma tomorrow and see what happens. Stupidity.

2. Author is a step below terrorists. Disagree!! He like the rest of us has an opinion and agenda.

3. "no bases" is a small cry. Disagree!!! Even though most intellegent people realize they can not up and leave, it still needs to be delt with and happen eventually. There needs to be a realistic plan and actions that are followed through. I know ALL of my wifes friends "deal" with Americans and the "base issue". They do not hate Americans but deal with them as little as possiable, including me!! They too understand the bases can not just "leave" but again they have lives and work and kids etc... and all live South so they really do not have to deal with it. Out of the 4 that I talked with this month none of them could recall going past Kinser since we last saw them in August 2006.

Fact is it is a complicated issue. I was on the bases almost everyday this month and there is such a mix of military, Japanese civilians and American civilians its not even funny. Who keeps the clubs in business? Marines or the non military civilians?

4. Why move around the base then complain. I See some merit in both sides. If this is in the US I totally agree. People move next to O'hare airport in Chicago then complain a year later???:cursing:

Here I do not believe it so clear cut. I can go into detail later I am getting tired. We need to get up early and fly back to Chicago.

Seeya next year here in Okinawa but I'll be back on the boards in a day or two.

Joel

[kilo_four-six]

While I agree that we (Americans) need to get out of Okinawa, one must not forget the fact that it was the occupation and military buildup by Imperial Japan during WW2 which made Okinawa a target of unavoidable U.S. invasion. Imperial Japan in effect sacrificed Okinawa to buy a few more months time for themselves. This is not to excuse the negative impact of the subsequent U.S. occupation and ongoing presence, but let us remember the root causes of the entire situation.

[Asshat]

Ignorant? Mmmmm read my previous post on this thread. People around here toss this word around a bit too much in my opinion.

Ignorant was a disrespectful word, but I can't spell ludicrous. :) Seriously, I doubt the III MEF CG is banned from using a USAF club. And even if the USAF enlisted folks didn't want the III MEF 1st MAW elements on Kadena, doesn't it stand to reason that PACAF and III MEF would be able to work out a few hangars, a few supply buildings, a couple of barracks?

Or do you think they are still pissed off at each other because they steal each other's women at the "O" club when they are TDY?

LMAO!

[Muku]

1. Most intellegent people do not want the bases gone. Agree! Lets close Kinser, Foster, Futenma tomorrow and see what happens. Stupidity
Using generalizations like this does nothing to help you make your point. If you have facts or information to back this statement up I would suggest providing it instead of coming across as the one here that has less so called intelligence.

I am sure there were "intelligent" people like you back in the 50's and 60's as well, and "stupid" one's like you refer to as well, but look numerous bases have been closed and returned to Okinawa/Japanese control. Who's the "stupid" one now?

Close Kinser, Foster and Futenma, tomorrow, great we'll survive just fine, and strategically it wont really make that big of a difference either. It can and eventually will be done. Going to take a few years that's for sure, but somewhere down the rode these bases will be returned, again then who will be the "stupid" one and who will be the "intelligent" one?


Lastly, if you want to make your opinions and points here great I am all for it and ready to listen, just please learn not to dismiss other peoples comments out of hand by refering to or calling their opinions or thoughts as stupid or they being unintelligent, it only backfires against you. I dont know if you were aware of that or not, just because you dont agree doesnt make someone else anything less than you.

[atb35]

I would like to see a list of pros and cons of the US military here on Okinawa. Although I agree that we could combine bases and give back more land to the locals...does it really matter? If we gave them every base except Kadena, it would only be a matter of time before some whining ass bitches starting complaining that Kadena is taking up too much space and they want it back.

So throw up a list of things you think are good about the military, then give us your LONG list of all these bad things. (and please dont cite crap like, americans burn our businesses to the ground....state; A military member lit buildings on fire once. Stick to facts, not perceptions).

[Muku]

Seriously, I doubt the III MEF CG is banned from using a USAF club. And even if the USAF enlisted folks didn't want the III MEF 1st MAW elements on Kadena, doesn't it stand to reason that PACAF and III MEF would be able to work out a few hangars, a few supply buildings, a couple of barracks?
The physical aspects sure.

No, I dont think they could work out the accomodations, and I am pretty sure you know that it just isnt a couple of barracks either. Also I am not suggesting that it is about the size or number of barracks either, I am talking about the people, their attitudes, work ethics and other differences between the services personel themselves.

