Bailout or not?

[leahjackson]

Shares in G.M. sank to their lowest point in 65 years, to $2.92, on Tuesday, the day after the company revealed in a federal filing that its “ability to continue as a going concern” is in substantial doubt because it may run out of money by the end of the year.

Its cash cushion has been shrinking by more than $2 billion a month this fall. If that continues, G.M.’s reserves will fall below the minimum of $10 billion in cash it needs to run its global operations by January, the company said in its third-quarter S.E.C. filing.

So, should the taxpayers bail out the automakers? Did they dig their own graves by not paying attention to the market like the Japanese and Koreans did? Or was it just bad luck to get caught in the perfect storm of relying on profitable gas-guzzlers in a time of skyrocketing gas prices and the credit crunch?

Now that cheap gas is back (for the moment), is anyone going to buy another new gas-guzzler? What about possibly worthwhile new technologies like the Chevy Volt? Why isn't the Saturn as popular as the Camry?

Do we need American automakers anyway? Toyota can make all the big pickups we need, right? And they are built in the US.

Your opinions?

[badstreetusa]

I'm against any and all bailouts...who's gonna bail the little men out...NOBODY...these companies don't deserve any favors...

[badstreetusa]

in theory these bailouts are supposed to help out the little guy in the long run...

I seriously hope that you don't actually believe that...we all saw who the AIG bailout benefits went to didn't we?

[Bones]

This is what the bail-out's is doing for the "Little Man".

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6230818&page=1

All of these "Big" investment companies coming to "Who's" rescue, after they have received bail out money?:scratchchin:

Bones

[DJ Tak]

I'm going to respond to a couple questions and statements that were made in this thread.

The primary cause of the failure of the American automative industry falls completely on the shoulders of the UAW and the individual car deisgners. Your avg worker in Detroit plants are making $27 an hour. There is no system in place to reward individual workers as well as punish workers with the UAW getting involved. The workers were too greedy and now they are feeling the fallout effects. The individual designers in Detroit have not made a car in the past 20 years that can compete with an import, except for the Mustang and Corvette. Everything else is pure garbage. When they do get it right, 9/10 times it is because they copied something that was created overseas.

PJ mentioned he lost 30k. In reality, unless you were in the process of selling all your stocks/mutual funds etc. you have not lost anything. Remember one thing from this stock market "crash" if you take nothing else out of it: The market was so full of inflated earnings that it was bound to dump on us. P/E ratios, quarterly reports and all the other market indicators were readily available for the average person to view. Too bad people rely on the advice of a broker or "financial advisor". I take it that you are in your 30's, so you have plenty of time to recoup, especially if you are doing recurring investing. If you put all your eggs in one basket and you didn't diversify your holdings, you should be upset at only one person; yourself.

[vvloc]

By KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writer – 30 mins ago

"Pelosi, D-Calif., said Tuesday she was confident that lawmakers would consider "emergency and limited financial assistance" for the auto industry under the $700 billion bailout measure that passed Congress in October. She urged the outgoing Bush administration to support a compromise.

"White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said Tuesday the companies had made business decisions "over the years that have led to this situation, but we have gone as far as we can with the authority Congress has given in order to help industries." But she said the White House was open to helping the auto industry"

"Obama has urged the Bush administration to do more to help the industry and aides said he raised the issue with President Bush on Monday in an Oval Office meeting. Officials familiar with the conversation said the president replied he was open to the idea."

You can choose to interpret this as you wish, but to me this is politico-speak for "done-deal."

[vvloc]

"The management of the car companies formerly known as the Big Three -- soon to be the Medium Two, if G.M. and Chrysler merge -- brought this upon themselves. Yes, the economic and credit meltdown has hit them hard, but it has hit all American companies. The tragedy of Detroit is that for years it simply refused to listen to those of us who begged them to build fuel-efficient cars. Indeed, before we hand them more money, let's reflect on a little history.

When I was at the Department of Energy in the 1990s, we partnered with G.M., Ford and Chrysler to speed the technological development of hybrid gasoline-electric cars, given that increased fuel efficiency and advanced hybrids vehicles were (and remain) clearly the best hope for cutting vehicle greenhouse gas emissions and ending our oil addiction. This partnership was an informal deal between the Clinton administration and the car companies. We did not pursue fuel economy standards and the car companies promised to develop a triple-efficiency car (80 miles per gallon) by 2004.

G.M., in particular, which had had a technological lead in electric drive trains, allowed its No. 1 competitor, Toyota, to achieve a stunning seven-year head start in what is certain to be this century's primary drive train, that of the hybrid gas-electric Prius.

G.M. was publicly criticizing the future of hybrid technology as late as January 2004, and announced later in that year a halfhearted effort to catch up to Toyota.

