DoDDS Teacher Arrested in Sex Case (offtopic about zoo)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Now that I think about it, I remember this Hubbard guy at Kubasaki. The name going over and over in my head finally placed.

A few years ago we had targeted his school to stop a field trip to Okinawa City's Zoo, and he was one of the decision makers as to whether the school would go ahead with it or not. We had a few teachers on the inside of the school supplying us with some private e-mail accounts and we had activists from around the world message to him/them.

The zoo trip then, as was every DODs School trip was that year, along with MCCS's tours of the zoo, were all cancelled. I distinctly remember his name. Afterwards he received a second round of messages of "Thanks" from around the world.

[P_chan]

Now that I think about it, I remember this Hubbard guy at Kubasaki. The name going over and over in my head finally placed.

A few years ago we had targeted his school to stop a field trip to Okinawa City's Zoo, and he was one of the decision makers as to whether the school would go ahead with it or not. We had a few teachers on the inside of the school supplying us with some private e-mail accounts and we had activists from around the world message to him/them.

The zoo trip then, as was every DODs School trip was that year, along with MCCS's tours of the zoo, were all cancelled. I distinctly remember his name. Afterwards he received a second round of messages of "Thanks" from around the world.

I know this is off topic but did you cancel a school's field trip because of your beliefs on animal rights? That sir is completely asinine and was done with no regard for other people's beliefs. Sure you may think it's wrong for zoo's to exist but it's not your decision on what other people should believe. Even if one of those children was your own, you don't have a right to tell those other kids whats wrong and whats right. That is up for their OWN parents to decide, and their's once they are old enough, NOT you! If I was a parent of one of those children I would protest against your actions. If they still canceled the trip, I would personally take all of the kids in my child's class to the zoo and let them decide what is wrong and what is right for themselves.

I'm sorry if I offend you with this but I hate once people do that. It's NEVER your choice to decide what someone else should believe is right. If you had kids in the class, then just pull them from the trip. Even though that is still wrong because you should let your kids decide something like that for themselves. That turns kids into adults who don't know how to make any decisions for themselves because they always had someone like their parents or some nut job group 'watching out' for them. That is how kids become little racist and hateful people instead of accepting people for who they are. That or they become sheltered little children who don't know how to stick up for themselves. Which is a huge problem with american children if you ask me.

[TheNoNamedOne]

You sir and a complete asshole who has no regard for other people's beliefs.

P_chan, could you try to not make it so personal and rude as such a direct insult like this? Your post could stand without making an invite to a flame war, or even give an example for others in the future.

Perhaps you just want to flame, and do not want discussion or a reply to your comments. I am inclined to address thoroughly all those posts which can show some maturity. Check your word choice please when using the pronoun "you".

Thanks.

[P_chan]

No I'm not going to change it sorry. It's something I strongly believe in. If it was anyone else who did that I would still think they are an ass. Sometimes things just have to be told the way they are. Like I said sorry if it offended you.

Now I'm waiting for that real reply.

[TheNoNamedOne]

No I'm not going to change it sorry. It's something I strongly believe in. If it was anyone else who did that I would still think they are an ass. Sometimes things just have to be told the way they are. Like I said sorry if it offended you.

Now I'm waiting for that real reply.

Apologies before a flame does not make it ok. Note that.

As a person, my whole is not defined by one event in my life. If you want to target that event by saying, "it is assinine to get a trip cancelled..." then fine. The event is fair play. A person's person, though is not fair play for it is the whole person.

That is why I, or anyone cannot go running around the forums calling people assholes. Now, consider how to call the event you disagree with me on as assinine and not myself as an asshole. I am giving you every opportunity to reason this out yourself.

Check yourself.

[DoctorP]

Apologies before a flame does not make it ok. Note that.

As a person, my whole is not defined by one event in my life. If you want to target that event by saying, "it is assinine to get a trip cancelled..." then fine. The event is fair play. A person's person, though is not fair play for it is the whole person.

That is why I, or anyone cannot go running around the forums calling people assholes. Now, consider how to call the event you disagree with me on as assinine and not myself as an asshole. I am giving you every opportunity to reason this out yourself.

