Military Golf Courses on Okinawa: Extravegant waste, or rightly justified?

[TheNoNamedOne]

What do you think about the military having their own golf courses on Okinawa (aside from the point Awase Golf Course is to be returned)?

I understand the need for moral and welfare recreational activities and facilities, but personally, I think golf courses on an island in one of the most densely populated places in the world is a tad over the top in extravegance.

Okinawans live like sardines packed next to, stacked on top of one another, always hurting for space, and the miltary uses the land it has said is needed for such a pleasure is mind boggling. The fact that they have made it open for locals as guests does not change the situation of wasteful land use, if not down right selfish.

If the military wanted to benefit Okinawa more economically with its presence here, then they should pay the membership fees and costs to Japanese run business golf courses of its military members who want to persue golf as a recreation. That way more money would be infused into the local economy and uneeded land would be freed up for development that would bring in revenue from other sources by maximizing that land's value. Or, those courses could be converted into Central Park style parks -- as abodes of nature tucked within cities that lets people easily have access to to reduce the stresses of city life.

Where is some self control in consumption of recourses and respect for the plight that Okinawans bear when it comes to these obscene uses of land --such as golf courses?

[socalheart]

It's what they call a necessary extravagance. I don't golf, because I don't "get it". The military wants to pay someone to rent land and then build a golf course for its military personnel. If the owner of the land received a better offer for the land, he or she had every opportunity to take it. This is commercial capitalism. True, the military could rent the land and use it for more practical purposes. They didn't though. If you're a US citizen, write a complaint letter to your congress. I like to believe it will provide more jobs for military dependents and the local community. One can never have too many "grass ninjas" on any given base. heh. The cost of using a Japanese golf course is very prohibitive to most military who enjoy golfing. I am hesitant to believe that a Japanese country club or course would offer open membership to military personnel without sponsorship. Afterall, most US clubs require a sponsor with a membership application. Again, neither my husband or I golf. I don't see a huge problem with the military having its own course. Non-military are allowed to golf on a military course with a sponsor, but no membership is required, if I recall correctly.

[DoctorP]

The cost of using a Japanese golf course is very prohibitive to most military who enjoy golfing. I am hesitant to believe that a Japanese country club or course would offer open membership to military personnel without sponsorship.

But you don't have to be a member to play at all of the Japanese courses. I know of 4 of them where anyone can play.

Afterall, most US clubs require a sponsor with a membership application. Again, neither my husband or I golf. I don't see a huge problem with the military having its own course. Non-military are allowed to golf on a military course with a sponsor, but no membership is required, if I recall correctly.

But shouldn't it be open to everyone...without a sponsor? I see no problem with that.

I understand the need for moral and welfare recreational activities and facilities, but personally, I think golf courses on an island in one of the most densely populated places in the world is a tad over the top in extravegance.


Much of the land at Awase is not suitable for development. Of course some of it is ok, but there are areas where nothing could be done without throwing a lot of money into the development. That is the good thing about a golf course, it can use land no one else can. I think having a golf course is a good thing. You being so in love with nature, I can't see you wishing for a golf course to be bulldozed so that the next shopping mall can go in! (I know you didn't say that, but that is what will happen)

I don't see the locals in an uproar over the many golf courses that dot this island. What should be any different about the fact that a couple of them are controlled by the military?

[P_chan]

It really doesn't bother me. I'm not a golfer and so I don't really care. But DoctorP is right! I would rather see it as a nice green golf course then a bunch of pachinko parlors or shopping malls.

[socalheart]

But you don't have to be a member to play at all of the Japanese courses. I know of 4 of them where anyone can play.

I didn't know that, even though I grew up here. Most military don't know that, but believe it's too expensive anyway.

But shouldn't it be open to everyone...without a sponsor? I see no problem with that.

The problem the military probably sees is security. If it's open to everyone, a terrorist (not necessarily those terrorists) might get in and do stuff that is "terroristy". (Yes, I know that isn't a legitimate word.) It's a known gathering place of American military on a military installation, so a possible target for terrorism. They don't even want personnel to go through gates that have protestors at it, because of security issues.

[DoctorP]

The problem the military probably sees is security. If it's open to everyone, a terrorist (not necessarily those terrorists) might get in and do stuff that is "terroristy". (Yes, I know that isn't a legitimate word.) It's a known gathering place of American military on a military installation, so a possible target for terrorism. They don't even want personnel to go through gates that have protestors at it, because of security issues.

Security???? It is a wide open space...anyone that wants to could get in anway, so security isn't the issue. The issue is that if they opened it up to everyone, then it would be more difficult to get a tee time...and no one would want that!

[socalheart]

Security???? It is a wide open space...anyone that wants to could get in anway, so security isn't the issue. The issue is that if they opened it up to everyone, then it would be more difficult to get a tee time...and no one would want that!

Amusing as your tee time comment may be, completely disregarding security is irresponsible of anyone associated with the military or who is a visitor in a foreign country.

I wouldn't say a private military golf course is "rightly justified" though. I believe there are better ways to spend the money, but I don't have any acceptable ideas to offer them. As long as the land is paid for and there is nothing illegal (like toxic waste dumping) is happening with the land, I don't see how it is any different from doing the same anywhere else in the world where the US has a presence similar to Okinawa.

[DoctorP]

Amusing or not, I do not see how security is an issue at a golf course. Anyone who wanted to could walk right onto the course, or literally drive onto the course!

[socalheart]

The fence with barbed (concertino) wire that runs the edge of the golf course and the military patrols are a good deterrent. The MPs drive around the Awase course and back of Kishaba housing as well. Of course, any determined terrorist would be able to enter any facility. Military golf courses in a mostly peaceful area might be more concerned about security as it pertains to theft and vandalism. Once the golf course is built, having military forces patrol it off hours is not an added extravagance, as any public or private course would have security for its course. If it were a military golf course in the US, it would definitely be an unjustifiable extravagance. Then again, space isn't as much of an issue there as it is here. There are many options for land on Okinawa, but monies paid for the land is by far more important to the land owners than what is done with it. It's up to the elected officials and their communities to petition the use of lands in their areas. Look at how effective they've been about the northern Okinawa military projects. One of the many things I learned about Okinawa is they can stop anything with doing nothing about it.

[DoctorP]

Ahhh, but the fence you speak of is around housing, not the golf course. The golf course is pretty much open. Drive along hole #1, #18 and the clubhouse area. There is not much of a deterrant there. And anyone could get out there at night and do pretty much anything that they want, as I'm quite sure many teenagers do!

[newvalor]

having a military supplied golf course has been in a military asset for yrs and many more to come. reason being is that in other countries overseas they do not have golf courses available for those who like to play. yes there may be 4 or so courses off base, but the on base facility host to military personnel. not just being military ran but also a benefit to military personnel, just like the bx and on base restaurants. it's cheaper, located closer, and most times they will have hours that work with military hours. it's basically a course for the military person. know there is nothing saying we can't play somewhere else, but when you compare waiting times for the course on base to one off base, more than likely you will have better luck and more time to play on base.

I find that complaining about the onbase golf course funny. there's some odd number of places off base that take up even more land compared to the one on base. so it seems there are more people playing off base that can't seem to fit onto less courses. it's not the military's fault that there isn't enough land for other things. these bases were more than likely here way before the population grew to what it is now. it's called industrialization of resources, you can watch the same plot of land have something built up then torn down 20 times in a yr if that happens.

[Boost]

The golf courses on-base were always an issue with me while stationed there though for different reasons then those listed by TP.

I don’t know if the situation has changed any since leaving, but when we first arrived in Okinawa, there was about a 1 year waiting period for those desiring to move into base housing. I never understood why having a golf course was so much more important then utilizing that space for additional family housing for service members that wanted to live on-base.

[TheNoNamedOne]

That is a good point, Boost! And I don't think it is really too off from my perspective.

Land is a premium here. Military and DOD related personel who cannot find housing on base must do so off base. And that drives up rents as demand is fueled. It affects the locals as well in an indirect way -- but a very real way.

When land space is sparce, it should be used effectively for those things in most need, not extravegances.

[newvalor]

the reason why a lot of people decide to live on base is because it's free and not having to pay the high cost of rent off base. How is it affecting the locals when they get lower rental rates compared to an american GI?? A majority of the time, the waiting line is so long to move on base because you are not the only one of course but not every E-1 to E-4 can afford these high cost apartments.

If we were to use our base for housing more than extravagances then how would that affect the morale?? it may sound like a good idea, but with the amount of housing already available, even with small base enclosures for housing only, how can the golf course be used in comparison to overuse of land. it's like saying the BX is a waste of space and we should shop off base because I had to wait in line for 45 minutes. we should shop off base more often so the locals can make more money.

this subject is stupid. I mean wow, the kind of people that can complain about a freakin golf course using too much land. please somebody delete this subject, it's just too errie to look at for me anymore.

