English is a Germanic Language, not Romantic??

[Muku]

Question here arises from the following.....Post 57 (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=113383&postcount=57) on the The Bible as a history/literature book... (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6369&page=2)

Unsure who or what your sources are, but English is a Germanic language. In terms of syntax, it is much closer to English. Latin is a highly inflected language and doesn't depend on word order as much as the right inflection. (Kinda like Chinese.) If you're trying to make the case that English comes from Latin because of all those Latin words appearing in our lexicon, then you'd also have to say that English is "predominately based" on all other languages in the world, since English speakers are the world's most prolific borrows of foreign words, a fact illustrated by the very size of the English language dictionary.


I can not for the life remember exactly why I thought that English was a Romance Language and not Germanic.

I think it could be from the fact that English borrows so much from other lanaguages and a great portion of that happens to be Latin that I grew up and somehow remember my teachers telling us that English was a Romance language, at least that is what I seem to recall.

Anyway am I the only one here that thinks that way? Did everyone else know that English was Germanic and not born from Latin?

[Tanimaga]

Yes, I was corrected on that many years ago. I thought since most EVERY word seems to have been from the Latin meaning _________, that Latin was closer than Germanic.

The book had a nice chart in the back, and stated otherwise.

[InDuhUSA]

One internet source says it it had its origins with the Norse (See here (http://www.ingilish.com/orofeng.htm)).

Another web page confirms Ian Brody's statement that the English language is Germanic (see here (http://www.krysstal.com/english.html)).

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_English_language) also sides with Brody. I guess two out of three internet sources is enough proof ;)

[okisteve]

I'd refer to my copy of "The Meaning of Everything" (about how the Oxford English Dictionary was developed), which has a clear and complete background on the evolution of English, but I loaned it to someone.

It's easy to understand why the Germanic influences are stronger than Latin. The Roman occupation of Britain only lasted a few centuries, and then the Frenchies who took over in 1066 actually were Normans whose own native language is Celtic. Contrast this to the Norse (Germanic) origins of English and and many subsequent Norse and Germanic reconquests and it's not hard to see why Romance languages didn't influence the basic structure of English very much.

Vocabulary is a different story - thousands of "loan" words entered English from the Continent, and I guess most came from the Romance-speaking countries.

BTW - "inflection" is not the same as "intonation" as in Chinese. Japanese is highly inflected because meaning of a sentence is conveyed in part by the way the verb is modified, rather than the word order. In German and other languages like Russian (I don't know Latin but I think it is the same) the nouns are also inflected, with confusing little endings tacked on. But in the end, those languages are a lot more logical than English and I really feel sorry for people who have to learn our illogical mother tongue.

[Odie]

I did know this, in part because I speak Spanish and see such few similarities between the two and also because I was a Spanish major and learned a bit about the languages origins etc. From what I learned the romance languages are: Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French and Romanian. There are sub categories and dialects and all that other good stuff but those are the main ones.

I can see how people would get confused though with all the borrowing English does.

I agree with you Okisteve English is rather illogical.

[Trail]

Exactly what I was taught:
Word origins of the modern day English language are predominately French/Old Norman(Normandy), Latin, and Germanic. Nothing is definite. French is Gall-romantic being called "Langues d'oil" having ties to Roman Gaul which would be modern day France, Belgium, Luxemborg, and western Germany. Rome had control of the area for roughly 500-600 years starting in 121 BC and ending in 486 AD.

Here is a wikipedia source for my history notes:
Roman Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Gaul)
One of the consequences of the French influence is that the vocabulary of English is, to a certain extent, divided between those words which are Germanic (mostly West Germanic, with a smaller influence from the North Germanic branch) and those which are "Latinate" (Latin-derived, either directly from Norman French or other Romance languages).

Numerous sets of statistics have been proposed to demonstrate the origins of English vocabulary. None, as yet, is considered definitive by most linguists.

A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973)[38] that estimated the origin of English words as follows:

Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
Other Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English): 25%
Greek: 5.32%
No etymology given: 4.03%
Derived from proper names: 3.28%
All other languages contributed less than 1%

A survey by Joseph M. Williams in Origins of the English Language of 10,000 words taken from several thousand business letters gave this set of statistics:

* French (langue d'oïl): 41%
* "Native" English: 33%
* Latin: 15%
* Danish: 2%
* Dutch: 1%
* Other: 10%

However, 83% of the 1,000 most-common, and all of the 100 most-common English words are Germanic

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Muku,

You should have known that! After all, aren't you an English teacher? I've had my suspicions for a while now. A few things you've said really got me wondering...

