A response to the Independance Day Flag Incidence story

[JUNewsBot]

JUNewsBot Has Just Posted the Following:

Unlike many people around the world, I still have a high regard for journalism as a profession. This in spite of the fact that much of my academic research over the last ten years has been directed towards revealing the production and reproduction of falsehoods in the mainstream media.

Click here to view the article. (http://www.japanupdate.com/?id=7794)

Feel free to hold a discussion regarding this article here.

[DoctorP]

Well at least he has the balls to write in...many people would have just hid in a corner! I still have to wonder why he bothered to write this and offer an interview instead of just setting the record straight right here right now? I'm sure he's seen the forums...right?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I thought his reply was appropriate. I am not sure why, though, he would expect JU to rise to the same standards of real newspapers. No insult meant, but JU is basically an ad paper, not one of first hand news gathering.

In any event, I think his points were valid and see no reason why JU should not give him an interview. At least it would be a little different from what JU usually does, and he has piqued my interest about the military lawyer intimidation comment. Wish there were more info on that. I'd be interested in the details of a military lawyer poking their nose into a civilian's business off base, and one who is not related to DOD.

[dk]

No offense taken. We are basically an ad paper.

[TheNoNamedOne]

dk, did that letter from Newsbot originate as snail mail or an e-mail? Did it come to you first, or what? Will that be printed in the hard copy?

[dk]

It came to the boss, who asked me to put it online. It SHOULD be printed, but it's really up to him. If the original email had been sent to me, I would have told him to take it directly to the forums as well as shoot a copy to the editor. Kind of feels like a waste that we've got this forum here where he would be able to answer EVERYONE'S questions and he chooses not to use it or just straight up hasn't heard of it.

The boss has been in contact with him a few times I guess.

[afansi]

Stephen Carr's can be found here.http://www.japanupdate.com/?id=1789

[exmil]

I very much look forward to reading about an interview with Prof. Simpson if it can be arranged.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Stephen Carr's can be found here.http://www.japanupdate.com/?id=1789

What an excellent article! I highly recommend all to read it, particularly where it picks up about Mr. Simpson and Japan Update and the on base military brass/attorney.

The length of the article, however, makes me wonder if it made it to the hard copy, or just the JU online? If only a latter, a disservice was surely done, and I would view it as a rather sheepish style of voicing an opinion on a very important point. If the former, then BRAVO for JU.

More to say on this article later.

[Go-Shay]

I'm more interested in the Lawyer that is sticking his nose in places it don't belong.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I'm more interested in the Lawyer that is sticking his nose in places it don't belong.

Isn't that so arrogant, though?

Some base commanders here still view Okinawa as a kind of little fiefdom -- their little rock separated from the world where they feel they can exert power in different corners of civilian society.

Shameful!

As the forum gets more members, I hope a wide array of MOSes and ranks join up so that they have a chance to reply or defend those things we question about certain actions taken by them. This military lawyer thing is just interesting as all heck -- if you ask me.

[dk]

Which base commanders?

I'm interesting in reading some gossip hehehe.

[DougP]

Isn't that so arrogant, though?

Some base commanders here still view Okinawa as a kind of little fiefdom -- their little rock separated from the world where they feel they can exert power in different corners of civilian society.

Shameful!


I agree. What I'm trying to figure out though is when people want to protest or flex their freedom of speech why do they always have to mess with a country's flag??? I mean what did the flag ever do to you? Its kinda childish actually IMO

[TheNoNamedOne]

Which base commanders?

Not sure. But I wouldn't be surprised that the military lawyer which tried to pressure JU, did so at the behest of some base commander that got rankeled and all bent out of shape about something. Surely they would try not to leave their fingerprints on pressuring the press when they can have their minions do it for them.

I'm interested in reading some gossip hehehe.

Well, JU is in a prime position to collect it and try to verify the more fantastical gossip as true or not and make some real first hand reporting.

Could result in scooping Stars&Stripes. Scooping is a pride that all journalists and media take enjoyment in. It keeps them on their toes and pushes them to get better at their sleuthing the facts out and getting it to their readers.

Why not let the other publications on Okinawa, like This Week, The Shogun or what not, do the cultural, scene, Tug of War and festival stuff -- and JU move up another notch, leaving those others behind and report more news?

Not an attack on JU -- just a thought. And I know you have already heard it several times. hehehe.

And I know it is out of your control, so you really don't have to answer those questions.

[dk]

Sure, I'll tell our reporters to get right on it. LMAO

And I only laugh because we have like NO reporters, as I'm sure you already know. We have a few writers, but no one I'd classify as a reporter.