Check yourself.

P-Chan he is right! Besides that it is against the forum rules to call him names. You can disagree with his ideas and call them assinine all you like, but do not degrade to the point of calling names.

[P_chan]

there I changed it are you happy now?

[DoctorP]

there I changed it are you happy now?

Ehhh...I'm moderately ok, but not necessarily HAPPY! :p

TY

[TheNoNamedOne]

there I changed it are you happy now?

Thank you for complying with the rules and mine and DrP's request.

You had some good comments and points in that post that I don't mind addressing, and I will do so shortly.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I know this is off topic but did you cancel a school's field trip because of your beliefs on animal rights?

I didn't cancel anything. School administrators made the decision to. I and others just put our concerns to the decision makers and let them decide.

That sir is completely asinine and was done with no regard for other people's beliefs. Sure you may think it's wrong for zoo's to exist but it's not your decision on what other people should believe.

Oh contraire. It was done in regard for others' beliefs (though I can't assure you about percentage). What had happened was that we got some stories published in local media here, a web site up (Kudos to you know who), and then were contacted by others about their opposition, too, to the zoo here.

The ball started to really roll when a certain 3rd grader girl read the story and had her mother contact us for her, who was in administration at one of the DODs schools, and then everything snowballed. All of a sudden we were getting emails from parents and PTA members saying their child just brought home the school year's schedule of events and they started networking with each other and emailing one another about the zoo trip telling each other there was a group here protesting the zoo.

I mean all these people, parents of these children, who were too timid to speak out against the zoo trip, were feeding us private administrative email accounts to have an affect in getting it stopped. We were merely the agent and the conduit for what they wanted done and how they wanted to assert some influence on what education their children would be having from going on a field trip to the zoo. Those parents have that right to assert that influence, and I am not responsible that they couldn't muster the courage and do it directly to the school officials in the open themselves.

And then MCCS people were contacting us saying we should bring this to the attention of their tour planning people. They didn't want to cause waves in the military community by dabbling with things that touched upon things off base, often citing, like the same reasons the parents did, that their husbands' jobs and careers meant that they could not become activists in the open here in Japan. Of course, I wish they would have come out in the open and that would have made my side easier, but they didn't. What they did was work hard from behind the screen by emailing officials and supplying us with not public accounts.

To be honest, it was frustrating to get a lot of email support but little out in the open support. But, hey, what can I say? In the internet age, and in a society where anonymity can protect one's job, career, and family, people are goiing to weigh in on an issue in a way that is advantagious to them and their beliefs. I wasn't going to turn away what help we could get. In fact, I appreciated it, and it did make a difference for our campaign then.

Check back later. I will answer some other parts of your post later. It deserves a thorough reply.

[Asshat]

Was this zoo issue due to the conditions at the zoo, or the zoo itself?

Also, by DoD regulation, all educators (and anyone else with unrestricted access to children) are vetted via federal background investigation. If there is anything pending in any US jurisdiction it is brought out. Even the small stuff that have no bearing on children/education.

[P_chan]

yes but not ALL of the students parents supported you. So what about those who didn't agree with you? Do they not matter because they don't agree with your beliefs? It would have been perfectly acceptable to just not allow your child to go if you didn't think it was good for them to go. Not go around policing other kids, even if the majority supported your decision. I wonder what the actual children believe or if their beliefs were just force fed from their parents, like that 3rd grader who read the story to her MOTHER! Seems like her mother was against it but that doesn't mean her daughter was against it. Not to mention they could learn some interesting things at zoos. Not that they couldn't learn that from a book but kids are allergic to books.

[TheNoNamedOne]

100% standard for agreement to change things through activism just does not occur -- particularly if you are talking about large groups. Can you give us some real life working examples where change in policy has come about through 100% of all those involved, decision makers and those who stand to benefit or lose from it? Well?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Was this zoo issue due to the conditions at the zoo, or the zoo itself?

The former.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Even if one of those children was your own, you don't have a right to tell those other kids whats wrong and whats right.