Nate it's called an ALT, Assistant Language Teacher, to a JET, otherwise known as a Japanese English Teacher.

ALT's dont lecture, they assist.

As you know the school year is already in session and BOE's are not going to be looking for any new people, if any, until probably February or March of next year.

If you are planning to do English classes in your neighborhood remember that it is a hit or miss proposition. You will have to be willing to work when EVERYONE else is off, meaning night times and weekends and holiday's. Because that is the ONLY time your clients will have time to come and study.

Will you be able to offer anything other than "eikaiwa"? If not, goodl luck, because kids here need eiken training more than eikaiwa for entrance exams to JHS and HS and Uni. Will you be able to offer eiken clases, TOEFL, or TOEIC classes as well?

Eikaiwa is hit or miss and expectations will probably be higher than what you actually acheive. There are plenty of people here that offer what you are thinking about for free, and then again you will be going against established schools and juku's. You have to be able to offer a product that brings in customers on a REGULAR basis.

Sure you might be able to start something, but even if you offer lessons at 3,000 to 5,000 yen for 60 minutes 3 times a week you are going to need at the minimum of 30 to 40 students every single month to make the money that you think you need to live on...100,000 to 130,000 yen per month. Plus that is talking about group lessons. Can you handle a class of 15 to 20 people of ALL DIFFERENT levels, meaning possibly from ES to University or beyond in the same class environment?


Let me share with you a few things I have learned about eel, he is, I think, what is known as an ALT (Assistant Language Teacher) in a Japanese School. Now take that a few steps further, odds are he is on the JET, meaning he is a probably recent graduate of college and "fresh" into the real world. He came to Okinawa to assist in teaching Japanese kids in the classroom and has very altruistic ideals about the world Okinawa JET


You sure do know a lot about the world of English language education in Okinawa in general, and ALTs specifically. Are you one too? You sure talk like you are. If I was a betting man...

Let's look a little more.

Thistle thanks for sharing this........sorry but I can name at a minimum, just off the top of my head, 20 or 30 ES's that have a larger attendance than 220 kids.

Here is one Ueta ES in Tomigusuku has roughly 1,100 students in 1st through 6th grade.

There are numerous ES btw that have American as well as other countries children come and "visit" their schools for anywhere from a couple of days to a few months.


The kids would bring the money in an envelope to school and either drop it in the school lunch drop box or hand it to her or another office worker or teacher directly.


I have a feeling we have a lot more in common than you're willing to admit.

[Muku]

Damn went fishing today and all I caught was a;

http://www.lhwp.org.ls/images/photos/minnow.jpg:cursing:

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Don't be shy!

I was also heavily involved in PTA and on the board of directors of the school PTA

The only foreign men/fathers I know in these roles are English teachers. I know several on the mainland with the same experience. The schedule of an English teacher makes PTA participation much easier than those who work in business and other occupations.

[Muku]

The only foreign men/fathers I know in these roles are English teachers. I know several on the mainland with the same experience. The schedule of an English teacher makes PTA participation much easier than those who work in business and other occupations.


Then you never had children in a local Japanese school. :D

Edited to add.....
FYI, my oldest graduated from a Japanese ES school here and I learned quite a bit about the Japanese education system as a member of the board, also through my other children's participation in numerous local events, organizations and events.

My youngest sons still have a "seat" at their local schools as well.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

The majority of PTA members and executive are moms. Their schedules are much more flexible than the salaryman daddies. With the exception of ALT daddies.

Were you a JET? Because there are no public schools now paying that kind of money. In fact the price has gone down drastically. There are some schools that are only paying something in the neighborhood of 8,000 per day no benefits for 20 days of work per month, minus taxes.


You know quite a bit about ALTs work and pay. And, even more surprising, you are right more often when discussing ALT related stuff. THAT tells me something. :)

[Muku]

The majority of PTA members and executive are moms. Their schedules are much more flexible than the salaryman daddies. With the exception of ALT daddies.

Sure there are a lot of Mom's that are in the PTA Eele they have more time that is for sure, however I guess you also have never heard of the "Oyaji" Association and that there are countless numbers of fathers that are the PTA Presidents and the fathers that sit on the Boards as I did.

PTA meetings were and still are at night usually around 7PM or after. Plus the work I do in school is on weekends.:D

I still am a member of the PTA as well.:D

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Right, the oyaji association. Retired cops acting as truant officers, the two or three fathers than can get to the odd meeting by 7 p.m. or spare the odd Saturday, and some concerned community members. You're an English teacher, oh yeah!

[okisteve]

I have a feeling we have a lot more in common than you're willing to admit.

Now Eel, are you trying to get Muku to admit he's a gay recent college graduate?

