ATTN: Anti-Military, Those who don't support the troops MUST Read!

[Tony Stacks]

I created this scenario for you to make you see another side.

You are an anti-military activist and you don't support the troops and you support protesters right to freedom of speech at MILITARY funerals.

And then your son joins the Marine Corps and not only that he is sent off to Iraq. You don't hear from him again. Then 2 Marines in Dress Blues ring your door bell and before they even open their mouth you know why they are there. To deliver the news that your son just dies in the line of duty.

Now here are some questions:

Will you still not support the troops?
I think you will finally understand what some of us mean when we say we SUPPORT the troops but NOT the war.

Will you still support some punk mother ****ers right to protest at YOUR kid funeral?
Hell no you won't. You will want to beat every one of their asses.


In closing I will throw this out there. The guys on the ground, in the air, and on the sea fighting in this war could be us or have been us, could be our borthers, sisters, friends, familiy and are for some of us.
This is why I support the troops 110% whether I support the war or not.

I support the troops and ALWAYS will and I DON'T support the war!:army:

[badkitty]

Wow. This is thought provoking...

[okisteve]

Well, not really thought-provoking.

It's similar to MADD,　isn't it? Mothers who lost kids in DUII car accidents raised public consciousness. Would it have happened if their kids had not gotten killed?

[vvloc]

The VAST majority of protesters at military funerals are from a radical anti-gay Baptist Church from Topeka Kansas:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/05/military_funera.html

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

"Thepiratebay" torrent documentary:

http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3652957/The_Most_Hated_Family_in_America_-_The_Phelps_-_Godhatesfags_Xvi

[proudtobnotpc]

Good thread Tony. :thumbup1: For those of you who do not want to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them:army:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Tony, do protesters at military funerals stand amongst the mourners where the coffin is being lowered into the ground at? or do they place themselves at the gates of the cemeteries?

Get back to me when you get that information.

[okisteve]

Good thread Tony. :thumbup1: For those of you who do not want to stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them:army:


More original thinking, everyone!

[Bones]

The Protesters are almost as bad as the "Paparazzi". They block the entrances to the cemetery, and show no respect for the souls who have perished, nor to their families.

I sometimes feel that they are jealous of the fact that when they die, they will not be afforded the same ceremony, as compared to our fellow men and, women, who have worn the uniform. They live empty lives, so why should they get the same perks?

While I feel that "Protesters" have a right to do so, they should vent their frustrations elsewhere.

The people who are being buried, gave their life for something that they believed in.

For protesters, the main theme seems to be : " The money that we spend on the war, could be better spent on things that look cool in my home."

Totally, LAME!!!!

Bones

[proudtobnotpc]

I am not allowed to do the "Original Thinking" thing, I am married

[GODH8SU]

Tony, do protesters at military funerals stand amongst the mourners where the coffin is being lowered into the ground at? or do they place themselves at the gates of the cemeteries?

Get back to me when you get that information.

They block the gates and cause a disturbance during the burial. I had a friend that was a member of the Patriot Guard; to prevent these idiots from protesting during military funerals. They were at my grandfathers funeral in November and believe me, these people are great.

http://www.patriotguard.org/

[Black Orchid]

same here support them hate the war.. want them to come home ASAP

[ArizonaGirl]

Tony, do protesters at military funerals stand amongst the mourners where the coffin is being lowered into the ground at? or do they place themselves at the gates of the cemeteries?

Get back to me when you get that information.

Have you not read any of the news stories? They are BLATANTLY shoving their sick twisted beliefs in the face of the mourners. Examples:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/story?id=1728788&page=1

They've appeared at military funerals across the country, armed with signs reading "God Hates You" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers."

Members of Westboro Baptist Church protest at a military funeral.
(ABCNEWS)Members of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., have outraged family members and communities alike with their antics. They say America's war casualties are God's wrath for tolerating homosexuality.


And another: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/06/btsc.lavandrera.funerals/

DODGE CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- This past Saturday morning I found myself in a five-car caravan cutting across the Kansas plains with about 30 religious protesters. In the back of a truck, there were signs that read "Thank God for IED's" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers."

I was with the Phelps family. They've launched a disturbing campaign to tarnish the funerals of fallen soldiers.

[TheNoNamedOne]

They block the gates and cause a disturbance during the burial.


Ok, could you show us some link from a reputable source that says they block the gate. And like "block" how? In what way? Links please.

And were the burial plots within sight of the gates? A lot of city cemeteries are huge and one can be at many locations within them and not even see the gates, and be far from perhaps even hearing their voices.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Have you not read any of the news stories? They are BLATANTLY shoving their sick twisted beliefs in the face of the mourners. Examples:

I've already edited your post, but please take it upon yourself to not post copyrighted material in full. Please post those parts you would like to highlight for discussion. Members can follow the link to get the full details of the story. Also, when posting words not your own, please use the quote or indent feature to offset them. Thank you. -- TP

[ArizonaGirl]

I've already edited your post, but please take it upon yourself to not post copyrighted material in full. Please post those parts you would like to highlight for discussion. Members can follow the link to get the full details of the story. Also, when posting words not your own, please use the quote or indent feature to offset them. Thank you. -- TP

Sorry. I guess I need to go back and review the TOS. I didn't realize. Thanks.

[GODH8SU]

Ok, could you show us some link from a reputable source that says they block the gate. And like "block" how? In what way? Links please.

And were the burial plots within sight of the gates? A lot of city cemeteries are huge and one can be at many locations within them and not even see the gates, and be far from perhaps even hearing their voices.

My source is my personal expierence. I've been there. They stand in front of the gates to the cemetary with their bodys holding their protest signs cursing the families. The Patriot Guard escorts the procession forcing these jackasses out of the way. Then they form a perimeter to keep these assholes at a distance from the burial. They will attempt to go right up to the burail sight sometimes.

[TheNoNamedOne]

My source is my personal expierence.

Oh, then I guess that settles it. You said so. :rolleyes:

[DougP]

Father Awarded $10.9M In Funeral Protest Case
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KruHbQa4SZo
What goes on in the mind of someone like that you ask?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Q3Y6KTxGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCRSIL4wY3U
A Day in the Life of the Westboro Baptist Church Protesting!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNC0OJX2iAc

[GODH8SU]

Oh, then I guess that settles it. You said so. :rolleyes:

Well unlike you, I can speak on military matters from expierence.

[Sex Wax]

Ok, could you show us some link from a reputable source that says they block the gate. And like "block" how? In what way? Links please.

And were the burial plots within sight of the gates? A lot of city cemeteries are huge and one can be at many locations within them and not even see the gates, and be far from perhaps even hearing their voices.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/04/17/us/17protest.xlarge1.jpg

NASHVILLE, April 11 — As dozens of mourners streamed solemnly into church to bury Cpl. David A. Bass, a fresh-faced 20-year-old marine who was killed in Iraq on April 2, a small clutch of protesters stood across the street on Tuesday, celebrating his violent death.
"Thank God for Dead Soldiers," read one of their placards. "Thank God for I.E.D.'s," read another, a reference to the bombs used to kill service members in the war. To drive home their point — that God is killing soldiers to punish America for condoning homosexuality — members of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., a tiny fundamentalist splinter group, kicked around an American flag and shouted, if someone approached, that the dead soldiers were rotting in hell.

In the past few months, nine states, including Oklahoma, Wisconsin and Indiana, have approved laws that restrict demonstrations at a funeral or burial. In addition, 23 state legislatures are getting ready to vote on similar bills, and Congress, which has received thousands of e-mail messages on the issue, expects to take up legislation in May dealing with demonstrations at federal cemeteries.
-From the NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/17/us/17picket.html

While it does dnot say they were blocking the gates, it was still a disturbance for the funeral.

[Brand_X]

I believe they will hate the military even more. I do not believe they will have a military funeral if they dislike the military to begin with and may even get support from the protesters if they know the parents dislike it. I dont know what this thread is trying to ask. How many people will change and like something if its the cause of their childs death.

I personally know someone who loved the military but after their husbands death in Iraq hates them immensely. You wont see it going the other way very often if ever.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Great vids, Doug.

Ok, I didn't see any gates blocked. I didn't see any church members trying to force their way into the church. I did see they were standing calmly on the side of the road holding their signs, and then across from the church yelling.

Would I do that? No. But then I don't get the whole religion or anti-"fag" thing either.

Doug asked, "What are these people thinking (paraphrased)?"

Well, they are thinking according to their religion. Shouldn't we respect their religious beliefs?

What I saw was the system working; Protestors, those protested against, others showing up to counter the protestors, and court cases.

All nonviolent. The law seems to be handling it quite well, along with protestors doing what they are legaly permitted to do until a law is changed to alter those actions.

[DougP]

Actually what I meant was 'So.. what are these people thinking? you may ask'* It was more of a rhetorical question setting the stage for the video. More or less, the answer to what's on their mind was in that one video...
Hope that clears things up.:)

[ArizonaGirl]

Great vids, Doug.

Ok, I didn't see any gates blocked. I didn't see any church members trying to force their way into the church. I did see they were standing calmly on the side of the road holding their signs, and then across from the church yelling.

Would I do that? No. But then I don't get the whole religion or anti-"fag" thing either.

Doug asked, "What are these people thinking (paraphrased)?"

Well, they are thinking according to their religion. Shouldn't we respect their religious beliefs?

What I saw was the system working; Protestors, those protested against, others showing up to counter the protestors, and court cases.

All nonviolent. The law seems to be handling it quite well, along with protestors doing what they are legaly permitted to do until a law is changed to alter those actions.

What about the respect for the dead? And the dead's family? So they weren't blocking the gates. So they weren't forcing their way into the church. BUT they were holding highly visible signs and standing across from the church yelling. This disrupts the service. You ask "shouldn't we respect their religious beliefs?"

Shouldn't they respect ours?????? Maybe they think they have the right message (which I disagree strongly against) but aren't they infringing on the mourners religious beliefs? Couldn't they find a better forum to express their beliefs? Have respect for the dead and the dead's family and friends, will ya???

[okisteve]

Those people are sickos and I don't think they represent the beliefs of even the most hardened anti-war groups. At least I hope not. They have their own agenda and sure picked a rotten way to publicize it.

[Tanimaga]

They are definitely playing a risky game. Taunting a mourning family and friends is beyond low.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Actually what I meant was 'So.. what are these people thinking? you may ask'* It was more of a rhetorical question setting the stage for the video. More or less, the answer to what's on their mind was in that one video...
Hope that clears things up.:)

After viewing the video there was no need to clear it up.

While the question is rhetorical, asked as if there were some mystery about it, it is also a pointed one that deserves a rhetorical reply.

[DougP]

After viewing the video there was no need to clear it up.

While the question is rhetorical, asked as if there were some mystery about it, it is also a pointed one that deserves a rhetorical reply.

I'll put a nice soft felt tip cover on those questions next time.:D Pointy objects and yes even questions can be a bit dangerous to run with.:)

[okisteve]

Hmmm... I noticed that one of their main messages to the bereaved is "God Hates You". Now isn't that something????

[TheNoNamedOne]

What about the respect for the dead? And the dead's family? So they weren't blocking the gates. So they weren't forcing their way into the church. BUT they were holding highly visible signs and standing across from the church yelling. This disrupts the service.

Well, like I said, the system seems to be working it out. What more do you want before that happens? Violence directed towards them?


You ask "shouldn't we respect their religious beliefs?"

Shouldn't they respect ours?????? Maybe they think they have the right message (which I disagree strongly against) but aren't they infringing on the mourners religious beliefs? Couldn't they find a better forum to express their beliefs? Have respect for the dead and the dead's family and friends, will ya???

You know, I really do love your reasoning here. In fact, I use this same construct, too, in a different argument. It can be applied directly to smoking in public:

"Respect your right to smoke and damage your lungs? What about respecting my right to not even have to smell one iota of a waft of it -- meaning the only place you* could smoke is in your home, and only if it is air tight so none of it wafts out so I can't smell it. If your home is not so air tight, couldn't you find a better home that is to let you smoke so I don't have to be bothered by your foul air that you spew. Have respect for others' lungs and breathing."

But how many smokers are going to accept the same reasoning about respect when one right knocks into the other? I'm not turning this discussion into a smoking discussion, just wanting to point out the reasoning here that is ignored by a good many of people when it comes to respecting one right over another.

*When I say you above, I don't mean "you" per se`.

[P_chan]

Oh, then I guess that settles it. You said so. :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter if they're blocking the gates or not. What matters if they have no respect for the dead. They should respect the dead and their families. They're doing it in bad taste and for publicity.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Doesn't matter if they're blocking the gates or not. What matters if they have no respect for the dead. They should respect the dead and their families. They're doing it in bad taste and for publicity.

Sure it does. Blocking the gates to prevent right of passage would be against the law. Being disrespectful and showing bad taste is not against the law. Until laws are created by legislatures, or precedences from court decisions to stem what they are doing in all places, then in those places it matters an awful lot to the police and judges.

There is no law stating one must respect the dead. There are laws stipulating on distances to, and times allowable, for protests. But those distasteful and disrespectful protests are still permitted.

[P_chan]

Sure it does. Blocking the gates to prevent right of passage would be against the law. Being disrespectful and showing bad taste is not against the law. Until laws are created by legislatures, or precedences from court decisions to stem what they are doing in all places, then in those places it matters an awful lot to the police and judges.

There is no law stating one must respect the dead. There are laws stipulating on distances to, and times allowable, for protests. But those distasteful and disrespectful protests are still permitted.

Well then lets say this. What if I were to show up at one of your family members funerals and start yelling and scream all why running around naked calling you a fag?

Or what about that thread a while back about people defiling okinawan tombs? What would someone think if I were to go into these tombs and steal urns?

[TheNoNamedOne]

They would think it is bad.

Point?

[Tony Stacks]

Tony, do protesters at military funerals stand amongst the mourners where the coffin is being lowered into the ground at? or do they place themselves at the gates of the cemeteries?

Get back to me when you get that information.


Does it matter? Let's get back to the OP.

How would you feel if it was your kids funeral they were doing that at?
And if you say you would still support it than you are full of shit. There is no way.

[P_chan]

My point is that there are some things that you just don't do. Protesting at someone's funeral (regardless what they're protesting for) is just plain disrespectful.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Does it matter? Let's get back to the OP.

How would you feel if it was your kids funeral they were doing that at?
And if you say you would still support it than you are full of shit. There is no way.

I wouldn't like it. But supporting the troops emotionaly is different than supporting the war effort through physical means.

That I wouldn't like it, would not make me support the war, or to do so by supporting the troops any other way than just emotionaly. In my oxymoron thread, in the OP I stated that emotional support for the troops is quite compatible with not supporting the war, so long as physical materials are not agreed to be given to the war effort.

[Tony Stacks]

I wouldn't like it. But supporting the troops emotionaly is different than supporting the war effort through physical means.

That I wouldn't like it, would not make me support the war, or to do so by supporting the troops any other way than just emotionaly. In my oxymoron thread, in the OP I stated that emotional support for the troops is quite compatible with not supporting the war, so long as physical materials are not agreed to be given to the war effort.


So you would be okay with your kid being sent to war with crappy gear and no funding?
That's BS

I don't support the war either but holy shit I'm not gonna want them to be ****** over cuz of stupid ass politicians mistakes.

[TheNoNamedOne]

My point is that there are some things that you just don't do. Protesting at someone's funeral (regardless what they're protesting for) is just plain disrespectful.

And I am saying that in the eyes of the law and freedoms of speech, just something being disrespectful does not automatically make it not permissible. If it is not regulated against, then surely it can be done, because we live in a permissive society, where we regulate what we are against -- not a restrictive society where we say you have have to have permission to do something, and until then all other things are against the law or not permitted.

And this is what this case is showing us. These people are showing us that our system works.

[TheNoNamedOne]

So you would be okay with your kid being sent to war with crappy gear and no funding?
That's BS

I don't support the war either but holy shit I'm not gonna want them to be ****** over cuz of stupid ass politicians mistakes.

I am ok with my adult child making decisions for himself and taking responsibility for that.

[P_chan]

Of course it shows that the system works, I never said that they didn't have the right to protest outside of a funeral. However, common sense and good manners dictate that there are just some things you don't do.

[Tony Stacks]

I am ok with my adult child making decisions for himself and taking responsibility for that.


what the hell does this mean? I'm not trying to be an ass but explain this to me pls?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Of course it shows that the system works, I never said that they didn't have the right to protest outside of a funeral. However, common sense and good manners dictate that there are just some things you don't do.

Obvious man does not live on common sense alone. Not very much common sense to poison your body by inhaling carcinogens into your lungs, but many still do so.

As for manners, many are willing to put their manners down when a stronger issue than manners appeals to them. For example, it is ill manners to call someone a name in a derogatory way, but if the thought of feeling good from insulting someone is seen as more valuable and rewarding at the time, they will drop the manners about name-calling and let one rip.

You've done that, and so have others. That is just an example on a smaller scale to illustrate to you. Now, blow that up larger when passions are 100x larger.

Things are just not so neat and clean on common sense and manners. They mean different things to different people, most often dependent upon environment and upbringing. Not inherent.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I created this scenario for you to make you see another side.

You are an anti-military activist and you don't support the troops and you support protesters right to freedom of speech at MILITARY funerals. ....


Seems here an incomplete characterization of what's really goin' on.

On one hand you've got a microscopic minority of lunatics from some backwater hillbilly church in bumf%ck Appalachia pestering those mourning fallen heroes. (This represents a very loosely organized fringe subculture protesting the military - a totally misplaced criticism.)

On the other hand you've got a much wider, more organized mainstream movement that is protesting the war - which is a major thumbs down vote for Bush and cronies. These folks, such as Cindy Sheehan, are not against the troops, but the shithead politicians that created this mess in Iraq.

I'd be more careful in bringing these two movements together.

[P_chan]

Obvious man does not live on common sense alone.

Maybe I should post a "master of the obvious" for this one?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Then whose common sense and manners were you referring to? Yours?

This is not an issue of common sense or manners to keep them from doing what they are -- but simply government stepping in to add more regulations and restrictions to society on the issues of free speech. In other words, it is the mob of democracy that holds the most widely held perception based on their majority power that is going to codify against the minority.

Your common sense or the common sense of the majority of the nation is different from their little sect or world they live in in which they view common sense. When passions like this collide, it will be the legal sense mixed in with the sense of the judge or jury or legislatures that decide -- another subculture of the public that also does not always go with the common view of the public in their decisions.

[gunny8511]

I don't give a crap if you approve of the reasons for attacking terrorists, but don't piss on my back for doing it. I didn't make the decision to do so; dudes in suits did. Give THEM grief, not me.

In the meantime, don't lose sight of the fact that war never solved anything...except nazism, facism, ah heck...you know the drill...you paid attention in history class, right? :cool:

[Tony Stacks]

Well, not really thought-provoking.

It's similar to MADD,　isn't it? Mothers who lost kids in DUII car accidents raised public consciousness. Would it have happened if their kids had not gotten killed?

Does it matter? Sometimes when something hits home it makes you finally take a stand.

[icejingles]

hooray! I approve.