[Boost]

I think utilizing the land that the golf courses currently occupy, for base housing would be a moral booster to those who want to live on-base but are currently unable to do so being there is a waiting list. Especially when looking at the married E-1 to E-4 category that are not making a whole ton of money to begin with, and then living out in town with all the expenses associated with renting. It is a major stress reliever to be able to move on base and not have all those monthly expenses.

As for the moral of those that use the golf courses, there are plenty others to use. I think the moral of one’s financial situation is more important then the moral of those that just don’t want to spend the extra money to play out in town. You can survive without playing golf, however the expenses of being a married E-1, living out in town can take a person under.

[newvalor]

it's actually vise/versa on the housing issue. there are more e-1's thru e-4's living in base housing. reason being is even with the advance pay thru finance it is still difficult most times for them to move off base. that's why there are also dorms for the e-5 and e-6 because the rate to live off base is too much. the line most times is long due to the amount of airmen and not nco's that are wanting to live on base due to cost. but if thats the case, then why should the officers get choice of housing on base before anybody else? that would seem like a legitamate point to post about.

[Boost]

it's actually vise/versa on the housing issue. there are more e-1's thru e-4's living in base housing. reason being is even with the advance pay thru finance it is still difficult most times for them to move off base. that's why there are also dorms for the e-5 and e-6 because the rate to live off base is too much. the line most times is long due to the amount of airmen and not nco's that are wanting to live on base due to cost. but if thats the case, then why should the officers get choice of housing on base before anybody else? that would seem like a legitamate point to post about.

I think that junior enlisted and even junior NCO’s should be considered first for housing before officers. Even a butter bar makes close to that of an E-7, so they should be able to afford living out in town more so then E-1 thru E-5/6’s.

But overall I think having antiquate housing for all should be priority over the golf course. But again that is just my personal opinion of the matter.

[dk]

this subject is stupid. I mean wow, the kind of people that can complain about a freakin golf course using too much land. please somebody delete this subject, it's just too errie to look at for me anymore.
I've just been ignoring it, more or less. This topic is not for me. No need to delete it, TP isn't breaking any rules. Just let him say his piece and we'll go about believing whatever it is we believe.

[TheNoNamedOne]

this subject is stupid. I mean wow, the kind of people that can complain about a freakin golf course using too much land. please somebody delete this subject, it's just too errie to look at for me anymore.

The easier solution in accordance with the rules of the forum, newvalor, would be for you to not visit the thread if it bothers you. Though, if a subject or post does violate the rules, we will seriously consider deleting it.

[P_chan]

The easier solution in accordance with the rules of the forum, newvalor, would be for you to not visit the thread if it bothers you. Though, if a subject or post does violate the rules, we will seriously consider deleting it.

After all ignorance is bliss...:rolleyes:

A lot of young e1-4 have a hard time living off base because they can't manage their money. If you only 150,000 yen a month for rent then stay in that limit. I have a co worker who was married to military, which got them more money, but they chose a house that's rent was 350,000. What the hell was she thinking? Now they got a divorce (saw it coming from a mile away) and she is stuck a huge bill to pay for the advance. You don't need a huge house off base if it's just your wife, one child, and you. Heh you also don't need that 10,000 dollar siliva S15 trubo that you will probably pour more money into, only to sell it in two years.

[Muku]

it's not the military's fault that there isn't enough land for other things.

Btw yes it is, if the military here no one would be having this discussion and no one would probably know that Okinawa even existed.

understand the need for moral and welfare recreational activities and facilities, but personally, I think golf courses on an island in one of the most densely populated places in the world is a tad over the top in extravegance.
I think people forget something rather important here, back in 1945 there were not 1 Million Okinawans living on the island here. Back when the courses were laid out and built they areas were not over populated.

[ProtoEVO]

I think utilizing the land that the golf courses currently occupy, for base housing would be a moral booster to those who want to live on-base but are currently unable to do so being there is a waiting list. Especially when looking at the married E-1 to E-4 category that are not making a whole ton of money to begin with, and then living out in town with all the expenses associated with renting. It is a major stress reliever to be able to move on base and not have all those monthly expenses.



How about we use some of the land in the Central Training Area that goes largely unused for housing if you are so concerned about housing.
One of the topics of protest for those people that like to protest is the exhorbinant amount of land used for, by appearance, nothing at all.
Put housing on some of that land to justify its use. As far as the golf course goes it has been here since 1946 I think. Since RYCOM meant something and was not just the name of an intersection. Marine Corps Crime Syndicate is charging a nice competitive rate for our Okinawan hosts to play there. That way it is perceived to be open for all.

[Boost]

How about we use some of the land in the Central Training Area that goes largely unused for housing if you are so concerned about housing.

Don't know, not familiar with the area you are referring too. If it would be a feasible area to build housing, then why not?

[ProtoEVO]

Don't know, not familiar with the area you are referring too. If it would be a feasible area to build housing, then why not?

The area around Hansen and Schwab.
The area that has no housing. The closest housing is Camp Courtney.
When I worked at Schwab I would have to drive over an hour each way to my home on Camp Shields. Could have lived off-base, but wanted the kids to be able to play with their classmates.

[Asshat]

Those facilities are used by a whole bunch of Okinawans. So many in fact that for some military folks, it has become as issue. They can't get tee times, etc.

Those courses are more than just MWR outlets for military. And most of the avid SOFA golfers I know, go to the Japanese courses because they are nicer, have hot tubs, etc.

[ProtoEVO]

And most of the avid SOFA golfers I know, go to the Japanese courses because they are nicer, have hot tubs, etc.

Plus they like the variety

[Asshat]

Plus they like the variety

And the caddys.

[PKaBooo69]

Golf sucks. Build a race track. Golf is a waste of space, unless they authorize drunken golf cart jousting as a recognized sport.

[DoctorP]

...and racing is a waste of gas! So I guess now we are at a stalemate?

[dk]

Croquet anyone?

[Muku]

Croquet anyone?
Watch out you might get the tree hugger's mad at you here!:old:

[DoctorP]

We are all fueling TP's request for an Okinawan Central Park! Quick...let's all agree on how to best waste the land!

[dk]

We could build the largest concrete factory in the world. Or create a huuuuuuuuuuuge concrete roller rink!

Just miles and miles and MILES of concrete! As far as the eye can see! Just imagine it!

[DoctorP]

We could build the largest concrete factory in the world. Or create a huuuuuuuuuuuge concrete roller rink!

Just miles and miles and MILES of concrete! As far as the eye can see! Just imagine it!

What would we call it??? Tokyo?:D

[dk]

No, Tokyo has all those buildings in the way... Hmm... The concrete flatlands?

[Muku]

What would we call it??? Tokyo?:D

There is the nuclear option....build a waste treatment plant for the entire island.

[PKaBooo69]

No, Tokyo has all those buildings in the way... Hmm... The concrete flatlands?

hell ya!!!! we can call it "Race the shit out your car land":thumbup::first:<3<3<3

[dk]

hell ya!!!! we can call it "Race the shit out your car land":thumbup::first:<3<3<3
Lets do that!!! :thumbup:

[socalheart]

We could build the largest concrete factory in the world. Or create a huuuuuuuuuuuge concrete roller rink!
Just miles and miles and MILES of concrete! As far as the eye can see! Just imagine it!

We could call it The Concrete Jungle. heh. If you really want to waste the land, you could turn it into a shopping mall. ;)

[DoctorP]

We could call it The Concrete Jungle. heh. If you really want to waste the land, you could turn it into a shopping mall. ;)

That is already the plan...we're trying to find other ways to waste it! :rolleyes:

[socalheart]

That is already the plan...we're trying to find other ways to waste it! :rolleyes:

Ah. I missed that part. oops.

Well, how about a drive-in theater?

[dk]

Too useful. Waste is the key word.

[DoctorP]

You know (seriously) that would be a great location for the covention center, budokan, theatre house, etc...close to the expressway, accessable from both sides of the island, not like the budokan and convention centers now!

[DougP]

I still say drag strip, IHOP, and a nice patch of grass for a DZ for free fall( skydiving)

[DoctorP]

Not a good location for a drag strip, but I feel ya bro'!

[ProtoEVO]

Not a good location for a drag strip, but I feel ya bro'!

Actually if you go from the tee box of number 11 diagonally toward the green of 15 it could work.
:80:

[DoctorP]

I didn't mean it couldn't work, but the area is too residential already. No one...I would think even you, would want to live next to a drag strip. At least a golf course is usually quiet!

[ProtoEVO]

I didn't mean it couldn't work, but the area is too residential already. No one...I would think even you, would want to live next to a drag strip. At least a golf course is usually quiet!

Well if we are not making noise from Futenma anymore, we gotta make noise somewhere.:D

[DougP]

I didn't mean it couldn't work, but the area is too residential already. No one...I would think even you, would want to live next to a drag strip. At least a golf course is usually quiet!

Ah man I would:thumbup::first: My wife would hate it though:D

[P_chan]

Those houses have F15s flying over their heads all the time I don't think a drag strip would be much added noise.