[dk]

Now Eel, are you trying to get Muku to admit he's a gay recent college graduate?
Oh wow! Zing! Where did that come from?! :thumbup:

[Muku]

Eele think what you want to think, as always, however all I will add here is this....I never said I havent taught here, it is your assumption that I do. Big difference there eele.:D

Also I will add that you shouldnt be too sure of yourself about your ideas on PTA participation.

There are plenty of fathers that are involved, just because you may not see them they are there and for the most part do a lot of the dirty work around schools. I know I've done it as well.

I also have never heard of ALT's that are actively involved in the PTA's at the schools that they teach at either. Learn something everyday I guess.

[okisteve]

Oh wow! Zing! Where did that come from?! :thumbup:

All in fun dk, it goes back a while but I don't think anyone but the principals actually remember it.

[Muku]

Now Eel, are you trying to get Muku to admit he's a gay recent college graduate?

Boy I fell outta my chair on that one....:first::thumbup:

Next time warn an :old: fart like me, insurance only covers so much.:eek:

[okisteve]

Apologies all round.

I know that Eel is neither gay nor a recent college graduate, so you need to unwind my comment a little after you wipe up the beer.<3

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Also I will add that you shouldnt be too sure of yourself about your ideas on PTA participation.

There are plenty of fathers that are involved, just because you may not see them they are there and for the most part do a lot of the dirty work around schools. I know I've done it as well.

I also have never heard of ALT's that are actively involved in the PTA's at the schools that they teach at either. Learn something everyday I guess.

Who said anything about ALTs being actively involved in their own school's PTA? In their kid's school PTA, yes. They have a lot more free time than most other fathers. Yes, a few young fathers go to PTA meeting for their first or second grade kids, but really lose interest or have no time after that. The oyaji-kai are mostly the pops getting together for a few pops now and again and commiserating about how busy they are. Yeah, dads do a lot of patrol work. I'll give them that.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Eele think what you want to think, as always, however all I will add here is this....I never said I havent taught here, it is your assumption that I do.
The best way to show that my guess is wrong would be to deny that you are one, not to play word games. No need to be coy here. I'd bet dollars to donuts I'm right. Any takers?

[okisteve]

I got a donut on Eelecurb.

But hey, what's the big deal? Even I am back teaching as of this week and I love it. Motivated adults are way more fun than unmotivated teenagers (Duuhhhh!).... and mostly cute ladies too.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

They're rolling in already! :)

http://missmandible.com/ftp/homer_donuts.jpg

Nothing at all wrong with it okisteve...I'll bet Muk wishes his kids were OLs too!!

[Zorro]

Yeah, yeah. Some expert always comes in makes a wild declaration and either everybody salutes it because he is an "expert" or just because the wild declaration "sounds cool".

Zorro says English is too much of a hybrid to put it in one easy classification and deny any of its mothers and fathers, whether it be Norse, Norman, French, Latin, Gaelic or Celtic. Either that or you can put it in a classification of its own.

But, ok, if you really really want to put it into a classification its going to be based on the defintions and facets that some expert decided on. And based on that it may fall into Germanic. My experience tells me that they probably did not take enough things into account. In fact, its not possible. Take pronounciation for example. We have no recordings of ancient languages, so we cant tell how pronounciations developed.

In the end, none of it really matters anyway except as a point of interest. No English teacher needs the knowledge, and is probably better off without it.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

No English teacher needs the knowledge, and is probably better off without it.
Ah, you've got me! :thumbup1: Muk's definitely qualified in spades. :D

[okisteve]

Ah, you've got me! :thumbup1: Muk's definitely qualified in spades. :D

I say it's based on Garlic、but many technical words come from ancient Nerdse.

[Sex Wax]

You gotta admit, when you picture "Germanic", you get a brain pic of some dude in horns with a battle axe in the Black Forest, on a war horse. When you think of "Romantic", you picture some dork in leotards and a feather hat drinking wine beside a naked baby in some old painting. Hmmmmmm.....Cool Beer chugging, head lopping Barbarian, or Hose wearing, chubby chick painting, wine drinking pansey? I like the Barbarian History. I vote Germanic!....plus i like the harsh "K" sound.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... Zorro says English is too much of a hybrid to put it in one easy classification and deny any of its mothers and fathers, ...

Excellent points. Language categories, like race categories, are entirely arbitrary and mean absolutely nothing beyond the level of interpersonal and inter-communal communication.

These categories are only meant to simplify mutual understanding and talk of the differences in "languages." A language is really just a dialect with an Army and a Navy. All other varieties have gangs to defend them.

[okisteve]

Excellent points.