It's a Marine thing. If you follow and understand that then you know what I am talking about.

[JSSAUCE]

Using generalizations like this does nothing to help you make your point. If you have facts or information to back this statement up I would suggest providing it instead of coming across as the one here that has less so called intelligence.

I am sure there were "intelligent" people like you back in the 50's and 60's as well, and "stupid" one's like you refer to as well, but look numerous bases have been closed and returned to Okinawa/Japanese control. Who's the "stupid" one now?

Close Kinser, Foster and Futenma, tomorrow, great we'll survive just fine, and strategically it wont really make that big of a difference either. It can and eventually will be done. Going to take a few years that's for sure, but somewhere down the rode these bases will be returned, again then who will be the "stupid" one and who will be the "intelligent" one?


Lastly, if you want to make your opinions and points here great I am all for it and ready to listen, just please learn not to dismiss other peoples comments out of hand by refering to or calling their opinions or thoughts as stupid or they being unintelligent, it only backfires against you. I dont know if you were aware of that or not, just because you dont agree doesnt make someone else anything less than you.


Wow! I really can not figure you out and the comments you come up with and the anger that seems to come across. Its a message board and our opinions not documented research. I believe you mis understood my comments.

I was saying if tommorow you just decided to move all the Marines out and close shop I believe it would be stupidity. Not that pkabooo69 is stupid. Many people would be hurt and severly impacted right away. I do not need any sources to back that up, just commen sense.

As for your last paragraph again I feel you mis understood my comments. I never dismissed any ones opinion. I was responding to Pkabooo69 and agreeing or disagreeing with him, not dismissing him and stating my opinions on his points just like I would like to read other thoughts on his points.

Joel

[Muku]

Wow! I really can not figure you out and the comments you come up with and the anger that seems to come across. Its a message board and our opinions not documented research. I believe you mis understood my comments.
It's not anger, and yes its a message board on a forum, however it's called 'netiquitte.

I apologize if I misunderstood your comments, I guess I take people pretty much at face value and what their comments are. I also have learned over time never to assume what someone is trying to say either.

As you know there are humans on the other side of the screen.:D

[DADOG]

It is not a good idea to move Futenma aircraft to Kadena for the simple reason that helicoptors and fixed wing aircraft don't mix well. Kadena is big. Helicopters take a lot of ramp space and Kadena doesn't have it.
If the mayors and governor would stop fighting a losing battle Futenma would be moved already.
last rumor I heard was that Futenma would still be an airport for private corporate size aircraft. they are just as noisy if not more.

[PKaBooo69]

It is not a good idea to move Futenma aircraft to Kadena for the simple reason that helicoptors and fixed wing aircraft don't mix well. Kadena is big. Helicopters take a lot of ramp space and Kadena doesn't have it.
If the mayors and governor would stop fighting a losing battle Futenma would be moved already.
last rumor I heard was that Futenma would still be an airport for private corporate size aircraft. they are just as noisy if not more.



And those noisy japanese aircraft there would still be somehow the americans fault. And for if some chance not the Okinawans would still complain about it. There is always something to whine about here in Okinawa. Lucky for them they got a nice easy american target to pick on and blame everything on. Airport will probably still be there. Thats the last plan I saw too. So point still stands. Why build your house and schools next to an airport? And then complain? Thats just plain stupid. No different than America.

Uchinamuku: The intellegence I'm talking about is educated common sence. Think Phillipines. Okinawa will turn into a Pattaya, Thailand or a Subic Bay, PI once the American forces leave. Its all simple economics. Sure, Okinawa can go to tourism (which is what one of the officials running for office right now is planning on doing if she is elected:thumbdown:), but think about Japan and what that means. Mainland companies moving in. Not Okinawan. Okinawa will still be poor, but instead of getting alot of money from the US and Japanese governments, it'll be getting raped by mainland companys putting useless low paying jobs out here. More pachinko, more jusco, more prostitutes and other "leasure activities". I love Okinawa and DO NOT want this to happen. There is a reason the dude from okinawa denki (company name? cant remember off the top of my head) wants us to stay. Its not because we provide him alot of money directly (in the end of economic cycle we do). Same as those guys that run business no where near bases. The people who loose there jobs or support from base can no longer contribute to the local economy. Hence everyone will feel the pain. The writer of the article will feel the pain too if you need another example. When parents cant afford to pay for the "education" provided by him, how you think he is going to make a living here? The businessmen that want this move to happen are smart. They are tricking some of you guys and some of the Okinawan people to believe everything will be all right. Hahaha. Ya, alright for them to get richer, while the common man will rot away. There will be welfare galore. The only way this move can happen with a good ending, is if there is some serious proper planning before hand by people not trying to line thier pockets to go to snack bars, and some serious financial aid (especially since the okinawa government loves wasting money on unnessesary junk).

This is what I mean by intellegence. 2+2=4 not a magical economy popping up in an already poor Okinawa.

[Muku]

Uchinamuku: The intellegence I'm talking about is educated common sence. Think Phillipines. Okinawa will turn into a Pattaya, Thailand or a Subic Bay, PI once the American forces leave. Its all simple economics. Sure, Okinawa can go to tourism
You miss one hugely important difference here, Japan has the money, logistics, a highly literate and educated society. To compare the situation to the PI does not sound like someone is thinking this one through too much. Someone else here commented about this as well, maybe not on this thread but a different one. Comparing the situation in the PI and Okinawa is like comparing basketball and baseball, sure they both use a ball and are team sports but that's about the end of it there.

I am going to bypass commenting on the rest for right now as much of what you wrote is pure speculation, abeit some of it fairly perceptive but still speculation.

[CGoki]

You miss one hugely important difference here, Japan has the money, logistics, a highly literate and educated society. To compare the situation to the PI does not sound like someone is thinking this one through too much. Someone else here commented about this as well, maybe not on this thread but a different one. Comparing the situation in the PI and Okinawa is like comparing basketball and baseball, sure they both use a ball and are team sports but that's about the end of it there.

I am going to bypass commenting on the rest for right now as much of what you wrote is pure speculation, abeit some of it fairly perceptive but still speculation.

Your speculating as well if you think Japan is going to fund even more to Okinawa if the military leaves. Pretty much the only reason they fund what they do now is because of the military being here. My speculation is that funds would decrease from the central government of Japan if all the military was pulled out of Okinawa. Okinawa has nothing really going for it, there is no big industry here, nothing to really fall back on. Those in power can never really agree on anything, because it doesn't line their pocket as much as they would like. I really hate to say and think this, because I love this place like it is my home, the feeling that overcame me when I first walked off Kinser when I arrived oh so many years ago.

[Fonze]

well hypothetically speaking lets say all military disapeared, would there be enough people to fill those rooms, house, apartments at those prices. Would the people have to lower prices meaning less money to spend on the economy.

I know Japan is better prepared financially but, the government would have to spend alot more money on its military. Eventually though they would get it together , but would it be the same as if americans were here.

[CGoki]

well hypothetically speaking lets say all military disapeared, would there be enough people to fill those rooms, house, apartments at those prices. Would the people have to lower prices meaning less money to spend on the economy.

I know Japan is better prepared financially but, the government would have to spend alot more money on its military. Eventually though they would get it together , but would it be the same as if americans were here.

Have you ever seen the price difference between what Okinawans pay for rent compared to what military and those receiving housing allowance pay in rent, in the same building no less. The prices would disappear, they only exist now because the US Government sets those high ceiling rates as a burden lessener. It's just like when a military member walks into a housing office and one of the first things they are asked is, "What's your rank?"

I experienced it first hand when I got out, I was looking through local apartment book and found a place listed for ¥75000/month, then went just to see what some of the places catering to Americans had to offer, same damn building, same dimensions and whatnot and they wanted ¥140,000 for it. I asked them if they were serious and I don't receive housing and I just looked at that place yesterday and the price was a little more than half, can you match it? Their reply was, sorry that is the American rate and I said yeah for those that don't pay out of pocket. Damn where am I going with this? :ohmy:

Anyways this is one of those things that those so adamant about the bases leaving never really bring up, because the truth is, they have no idea or don't really care, as long as they succeed in having the bases admonished from Okinawa.

[DoctorP]

IF all bases pulled out the current buildings being rented by Americans would be soon rented to the "locals" at a slightly higher rate than what they are paying now. Then the old run down buildings that many of the locals are living in would be torn down and replaced with something else, but probably not housing. Would some people lose thier shirts? Sure...but the smart ones would rebound doing something else.

[CGoki]

IF all bases pulled out the current buildings being rented by Americans would be soon rented to the "locals" at a slightly higher rate than what they are paying now. Then the old run down buildings that many of the locals are living in would be torn down and replaced with something else, but probably not housing. Would some people lose thier shirts? Sure...but the smart ones would rebound doing something else.

What is that else though? What big business looms over Okinawa to take the place of being an MLC and IHA worker? I guess they could be like the skit on 'In Living Color' and become the Jamaican family and each member has several jobs, hell quite a few already fly the Jamaican flag and other rastafarian articles. :D

[DoctorP]

That paragraph was referring more to the landlords etc...not the MLC/IHA's, but I'm sure there would be early retirements and whatnot with them. Just like if my job is part of a RIF. I either get placement or retirement.

[CGoki]

That paragraph was referring more to the landlords etc...not the MLC/IHA's, but I'm sure there would be early retirements and whatnot with them. Just like if my job is part of a RIF. I either get placement or retirement.

Understand now. Though I don't see how they could really raise prices from what people are used to paying now, when a lot of people will be unemployed or working a couple of minimum wage service jobs with no customers because others will also be working a couple minimum wage service jobs. :thumbdown:

I guess some Taiwanese can become a little richer as there will also probably be more Professional Pachinko types, which in turn would create the need for even more of these monstrosities around the island.

[PKaBooo69]

IF all bases pulled out the current buildings being rented by Americans would be soon rented to the "locals" at a slightly higher rate than what they are paying now. Then the old run down buildings that many of the locals are living in would be torn down and replaced with something else, but probably not housing. Would some people lose thier shirts? Sure...but the smart ones would rebound doing something else.

And with all the jobs lost and businesses lost what money will be left to pay that raised rent? You are right about one thing though. The rich will get richer and everyone else is screwed :thumbup1:

[bad_karma]

Okay, gonna add my 2 yen here...remember, everyone has an opinion and I'm not going to get in a pissing contest here with anyone because of what I say. I'm going to say what I've seen in my time here.

First, let me preface by saying I have lived and worked on the economy here since leaving the MC in 1989. I've done just about everything here to put a roof over my head and food on the table since being a 21-year old kid fresh out of a four year stint in the Corps. As time has progressed I've managed to build a network and move into a career more befitting my talents.

What I have observed is that with the exception of a few forward thinking individuals out there, most Okinawans are, simply put, just not very good at business. The tei-gei attitude just doesn't cut it when you're talking business. Sure, it's all cool being a laid back islander at certain times, but not others. Those of us on this board who have truly worked in the business world here will, I have a feeling, understand where I'm coming from in saying this. Some may cry foul and exclaim, "But my __________ (father-in-law, brother-in-law, cousin-in-law's boyfriend's uncle, whatever) has a __________ (construction, trucking, auto repair) business and he works his ass off and his business is successful." Perhaps, but he may be part of the exception I mentioned earlier.

What does this have to do with this thread? Plenty. If (and when) the military does eventually leave the island, there damn well better be some meticulous planning involved beforehand to prepare for the massive economic void that would be there.

Signs are there that some of these forward thinkers already have this in mind. Example: Many of you on this board were here in the mid-80's. Remember when you were sitting in a bar or izakaya at that time and struck up a conversation with the person/group next to you? If they were local in appearance back then, chances are you found out that they were from right here in Okinawa. These days I've found that in the same situation, you can flip a coin, heads being local Okinawan and tails being mainland Japanese. Mainland Japanese, especially retirees, are moving here in droves. I believe this will turn out to be the final assimilation of Okinawa into Japanese culture. These retirees -- on whose back the "bubble economy" was built -- will no doubt lend their experience and expertise to local businesses and, hopefully, help them grow.

A cottage industry is already springing up around these retirees; wellness centers all over the island, special rates for home loans for these retirees from local Okinawa banks, etc. I'm sure a lot of excess real estate that would be left in the vacuum of a military withdrawal would find new renters/owners in mainland Japanese moving here. I believe you'll see Okinawa become to Japan what Florida and Arizona have long been to the States, a retirement haven.

This is one example of something that might fill the economic void. Casinos being another. I'm not going to discuss the casino topic here as I feel I've already strayed a bit off the topic of the thread.

My final comment is that Okinawans have to motivate themselves through education, specialty training, etc. in order to even do battle against whatever economic "plight" may or may not occur in the event Uncle Sam ever does call it a day.

Peace,

BK out

[PKaBooo69]

Its possible, I wont deny that. I just believe its more likely to go the other way. History repeats its self.....because of greedy men

[PKaBooo69]

Okay, gonna add my 2 yen here...remember, everyone has an opinion and I'm not going to get in a pissing contest here with anyone because of what I say. I'm going to say what I've seen in my time here.

First, let me preface by saying I have lived and worked on the economy here since leaving the MC in 1989. I've done just about everything here to put a roof over my head and food on the table since being a 21-year old kid fresh out of a four year stint in the Corps. As time has progressed I've managed to build a network and move into a career more befitting my talents.

What I have observed is that with the exception of a few forward thinking individuals out there, most Okinawans are, simply put, just not very good at business. The tei-gei attitude just doesn't cut it when you're talking business. Sure, it's all cool being a laid back islander at certain times, but not others. Those of us on this board who have truly worked in the business world here will, I have a feeling, understand where I'm coming from in saying this. Some may cry foul and exclaim, "But my __________ (father-in-law, brother-in-law, cousin-in-law's boyfriend's uncle, whatever) has a __________ (construction, trucking, auto repair) business and he works his ass off and his business is successful." Perhaps, but he may be part of the exception I mentioned earlier.

What does this have to do with this thread? Plenty. If (and when) the military does eventually leave the island, there damn well better be some meticulous planning involved beforehand to prepare for the massive economic void that would be there.

Signs are there that some of these forward thinkers already have this in mind. Example: Many of you on this board were here in the mid-80's. Remember when you were sitting in a bar or izakaya at that time and struck up a conversation with the person/group next to you? If they were local in appearance back then, chances are you found out that they were from right here in Okinawa. These days I've found that in the same situation, you can flip a coin, heads being local Okinawan and tails being mainland Japanese. Mainland Japanese, especially retirees, are moving here in droves. I believe this will turn out to be the final assimilation of Okinawa into Japanese culture. These retirees -- on whose back the "bubble economy" was built -- will no doubt lend their experience and expertise to local businesses and, hopefully, help them grow.

A cottage industry is already springing up around these retirees; wellness centers all over the island, special rates for home loans for these retirees from local Okinawa banks, etc. I'm sure a lot of excess real estate that would be left in the vacuum of a military withdrawal would find new renters/owners in mainland Japanese moving here. I believe you'll see Okinawa become to Japan what Florida and Arizona have long been to the States, a retirement haven.

This is one example of something that might fill the economic void. Casinos being another. I'm not going to discuss the casino topic here as I feel I've already strayed a bit off the topic of the thread.

My final comment is that Okinawans have to motivate themselves through education, specialty training, etc. in order to even do battle against whatever economic "plight" may or may not occur in the event Uncle Sam ever does call it a day.

Peace,

BK out


I completely agree. Thanks for wording it better

[Muku]

IF all bases pulled out the current buildings being rented by Americans would be soon rented to the "locals" at a slightly higher rate than what they are paying now. Then the old run down buildings that many of the locals are living in would be torn down and replaced with something else, but probably not housing. Would some people lose thier shirts? Sure...but the smart ones would rebound doing something else.
There is an over abundance of housing/apartments as it is already. I think that you Doc P think about this from more than just the bases and the surround areas too. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The housing around the bases is not cheap, however if someone wants to find an apartment farther away there are plenty of cheaper options available. Granted there was a time when the US Military accounted for a majority of the income here on Okinawa but those days have passed.

A cottage industry is already springing up around these retirees; wellness centers all over the island, special rates for home loans for these retirees from local Okinawa banks, etc. I'm sure a lot of excess real estate that would be left in the vacuum of a military withdrawal would find new renters/owners in mainland Japanese moving here. I believe you'll see Okinawa become to Japan what Florida and Arizona have long been to the States, a retirement haven.

Its already started, there are numerous locations for seniors here in Okinawa. Many retiree's from mainland have come here because of the low cost of living and the weather. They have more disposable income available due to their pensions and retirement pay. They are also funding an ever growing industry here in Okinawa related to senior citizens.

To those that know the medical related fields here in Okinawa are booming along with services for the elderly. This is one area I think not too many in the Military are aware of.

[Muku]

I guess some Taiwanese can become a little richer as there will also probably be more Professional Pachinko types, which in turn would create the need for even more of these monstrosities around the island.
Wrong country...a bit further north....as in North Korea!:)

[CGoki]

Wrong country...a bit further north....as in North Korea!:)


I've heard that most are run by Japanese gaming companies and Taiwanese investors. First I am hearing of NK. If that is the case I just have to laugh to myself.

[Muku]

I've heard that most are run by Japanese gaming companies and Taiwanese investors. First I am hearing of NK. If that is the case I just have to laugh to myself.

It is an open secret in Japan that pachinko is one of the pillars upon which North Korea's economy rests. Police and economists estimate that up to 30 percent of the pachinko industry is controlled by North Koreans living in Japan, many of whom fun nel a portion of their profits across the Japan Sea to their homeland.

While pinball parlors might seem an unlikely underpinning for a national economy, even one as shaky as North Korea's, consider the numbers: Japan's 18,000 pachinko parlors ring up annual sales of $280 billion.

No one knows exactly how much profit there is in the shady, mob-connected world of pachinko, or how much of the game's proceeds wind up in North Korea. In 1994, Japanese police testified in parliament that $600 million or more was being sent to the world's last Stalinist state, much of it derived from pachinko. Japanese media and economists also have placed the number in that range, though some say it may have fallen by more than 80 percent.



http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/jp-nk1.htm

http://www.mutantfrog.com/2004/06/14/japanese-money-in-north-korea/

It isnt Taiwan it's North Korea that benefits from the pachinko industry here in Japan. This is pretty much common knowledge here as well.:D

[CGoki]

So if that is the case, why do they not shut it down instead of turning a blind eye to it and essentially build up NK and allow Kim to Marineify :D(brainwash) the citizens.

Gomen Marines, the opportunity was there and I took it. :w00t:

[bad_karma]

So if that is the case, why do they not shut it down instead of turning a blind eye to it and essentially build up NK and allow Kim to Marineify (brainwash) the citizens.

I think you'd be surprised at the extent of the relationship between big business, the government, the police, and the yakuza in Japan.

Peace,

BK out

[Muku]

So if that is the case, why do they not shut it down instead of turning a blind eye to it and essentially build up NK and allow Kim to Marineify :D(brainwash) the citizens.

Gomen Marines, the opportunity was there and I took it. :w00t:

I think you know the answer to that one, at least I hope I am not wrong in assuming that you truly do.

Just in case two words here..."Zainichi Kankokujin":)

[DoctorP]

I have moved all offtopic replies about avatars here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11267#post11267)

[CGoki]

I think you know the answer to that one, at least I hope I am not wrong in assuming that you truly do.

Just in case two words here..."Zainichi Kankokujin":)


Yeah I should of added in the :rolleyes: smiley to my post. Pardon me for causing more confusion. :w00t:

[DougP]

Yeah I should of added in the :rolleyes: smiley to my post. Pardon me for causing more confusion. :w00t:

post whore post whore:thumbup:

[JSSAUCE]

It's not anger, and yes its a message board on a forum, however it's called 'netiquitte.

I apologize if I misunderstood your comments, I guess I take people pretty much at face value and what their comments are. I also have learned over time never to assume what someone is trying to say either.

As you know there are humans on the other side of the screen.:D


Yea I hear you.

Well I have to say maybe my tone will change now. Just got back home to Chicago and I am already missing Okinawa!!

Joel

[Muku]

Yea I hear you.

Well I have to say maybe my tone will change now. Just got back home to Chicago and I am already missing Okinawa!!

Joel
Enjoy the Pizza! Privately speaking here, I hope the Cubs lose! Go Brewers!

[P_chan]

Enjoy the Pizza! Privately speaking here, I hope the Cubs lose! Go Brewers!

GO CUBS:thumbup:

[socalheart]

Yay, Cubs! They're my third favorite. We're talking baseball, right?

[dk]

Yay, Cubs! They're my third favorite. We're talking baseball, right?
No, baby bears! :ohmy:

[Muku]

Yay, Cubs! They're my third favorite. We're talking baseball, right?
Yes we are..yet something tells me that the Cub's cant win it all!