Police give prosecutors documents on Marine Corps mechanics

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The Naha District Prosecutor’s Office has received documents pertaining to the August 2004 crash of a Marine Corps helicopter in Ginowan from Okinawa Prefectural Police. The documents cite four U.

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[TheNoNamedOne]

Will it ever end??

I think that is the same question many Okinawans have been asking about the U.S. military presence here.

[Crazysix]

Ok this entire thing is really getting old. I understand the want for reduction of troops, but face it japan really doesnt have a military capable of defending itself, and everytime some one suggest that the country boster its forces, the majority cry and moan and remember WWII, get over it and stop using it as a crutch. This country (and prefecture) doesnt even like its own armed forces for what ever reason!!! The people cry and complain that the helicopter crashed , and yes it was unfortunate, but no recognition or thanks was given to the crew that could have have crashed it into any nearby neighborhood vice an empty university campus( yes i know ther were still people there for classes) but they weighed thier options and chose in my opinion a good choice, vice a crowded neighborhood or busy intersection.
All I am saying is you should be greatful every night you go to sleep under the blanket of protection and freedom we provide at the expense of our lives and a few freedoms that you(JAPANESE) have to give up, and then question and complain in the manner in which we provide it. This is one of the most ungreatful countries, in which I have been. One day we will be gone and you can have your empire again but i dont htink you will do too well as you did before. Anyone who responds to this please spare me the tear story about being conquered by the Japanese up to the rape, its played out and gets no more sympathy.

[socalheart]

Thoughtful queries. The MCAS Futenma was a landing strip before and during the war, right? The planes and helicopters flown back then were far more dangerous than the ones now, right? You think they're complaining about it more now because it's Americans flying? It's not like the landing strip has been hidden these three score, right?

I do understand their concerns. I also know that the landing strip was in place long before most of the local residents moved into the area. One would be hard-pressed not to notice the planes and helicopters flying around above the area before deciding to live there. Although, knowing how most of the locals drive, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't notice a C-130 buzzing their left buttock. :D Yes, I know housing and land and space and blahblahblah is scarce here. One still has a choice in where to live, whether it's under a flight path of a plane or helicopter or typhoon. I lived right next to the MCAS Futenma before I was married. I never worried about a plane or helicopter dropping on me. Although, the noise got really annoying while watching TV. heh.

[P_chan]

No it won't . Okinawans are extremely paranoid. I lived near the busiest airports in the world for most of my life and there was never a plain accident. People fear some of the dumbest things. The odds of a plain crashing into a residential district are very slim. Not to say it doesn't happen but it's slim. Of course that doesn't stop people from living like cowering little rats.

[Crazysix]

You guys hit right on the head,:first: I mean if you know there is an airport around wouldnt common sense say not to build your house there, or at least the govt. should have stepped in and said no buildings within x# of meters. I am happy to see Im not the only one on this rock that feels this way.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Crazysix, you are aware that many persons who lived on what are now parts of Futenma were forcibly displaced for a lot of its construction, don't you? Small communities had already dotted areas near present day Futenma before it was even built up as it is today.

You have things backwards.

[Crazysix]

Honestly it doesnt concern me , it may sound cold but, look all over the world, people are displaced, they should be thankful, that the land is being paid for. Before it was built up as today, well, maybe it wasnt as big as it was during WWII, but basically it was there and is still used today as a foward deployed operation airbase, The people that moved back did so knowing the dangers, just because they moved back to the land does it mean we should compromise regional security, and this was done with the full knowledge and acceptence of thier govt. So as you see all must make sacrafices, some more than others but still they are compensated, so why all the crying?

[Crazysix]

But let ask you this, when they build the new base at Schwab, and the locals move in all around that area and an incident ocurs, who will be more at fault? The Military for flying over a populated area or the IDIOTS who chose to live so close to the fence line?... guess where my money is going

[Muku]

Ok this entire thing is really getting old. I understand the want for reduction of troops, but face it japan really doesnt have a military capable of defending itself,
Actually I think you are a bit misinformed here. The JSDF, Japan Self Defense Force, which included their navy, air force and army are some of the most highly trained well equipped people in the world. The Japanese defense budget ranks 5th in the world at $35 billion dollars per year which is just behind China and GB at $37 billion per year, Russia at $64 billion and number one the US at $261 billion per year.
World Military Budgets (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pentagon_military/MilitaryBudgets_1998.html)

Do not forget here please that the Japanese navy has world class equipment. Their airforce is now in negotiations with the US government to be the first foreign nation to purchase the F22.