These categories are only meant to simplify mutual understanding and talk of the differences in "languages." A language is really just a dialect with an Army and a Navy. All other varieties have gangs to defend them.

Wow, you lost me there Ian!

[Isaak Brodsky]

What I meant was that language is just a concept. The process by which a language emerges on the world stage is called standardization. Since we’re talking about English as a language, we gotta look back to the way in which it came to be seen as a language. London, being the seat of power for the English-speaking world at the time, was also the social and economic center of that world. Those who had this power also had access to an army and a navy and so were able to assert power through a standardization process that played itself out over hundreds of years. Selection, suppression, codification, maintenance and a few other steps in the process gave us the thing we call English today.

Whoever were in positions to do so (likely those in the government or the court) were able to select the most appealing qualities of the language, suppress the qualities that weren’t, codify the selected qualities, and maintain in the academy the selected variety. Over the years, this once loose collection of tongues came to be known as English and whoever wanted to, and still wants to, participate in some aspect of public life for social, economic or political gain has gotta use the variety known as standard.

Those varieties contemptuously classified as dialects don’t really have the means to assert any sort of political power on the international stage. If an outsider wants to participate in such a community, he or she must contend with a gang rather than an army or a navy.

[Zorro]

Sexwax:
You gotta admit, when you picture "Germanic", you get a brain pic of some dude in horns with a battle axe in the Black Forest, on a war horse. When you think of "Romantic", you picture some dork in leotards and a feather hat drinking wine beside a naked baby in some old painting.

Stop peeking into my head!!!

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

A quote from a Richard Lederer book. He asserts that the mangled history of the English language gives us a three-tiered vocabulary of Anglo-Saxon, French, and classical synonyms that offer us at least three choices for conveying approximately the same meaning.

Bequeathing us the common words of everday life, many of them from a single syllable, Anglo-Saxon is the foundation of our language. Its directness, brevity, and plainness make us feel more deeply and see things about us more truly. The granduer, sonority, and courtliness of the French elements lift us to another, and more literary, level of expression. At the third tier, our Greek and Latin vocabulary arouse our minds to more complex thinking and the making of fine distinctions.

For example:

Anglo-Saxon - ask, French - question, Latin/Greek - interrogate

[eodmatt]

I speak English, German and a bit of Vietnamese, with a smattering of Portuguese and French. Thank God I never had to learn Latin: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

[Oki alumni]

I speak English, German and a bit of Vietnamese, with a smattering of Portuguese and French. Thank God I never had to learn Latin: (Link removed to conserve band-width)

Me FAVOURITE Latin phrase (ACTUALLY "Pseudo Latin") is: "Illigitimus Carborundum", which supposedly translates out into "Don't let the bastards grind you down!"

-Oki Alumni

[okisteve]

No, you old dolt... it's Non Illegitimi Carborundum. Now write that out 100 times by morning or...

[Muku]

No, you old dolt... it's Non Illegitimi Carborundum. Now write that out 100 times by morning or...

Flashbacks.......:scared::scared:

[okisteve]

I guess Muku didn't catch the video. Repetition isn't a bad way of learning stuff like that anyway. If I had someone with a stick over me I would know a lot more kanji than I do now.

[Muku]

I guess Muku didn't catch the video. Repetition isn't a bad way of learning stuff like that anyway. If I had someone with a stick over me I would know a lot more kanji than I do now.

Honestly no I didnt watch the video, but your comment Now write that out 100 times by morning or........ brought back memories.:-|

[Oki alumni]

No, you old dolt... it's Non Illegitimi Carborundum. Now write that out 100 times by morning or...

Why the nerve of YOU, you young whipper-snapper, jeep! You DARE question the wisdom of the ages? The "non" infers NOT....ergo summa YOUR flawed phraseology would mean "You carbonized (or barbequed) people"! Neener, neener, neener...caught ya in a mistaaaaaaaaaake! Now go stand over in the corner with TP and dk! :smile4: Face the WALL! ;)

(Do we read the same books?.....or what???) LOL

Perhaps it WAS/IS "Illigitimus Non-carborundum"??

-Oki Alumni:old:

[eodmatt]

Me transmitte sursum, caledoni!

[Oki alumni]

Watakushi incognito nes pa, mein paisan!

[Crazysix]

I guess Muku didn't catch the video. Repetition isn't a bad way of learning stuff like that anyway. If I had someone with a stick over me I would know a lot more kanji than I do now.
OK on my way get the beer ready:grin1:

[eodmatt]

Watakushi incognito nes pa, mein paisan!


Heh, le plume de ma tante..... ahh bollocks I give up you win :first: