Good Employees So Hard to Find

[japan-diver]

Why is it that good employees on Okinawa are so hard to find. Have been looking for workers for awhile now and have found that the majority of applicants are just bad workers - can't show up on time, show up drunk or hung over or don't want to put in a full days work. As must of our work requires someone to be bilingual or at least get by in both languages a bit it is also amazing on an island such as this truly bilingual people are very hard to find.

For the people out here looking for work a few hints:

1. Show up for a job interview dressed nicely- maybe not a suit but shorts and a t-shirt or ripped jeans not a good idea.

2. Addressing the interviewer by hey dude- not a good idea

3. Showing up late for a scheduled interview not a good idea, but if you get stuck in traffic call at least.

4. Showing up still smelling like the bar you were in last night not a good idea.

5. Do not put the person who fired you from your last job as a reference for your new one.


Just a few notes after some great interviews lately.

By the way still need some DM/Instructors and boat Captains full time, long term positions

[Asshat]

You make some good points, but they beg the question; how much are you paying? My point here is the old axiom, you get what you pay for.

Also: Do you offer a visa package? Or are you looking for expats, dependants etc who already have ability to reside here legally?

And what credentials do you require of your boat captains? Japan Class One?

[dk]

You make some good points, but they beg the question; how much are you paying? My point here is the old axiom, you get what you pay for.

Also: Do you offer a visa package? Or are you looking for expats, dependants etc who already have ability to reside here legally?

And what credentials do you require of your boat captains? Japan Class One?
Exactly.

The reason good workers are so hard to come by is because they get paid like crap, treated like crap, and then either get a base job or move back to the states. I have yet to find a truly outstanding job on Okinawa. I love working with JU because of the flexibility, but by "outstanding job" I am talking about benefits, compensation, work atmosphere, etc. In my opinion, there are more quality workers here than there are quality jobs.

[TheLastDon]

Exactly.

The reason good workers are so hard to come by is because they get paid like crap, treated like crap, and then either get a base job or move back to the states. I have yet to find a truly outstanding job on Okinawa. I love working with JU because of the flexibility, but by "outstanding job" I am talking about benefits, compensation, work atmosphere, etc. In my opinion, there are more quality workers here than there are quality jobs.

Yep, you guys took the thoughts right out of my head.

I had great experiences:rolleyes: working off base but I really don't want to turn this into a rant.

[Asshat]

Yep, you guys took the thoughts right out of my head.

I had great experiences:rolleyes: working off base but I really don't want to turn this into a rant.

Again, diver makes some good points. I have complained about employees, then realized those employees were young, and paid squat.

[dk]

Again, diver makes some good points. I have complained about employees, then realized those employees were young, and paid squat.
I give to my jobs what I get out of them. If a job pays me crap (and I'm dumb enough to take it), I give them what I feel is a fair amount of work for those wages. For the amount of work I do for JU, they pay me very well, so I am happy to take good care of them. With another job that I recently quit, I really don't think they had an ounce of care that I might be feeling underpaid or might, for instance, like neat nifty things like health benefits.

[okisteve]

Again, diver makes some good points. I have complained about employees, then realized those employees were young, and paid squat.

OK, I'm a hypocrite because I will never be in that position, but.... someone is young and is looking for any kind of job a) to stay on island if American or b) to save up for a scooter or cellphone if Okinawan (2 likely reasons), then why can't they suck it up and put in a days work, do a good job for a few months and keep an eye out for something better. Where I lived in a small town in the US there were hardly any 'good' jobs, and it was very common for even well-qualified newcomers or kids to even do volunteer work until something better came along. It's also called networking, aka - having a little patience and not expecting the world to be handed to you.

[Asshat]

OK, I'm a hypocrite because I will never be in that position, but.... someone is young and is looking for any kind of job a) to stay on island if American or b) to save up for a scooter or cellphone if Okinawan (2 likely reasons), then why can't they suck it up and put in a days work, do a good job for a few months and keep an eye out for something better. Where I lived in a small town in the US there were hardly any 'good' jobs, and it was very common for even well-qualified newcomers or kids to even do volunteer work until something better came along. It's also called networking, aka - having a little patience and not expecting the world to be handed to you.

Your comment goes without saying Steve and is the crux of the OP. I agree with that 100%. To take it a step further, IMHO, a person should take every task he or she does and do it the best they can.

And that does mean showing up looking good for an interview- especially if you have taken the time to apply in the first place. I also didn't want to turn this into a bitch fest about the current group of youngsters entering the job market.

I am old fashioned about that, and wear a tie and smell fresh, shave, etc even for a job as a ditch digger...if I want the job.

[dk]

OK, I'm a hypocrite because I will never be in that position, but.... someone is young and is looking for any kind of job a) to stay on island if American or b) to save up for a scooter or cellphone if Okinawan (2 likely reasons), then why can't they suck it up and put in a days work, do a good job for a few months and keep an eye out for something better.
Problem is, there's almost nothing better than crap unless you a) are willing to work on base or b) have prior military service / security clearnance or c) don't mind teaching English even though you've blown years in college tuition studying something completely different than ESL.

I have been keeping an eye out for something better for the past four years before I finally said **** it and quit the job I recently quit. A few problems that I have personally faced:

There is a huge demand for people in networking and systems administration out here, but most companies are not looking for developers even though it WILL most likely have a solid impact on their business to have one around. Which may be due to my next point.
The companies that are hiring don't have enough money to actually hire somebody. In the past two years, I have been offered jobs for half of what I was making and 25% of what I was making. Both jobs wanted me to give up my job at JU, which is easy money and fun work. Had a salary of Y450,000 a month off base as a programmer working two jobs, which isn't bad at all, and one company wanted to hire me on for a total of Y200,000 and the other offered me Y100,000. Y100,000???!!! Give me a f'ing break. Halfway through my Master's, eight years of development experience, and I'm offered Y100,000 a month? Shit, don't even advertise that you are looking for employees if you're not ready to pay them...I'm not trying to rant. These are just two challenges I've faced. I end up making out better freelancing in terms of yen/hour...

[dk]

By the way, if anybody is looking for a good employee and is actually able to pay a decent salary and provide at least the bare necessities in terms of benefits, feel free to shoot me a PM. I am not looking to get away from systems development, however. I am going to be picky.

[japan-diver]

You make some good points, but they beg the question; how much are you paying? My point here is the old axiom, you get what you pay for.

Also: Do you offer a visa package? Or are you looking for expats, dependants etc who already have ability to reside here legally?

And what credentials do you require of your boat captains? Japan Class One?

Pay is based on experience and ability, commissions on gear sales and trips also leaves the quite a bit of room to make very good pay. We can offer a visa if the person has the qualifications. Japan class one with passenger rating is needed to drive the boat, we can sponsor the test if you have an equivalent from US or other country. Upgrades from Japan class 2 (old class 4) can also be arranged.

As someone else asked no I did not hire any of the people mentioned in the post.

I do agree you get what you pay for, but since in my business ability usually comes with experience you should not expect to start at the top end of the salary range if you don't have experience. Also if you agree to a job at a certain salary you should do the job and do it well, remember you agreed to the salary. If after some time showing your ability and you think you deserve a raise then talk to the boss and come to a new agreement or look for something else, doing a half ass job will never get you moved up.

[Asshat]

Now I am wondering.....do I know you? lol. I can get the Class 1 upgrade very easily, and have navigated all of Japan's waters, (not just Okinawa) but I never thought for a minute that this was a skill that would be lucritive to the point of visa/livlihood.

I'll shoot you a PM later about this.

[kinville_warrior]

The companies that are hiring don't have enough money to actually hire somebody. In the past two years, I have been offered jobs for half of what I was making and 25% of what I was making. Both jobs wanted me to give up my job at JU, which is easy money and fun work. Had a salary of Y450,000 a month off base as a programmer working two jobs, which isn't bad at all, and one company wanted to hire me on for a total of Y200,000 and the other offered me Y100,000. Y100,000???!!! Give me a f'ing break. Halfway through my Master's, eight years of development experience, and I'm offered Y100,000 a month? Shit, don't even advertise that you are looking for employees if you're not ready to pay them...[/LIST]I'm not trying to rant. These are just two challenges I've faced. I end up making out better freelancing in terms of yen/hour...

That is the same problem I faced while looking for a job on Okinawa. The average offer for a Senior Enterprise Management Architect with 13 years Exp.(I.T. Consultant) was $40k /yr on the island. Here in the States, I wouldn't get out of bed for $40 an hour. Insulting:cursing:... Tokyo paid good rates, but we all know the story there.

[Crazysix]

By the way, if anybody is looking for a good employee and is actually able to pay a decent salary and provide at least the bare necessities in terms of benefits, feel free to shoot me a PM. I am not looking to get away from systems development, however. I am going to be picky.
LOOK my man whore stables has openings....send me a pm with your resume and I can fit you in .:thumbup:

[dk]

That is the same problem I faced while looking for a job on Okinawa. The average offer for a Senior Enterprise Management Architect with 13 years Exp.(I.T. Consultant) was $40k /yr on the island. Here in the States, I wouldn't get out of bed for $40 an hour. Insulting:cursing:... Tokyo paid good rates, but we all know the story there.
That's what I'm saying. I'd rather earn, hell, $20k a year working at home, waking up whenever the hell I want, than work for a company 8 hours a day for $30k after already paying my dues. That extra $10k just isn't enough to take me away from my family if I can put food on the table without putting myself into what I feel is employment slavery...

I've made over $1000 this month alone freelancing without even really trying. If I actually put forth the effort to drum up some business--which I would do if I decided that this is the path I want to take--I could do a lot more.

But for now, I'm just waiting for that right pitch. Like baseball, I'm not going to swing until something worthwhile comes my way. Sick of working for half-assed businesses run by half-assed businessmen.

[dk]

LOOK my man whore stables has openings....send me a pm with your resume and I can fit you in .:thumbup:
Hey, I don't mind part-timing that shit, as long as the drinks are on the house. :D

No resume needed. I'm D-to-the-****in-K yo.

[DoctorP]

I just hired a guy to help me out diver...not an easy task! But you know what, I prefer to see someone in their real light. If you dress up a turd...you might not recognize them as a turd until it is too late.

Clothes don't make the man, but I do agree with you to a point. Let me see the guy in his natural state though and see how he carries himself. I can make a better decision. Some people are really good at BS and can fake their way through an interview!

[dk]

I just hired a guy to help me out diver...not an easy task! But you know what, I prefer to see someone in their real light. If you dress up a turd...you might not recognize them as a turd until it is too late.

Clothes don't make the man, but I do agree with you to a point. Let me see the guy in his natural state though and see how he carries himself. I can make a better decision. Some people are really good at BS and can fake their way through an interview!
True that. I was once told by an American at a web conference that you can tell a lot about a person by the shoes they wear. My reply was something along the lines of, "You've never lived in Japan, have you?"

My pants are getting pretty rough at the bottoms, and my shoes are starting to develop holes everywhere. I don't buy suits because for the most part they are not necessary for a development job. I don't wear ties either because they're impractical, for the most part. I get to buy new clothes and shoes about once every two years when I make it back to the states. So if someone wants to take a five second judgment at me, go right ahead. He/she's probably not worth working for to begin with. He can judge me on my style and I'll judge him on his superficiality.

Maybe they'll get a job as a fashion consultant someday.

[DoctorP]

well dk, reading what I wrote earlier, I contradicted myself a bit. If you are going to work at a bank, don't show up in a ripped t-shirt and sandles...but you don't need a 3-piece suit either. I mean just look presentable.

But you really can be a better judge of a person when they are in their natural state.

[dk]

If you're going to be dealing with customers directly, dress up. If you're going to be stuck in the back, managing a database, it shouldn't matter what the hell you're wearing, period. My last employer tried to put us IT people into uniforms. For what?! You want to make dress code standards, that's fine. You want to dress your IT department up like burger king employees, **** you.

I wear my nicest clothes anytime I have to meet a potential customer, which is usually a pair of slacks (shredded at the bottom from wear and tear...) and a decent shirt. If they want more, they can buy me a damn shirt that fits. If they want quality, they've come to the right place.

[dk]

But you really can be a better judge of a person when they are in their natural state.
You can be a better judge of what they like, but you really can't tell what they know based on how they dress. If you're looking for tech guru, hell, they could be wearing boxers and a t-shirt, smelling of hot pockets. If you're interviewers aren't able to discern quality from crap, it's time to replace the interviewers because they obviously have no idea of what they're actually interviewing for!

[japan-diver]

Dk if all the businessmen suck, start your own business and double or triple your income. A typical rant of all the employers suck, if I owned the company it would be much better- well then start a company and show us how its done, you can be the first company on island to pay great wages and offer full benefits and whatever else you think all employers should do.

How a person dresses is not that important but if you don't think an job interview is important enough to dress appropriately for you obviously don't think the job is that important. I don't mean suit and tie either- in fact if someone applied for a DM job in a shirt and tie, I would start to wonder if they are right for the job at hand. But put on a decent pair of pants and shirt, shower and look like you want the job. If you enter an interview with a much to obvious attitude of "I don't care if you offer me the job or not" you are definately not going to get a very good offer from anyone if you get an offer at all.

For those of you comparing salaries to Tokyo, have you compared the cost of living - a rabbit hutch apartment in Tokyo Y160,000 a month or more, just looked at a new house on Sunabe 2 stories 3br, kitchen living room, 2 car parking Y100,000 a month rent or outside of town even cheaper. You can live pretty well on $30,000- $40,000 a year in Okinawa- I wouldn't want to try it in Tokyo w/wife and kids. Don't expect a Tokyo salary in Okinawa.

Asshat- you might know me - drop by the shop, across the street from Chatan , Miyagi Post Office if we aren't diving we are there all day.

[dk]

You can live pretty well on $30,000- $40,000 a year in Okinawa- I wouldn't want to try it in Tokyo w/wife and kids. Don't expect a Tokyo salary in Okinawa.
This is the mistake a lot of people are making, in my opinion. Businesses here are paying lower salaries because they know they can get away with it. I made over $50k a year for the past six years on Okinawa. That's not bad. I did it by always looking for something better and creating a better life for myself by myself. I also did it without working on base.

And if I ever do open up shop, you bet I won't be hiring on employees full-time until I'm able to, at the very least, provide decent salaries and benefits. I'd love to open up shop right now, but it's very difficult to start a new business when you're already going into debt paying for an advanced degree. Plus, I have my doubts that the business I want to start is even worth starting on Okinawa.

And I agree, show up to interviews prepared. But be honest with yourself. If a company looks like shit when you show up, it probably is. How is their furniture? How is their flooring? If it's an IT company, how do their PC workstations look? Are the desks homemade, or was the company actually willing to buy decent quality tools for their employees. Ask to have a look around. Try to talk to some of the current employees. Dig up dirt about the company online. If you can find ex-employees, even better. Try to hear both sides of the company: the good, and the bad. This is advice I wish I had heard in the past.

I understand we're arguing both sides of the spectrum. I think we're actually arguing the truly opposite sides of the spectrum in that you're talking about truly horrific employees and I'm talking about truly horrific business.

Just be careful, any of you who are actually looking to enter the job market on Okinawa. This isn't the states. You will not earn $80k a year out here unless you are insanely lucky. However, don't accept a $20k/year job if you've busted your ass to get through college. Keep looking around and applying for other jobs. You'll make out better in the long run. Eventually, hopefully, these crap businesses will go out of business.

[dk]

Dk if all the businessmen suck, start your own business and double or triple your income. A typical rant of all the employers suck, if I owned the company it would be much better- well then start a company and show us how its done, you can be the first company on island to pay great wages and offer full benefits and whatever else you think all employers should do.
Looks like you're getting defensive. How are your salaries? How are your benefits? I don't recall saying that all the local businesses suck. I can think of a few right now--off-base even--that I would love to work for.

[DougP]

The employees, workers etc are always going to want better salaries, working conditions and benefits. Employers are always going to want better workers and a financial ratio that is in their favor and keeping with a good Debt ratio. Its almost impossible though to have it one way with out having it the other. By that I mean you cannot just start out a business and have everything right as rain and up to every employees expectations. Most small business owners or newb entrepreneurs do not have the funding needed for all the things most of us as workers want.

The strain that's often put into place on such business owners(employers) such as minimum wage is enough to keep a lot of would be small business owners out of the market. This can have some unwanted side effects. Less small business owners and new businesses means less competition. Less competition means that there is less incentive for other businesses to increase the quality of their products and or services. It can lead to monopolies be it small or large. Often it will trickle down to the employees as there's not too many other businesses in the same fields for the workers to go to. Competition usually leads to a lot of things. It in itself can generate lower costs. Market competition also brings along better services there's more incentive to do better, more incentive for the employer to increase pay and benefits for his or her employees to keep them from going over to another business.

All in all a lot of these things are very much intertwined. Some of the businesses here fall prey to the lack of demand of their services especially when we're talking about IT. Other than the military there doesn't seem to be as big of a market for IT here. It seems more like most of the non military IT jobs here that do have good pay and benefits are the ones that are outsourced positions. In other words, companies from mainland opening IT service centers or help desk centers due to the low cost. Their main customers are not here but up in mainland. Unless there is a huge demand for such services here outside of base, I don't expect the small IT firms that cater to local clients to carry the same benefit packages and wages the bigger firms from mainland do. It sucks I know. It might be possible for some employers to squeeze out a bit more by adding costs to the total liabilities altering the debt ratio in a way that is less appealing to the employer. This basically comes down to whether or not a boss/business owner is willing to give up some of their money to give the employee some more. Most of us may not be willing to do so... some of us might. It becomes harder I'm sure when you have to add even more to total liabilities because you have a few employees working for you. Helping out a team of ten might be a lot easier than a team of 30 or 50.

[dk]

Here is a scenario: Employee begins working for employer. Company currently staffed by a few people plus Employee. Combined effort of all employees leads Company to become more successful. Rather than purchasing benefits or increasing wages, what does the company do? Hire more workers at sub-par benefits and wages. Cycle continues, company grows, benefits and competitive salaries not provided, employees walk. Knowledge retention--and sometimes intellectual property--goes out the window.

But this is one reason why I believe that a lot of business on Okinawa is very "fly by night". In my opinion, to start a business, one should come up with a plan and raise the funds necessary to provide a decent salary and benefits to whatever the planned amount of employees was in the plan. If it works out, great! If it doesn't work out, either something wasn't taken into consideration or the plan was just crap.

It seems a lot of people out here are skipping the whole planning phase and moving right into "I can't pay you much right now, but if you help my company grow, I'll reward you with more money."

I know, a lot of businesses just can't afford quality employees. In that case, they get what they pay for, and in some cases they even get more than they pay for.

If you're going to go into business, you should have planned out all of your expenses of doing business including employee compensation. If you set aside an appropriate amount of money on top of all of your other expenses to provide a competitive salary, you'll get higher caliber employees. If you don't and you get stuck with a bunch of uneducated or inexperienced "I'll take any job i can get" employees, it's your own fault.

And sheesh, this is only one part of running a successful operation...

[DougP]

The scenario you painted (and I image was derived from actual events.:D) is one of a business owner not having good sense. Although the business has been able to grow and the owner has been able to profit he's left the back door unsecured and open for foreseeable pitfalls. Employees walking is just the tip of the iceberg. The loss of things such as carnal knowledge of the businesses infrastructure (what's been going on behind the curtain) is not a good thing. For one this is something the owner should have been very intimately involved in. Not staying on par with this also leads to loss of intellectual property that has enhanced the company. Basically when an employer/owner sits back and lets everyone else run his or her company, they can only reap the benefits for so long. Eventually that kind of laziness will be their down fall.

And you are right you get what you pay for. But if an owner can get by on the bare minimum and there's nothing pushing him to do better or "pay" for better, chances are they wont. Also if there is a great pool of workers out there will to do the work (great or not) for substandard pay the cycle will continue. As long as the business is not forced to step up the quality of their service or product they will not need better employees. I think that if an employee who is far more qualified is working in such a position for less than what they are worth it is a reflection of the demand present in the market. If there was a greater demand for these services and better quality at that, there would be more firms out there competing for customers. Such a valuable employee with a mountain of qualifications would not have to work for such an employer for too long. How often have you heard someone say "Man if there was something better out there right now, I'd take it!" or "I'm only still here because there's not much else to choose from."

I guess you can say that even small mom and pop businesses, like local ISPs, can be just as ruthless as big corporations. :)

[dk]

Good points Doug, and I still think that no matter how desperate things seem, employees should keep sticking it to their employers in terms of demands for at least basic benefits. I'm not talking 401(k), in-office daycare, etc. I'm talking health insurance and making sure that your employees are covered in case they are injured.

Good thing about the second point is that even if you are injured on the job and the company you are working for isn't paying insurance, from what I've read about the topic, most of the time the company's still get stuck with the bill. It'd personally mean a lot to me, though, if I knew that the company did it's homework and covered all the bases.

And yeah, there was quite a bit of my own story in that scenario, as you already know from our toraji sessions. :D

[dk]

I guess you can say that even small mom and pop businesses, like local ISPs, can be just as ruthless as big corporations. :)
I wouldn't attribute it to ruthlessness. I attribute it to a lack of proper prioritization. Employees were given lower priority than hardware in some ways.

[okisteve]

That's a great theory (your business plan) dk, but when you're in an industry that is so competitive (lots of reasons, not least is that it is global and you are competing with people who are working for a lot less than you would be happy with; also it's growing so fast that in general supply and demand will not be in balance).

So the reality is that the IT entrepreneur and his employees have to suck it up until they are established. If the employer chooses to expand by hiring many more cheap employees, he is only responding to the market as he perceives it. You're right, that it might just be a bad decision, in which case he will be looking for a job himself soon, older, wiser, and poorer.

[DougP]

I wouldn't attribute it to ruthlessness. I attribute it to a lack of proper prioritization. Employees were given lower priority than hardware in some ways.

Its still rather vicious though isn't it. I'm actually used to working around equipment that's worth more than ten years of my salary.:) But yes employees should do what they must in order to look out for themselves. Ultimately that decision is up to them. The decision of whether to stay or to go. If its possible for employees and employer to meet on common ground then all the better. I do think that there are many successful businesses that put their employees first and second only to their customers/clients. I think you may know of someone or a few people that run businesses and are wonderful employers. It is possible.:)

[dk]

That's a great theory (your business plan) dk, but when you're in an industry that is so competitive (lots of reasons, not least is that it is global and you are competing with people who are working for a lot less than you would be happy with; also it's growing so fast that in general supply and demand will not be in balance).

So the reality is that the IT entrepreneur and his employees have to suck it up until they are established. If the employer chooses to expand by hiring many more cheap employees, he is only responding to the market as he perceives it. You're right, that it might just be a bad decision, in which case he will be looking for a job himself soon, older, wiser, and poorer.
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of what I'm saying is perfect-world situation, but I do not think that it is too much to expect to be treated to at least the bare minimum in terms of benefits if you feel that you are deserving of them. Hey, if you've got low self-esteem, just need a job, etc, then take any job you can get your hands on. But if you're selective, like I have grown to be, take your time. It's highly likely the employer who eventually hires you will have its act together more than the little mom and pop shop you turned down.

Do you think people who have spent a lot of time, energy, and money on their education and experience should NOT expect decent treatment and to just accept whatever is offered? Would you? If I offered you a job in your field for $20k a year and no benefits and you were not currently employed, would you take it? Why, or why not? And yes, I am talking about your current situation, not one where you possibly just moved to the island or got out of the military and just needed to put food on the table. I am talking about now, with your education and experience.

[dk]

I think you may know of someone or a few people that run businesses and are wonderful employers. It is possible.:)
Believe me, I do. From what I have seen and read, there are reasons why I am no longer willing to accept subpar treatment / compensation or simply stand by and watch my coworkers be given subpar treatment.

[DougP]

Do you think people who have spent a lot of time, energy, and money on their education and experience should NOT expect decent treatment and to just accept whatever is offered? Would you? If I offered you a job in your field for $20k a year and no benefits and you were not currently employed, would you take it? Why, or why not? And yes, I am talking about your current situation, not one where you possibly just moved to the island or got out of the military and just needed to put food on the table. I am talking about now, with your education and experience.

Would I? Hell NO. Luckily for me I'm in that position right now:) Last year? hell yes sign me up!! I believe that is exactly what those kind of positions are for. People either needing to get their foot in the door or who are in need of some stable income. If an employer is expecting more and is not wise to the kind of employee such salaries and working conditions attract then he is in the dark. It is possible for him to still get a diamond in the rough or two. But expecting to be able to string such high caliber employees along who are obviously not doing it for the sheer enjoyment of watching their employer profit, is a pipe dream. I'd much rather have people working for me (hypothetically if I ever owned a business) that enjoyed coming to work. I personally like the team mentality to a work environment as apposed to a hierarchical one, although the latter is often necessary.

[DougP]

Believe me, I do. From what I have seen and read, there are reasons why I am no longer willing to accept subpar treatment / compensation or simply stand by and watch my coworkers be given subpar treatment.

And you of all people shouldn't!! Hell you should at least be teaching some of that stuff:thumbup:

[okisteve]

dk, I think we are talking about different things. My post was an explanation of the employers' behavior, while you are describing the market from the labor side. Of course, if you don't urgently need money to feed a family (or as GW Bush once said, "a man needs to put food on his family!"), then you are free not to accept the minimum wage offered and wait for something else to come along. Many executives found themselves in that position after the dot-com bubble burst, too.

Only interventions into the market like unionization to counter employers' monopoly power, or unemployment benefits, can shift the balance a bit in favor of workers.

[dk]

Thanks Steve. It's been a fun/interesting/educational discussion, and I agree with what both you and Doug are saying.

It would be great to hear the views from some of the owners of foreign-run successful local businesses on here. I'm wondering how the owners of Sam's, GI Bill Pay, some of the housing agencies, etc feel about employee treatment and benefits.

And I wonder how many feel that good employee treatment equates only to having a friendly, open atmosphere and occasionally throwing money at employees.

I get the feeling GIBP is doing an excellent job. Sam's, I can't really say, though I've always enjoyed their quality. I've heard bad things about a few of the housing agencies, however.

[dk]

Another thing that blew my mind is how few of my coworkers really even cared that they weren't receiving benefits, nor was it likely that we would ever receive benefits (and by benefits, I mean MEDICAL only). This goes with my views that as long as people are willing to take poor treatment and standards, that's what they'll receive.

At the end of the fiscal year, we were looking to throw money at some new equipment. I did some research into a BPO providing benefits and HR functionality to see if I could find a cost-effective solution for the company. Nobody was interested. Nobody cared. We were asked to put something on our wish-list that we would like to see the company purchase with excess funds. I wrote medical insurance. I don't think that wish-list was even read. It was just another one of those things management asks employees to create and then forgets all about it.

You get tired of trying to improve the atmosphere around you after a while. As a programmer, I'm tasked with automating the hell out of business functions so that employees have more time to do higher-value work. What is so different about finding ways for a company to provide higher-value employment to employees in a cost-effective manner? Both are aimed at organizational improvement and are measured by cost-effectiveness. Why the hell is automation such a huge deal and things like high-turnaround, knowledge retention, and quality of life hardly even an issue.

I had enough. By leaving, I made my statement. If the others are happy with their treatment, so be it. A lot of people seem happy to stay in a dead end job. In terms of employment, you get what you deserve. Or in a similar vein as someone on this forum's sig, "if you think that you can do it, you can." I may have quoted that incorrectly...

If you think you're worth a spot in a quality company, you are. If you think you are only worth a spot in a crappy dead-end job, you are.

Man, I didn't mean to rant. Feels good to get this out lol...

[SGT_OKINAWA]

I know, he is asking about off base jobs BUT, Jobs
off base are not going to pay my PCS expenses paid
to get TO Okinawa, so I can't comment on that...

However, I would like to say that the thread we are
in now relates to JOBS suffering from the lack of
quality employees In....THIS. (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2814) thread :rolleyes:

Peace!:army:

[dk]

I read an interesting quote in an article for a course I'm taking (and if anybody figures out who's quote this actually is, I'd love to know) that I think really might have something to do with this conversation. I think we've all hit on some real truths, but as has been said I'm coming from one angle where local business owners may come from another. The quote is:

Reality is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of ugly facts.

Yeah, its also in my sig now. A little redundant, but it's a saying that I'd like to memorize, so I sigged it for myself.

I think it would be inaccurate to completely discount anything any of us have said in this thread, and I think we are all coming from different realities in this subject matter.

[Tempestuous]

I read an interesting quote in an article for a course I'm taking (and if anybody figures out who's quote this actually is, I'd love to know) that I think really might have something to do with this conversation. I think we've all hit on some real truths, but as has been said I'm coming from one angle where local business owners may come from another. The quote is:

Reality is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of ugly facts.

Some say Robert Glass misquoted Huxley to put together your quote.

The great tragedy of science -- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."

-- Thomas Huxley

[dk]

It's possible. The article was by Robert Glass. Cool quote, regardless. I like the way he said it better. :o

[Tempestuous]

I agree!

So Huxley's quote made Glass think in different terms & he came up with his own saying, so I say we credit Glass with it! :)

[dk]

Sounds fair enough to me so long as the academia of the forum don't throw a hissyfit about it.

[Tempestuous]

Meh, can't please everyone. ;)

[japan-diver]

DK not getting defensive, just saying if you got the idea run with it. I have run a successful business on Okinawa for over 12 years now, it pays the bills nicely and employees a few people.
In Japan health care is not that big a deal for most employees as they already have the national health care- quite cheap. Full medical, dental coverage for myself and 3 kids is less than basic medical coverage for just me when I worked on base. If you work full time for a Japanese company it is very easy to get this insurance by the way.
For many small business owners they start with a plan and little money- I sure did. You then work your ass off to grow your company and afford the nice things you would like to do. There are many great companies to work for these days that pay benefits etc that could not afford to in the past when they started- many of the employees who stuck with these companies are now very well compensated for that- others as you suggest have used workers to grow the company and not rewarded them- not a company I would like to work for.

[dk]

Thank you JD, and I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post. I hope there's no hard feelings. This has been a very educational thread for me, and I'll admit, I'm a little jaded at the moment. I've just gone through bad job after bad job after bad job for about the past eight years or so. In fact, the only good job I think I've ever had (aside from lifeguarding as a teen...) is JU.

So, obviously, there is a bit of a pissyness in my posts.

I understand what you're saying, and for the most part, I can appreciate that. I'm just wondering if it is possible to start a business out here with the kind of capital required to provide decent compensation to begin with, rather than going the route a lot of businesses go out here. I mean--and don't get me wrong, I know we all get sick of hearing "in the states" over and over again--IF someone were to start a business up in the states and NOT provide a decent salary and NOT provide benefits, do you think they'd have much luck hiring? No. In fact, if language wasn't such a barrier, I bet most people wouldn't go to work for companies that offered little in return. I don't think everybody is up for that kind of adventure. I know I have been in the past, but now I'm just looking for quality. I'm looking for a quality company run by an intelligent boss. I'm looking to work for someone who'm I'd say, "Wow, I gotta give it to this guy. He's business savy."