The JSDF is not a military but a defense force, by law, the Japanese can not have a military, they outlawed war after WWII and article 9 of the Japanese constitution has that written in it as well.
Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution/Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Constitution_of_Japan)

So as you see all must make sacrafices, some more than others but still they are compensated, so why all the crying?
Okinawan's have made more sacrifices in the name of peace than you and I can ever imagine. Do you know anything about the history here and what these people have had to sacrifice?

understand they have concerns about futenma,but it was an accident,not someone intentionally flying into the building.accidents will happen,now they offered to relocate but that was met with protest.

You miss out on the Okinawan's way of thinking on this and other military base issues. If the bases were not here these incidents wouldnt have happened. It is that plain and simple. Having a bit of insight into how the people here think might help you to understand better the reasons behind many of the people that protest issues like this.

One other thing to remember as well, Okinawan's generally speaking are realists, they know that it would be difficult to survive in the current world economy without the bases, and if you have ever seen a protest many of the people that participate are NOT Okinawan, they come from mainland.

[Muku]

Okay, if the bases were not here it wouldn't have happened i get that,but it seems that whenever something happens and it involves someone or something from a base it is blown out of proportions no matter how insignificant such as the service member who was arrested for "ringing a door bell"


See that's the thing, sure some issues get blown out of proportion but you, not wrongly either, are looking at it well from an American point of view. You and many others cant not see or fathom the reasons this issues are so major.

Did you hear about the Marine Amphib. vehicle that made a u-turn using the entrance driveway to the Prefectural School for the Handicapped?

It probably wasnt a big deal, however to the public it is a sign of insensitivety to the local population and how "they" feel as being hosts.

Would you like it if you were hosting someone at your house to run around like some military members do here? It might help to think about the situation if you were in their shoes. Many times I have done that and it was shocking to me at least how I felt. It was rather embarassing.

And as for people coming from mainland to protest,are Okinawans not capable of protesting for themselves??
Not exactly, the point is many Okinawan's do not really care about the bases being here. Sure they would be happier without them but they are not "trouble" makers by nature, and would rather have a peaceful equitable solution to the matter.

Plus the prefecture has hosted the bases for so many years not that some have given up caring. Others have the attitude that they dont **** where they eat, meaning the bases are their livelyhood whether that means working on the base, or having base property and getting yearly rent from the national government herre. Some people make a ton of cash just off of that.
The people come from mainland stirring up the pot and pressuring the authorities to do something.

Yet the same people are unwilling to take the pressure off Okinawa and have the bases moved to their prefectures. Rather hypocritical if you ask me.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I can't count how many times I continue to see the rather misleading statement that many of the base protestors at demonstrations are from Mainland. Makes me wonder how the airlines managed to bring all those people here for that time.

First of all, what is meant by "many"? 100, 1,000, 10,000? That is why it is misleading, because it is not qualified either numerically or as a percentage.

Sure, there is a certain number of Mainlanders who do stir the pot and lend their hand in organizing protests, but when I drive by protestors and look at them, for the most part, most of their physical characteristics are Okinawan. And many of my acquaintances who are Okinawan have attended the protests.

So, would someone please qualify "many" here, and give some support for that qualification. Thanks in advance.

[Muku]

So, would someone please qualify "many" here, and give some support for that qualification. Thanks in advance.

That is a fair question and unfortunately I can not give you numbers to verify the statement I made. But I will say that of course there are Okinawan's that are strongly against the bases as well.

Are you familiar with the two major unions that the Japanese base employees are a part of?

One of them believe it or not is 100% against the bases and the other is for the bases or should I say for working with the current Japanese administration to find an equitable solution to the base issues that face the Okinawan people.

[DoctorP]

I think one thing that would help to put things into perspective for many Americans is this: (and this happens often) Picture yourself and your family at home, asleep, or watching TV late at night. A drunk service member barges into your front door and lays down to sleep next to your wife or your 14 yr old daughter. Wouldn't you be pissed? And wouldn't you report it to the police and the local news? I sure as hell would...on top of beating the dumbass half to death! Now who is overreacting?

[Muku]

Wouldn't you be pissed? And wouldn't you report it to the police and the local news? I sure as hell would...on top of beating the dumbass half to death! Now who is overreacting?

Personally I think I would be on death row.:83:

[Karaoke Man]

The base jobs are miniscule...especially at Futenma. I think last count there were less than 200 locals working there. However, to the 2600 or so landowners who are receiving rent from the government for the use of Futenma it is a big deal. One of my Okinawan friends is one of those landowners and her family makes enough from those leases to live on and invest into other businesses on the island. When it is closed, the lease money will stop and they will complain that it isn't cleaned up and can't be used for anything without a huge outlay of moeny. Fortunately my friend has a career as well to sustain her (she is a chef), but the other jobs that her lease money creates will be gone. In fact, she lie the noise. She says it is the sound of yen. By the way, does anyone know what is planned for that land when (if) it ever closes. Rumor has it that certain factions on the mainland are trying to get the governemnet to legalize REAL gambling on Okinawa (and only Okinawa) and turn it into a Vegas East and use Futenma as the central hub for gambling on the island. Then Okinawa will truly be the Mississipppi of Japan.

[Muku]

Rumor has it that certain factions on the mainland are trying to get the governemnet to legalize REAL gambling on Okinawa (and only Okinawa) and turn it into a Vegas East and use Futenma as the central hub for gambling on the island

It wasnt just a rumour, back in roughly 2002 or so, and the central hub as you call it would have been in Itoman. However both the media and the NPA, National Policie Administration put pressure on to kill it off.

The idea has popped back up again recently but will die a sudden death again.

The base jobs are miniscule
It really isnt that miniscule however one other thing to remember is that many of the people who would lose their rent money from the base being returned will finally have to get a job and learn how to work.

I have very little pity for people that are doing nothing on my tax money. Because it sure the hell isnt the US government that is paying for the bases and the rent to the landowners.

[socalheart]

No lets say for a moment ALL the military leaves okinawa what do you think will happen??

Here's my guess on this:

The JSDF would take over the most usable parts of the US installations, like perhaps Futenma airfield, Kadena ammo dump and Naval hospital, to name a few. The Kadena airfield might be used as a commercial or cargo airport. The JWTC cight be used as a JSDF training ground or camp. For the most part, the housing could be turned into low rent government housing. Then again, the government may not want any of it, and the land owners might require the land in its "original condition".

The local economy would suffer for a while. People who work on the base wouldn't have jobs for a few months at least. Some of the local small businesses that relied mostly on military patronage would likely close. A few of the large contractors might have some difficulties as well.

For the most part, Okinawa would be fine with the amount of tourism it already has from the mainland and business from the local economy. It may take five or ten years, but they'll pull out of a recession in time.

[Fonze]

sometimes I wonder if the US would have just came and gone how China and Russia would be open to your complaints about everything. Thats exactly what would have happened and the mean insensitve Americans wouldn't be.

I would also like to see what persentage of Okinawans want us out, and if there really serious about there land returns why not ask the really invaders of this island for there independence and see how fast that happens. Thats alot of money from mainland, this might be the next Haiti.

Finally as to the peaceful Okinawans history, ive read about the violent Ryuku kingdom and their past and the reason there peaceful is not on purpose but because Japan put them in there place and made them cowardice and they have no other choice but to be peaceful

All in All I like the Oki's there very nice respectfull people

[TheNoNamedOne]

sometimes I wonder if the US would have just came and gone how China and Russia would be open to your complaints about everything. Thats exactly what would have happened and the mean insensitve Americans wouldn't be.

Are you implying that they should be forever grateful to us, and that gratefulness should prevent them from every complaining about us or hoping for an island without military personel on it?

Kinda like self imposed forever cowering at the victors?

[Muku]

Finally as to the peaceful Okinawans history, ive read about the violent Ryuku kingdom and their past and the reason there peaceful is not on purpose but because Japan put them in there place and made them cowardice and they have no other choice but to be peaceful


I would love to hear what books you were reading that had this written in them. Please put some links here to back up your version of history.

Before I comment anymore I want to give you an opportunity to back up your claims first. Otherwise it is just heresay.

[Fonze]

ive seen part on the Hai Sai on the base access channel and on wikipedia

[Muku]

on wikipedia
Links please at least to the wikipedia site.

[Fonze]

to the prosecutor i never implied that but you do make it seem that only the bases should give into demands. I do wish a day that OKI is free from bases but, Japan is a strong American ally and bases will be here for the foreseable future. why not ask for independence from mainland if OKI really cares about there Island

[TheNoNamedOne]

Uchi, I think Fonze just worded the post in question you are asking for links to rather poorly.

There is no doubt that the history of Okinawa was a violent one. I am sure you are aware of the three kingdoms and warring that went on between them, and prior to them the small feudal aji that warred amongst one another -- not to mention the subjugating of outlaying islands from Amami to Yaeyama.

I think Fonze used a poor choice of words with "cowardice." Perhaps "weak-kneed" is a better one, or abject apathy -- a common Japanese trait that seems to have proliferated throughout Okinawa. Though, even "cowardly" is not so far off as a term that could be used to describe them.

Okinawa really did not resist their own subjugation by the daimyo of Kyushu in any long protracted fight against it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

to the prosecutor i never implied that but you do make it seem that only the bases should give into demands.

They should give in to quite a lot of the demands. I am not saying they should just pack and leave, but the present situation now is quite unfair and a heavy burden for such a small percentage of the land mass of Japan to host up to approx 60% of the forces we have stationed here.

Why not ask for independence from mainland if OKI really cares about there Island

Because Okinawa doesn't really care about independence from Japan. They just want the burdens of excessive military personel here. That is all. It is quite simple, and bringing in the thought of independence is nothing more than a red herring meant to obfuscate their true wishes.

[Muku]

the reason there peaceful is not on purpose but because Japan put them in there place and made them cowardice and they have no other choice but to be peaceful

Prosecutor I was pretty much refering to this. Sure there is a violent part to it's history, however by nature the Okinawan's are nonviolent and this quote here is like you said poorly worded, it doesnt have anything to do with being cowards.

It was out of self-preservation.

[Muku]

Because Okinawa doesn't really care about independence from Japan. They just want the burdens of excessive military personel here. That is all. It is quite simple, and bringing in the thought of independence is nothing more than a red herring meant to obfuscate their true wishes.
I hope you meant they just dont want the burdens.

Did you know that there is a small group of people that actually want independence for the Ryukyu Island's? It is a fringe group at best.
Ryukyu Independent Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Independent_Party)


Also there are some that also rue the day that the island was returned to Japanese control, they wanted to keep Okinawa under the control of the US and make it a protectorate like Guam.

[Fonze]

youre right prosecutor i did use the wrong word maybe submissive and yes had no other choice uchi , it was for self preservation

[Fonze]

yes it probably the wrong word (cowardice) maybe submissive.
And yes it was for self preservation, but they had no choice

[TheNoNamedOne]

...however by nature the Okinawan's are nonviolent ...

"By nature" ? I don't know, Uchi. That is a pretty bold statement. To me that implies something biological that can be shown to be true as fact. I just don't see it -- either in history or present social life.

As humans, Okinawan's share the natural ability towards violence as much as any of us. Sure, forces exert on them that may cover that and influence it, but it is misleading to caste their race as nonviolent by nature, as some inherent attribute of theirs.

It was out of self-preservation.

Are there things that require the opposite of cowardice that gives up self-preservation in search of higher standards to live by? I know this sounds like a romanticization of acts that lead to death, but is there any truth or value to one of the principles that the world has undoubtedly been exposed to -- "Give me liberty or give me death." ?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I hope you meant they just dont want the burdens.

Yes, Uchi. That is what I meant. Sorry for that important deletion.

Did you know that there is a small group of people that actually want independence for the Ryukyu Island's? It is a fringe group at best.
Ryukyu Independent Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Independent_Party)

Yes. Most Okinawans view them as off the wall and out of touch with reality. "Fringe" does not adequately explain the view most Okinawans view them as.

Also there are some that also rue the day that the island was returned to Japanese control, they wanted to keep Okinawa under the control of the US and make it a protectorate like Guam.

Again. So small as of now that it is inconsequential. Serious discussion on the current affairs of Okinawa should not even waste time considering these two points. When they show a trend in growing strength for their views, perhaps then. But now, unless one is a supporter of theirs, I don't see much reason in going out of the way to fett out their beliefs.

Most are viewed as eccentric, but also harmless. Now, if they preached a kind of hatred or violence and that was a means for change, then they should be scrutinized at all levels.

[Crazysix]

Unchinamuku "
Okinawan's have made more sacrifices in the name of peace than you and I can ever imagine. Do you know anything about the history here and what these people have had to sacrifice"

Actually I do know a little as for this statement, the okinawans were in the middle and became a conquered people not only be the Americans but by thier own occupation forces, after which they were still looked at by the US forces as "war booty" up until after the reversion. I feel for there sacrafices but as an American we have and continue to make sacrafices for freedom.
Know about thier history as Americans we dont know enough about our own history, our history is full of stories about people giving up personal freedoms for national Peace.


As fr the Japanese boyscouts, I mean , military your joking right? yes as far as technology goes yes they are advanced , but technology doesnt win war, it takes determination, blood , sweat and personal sacrafice, as more being the most techonlgically advanced, no, but it helps when you are support by your big brother, darn it , I mean the US. This military is born out of defeated nation that still can get over events over 60 years ago. Yes they should aboloish article 9 and build a military to defend themselves, but then again what to i expect from a nation raised on pokomon and anime. This place is a joke.

[Muku]

"By nature" ? I don't know, Uchi. That is a pretty bold statement. To me that implies something biological that can be shown to be true as fact. I just don't see it -- either in history or present social life.


By nature may not be the right way of putting it, but they are non-violent and avoid confrontation in most cases. An "island" mentality.

One other thing to note is the Okinawan people have been absorbed into Japan and it's culture. The Okinawan culture while still alive and kicking now is threatened with extinction. Maybe not in our lifetime but somewhere down the road.

The first reason for this is the decline in the ability of the younger generation to speak the native dialect. The language is the heart of so much of the culture here. Next the education, follows along with what the rest of Japanese kids are being taught. Ask many younger kids "what" they are and they most likely will respond Japanese, not Okinawan. Their identity as Okinawan's is becoming more and more a thing of the past.

I can not remember the name of the book I got the following from so please dont quote me or "hold" me to this.

I remember reading a reference to Okinawa and it's people from somewhere back in the late 1600's or early 1700's, it was an entry into one of the first encylopedia's published in the colonial era of the US. The reference stated that the culture, and the non-violent people were more advanced and "civilized" at the time than the Japanese in mainland Japan. The Japanese in mainland were considered to be barbarians.

Even when the island was annexed by Satsuma in the early 1600's the Emperor then instructed the people not to fight and is quoted as saying that "Life is a treasure".

Why do I bring all of this up, to think about the phrase non violent by nature, if there is a better term then I would appreciate someone telling what I whould use instead. Their roots here are pretty much non violent in my opinion. They became more "violent" through the absorbtion into Japan and Japanese culture.

[okibill]

If you look at aerial photos of Futenma, prior to 1972 there was a sizable buffer zone of nothing but wooded area surrounding the base. The "build up to the fence" didn't occur until Okinawa was returned to Japan. Perhaps the land would have been better suited for agricultural use and not residental. I think it is a case of "P-poor planning". BTW are there zoning laws in Okinawa?

[Muku]

BTW are there zoning laws in Okinawa?
Yes there are zoning laws. Commercial use land, and private housing use are the two main distinctions in zoning here.

The "build up to the fence" didn't occur until Okinawa was returned to Japan. Perhaps the land would have been better suited for agricultural use and not residental

I agree with you 100%. But unfortunately with so many different people owning a piece of the land and their needs, for housing etc etc I guess it was hard to let their land sit unused, which is also taxed higher, and trying to find land in a different location to build their houses, or develop their property.

Personally I often am amazed that the powers that be built Futenma Dai 2 Elementary School and Okinawa Kokusai University so damn close to the runway. It seems like either nonsense or a brilliant strategy to get the bases moved. I havent quite figured out which yet.

[Tempestuous]

Personally I often am amazed that the powers that be built Futenma Dai 2 Elementary School and Okinawa Kokusai University so damn close to the runway. It seems like either nonsense or a brilliant strategy to get the bases moved. I havent quite figured out which yet.

Where we are they have done the same thing. There is two elementary schools built in the last 10yrs or so, right in the crash zone.

On top of that major amounts of subdivisions have gone & continue to go up in the area. Guess people figure the usage of prime real estate is worth the risk??

[Muku]

Where we are they have done the same thing. There is two elementary schools built in the last 10yrs or so, right in the crash zone.

On top of that major amounts of subdivisions have gone & continue to go up in the area. Guess people figure the usage of prime real estate is worth the risk??

One of the Elementary Schools, Ginowan ES, has been there from way, way, way back, it has just been rebuilt thats all.

I doubt that anyone could have forseen the massive growth of the island's population after WWII. There has been an increase of nearly 1 million people on the main island of Okinawa alone. People need places to live, and those places need to be within a decent distance to their places of work, so they really had no other choices.

The infrastructure should have been built during the American occupation btw and not afterwards to support the population, in my opinion. Prior to WWII there was a train system here in Okinawa. Sure they are trying to do something with the monorail, but if the train had been replaced right after the war, issues like this may have been avoided because people could have made the choice to live farther away from the congested areas.

But then again hindsight is 20/20.

[Tempestuous]

But then again hindsight is 20/20.

Always the way it goes.

As for my comment- it was all about what they have done in our area in the last 10yrs to current. As we speak they are putting another housing division on the bases crash zone. Because the house market here is soaring.

here ya go: This is 3yrs old. The green & brown open space at the end of the flight-line & off to the right is now almost completely filled in or in process, cause the city wanted to utilize the space