Everyone in a free society has the right to put their opinion across on matters of what they believe is right or wrong. That is not decided by the audience. That is why there can be campaigns and ads encouraging safe sex, abstinance, no smoking, no playing with fire, do not use drugs, etc...

Leaders of those ad campaigns as they try to change public opinion do not run around America getting tens of millions of permission from parents to do so before they launch their campaigns. Do you think they do?

That is up for their OWN parents to decide, and their's once they are old enough, NOT you!

Their parents decided that we should have access to the decision makers and that they would help in getting our message to them. Again, 100% is not a gold standard anyone goes by in activism.

If I was a parent of one of those children I would protest against your actions.

Perhaps some did. I don't know. If they did, it appears that their voice was not the well reasoned one to continue with the trip, or the one that was in the minority.

If they still canceled the trip, I would personally take all of the kids in my child's class to the zoo and let them decide what is wrong and what is right for themselves.

You mean with the permission of the parents, of course. But, how would you get a whole grade level, or just 30 kids in one class to the zoo? Would you rent a bus for that? Do you have a cheufer's license? There would be issues of insurance and liability, I would think. Maybe a "car pool of the willing" would be enough.

Anyways, I am not aware of anyone doing that for those many trips that were canceled. Perhaps some did. I don't know for sure. But at that time we had more than several eyes on the inside informing us of some of the inner talk in the schools about the zoo and the cancellations. The talk on the zoo was negative, and the cancellations talk was positive.

btw, it almost began to spread within the Japanese school systems. The zoo staff was furious and went to the school that was targeted by us, demanding that the teachers not let it go forward and told them how much time they were having to waste on this anti-zoo campaign.

[P_chan]

you see but thats the whole point. Everyone has the right to decide including you. However, by starting a trend of cancelling school trips to places you don't like your violating other people's rights to decide for themselves. Then those kids will be raised without the option of enjoying places like zoos where they could learn a lot about animals and see the helpful things that some zoos do. Your forcing your beliefs onto others. Make them aware of what you believe but don't keep them from doing it just because you have a moral qualm about something. That is being ignorant because your ignoring everyone else's beliefs and forcing what you think is 'right' onto others.

I know you can never get 100% but that is exactly why you shouldn't have forced your belief on them, even if the majority agreed with you. Sure you could have protested or suggested that the kids don't go, but you shouldn't keep them from going all together. That makes people with a very one sided (their side) view on things. In the long run it makes them less accepting of other beliefs.

Of course with the permission of the parents. Oh and who said I never had a bus license? Even if I had to only take 6 kids once a week every week until all of the kids from my child's class got to go, I would still do it. What your doing is giving them a one-track mind. Just because you belief it is right doesn't mean everyone else should have to belief it's right too. It's the same basic concept as racism against other races. Kids are taught that being racist is right and normal and should happen. Then we end up with a bunch of ignorant narrow-minded people who don't accept other individuals beliefs.

What does telling me that it almost spread to the japanese schools have to do with what I'm talking about? Other then to point out that you think your right and that everyone should believe with what you think?

Exactly there are campaigns to promote things and promote awareness. But keeping someone from going somewhere is not promoting awareness, thats forcing your views on them. You don't see safe sex promoters going around forcing people to wear condoms do you?

Anyways, I am not aware of anyone doing that for those many trips that were canceled. Perhaps some did. I don't know for sure. But at that time we had more than several eyes on the inside informing us of some of the inner talk in the schools about the zoo and the cancellations. The talk on the zoo was negative, and the cancellations talk was positive.
It's called jumping on the bandwagon. Everyone does it because no one can make decisions for them self anymore they need someone who thinks they are always right to do it for them.


Your also ignoring the minority that would want to go. I sure as hell know you would have a pissy fit if they ignored you because you were the minority. Then you would be going around trying to get stuff changed so your the majority. Oh wait your already doing that. The hypocrisy of the whole situation just makes my head spin.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I'm sorry if I offend you with this but I hate once people do that.

I'm not offended, P_chan. No need to apologise. I am comfortable debating those who do so against my views -- more so when they do so in a serious manner. You seem quite serious with your beliefs and discussion here. I think that is good.

It's NEVER your choice to decide what someone else should believe is right.

I am not sure what you mean here as it regards this topic. Are you inferring I forced someone to do something? ...to believe something? How did I decide what someone should believe?

I think you are confusing that with just presenting the opposing view and don't like that the opposing view (ours in this case) won out with those decision makers. Sorry, but that happens in democracies where debate and activism are allowed to be put forth. We are all the stronger for that.

If you had kids in the class, then just pull them from the trip. Even though that is still wrong because you should let your kids decide something like that for themselves.That turns kids into adults who don't know how to make any decisions for themselves because they always had someone like their parents or some nut job group 'watching out' for them.

The goal of activists is to affect change to their target -- not raise others' children.

In this case, it seems that the parents, the school decision makers, and even the kids were not too upset with the zoo cancellation plans. I don't recall reading any stories of children who were tramatized by it. One of the school's staff took hundreds of letters to the zoo from children asking them to change their ways and showing support for our action.

I was even invited to speak at a few, and a few teachers had read my correspondence to the children thinking them for their support. Sorry, but the children seemed to be on our side, as well as the parents and adults associated with the schools.

That is how kids become little racist and hateful people instead of accepting people for who they are. That or they become sheltered little children who don't know how to stick up for themselves. Which is a huge problem with american children if you ask me.

Ok, I will keep my eyes peeled for these future children in the news as they grow up. I am curious to see if there will be reports of debased or racist behaviour from them which stemmed from their experience here in Okinawa when they were deprived of a zoo field trip.

[DoctorP]

I seem to remember a guy (3rdEyeDown) who was quite the activist. His little tirade on the zoo eventually dwindled down though.

I suggest if you want to study animals on Okinawa you go to the mini mini zoo in Okinawa City. It is free (not huge) but you are right with the animals, they are not behind concrete walls 30 ft away. (in all fairness though, it is more of a boarding house than a zoo...and don't go in expecting too much, but it is enjoyable!)

[TheNoNamedOne]

yes but not ALL of the students parents supported you. So what about those who didn't agree with you? Do they not matter because they don't agree with your beliefs?

Perhaps their own thoughts on the topic didn't matter enough to them to make it so that the trips were not canceled. It is not my responsibility to play both sides of the issue. That's what activists do -- they fight for the side of the issue they support.

It would have been perfectly acceptable to just not allow your child to go if you didn't think it was good for them to go. Not go around policing other kids, even if the majority supported your decision.

No, because less gate sales means less profit for the zoo. The more acceptable thing is that the zoo lose the opportunity to make money off of the animals they pimp in horrible conditions.

I wonder what the actual children believe or if their beliefs were just force fed from their parents, like that 3rd grader who read the story to her MOTHER! Seems like her mother was against it but that doesn't mean her daughter was against it.

I can only go by what the mother told me in this particular case. The girl is the one that asked the mother to contact us because she was sad from the story and wanted to help. That is what the mother told me. I thought I kinda explained that, but perhaps I did a poor job at it, and that is why you seem to have got it backwards. Sorry for that.

Not to mention they could learn some interesting things at zoos. Not that they couldn't learn that from a book but kids are allergic to books.

Well, they could learn that tigers have black stripes, and girraffes have long necks. But I think most 3rd graders already know that. I geuss they could also learn that some animals pace back and forth out of their minds and that despite supposing to live in the wild, they can look miserable in small concrete enclosures.

But by not going, they also learned why their trips were canceled, and teachers explained why. That is a good education on activism and about not rewarding bad treatment of animals. And they learned that adding your voice to a story you come across in print media can have an affect.

Win win win -- all the way around! Education had!! Lesson learned!!!.

And it caused the zoo to be concerned enough to react and make some changes. A big THANKS to that 3rd grader who got the ball rolling in the schools. And I thought that activism at that age only existed and was highlighted on amazing stories on Oprah. Geuss I was wrong.

Being wrong does make you happy at times.

[P_chan]

But your directly infulencing the decision makers to see it your way. Pretty much having them do the dirty work for you. Your forcing them to believe your views are right by not achknowledgeing the other side of the argument. You say it's win, win, win. Yes for you so you don't care about the other side. Sure the zoos over here are little crap holes. But not all zoos are like that. The brookfield zoo back home in chicago is an example of a good zoo that actually teaches people about the animals rather then just whoreing them out like you think.

You take what I say out of context. I'm not saying that you keeping them from going to a zoo is making them a racist. I'm saying the way of thinking that everything that you think is wrong, everyone should think is wrong too. That makes very narrow-minded people who don't accept others views who aren't the same as their own. They don't have to believe in them but they should not force theirs on those people because they think their right and everyone else is wrong.

Exactly it's not your side to play both of the issues. Yet your always preching about debate aren't you? Your kind of contradicting yourself there. Why should thier arguement be seen as bad and your's seen as right?

Yes you went off of what the mother told you. She probably exagerated what her daughter told her, and then you exagerated what she told you. Ever hear of chinese telephone? I have a feeling her daughter just didn't like to see the animals in cages and her mother blew it out of proportion to support her own agenda. Happens all the time with 'activist'.

Once again, not all zoos are like the one's in okinawa. Major zoos in the states actually teach children about animals and their habitats and are trying to conserve nature. So now some of these children will have a bad view about all zoos and never see the good that some zoos do. Which obviously you don't care because now they are on your side.

[TheNoNamedOne]

you see but thats the whole point. Everyone has the right to decide including you. However, by starting a trend of cancelling school trips to places you don't like your violating other people's rights to decide for themselves.

As a group they did decide for themselves. All we did was provide them with information. Are you suggesting activists cannot provide information on their beliefs about an issue? Kids or schools are to live in a vaccuum separate from issues?

Make them aware of what you believe but don't keep them from doing it just because you have a moral qualm about something. That is being ignorant because your ignoring everyone else's beliefs and forcing what you think is 'right' onto others.

We did make them aware. And we did not exert any kind of force. What are you talking about? They could have gone! They decided not to. How did we force them? There was no forcing.

I know you can never get 100% but that is exactly why you shouldn't have forced your belief on them, even if the majority agreed with you. Sure you could have protested or suggested that the kids don't go, but you shouldn't keep them from going all together.

<sigh>

Again, no forcing our belief. All those kids believe what they want. We sure did not send them to an indoctrination camp like in Vietnam, China, or N.Korea.

@underline: That is exactly what we did! Just as you said what we could do. We did that! In the end they decided not to go after being made aware of the situation from the information we provided.

What your doing is giving them a one-track mind.

It is called persuasion through awareness. They are always free to change their minds, and being quite young, like you mentioned in the "Kids with high IQs More Likely to become Vegetarian" thread, probably will. Or are you now retracting that -- that young children often change their minds?

Just because you belief it is right doesn't mean everyone else should have to belief it's right too.

Never said they should have to. Don't think we would have convinced them if we told them they had to believe it is right to not go to the zoo.My thought on the issue is that it would be nice if they chose to believe so. Awareness made their working group choose to not go to this particular zoo.

It's the same basic concept as racism against other races. Kids are taught that being racist is right and normal and should happen. Then we end up with a bunch of ignorant narrow-minded people who don't accept other individuals beliefs.

Oh, I see... kinda like:

It's the same basic concept as speciecism againts other species. Kids are taught that being a speciecist is right and normal and should happen. Then we end up with a bunch of ignorant narrow-minded people who don't accept other beings' desire not to be the target of exploitation and suffering.

Gotcha. <wink>

Your also ignoring the minority that would want to go. I sure as hell know you would have a pissy fit if they ignored you because you were the minority. Then you would be going around trying to get stuff changed so your the majority. Oh wait your already doing that. The hypocrisy of the whole situation just makes my head spin.

There is no hypocracy. I totally accept I am the minority on animal issues and know I have it cut out for me to try and help others change the situation. I also totally accept the right of the majority to continue resisting change. This is the dance of democracy and how the status quo changes. In this case, had parents who wanted their children to go on the zoo trip won out by keeping the schedule unchanged, I would tip my hat to them and just acknowledge we need to have a better plan next time. That's all.

That time, however, we had the better plan and awareness let the children and staff decide to not go to the zoo on a field trip.

I have no problem with giving credit and saying "Kudos to you. Nice fight. See ya in the next battle."

[P_chan]

You provide them with information yes. Your information about what you believe and you don't acknowledge the fact that not all zoos are bad. That is forcing your beliefs on someone, you just doing it in a way that leaves your hands clean.

SUGGESTING and PROTESTING are two totally different things!

Yes young kinds will always change their mind. Just like adults will always change their mind and way of life so they feel less guilty about what they do. I bet a majority of those kids you though you were helping really don't give a crap. They were probably more pissed off they didn't get a day off of school to go on a trip.

See racism and exploiting (I use that VERY loosely) animals are two totally different things. A HUMAN is your fellow man and deserves to be treated like a human being. Animals are just that, animals. They have a right to live but we also have a right to use them how we see fit. Just because you love them so much doesn't mean everyone else should have to do the same and cater to you. I see animals as just another member in the food chain. We need food to live and if we want to eat animals, well then we will do that and I don't care how many activists cry about it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

But your directly infulencing the decision makers to see it your way.

Yes. Nothing wrong with directly influencing the decision makers through persuasion by presenting facts or our views.

Your forcing them to believe your views are right by not achknowledgeing the other side of the argument.

A side in whatever argument of opposing sides is under no obligation to acknowledge or introduce the argument of the other side. That is their job -- not the one opposing them.

Your reasoning would require that those who are against children smoking to also present the argument that some children may have for them being able to smoke.

You say it's win, win, win. Yes for you so you don't care about the other side.

Yes, it is win, win, win. The process of debate on an issue is open for discussion to young minds, and they get to see how activism creeps into lives over issues they may not have considered before. It is a learning opportunity for them, and those students and their parents who wanted the trip to the zoo to continue had the chance to speak up for their beliefs. Not my resposibility if they did not do that, or if they did, could not present their argument persuasively to win out.

Sure the zoos over here are little crap holes. But not all zoos are like that. The brookfield zoo back home in chicago is an example of a good zoo that actually teaches people about the animals rather then just whoreing them out like you think.

Well, our campaign was not about the Brookfield zoo. Our campaign was not against zoos in general. It was about a particular issue with this zoo here.

[TheNoNamedOne]

You take what I say out of context. I'm not saying that you keeping them from going to a zoo is making them a racist. I'm saying the way of thinking that everything that you think is wrong, everyone should think is wrong too.

I think murder is wrong. Is it wrong for me to think that everyone should think murder is wrong? It only takes one example to show your reasoning flawed. One. That's all.

In any event, one should, and it is only natural that if they believe they are fighting against an injustice, it is therefore right for them to believe that it is wrong for the opposing view to harbor a belief contrary to theirs.

I think slavery is wrong. Is it wrong of me to think that everyone should think slavery is wrong? Then if they agree with me, does that make them a racist, or lead them to a thought pattern that brings them racism?

That is a bonus extra one for you.

That makes very narrow-minded people who don't accept others views who aren't the same as their own.

Oh, I see. Some people should think, or entertain the thought, that murder and slavery is right. Having a wider view on what is acceptable keeps them from being narrow minded.

They don't have to believe in them but they should not force theirs on those people because they think their right and everyone else is wrong.

Yes. Our laws should not force or encourage people to act and agree that murder and slavery are wrong. I guess all those Abolitionists were wrong before the law/emancipation actually came into place prohibiting slavery as they fought and campaigned against it.

Btw, never recall them giving the pros of slavery for others to consider so that the other side doesn't become narrow minded, do you? I think they wanted to stamp it out as quickly and as forcefully as they possibly could.

Bear with me, P_chan. I am catching up little by little. But don't feel like you have to wait for me to catch up to reply. Feel free to do so anytime when you can counter a point I have made or addressed those of yours.