And for this they are to be rewarded with billions in taxpayer money?

Not without major strings attached, they shouldn't be rewarded. We know that even with a bailout, tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost, as the industry downsizes to match the reality of its mistaken management decisions as to what kind of cars will sell.

This isn't socialism. And it isn't nationalization of the auto industry. It is immunization of the auto industry against the seemingly fatal disease of mental decay."

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/11/12/barack_obama_detroit/

[Old Timer]

I say let 'em tank. Thewy have had 35 years to get it right. If they tank under chap.11, they will come back slim enough for competition. :first:

[leahjackson]

I say let 'em tank. Thewy have had 35 years to get it right. If they tank under chap.11, they will come back slim enough for competition. :first:

This now stands a pretty good chance under the new administration (from tonight’s Marketplace on NPR.)

Robert Reich, Obama’s economic advisor, would let the big corporations in trouble deal with it by Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Reorganization puts the financial hit on those who took the risks – shareholders, creditors, and executives. NOT on the Treasury. (In the case of GM it looks like the shareholders are already bleeding – sorry PJ)

[Bones]

One of the things that I've noticed, nobody has actually attacked what I was referring to..:scratchchin:

Bones:old:

[DoctorP]

I say let 'em tank. Thewy have had 35 years to get it right. If they tank under chap.11, they will come back slim enough for competition. :first:

I agree totally. Let 'em fold. Someone else will swoop in and start up something...Land of Opportunity right? :scratchchin:

[leahjackson]

One of the things that I've noticed, nobody has actually attacked what I was referring to..:scratchchin:

Bones:old:

If you mean that article, I don't think anyone would support luxury bennies for those executives.

The real serious issue is the 3 million or so families that are linked to the auto industry. Union wages might be a thing of the past, but the companies left standing will need to meet the demand for vehicles and there will be some sort of employment.

[Bones]

As posted by Leah:

If you mean that article, I don't think anyone would support luxury bennies for those executives.

Actually, I meant exactly that.

When I first heard about this massive bailout, I told the wife that this is going to happen:

"The big companies will get money from the Government. Once they get that money, business goes on as normal, and the guy's in charge will keep spending as normal. It may take a few months, but......."

It happened almost immediately with the folks at Leahman Brothers, as well AIG.

No surprises at this end.:rolleyes:

Bones

[kombu_kid]

The big 3 had also "put all their eggs in one basket".......trucks & SUVs for the past few decades. Then the price of oil ramped up, and they got caught with their pants down......AGAIN. Funny how history repeats itself. I don't understand either, why these companies just don't go bankrupt, then come back leaner and meaner.

On the Tom Leykis show yesterday, they were mentioning that this GM bailout won't work anyway because at the rate that their ship is sinking (servicing their debt, no desirable vehicles to sell, etc) the end is inevitable.

I am against bailing out companies by the gov't. People are now saying that the companies standing in line waiting for a bailout is out the door......and around the block. It stands to reason.......when they're handing out free money, which company wouldn't declare they're in dire straits? The U.S. Gov't is appearing desperate, lost and reactionary to this whole mess.

Did ya'll hear about Bernanke's 2 trillion dollar bailout......where he wouldn't even divulge where it went?.........this is some scary sh** going on right now.

[ryukyuboi]

I'm going to respond to a couple questions and statements that were made in this thread.

The primary cause of the failure of the American automative industry falls completely on the shoulders of the UAW and the individual car deisgners. Your avg worker in Detroit plants are making $27 an hour. There is no system in place to reward individual workers as well as punish workers with the UAW getting involved. The workers were too greedy and now they are feeling the fallout effects. The individual designers in Detroit have not made a car in the past 20 years that can compete with an import, except for the Mustang and Corvette. Everything else is pure garbage. When they do get it right, 9/10 times it is because they copied something that was created overseas.

PJ mentioned he lost 30k. In reality, unless you were in the process of selling all your stocks/mutual funds etc. you have not lost anything. Remember one thing from this stock market "crash" if you take nothing else out of it: The market was so full of inflated earnings that it was bound to dump on us. P/E ratios, quarterly reports and all the other market indicators were readily available for the average person to view. Too bad people rely on the advice of a broker or "financial advisor". I take it that you are in your 30's, so you have plenty of time to recoup, especially if you are doing recurring investing. If you put all your eggs in one basket and you didn't diversify your holdings, you should be upset at only one person; yourself.


I don't know how you can claim that the primary cause of the failure of the automobile industry in the US is a union of workers, and no mention of management bearing any responsibility, or also being a large part of the primary cause. To me, management should shoulder more blame. Management lacked vision and direction. Management failed to read the writing on the wall. Management was too greedy and failed to adjust to economic realities.

In a sense, management put all of their eggs in one basket, and did not diversify. Management has itself to blame.

[ryukyuboi]

Giving the automobile industry more taxpayer money is like giving an alcoholic another drink. How helpful is that?

[P_chan]

I say let them tank.....though I'll miss the corvette:D. Seriously though, I agree with takeo. One of the reasons no one buys American cars anymore is because they're not designed as well as Japanese or European cars. When I worked valet I'd drive in a brand new Camery, Audi, or accord and it felt like a solid well built car. Smooth shifting, handled bumps nicely, doors closed with a nice solid thud. But when I sat in a Impala, Taurus, or Stratus it felt cheap. Lot's of little rattles and noises while driving, didn't drive as smooth as the imports, when you closed the door it sounded flimsy, and overall it felt less refined. Not to mention the interior look like a plastic piece of crap and wasn't very ergonomic. Sure there were American cars I enjoyed driving but overall the imports were more fun and well designed.

As far as them losing jobs....you know back in 2006 I think it was that ford closed a bunch of plants, around 14 of them, and a bunch of people lost jobs. While Toyota is opening up new plants in the states and creating jobs. So when someone says that you're not supporting American workers by buying a Japanese car I give them a :rolleyes:.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2006-01-23-ford-q4_x.htm

http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/toyota-opens-new-plant-in-mississippi-51137.aspx

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/36323/toyota_opens_second_facility_in_michigan_plant_aim s_to_add_1100_jobs_by_2010.aspx

So bottom line....I'll continue to buy a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan becuase they're better than American made cars (unless I ever get my corvette:D).

[vvloc]

I don't know how you can claim that the primary cause of the failure of the automobile industry in the US is a union of workers, and no mention of management bearing any responsibility, or also being a large part of the primary cause. To me, management should shoulder more blame. Management lacked vision and direction. Management failed to read the writing on the wall. Management was too greedy and failed to adjust to economic realities.

In a sense, management put all of their eggs in one basket, and did not diversify. Management has itself to blame.

The primary cause of the failure of the American automative industry falls completely on the shoulders of the UAW and the individual car deisgners. Your avg worker in Detroit plants are making $27 an hour.

OMG, They should be ashamed of themselves - $27/hr.!!! How you read ANYTHING recently about the chasm of pay disparity gwb and his boys have created between workers and management???

Blaming unions has been a canard of the rabid right for as long as I can remember.

Gotta agree COMPLETELY with Ryukyuboi on this one:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=167488&postcount=9

[Asshat]

There is a national securityy issue at hand when large sectors of a manufacturing base go away. There has been the issue of tarriffs or the lack thereof on partnerships with foreign manufacturers operating in and shipping to America.

Crappy vehicles or not, no one is buying anything right now due to other economic concerns. This is the cause, not the big three, unions, or quality. Cars simply are not selling, and how long can any company operate with no one buying their product?

We remember that Lee Iacocca got money and leased vehicle concessions from the US Gov in the mid 70's right?

[Asshat]

Let the companies fail.. sounds like an easy decision... but there are serious ramifications across america when that happens... GM fails.. shuts down all plants.. lays of all workers.. workers get on unemployment.. workers cant afford bills.. now the mortgage fiasco is even worse.

So suddenly, this is "your" decision. What do you do?

Obama is going to have the Gov of Illinois on his staff. Guess which way she is going to recommend?

This is a done deal. The automakers will be bailed out, and if recent history is any indication, the US Gov will have some ownership in those industries.

What's next, socialized industry? State-owned businesses? It's all scary to me.

[Asshat]

i would NIX the stimulus packages.... i dont see the point in spending more money we dont have.......

Initial estimates are a loss of 3 million jobs. That is just with the auto industry. The rest follows suit.

i would end the war in iraq and funnel the funds saved from that war into an "economic repair package" this would be ongoing... every quarter X amount of dollars goes into this program.......

This would reduce the burden on the tax payer. However, other undustry heavily invested in Iraq would also loose and still....cost jobs.

i would restructure the current bailout plans that focus on the corporations and put the focus on the people who need the help... i.e.. unemployment benefits for those who lose their jobs.... if they lost their job due to layoffs like we have seen lately in the financial sector their benefits would be indefinite and case by case.......

We already know the indefinite benefits breed indefinite unemployment. There are already plenty of cottage industries paying under the table. This would increase, and the burden would be on the working tax payer to fund these benefits.

only provide bailout money to automakers who revamp their processes to incorporate hybrid technology into ALL of their vehicles.......

Hybrid technology in it's current form is not a viable replacement for oil. Government aid on R@D is what is needed. The automakers need cash for payroll, retirement and vehicles on the showroom floor. Giving them cash and telling them to spend it on hydrid tech is the same as giving them no money.

homeowners who fell prey to the predatory lending practices of the banks and such will get a renegotiated fair value mortgage with a manageable fixed interest rate.......

You advocate giving money to banks then to weather the storm caused by homeowners paying less on interest and principle? Lending practices were not predatory, they were simply lax. Borrowers bear responsibility in loans that were above their means....and simply refusing to pay because the home is loosing value is what we are talking about here in many cases.

continue to let the Bush tax cuts expire but provide tax incentives to companies who come back to american soil to provide jobs for us workers.. "these tax cuts would have to be very substantial" if we get that right it will help our economy........

Very substantial wouldn't cut it. What about the rest of the employer issues like workman's comp, and several expensive safety regulations. How about unions? A factory in Mexico pays 5 bucks an hour and nothing else. That same factory in the US pays 35 with salary, medical, workmans comp, and safety equipment. What part of that should the fed reduce?

i would propose a 1 yr tax hike across the board.... 1 yr for all americans to sacrifice a little to help out for the greater good....

So people like me could go from paying 33% to something more? I'll gladly pay when everyone else does. When limits are placed for people on subsistance. When it gets fair. Right now, the middle class is screwed. Your proposals call for an extension of that screwing. :)

[DoctorP]

only provide bailout money to automakers who revamp their processes to incorporate hybrid technology into ALL of their vehicles...




Hybrid technology in it's current form is not a viable replacement for oil. Government aid on R@D is what is needed. The automakers need cash for payroll, retirement and vehicles on the showroom floor. Giving them cash and telling them to spend it on hydrid tech is the same as giving them no money.



Thank you for noting that AH...Everyone screams HYBRID TECH...:rolleyes: It's not ready for mass rollout yet, and the cost of the vehicles over the long term is still not known. Such as mechanical malfunctions, repair bills and whatnot. Average Joe Mechanic can't work on these things in his home garage.

I'm a huge environmentalist, and I still am not sold on Hybrids. What they should do however is get smaller and more efficient with their vehicles.

Not saying you are the one screaming HYBRID PJ....your post just happened to be there.

[Asshat]

good thing i am not making those decisions huh...

i am pretty good managing my own finances... the rest of the country... probably not soo good.. lol


how would you fix it...??

I am in the same boat as you PJ. I don't have a clue. I know there are intangibles out there that most of us can not consider. I touched on the safety requirements under OSHA, but there is much more. The treaties and agreements between other countries also affect this, but to what degree? We allow Toyota into the US, and in return, we get what? It definitely isn't Chevy in Japan.

I am not afraid of socialism. I like the concept. But I am afraid of applying socialism on the backs of people like me and you who are employed and bust our asses trying to save for a rainy day...while others who make more than we do, are advised by their personal lawyers to stop payment on their 500K home because it's now a poor investment.

I don't feel like giving my money to a company ran by CEO's who own five properties over 5000 square feet, not including indoor pool and sports car stable.

Fix tort, fix drug prices, insurance prices. Apply gov regulations where they need to be applied. Invest my money in alternate energy. I don't want a hand out. I just want a fair shake.

[leahjackson]

i am an admitted SUV lover.. the bigger the better...

i was happy to see that GM has come out with Hybrid Tahoes and Escalades...

There's nothing wrong per se with SUV-like vehicles. They can be built with energy-conscious materials, etc. I have a Japanese sorta-SUV and I like how easy it is to get people and stuff in and out. What is wrong is putting enormous engines in them. The graduated tax on engine displacement makes a lot of sense to me. My 1800 cc motor will push me fast enough for Okinawa, and I have driven 1600 cc cars in the US and never got caught in traffic. My daughter drives a 1500-cc Toyota at 7500 feet elevation and it's a little marginal but that's what the gearbox is for.

Regarding tariffs, I believe you can buy Fords here. Not many US mfrs make RHD models though. But did you know that BUICK is a top seller in China? Yep, those ******* commies are lapping up your Dad's Buicks!

[OtisPMerriweather]

Let me try to give you another perspective from someone who has seen the inner workings of the auto industry.

In another life, I worked at Nissan Motor Manufacturing Corporation as an engineering intern. I worked here for about four years during college- working a semester, going to college a semester. I got to learn a great deal about things most people never realize about cars.

The thing most of you don't seem to realize is that letting not one or two, but three large auto manufacturers simply fail is that these things cause a chain reaction. For example, Ford operates 95 plants worldwide. They don't just sell SUVs to soccer moms. Many of the fire trucks, ambulances, utility vans, tow trucks, etc. are made primarily by American automakers. Selling cars on the showroom floor is but a small part of automaker revenue.

But this is just the tip of the iceberg. What most people don't realize is how many different companies it takes to produce a car. The glass in the windshields aren't made by Ford or Nissan, they are made by small companies in America. The nuts and bolts and washers in a car aren't made by Chevy or Toyota, they are made by small companies such as the American Fastener Technologies Corporation, located in Gibsonia, PA. Ford
plans to produce 685,000 cars during the FIRST quarter of this year- if you only use ten screws per vehicle, that's almost 7 million screws. You can see how this adds up for people across the country, not just GM CEOs.

As a matter of fact, the notion that Japanese cars are somehow better than American cars because they are foreign is totally ridiculous, because many of the Japanese cars are built by American workers designed by American engineers, and to cut costs on importing parts, they are built with parts manufacured in America! When I was working there, we were under pressure to find American suppliers for even the tiniest part on each vehicle, because the cost savings from tariffs were so great.

One last point to make, and this may be alleviated by universal health care, is that these automakers spend billions of dollars on post-retirement health care. As all of those millions of workers in the auto industry over the years retire, American companies have tried to take care of American workers by ensuring that loyal employees are taken care of when they retire. We all know how high medication and doctor visits cost, especially for older people. If these companies are simply allowed to fail, how many of our elder citizens will be left without a way to get the care they need? Hopefully, universal healthcare will hep ease some of the burden in that regard- depending on it's implementaion.

So things are not always as black-and-white as they seem. I support keeping our automakers afloat.

[P_chan]

Yeah I'm not sold on hybrids either. Let's not forget that the old batteries from hybrid/electric cars will also become toxic waste and if everyone drove one I foresee a problem with disposing of the used batteries.

As far as American cars being better made then imports......sorry pj but I disagree with you. I know it's just my opinion but from my experience driving all types of cars on average an American car felt a lot cheaper than a European or Japanese car. Hell I drove old European and Japanese cars that drove better than brand new GMs, Chryslers, and Fords. When it comes to big trucks I agree with you, America makes them best. But I like to get a little more then "n/a" for my gas mileage. My old civic with it's 32 city and 39 highway gas mileage spoiled me:D. That and I don't see the point in owning a huge SUV unless I need it.

But all this is off topic so it really doesn't matter.

:edit: Oh and I'm not saying Japanese and European cars are superior just because they're from Japan or Europe. It's from my personal experience driving many different makes and models.

[Asshat]

So things are not always as black-and-white as they seem. I support keeping our automakers afloat.

Good points as usual Otis, but a couple of things- Recently, the UAW conceded a lot of ground just to keep these industries afloat. Health care was one of them.

Also, I am enough of a car enthusiast to know where the parts are made, and where the technology comes from.

Yamaha did most of the R&D for Toyota's cyl heads. Very few of the current offerings from Japan are borrowed technology. Unlike the FJ-40 Land Cruisers of the 70's and 80's which sported Chevy six's.

The 3 million people working in the auto industry cover those suppliers you mentioned. Heck, most of the cars are made via robotics anyway.

In your post, I was looking for the most important thing of interest to me, and that is "mark up." I am curious to know what kind of deal someone could get at a Chevy dealership now with cash in their pocket. Floor space is expensive and the manufacturer gets paid for vehicles sitting on the floor. Is it cheaper yet to sell the vehicles at cost?

[leahjackson]

Let me try to give you another perspective from someone who has seen the inner workings of the auto industry.


The thing most of you don't seem to realize is that letting not one or two, but three large auto manufacturers simply fail is that these things cause a chain reaction. For example, Ford operates 95 plants worldwide. They don't just sell SUVs to soccer moms. Many of the fire trucks, ambulances, utility vans, tow trucks, etc. are made primarily by American automakers. Selling cars on the showroom floor is but a small part of automaker revenue.

The nuts and bolts and washers in a car aren't made by Chevy or Toyota, they are made by small companies such as the American Fastener Technologies Corporation, located in Gibsonia, PA.

One last point to make, and this may be alleviated by universal health care, is that these automakers spend billions of dollars on post-retirement health care. Hopefully, universal healthcare will hep ease some of the burden in that regard- depending on it's implementaion.

So things are not always as black-and-white as they seem. I support keeping our automakers afloat.

All great points Otis. But I think when pundits, experts, and ordinary folk say "let them fail", they mean let them undergo reorganization under bankruptcy. That could mean for example that Ford would sell off Saab, or GM would shut down it's most unprofitable production facilities. The companies could keep manufacturing what there is demand for. But there's the rub - how can there be demand for cars (as opposed to fire trucks, etc.) when ordinary people can't get car loans?

In today's news it looks like a large part of the bailout money will be redirected to the credit institutions and to help the truly innocent homeowners, which is a sensible way to attack the root of the problem.

[DJ Tak]

I was reading something today that mentioned 1 in every 7 American jobs are related to the auto industry in one aspect or another.

[P_chan]

That could mean for example that Ford would sell off SaabSaab is owned by GM:D. Ford owns Jaguar and Mazda IIRC.

[leahjackson]

Saab is owned by GM:D. Ford owns Jaguar and Mazda IIRC.

OK。thanks for the correction. Maybe that means your new Corvette will have an akvavit glass holder instead of a 40-oz. cupholder.:thumbup1:

But actually, under a reorganization GM could keep making profitable stuff like Corvettes.

Ford owns a 49% stake in Mazda I think. That's why you see the occasional Ford Ixia (sp) around that looks suspiciously like a Premacy.

[P_chan]

Well PCHan.. I have not only driven but actually OWNED many vehicles in my lifetime.. here is where i get MY perspective from... timeline of my vehicles owned from 1st to last..

96 Honda Accord - 17th Bday gift from my pop..
96 Pontiac Grand AM - bought this my senior yr when my dad took the honda keys away... ( i actually liked this car better than the honda..) no problems either way with either one of the
97 Lexus GS300- Traded in both cars.. honda was paid in full by dad but put in my name after graduation... Wonderful Vehicle.. I fell in love with everything lexus... car got wrecked in 98 or 99 when some drunk german chick rear ended me.. total loss..
2000 Dodge Avenger-- bought that to replace the lexus as i refused to have another NICE car while in germany... i loved that damn car....
98 Mitsubishi Eclipse SPyder... ( that was my other halfs vehicle )

Back in the US now...
2004 BMW 540iS other half bought it in germany and had it shipped to the states
2005 Lincoln Navigator.... My favorite vehicle i ever owned....... PERIOD

NOW in Japan--- sold the other vehicles before we moved here..
1995 or so Toyota Aristo... Worst piece of shit i have ever driven.. cant wait until i get back to the states to get a decent vehicle

......and you're point is?

Sweet and I've driven each one of those cars on more than several occasions. I've driven brand new ones, slightly used ones, and old ones. I've seen new ones age because we got a lot of repeat customers. I've seen ones taken care of and I've seen ones beat to shit. Overall, I've noticed that the imports ran better and aged better than the domestic ones. Even in the hands of the nasty customers who didn't take care of their vehicles.

I was not a fan of the navigator might as well have saved money and got the similar Ford Expedition. Seen tons of both of those that had only 30,000 miles on them and they drove like they had 100,000. Sure some of them were crappy due to owner neglect (dubs don't do a suspension good) but I wasn't a fan of how they preformed overall. Just seems like a waste of money to spend 50K on a "luxury" vehicle that didn't feel all that luxurious. My favorite big car to drive was the Tahoe, still like those but I haven't driven the new (2005+) ones.

oh and I see you loved your avenger right? You know that is pretty much a Mitsubishi right? One look at the instrument cluster would tell you that. And as far as your car GS300 being crap, I blame that on previous owners "I'll only have it for two years so **** it" attitude.

[P_chan]

OK。thanks for the correction. Maybe that means your new Corvette will have an akvavit glass holder instead of a 40-oz. cupholder.:thumbup1:

But actually, under a reorganization GM could keep making profitable stuff like Corvettes.

Ford owns a 49% stake in Mazda I think. That's why you see the occasional Ford Ixia (sp) around that looks suspiciously like a Premacy.

Yeah I noticed the ford/mazda connection while looking at Mazda 6s that have a ford V6 in them.

Who knows....maybe my corvette will have the ignition on the center floor console:D

[Asshat]

Well PCHan.. I have not only driven but actually OWNED many vehicles in my lifetime.. here is where i get MY perspective from... timeline of my vehicles owned from 1st to last..

96 Honda Accord - 17th Bday gift from my pop..
96 Pontiac Grand AM - bought this my senior yr when my dad took the honda keys away... ( i actually liked this car better than the honda..) no problems either way with either one of the
97 Lexus GS300- Traded in both cars.. honda was paid in full by dad but put in my name after graduation... Wonderful Vehicle.. I fell in love with everything lexus... car got wrecked in 98 or 99 when some drunk german chick rear ended me.. total loss..
2000 Dodge Avenger-- bought that to replace the lexus as i refused to have another NICE car while in germany... i loved that damn car....
98 Mitsubishi Eclipse SPyder... ( that was my other halfs vehicle )

Back in the US now...
2004 BMW 540iS other half bought it in germany and had it shipped to the states
2005 Lincoln Navigator.... My favorite vehicle i ever owned....... PERIOD

LMAO! I just tried to list all of the vehicles I have owned. No way. I stopped at about 20, and realized I had left out many others.

My favorite vehicle was my 1999 Ford F150 4X4. All of my Japanese cars have been good to me though, and since I know a bit about working on them, far cheaper to maintain.

Of course replacing the generator brushes on my 1962 260 cu in Ford was way cheaper than an alternator on my 1995 Toyota.

[uriel]

p_chan, ford is actually owns just part of mazda, and nowhere near the majority at that.

[P_chan]

My point is... there is a huge difference between driving some cars a few or even several times.. and owning them...And my point is you have no idea of my experiences with the cars you've owned plus the other models I've driven on a regular basis. You pay a guy to drive your car for ten minutes and day and you start to notice things about the car. Included when it start rides rough and how soon it after it was bought it started riding rough. Hell they pay people to review cars and they drive them less then I've driven the same models.

But I guess I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to my own personal experiences:rolleyes:

I deal with it for 2 and a half more years than back to what I call normal life..Which is why you have so many lemons getting bought and sold on base because people just put up with them.

[OtisPMerriweather]

If I might interject a bit here- again, unless you are comparing high-end Japanese vehicles such as Lexus and Infinitis to high-end American cars such as Cadillacs and Lincolns, the comparison between American cars an Japanese cars doesn't really hold a lot of weight because so much of so many Japanese cars sold in the last 10 years or so were produced entirely in America. It's too expensive to import Honda civics from Japan, and as a matter of fact, I don't think Civics are even produced in Japan anymore. They all come from Ohio, and maybe Canada. I know a lot of Nissans are made in TN and Mexico.

Production quality is greatly impacted by the number of any given vehicle produced in any given year by a manufacturer. Therefore, it isn't even fair to compare the quality of Porsche to the quality of Chevrolet, because so many more Chevys are built than there are Porsches. The initial quality of Corvettes, while higher than that of Camaros, for instance, all gets lumped into Chevrolet's ratings.

Ultimately, when it comes to quality and cars, you get what you pay for. An Escalade or a Navigator is going to have much better initial quality than just about any Toyota you can buy, period.

You can find the initial quality ratings by industry standards by Googling J.D. Powers or Consumer Reports.

[P_chan]

i never said you dont know what you are talking about in your experiences...

they are simply that your experiences... nothing more..

just like mine are just that.. nothing more..

but they are entirely two different sets of experiences..

if you are telling me you can equate driving some cars or whatever you did... to owning and servicing and all of the other things that go along with a car i am afraid i pegged you being a lot smarter....

just doesnt add up.. what you fail to realize is you are presenting your OPINION as fact...

I am presenting my OPINION as OPINION.... your comparison between the expedition and the navigator.. yeah they have common parts.. but there are MANY MAJOR differences.. Having driven my Navi across country countless times.. nothing beats it for comfort amenities and overall performance.. the drawback being the gas costs.. That is my INFORMED opinion...



We need a smack forehead smiley

Of course they are two totally different sets of experience. I've driven all types of vehicles, from the bottom of the line to the top. And overall I say that based on how they drive the imports seem to stay "new" a lot longer then the American cars. Also, when I drove two brand new cars the import tended to feel like a better made car while I was driving it. I didn't own them so I can't comment on how much they were serviced or how much it cost but common sense would tell me the imports are more expensive to maintain. I also saw quite a large number of the same cars on a daily basis so as they aged I noticed that the imports tended to age better.

So what I'm trying to say that I based my preference for imports on all the different car models I had driven on a regular basis. Not trying to pass it off as fact (despite your misconceptions) just merely stating it.

the people they pay to review cars... have EXPERIENCE... they dont just take some young airmen and say.. hey go review this car..."whatever dude":rolleyes:

[P_chan]

If I might interject a bit here- again, unless you are comparing high-end Japanese vehicles such as Lexus and Infinitis to high-end American cars such as Cadillacs and Lincolns, the comparison between American cars an Japanese cars doesn't really hold a lot of weight because so much of so many Japanese cars sold in the last 10 years or so were produced entirely in America.

That depends on the demand for the vehicle. Because if there is a high demand for a Toyota I know they'll assemble them in japan and actually import them to the states. A family member bought a 2003 corolla when the new models first came out and they were extremely hard to come by. So they had to assemble the one they purchased in japan and then import it to the dealer. I'm pretty sure the same thing happened with the current toyota I drive now because right on the sticker is says "assembled in japan" rather then "designed by toyota, assembled in Ohio".

:edit: Oh and for the record I wasn't comparing low end vehicles to high end vehicles when I was driving them in my previous job. If I drove a brand new camery I'd compare it to a brand new impala or taurus. Or if I drove a new navigator I'd compare it to a new lexus LX 470 or infinity QX 56.

[Muku]

p_chan, ford is actually owns just part of mazda, and nowhere near the majority at that.

FYI only here nothing more nothing less.......:D

Ford owns something in the neighborhood of 30% to 35% of Mazda and if memory serves me right they also control it as well.

Ok here it is...... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda)

Further financial difficulties at Mazda during the 1990s (partly caused by losses related to the 1997 Asian financial crisis) caused Ford to increase its stake to a 33.9-percent controlling interest on 31 March 1997. In 1997, Henry Wallace was appointed President, and he set about restructuring Mazda and setting it on a new strategic direction.He laid out a new direction for the brand including the design of the present Mazda marque; he laid out a new product plan to achieve synergies with Ford, and he launched Mazda's digital innovation program to speed up the development of new products. At the same time, he started taking control of overseas distributors, rationalized dealerships and manufacturing facilities, and driving much needed efficiencies and cost reductions in Mazda's operations. Much of his early work put Mazda back into profitability and laid the foundations for future success. Ford executive Mark Fields, who took over as Mazda's CEO later, has been credited with expanding Mazda's new product lineup and leading the turnaround during the early 2000s. Ford's increased influence during the 1990s allowed Mazda to claim another distinction in history, having maintained the first foreign-born head of a Japanese car company (starting under Henry Wallace (Scottish)). The marque has since returned to a Japanese-born CEO, under Hisakazu Imaki since 2003.

[uriel]

so, even though I'm wrong, I'm still kinda right? awesome!

[leahjackson]

I don't think anyone ever knew the name Mazda in the US before the RX-7 and Miatas came on the scene. The 626 sedan had a decent reputation but never made it big. Why did Ford buy into it anyway? Maybe to get some decent small engines?

[Old Timer]

I don't think anyone ever knew the name Mazda in the US before the RX-7 and Miatas came on the scene. The 626 sedan had a decent reputation but never made it big. Why did Ford buy into it anyway? Maybe to get some decent small engines?


Beg to differ on that one......I used to have a rotary P/U 1973 type.

[Old Timer]

GM/ Ford/ Chrysler have been on a down swing since 1972/1973. Quality and attention to detail have been sporadic since. The unions have them in a pincer movement. The jobs have to go, Chapter 11 invoked for world clarity and financial position. I do not see away around it. Big/ huge problem regardless.

[Asshat]

Beg to differ on that one......I used to have a rotary P/U 1973 type.

Yep, we were racing them in the late 70's. (The sedans) There were a couple of speed shops who specialized in Mazdas at the time. Basically, tuning them consisted of getting more fuel to them and better ignition timing/spark. But it was cool to hold them at 13,000 RPM at a green light and blow the doors off a 396 Chevy between the traffic lights. (While they lasted)

[Old Timer]

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. , and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about: "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school degree, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a Ph.D.

[Asshat]

GM/ Ford/ Chrysler have been on a down swing since 1972/1973. Quality and attention to detail have been sporadic since. The unions have them in a pincer movement. The jobs have to go, Chapter 11 invoked for world clarity and financial position. I do not see away around it. Big/ huge problem regardless.

Agree again. They haven't produced a decent car since then. Gawd, remember the K cars? I had a V6 Firebird for awhile, and that too was a POS. Only exception would be the mid to late 70's trucks.

[leahjackson]

Agree again. They haven't produced a decent car since then. Gawd, remember the K cars? I had a V6 Firebird for awhile, and that too was a POS. Only exception would be the mid to late 70's trucks.

K cars LOL! But this morning on NPR (see, who can you believe nowadays?) they used the story of the Iacocca Chrysler bailout as an example of how it could work, and used the K-cars (and the minivans) as illustrations of great innovative cars. I had a Caravan and loved it* but the K-cars were gobbich.

* well, it was OK up to about 120,000 miles and then it was a pain.

[Old Timer]

K cars LOL! But this morning on NPR (see, who can you believe nowadays?) they used the story of the Iacocca Chrysler bailout as an example of how it could work, and used the K-cars (and the minivans) as illustrations of great innovative cars. I had a Caravan and loved it but the K-cars were gobbage.

:scratchchin:

Yes, but sellable garbage with a friendly financial atmosphere and available money for car loans. Different story now.

[leahjackson]

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. , and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about: "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school degree, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a Ph.D.

And this is why healthcare reform is going to get a serious hearing this time around. Too bad it took a major industry nearly collapsing to arrive at that.

[Old Timer]

Agree again. They haven't produced a decent car since then. Gawd, remember the K cars? I had a V6 Firebird for awhile, and that too was a POS. Only exception would be the mid to late 70's trucks.


Trucks.........different work ethic / product. :thumbup1:

[leahjackson]

I thought this was a nice idea (sorry - major math error! deleted it)