[TheNoNamedOne]

lol. You don't even have staff because you automated all their jobs away with your programming!

[dk]

lol. You don't even have staff because you automated all their jobs away with your programming!
Nah, just the few chicks who used to compile the classifieds :first:

There's no way to automate good writing. If there were, I'd be a millionaire.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Nah, just the few chicks who used to compile the classifieds :first:

Sounds like a hostile sexist work environment with reference to staff like that. <elbow>

[dk]

They're not there anymore so it doesn't matter!

:p

Man, I don't even get to work with ANYONE from JU. I get to see my fellow staff maybe once every few months at the most.

[TheNoNamedOne]

That is because they are avoiding you. They are afraid of you. You are the Automation Monster.

Out of site, out of mind.

------------------------------
Ok, you can have one more reply, and then I am going to try and get this thread back on topic.

[dk]

Hehehe. Nobody has anything to fear. There's nothing left to automate, only to improve. I've got more work than I can handle and not enough time to do it.

And anybody who can be automated out of a job practically overnight by a guy fresh out of college doesn't deserve that job anyway. :o

[DougP]

Hehehe. Nobody has anything to fear. There's nothing left to automate, only to improve. I've got more work than I can handle and not enough time to do it.

And anybody who can be automated out of a job practically overnight by a guy fresh out of college doesn't deserve that job anyway. :o

Hmm like NHK bill collectors/ shukin?

[dk]

Hmm like NHK bill collectors/ shukin?
Exactly! :ohmy:

[TheNoNamedOne]

I agree. What I'm trying to figure out though is when people want to protest or flex their freedom of speech why do they always have to mess with a country's flag??? I mean what did the flag ever do to you? Its kinda childish actually IMO

The material and dyes of the cloth are not alive. Why anthropomophise it?

Wanting to show your passion and outrage at its fullest towards a country and its policy, the flag is the most appropriate target. When one desicrates the U.S. flag, they are not desicrating the principles and values for which an ideal America stands for, nor are they disrespecting her people, those in uniform, or those who have given their life for it. In desicrating the flag they are making a statement about that country's policies, which are political in nature.

What is wrong with self expression when that is a valve for release, that if it were not released could manifest itself in ways that would lead to attacks that would cause injury, or worse yet death.

I am quite satisfied when angry mobs are burning a flag on the street rather than dragging U.S. citizens out of hotels to butcher them.

Also, a public and frenzied flag burning event will attract media, and often that is the best way to get one's message out to the masses rather quickly.

[DougP]

When one desicrates the U.S. flag, they are not desicrating the principles and values for which an ideal America stands for, nor are they disrespecting her people, those in uniform, or those who have given their life for it.

Perception not truth. To many of those in the uniformed services, my self included being prior service, do take it as an insult.

What is wrong with self expression when that is a valve for release, that if it were not released could manifest itself in ways that would lead to attacks that would cause injury, or worse yet death.

A two year old throws tantrums in a store when he or she can't get what they want. Later they learn the art of expressing themselves in a constructive maner. Burning things in public doesn't sound very constructive at all. Rather immature.

I am quite satisfied when angry mobs are burning a flag on the street rather than dragging U.S. citizens out of hotels to butcher them.

True a lesser of the two evils. Plus you just described the kind of people they usually are, angry mobs.

Also, a public and frenzied flag burning event will attract media, and often that is the best way to get one's message out to the masses rather quickly.

Doesn't make it right

[Go-Shay]

I don't see it as self expression but rather as just making a statement. He has the freedom to do so. I think that there is a little more behind the reasoning but we will not know until he is interviewed. I give him credit none the less for having the balls to peacefully make a statement without trampling on anyones rights.

[Bones]

TP, wrote:

Quote:

I am quite satisfied when angry mobs are burning a flag on the street rather than dragging U.S. citizens out of hotels to butcher them.

I don't even know how to respond to that. :confused:

Oh yeah, it makes the news. :D

Which is how this guy makes his money.

VALUE???? :thumbdown:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Perception not truth. To many of those in the uniformed services, my self included being prior service, do take it as an insult.

I understand, Doug. But perception is different for many people. I think you are even acknowledging that in the quote. I don't deny what you are saying, but based on the fact that we both agree perception is different to many, you wouldn't want to force others via law to not burn a flag, would you?

A two year old throws tantrums in a store when he or she can't get what they want. Later they learn the art of expressing themselves in a constructive maner. Burning things in public doesn't sound very constructive at all. Rather immature.

If the goal is to get international media coverage and a frenzied flag burning attracts the cameras for their nightly clip (just as chum attracts sharks), it has been quite constructive in voicing and getting their disatisfaction out at some policy. News just doesn't show the incident; the reporters lay their voice over it and take a few secs or mins to explain what the flag burning is about.

Sure, the analogy of a kid throwing a tantrum in public can be used. But geuss what? I have seen many a parents break down at the register or aisle and throw the toy or candy in the cart be rung up. In those cases that child has won its goal and it has been constructive for him or her at that point in time. It is a strong willed mother that can ignore such tantrums, and my kudos go out to them, but news media do not exercise that discipline and often do throw the video clip into the backpack for delivery to the world.

True a lesser of the two evils. Plus you just described the kind of people they usually are, angry mobs.

Yes. We agree on both counts.

TheProsecutor:
Also, a public and frenzied flag burning event will attract media, and often that is the best way to get one's message out to the masses rather quickly.

Doesn't make it right

Freedom of expression is right. No reason why a national flag should be held to any higher esteem or protection as use for a prop than a religious item, or anything else someone decides is a personal cherished thing to them.

As for the U.S. flag it stands for freedom on a variety of points. One of those is freedom of expression and speech.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

You never do, NBTP. You just snipe by jumping in and jumping out.

confused

Yes, you are. We agree.

[DougP]

I understand, Doug. But perception is different for many people. I think you are even acknowledging that in the quote. I don't deny what you are saying, but based on the fact that we both agree perception is different to many, you wouldn't want to force others via law to not burn a flag, would you?

Not at all. I would rather they found a better way to express themselves.

Freedom of expression is right. No reason why a national flag should be held to any higher esteem or protection as use for a prop than a religious item, or anything else someone decides is a personal cherished thing to them.

As for the U.S. flag it stands for freedom on a variety of points. One of those is freedom of expression and speech.

Its a right. But it doesn't mean it is right. Under the same right one could yell out all kinds of obscenities in public or around young children. Comments filled with racial, and other derogatory slurs. It would be that individuals right but it doesn't make it appropriate. I just feel that there are better ways of expressing yourself. Maybe throwing the tantrum is constructive for the individual because it gets the attention desired but if it negatively affects others then how sensible is it? In my opinion these forms of expression are outbursts, plain and simple. Its a rather primitive behavior that goes right along the lines of cold cocking someone when they look at you funny. "I was angry I needed to express my self!"

I would suggest that others try to rise above such childish acts and find a better medium to get their point out there. I'd rather people steak in public with messages of protest painted on their bodies then set fire to something.
I bet the news cameras will come just as quick :)

[TheNoNamedOne]

I see your point in all that Doug, and fair enough -- though we will just have to ultimately disagree for the time being.


I'd rather people speak in public with messages of protest painted on their bodies then set fire to something.
I bet the news cameras will come just as quick :)

The news cameras do come quick! PETA does that all the time and gets a lot of free coverage.

Nudity sells. Strange that an Animal Rights org uses it far better than other social causes. Looks like the animals have a savy group, according to your standards, working for them.

[Bones]

Ok,

Quote:

TP wroteYou never do,NBTP.You just snipe by jumping in and jumping out.

What can I say? I'm a jumping, sniping whore. :D

On a serious note however, I really haven't had much time to actually respond to some the things that you've written (even though I sometimes share your same opinion), until today.

No longer working, finished up building my last two systems today, and can now focus on packing, and closing this place down in the weeks to come.

To get back on track however, I do not condone burning the American flag. And like some of the other posters who have made a genuine effort to show their displeasure of this act, I do find it offensive. It does show a certain level of contempt for our country, a contempt of it's people, it's ideals/laws....

As some others out there have said, there are better ways to demonstrate for something that you believe in, without burning the flag, without violence, etc....

One of the things that has always puzzled me is this:

If these protesters are so unhappy with (fill in the blank), why don't they just leave and move to some other country that agrees with everything that they are against?

Another thing that always comes to mind, if America is so bad, why do so many people want to come here?

Food for thought.

NBTP;)

[Fonze]

Thank u prosecutor for defending peoples right to desicrate something(flag) some people hold dear. I will be going to Shuri castle and peace park to piss and shit on them then make a point that America won the war. I am glad to know you stand behind my manner of protest and expression sense im not physically hurting anyone.
To the victors the spoils!

[Karaoke Man]

That was an interesting question that the writer posed about a Florida base barring a local paper from entering it's gates. Well, I know from personal experience where a California base barred the Air Force Times from entering its gates to do a story. It was actually an opinion piece that I was chosen to be interviewed for by them...full page. It seems that the base did not want their dirty laundry aired (even though my research was factual and non-slanderous). The whole exercise was quite ridiculous because they posted my picture and where I stationed under the article.

[TheNoNamedOne]

As some others out there have said, there are better ways to demonstrate for something that you believe in, without burning the flag, without violence, etc....

One of the things that has always puzzled me is this:

If these protesters are so unhappy with (fill in the blank), why don't they just leave and move to some other country that agrees with everything that they are against?

As for America, there is no reason to leave just because you do not agree with it and are unhappy about parts of it. There is nothing wrong with dissent. In fact, America was born on dissent. What if those U.S. rebels in the colonies under the reign of King George had listened to the Loyalists in the colonies with your same reasoning? If they had, then they would have never dissented enough to create the U.S.

Those who burn the flag, desecrate it, fly it upside down etc... are not nearly dissenting as much as the Sons of Liberty did that caused property loss and violence. But, do you consider those past violent rebels in a higher light than those of today who just disfigure a flag peacefully? Their issues were often based on monetary concerns such as taxes, while those who disrespect the flag these days do so not out of concerns for monetary profit, but out of concern for human rights and freedom of expression.

Which style of dissent is the higher calling deserving of more respect?

[DoctorP]

You are soooooooo wrong for this TP :rolleyes::D

[Steganos]

As for America, there is no reason to leave just because you do not agree with it and are unhappy about parts of it. There is nothing wrong with dissent. In fact, America was born on dissent. What if those U.S. rebels in the colonies under the reign of King George had listened to the Loyalists in the colonies with your same reasoning? If they had, then they would have never dissented enough to create the U.S.

Those who burn the flag, desecrate it, fly it upside down etc... are not nearly dissenting as much as the Sons of Liberty did that caused property loss and violence. But, do you consider those past violent rebels in a higher light than those of today who just disfigure a flag peacefully? Their issues were often based on monetary concerns such as taxes, while those who disrespect the flag these days do so not out of concerns for monetary profit, but out of concern for human rights and freedom of expression.

Which style of dissent is the higher calling deserving of more respect?
Next time you feel like disenting by burning the flag, come look me up, and bring a friend, so that your friend can carry your dead sorry ass away.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Steganos, does this mean you have no respect for the US constitution, nor for the supreme court which rejected banning flag burning as an expression of free speech?

[Steganos]

Steganos, does this mean you have no respect for the US constitution, nor for the supreme court which rejected banning flag burning as an expression of free speech?
Your are so stupid that even thou you don't deserve an explanation to my post here it is!

"Next time you feel like disenting by burning the flag, come look me up, and bring a friend, so that your friend can carry your dead sorry ass away."

Now that on top is what I posted, here is what it means. Next time this guy wants to burn the flag to come look me up, means come and do it in front of me, and as soon as he attempts to set that flag on fire, I will excersice my freedom of speech right by killing his sorry ass, and then his friend can carry him away. Clear enough?

[DoctorP]

Let's refrain from calling people stupid, or threatening them with violence. Please continue with your discussion.

[Steganos]

Let's refrain from calling people stupid, or threatening them with violence. Please continue with your discussion.
Ooopsies, sorry about that. It's just that I get very emotional and sensitive about people messing with flag. But then again, those of us who have fought and bleed defending what the flag represent are the only ones that would understand my reaction.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Assault and murder are not protected as expressions of free speech. Even in Japan.

Have you not fought and bleed to protect the freedoms enshrined in the constitution?! Whatever for, then?

[DoctorP]

Ooopsies, sorry about that. It's just that I get very emotional and sensitive about people messing with flag. But then again, those of us who have fought and bleed defending what the flag represent are the only ones that would understand my reaction.

DocP has fought/bled for the same flag...under two different services. Are you saying DocP doesn't understand?

[Steganos]

DocP has fought/bled for the same flag...under two different services. Are you saying DocP doesn't understand?
Don't know, you tell me.

[Steganos]

Don't know, you tell me.
Burning or desecrating by any means your country's flag it's like desecrating your own mother and everything that your family believes and stand for. Yes the constitution grants us many rights, but those rights stop when the start conflicting the rights of your neighbor.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

How does burning a flag impede or remove your rights?

[DoctorP]

Whoa...did you just quote and answer yourself??? That's odd!

[Steganos]

Whoa...did you just quote and answer yourself??? That's odd!
Hmm, is that what's is called an "impasse", you have the right to burn the flag, I have the right to stop you from burning it. Interesting situation! It can only be solved one way.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Burning or desecrating by any means your country's flag it's like desecrating your own mother and everything that your family believes and stand for. Yes the constitution grants us many rights, but those rights stop when the start conflicting the rights of your neighbor.

Hmm, is that what's is called an "impasse", you have the right to burn the flag, I have the right to stop you from burning it. Interesting situation! It can only be solved one way.
I'm wondering if you see the contradiction here. People have the right to free speech and expression (including flag burning). It in no way impedes or removes any of another's rights. Yet, you wish to impede and remove another's right to this free expression. Perhaps you are confused about what you fought and bled for. You didn't wake up thinking you were in Russia, did you?

[Steganos]

I'm wondering if you see the contradiction here. People have the right to free speech and expression (including flag burning). It in no way impedes or removes any of another's rights. Yet, you wish to impede and remove another's right to this free expression. Perhaps you are confused about what you fought and bled for. You didn't wake up thinking you were in Russia, did you?
HA, HA, HA, soooo funny. Try burning the Japanese flag in the middle of NAHA city, or just go to American Village and burn the Japanese flag there and then tell me what happens. Or if we were in RUSSIA, try the same with the Russian flag in the Red Square.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

There is no law against burning the hinomaru in Japan. Unless you did that in front of a group of right-wing nationalists, likely very little would come of it. Russia, on the other hand, likely does have a law against it. If they don't, Putin may decide to make one, and apply it retroactively.

Why are you so threatened by those who do you no harm?

[Steganos]

There is no law against burning the hinomaru in Japan. Unless you did that in front of a group of right-wing nationalists, likely very little would come of it. Russia, on the other hand, likely does have a law against it. If they don't, Putin may decide to make one, and apply it retroactively.

Why are you so threatened by those who do you no harm?
I don't feel threatened, just disgusted. I don't know you, I don't know under what circumstances you ended up here in Okinawa, and I don't care to find out, it is not my busisness. But isn't it the whole concept behind this forums, the exchange of ideas. I am expresing my ideas and feelings about our flag, it means something to me. Obviously it doesn't mean anything to you, and we are just exchanging our views on the matter, I know that I am not going to change your way of thinking, and I know that are not going to change mine. So for the time being before I go to work, I am just excersicing my constitutional right to push your buttons.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

It would seem the one who threatened violence and murder had his/her buttons pushed. :)

[Steganos]

It would seem the one who threatened violence and murder had his/her buttons pushed. :)
OK, OK, OK, OK, I give up!!!!, I'll burn a flag!!, but only if you are wrapped in it!

[P_chan]

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1319/firemanpi3.jpg

[Tony Stacks]

I don't feel threatened.

Yes you do :eek:

[gunny8511]

he would expect JU to rise to the same standards of real newspapers.

You mean biased, emotionally driven agendas? Perhaps he was expecting something more from a smaller "paper."

[gunny8511]

Flag burning? Pffft...what a juvenile exercise in futility. Anyone who would burn a flag is only attempting to enrage others, nothing more. While Americans who would burn their own flag are pathetic, they are indeed within their (current) rights. They might be idiots, but they are within their rights. I would simply encourage them to leave, since they seem to hate America so much. :thumbdown:

[okisteve]

I'm happy to see you back Gunny. Do you really think that newspapers can or should be perfectly neutral? Publishers invest in the news media so they can a) make a profit and b) try to influence things by slanting information and editorializing. Nothing criminal or subversive about it - it's the way things are. That goes for CNN, but I happen to think that Fox News is a much better example of totally biased reporting. (In case you didn't know it, Fox is 100% owned by the Australian conservative media monopolist Rupert Murdoch)

For decades the New York Times (and also the Chicago Tribune) were considered the "newspapers of record" in the USA. They have always had what some would call a liberal slant but they are still the best we have. I read the NY Times and Atlantic Monthly, but I also have a lot of respect for intelligent conservatives like, like, like.... well there's David Brooks and the Weekly Standard.

What do you read and believe?

[gunny8511]

Steve,

I read a variety of news articles, mostly web-based. The overwhelming majority of "mainstream" media outlets are indeed biased. You cite the fact that Fox News is owned by a certain person, and use that as a reason for it being biased; I disagree. I've compared their reporting to the reporting of CNN and the NYT, and there's really no comparison. I'm not touting Fox, but they seem to be suffering less from bias than many of the other heavy hitters.

I trust the smaller outlets more, and rely heavily on bloggers to point out the articles, as there are many that would go undiscovered otherwise.

I stopped paying attention to the NYT when they started revealing classified information, and tipping off suspected terrorist supporters. They seem to have lost their sense of reason in recent years. Perhaps the management there has lost sight of what country they reside in.

[DoctorP]

No news service is without bias. You can even see it on the TV news. Everyone puts a slant on the news to suit their own agenda. The only place that you may get unbiased reporting these days is in the form of a blog or online publication...but even those are going to have a slant. It is rare these days to find someone who just wants to report the news.