View Full Version : The "N" word in black and white society
TheNoNamedOne
07-21-2007, 02:52 PM
It was Bill Cosby who began the national debate on the "N" word in the U.S. several years ago, and rightly so. Since then, though, there has been no sign of the debate as having been settled. It still pops up in commentaries and talk shows quite regularly.
Do you think that the "N" word is a word that should be targeted as a social taboo by all, or that it is degrading? Do you think there is a difference between "Nigger" and "Nigga" as some hip hop poets try to distinguish between them?
My opinion is that it is degrading and causes friction not only between black and white society, but also between black society itself. I think it should be targeted as much as possible to make it unacceptable in popular culture or even the more splintered sub cultures where it is even more entrenched.
I think it all depends on the intent of use.
For instance, if a friend of mine called me a cracker in a joking manner, it wouldn't bother me at all. But if someone who genuinely hated white people used it in a way to belittle me, it'd be offensive.
If we're going to remove the N word from popular culture, we ought to remove every offensive word starting with the other slang racist terms. Once those are gone, we should take out all synonyms of "mentally challenged", colorful slang of body parts and sexual actions, and I'm sure we'll think of other categories to remove in the future after these are all taken out. Yes, that is sarcasm.
I think racist behavior is what needs to be targetted. I don't think we'll ever win that battle, but it is one that needs to constantly be fought. Take out racism and the problem is solved. The N word (as well as the C word, S word, J word, etc) all stem from racism.
In summary, I belive it's all about intent and that racism should be more of a target than a simple word.
TheNoNamedOne
07-21-2007, 03:46 PM
I think that is a fair reply about "intent", but I think it is a lofty goal, or even thought, that one may think they could gauge that accurately.
Why should intent from the user be the judge rather than perception from the one hearing it or feels it is directed at them? Does one have more credible legs to stand on, more so than the other?
How would you view it if I, or someone, logged on here and announced our arrival everytime, or in every thread with "Hey Niggas!" in a joking way? Or ended when signing out, "Peace out, Niggas!" I would bet that after 3 or 4 times, if that many, that would become annoying, and you would not want to see it continue, knowing that it would be perceived as insulting by a certain number of potential members who it could put off from joining and adding to the community by offering opinions and knowledge from a varried group base.
But would you move to bar them from joining or ask them to stop engaging in such behaviour even after they have made it clear to you that their intent is light and joking?
I think that is a fair reply about "intent", but I think it is a lofty goal, or even thought, that one may think they could gauge that accurately.
Why should intent from the user be the judge rather than perception from the one hearing it or feels it is directed at them? Does one have more credible legs to stand on, more so than the other?
Fair enough. Perception of intent should be the judge. A hybrid of sorts. We're basically saying the same thing. You're just saying that it should be up to the receiver to judge the intent of something. Correct? And that's basically what I was getting at here:For instance, if a friend of mine called me a cracker in a joking manner, it wouldn't bother me at all. But if someone who genuinely hated white people used it in a way to belittle me, it'd be offensive.
How would you view it if I, or someone, logged on here and announced our arrival everytime, or in every thread with "Hey Niggas!" in a joking way? Or ended when signing out, "Peace out, Niggas!" I would bet that after 3 or 4 times, if that many, that would become annoying, and you would not want to see it continue, knowing that it would be perceived as insulting by a certain number of potential members who it could put off from joining and adding to the community by offering opinions and knowledge from a varried group base.
I would find it annoying, and I'm sure others would as well. I think it'd be just as annoying if I announced my arrival with "Sup Retards". Even if I were using it as a term of endearment, it's just one of those things that'd get old after a while.
But would you move to bar them from joining or ask them to stop engaging in such behaviour even after they have made it clear to you that their intent is light and joking?
I'd leave it up to the users to put him through hell and change his behavior. And if people genuinely started becoming offended, I would think about handing out infractions to the fella, although I doubt I'd even give him infractions. He's not breaking any rules, and in my book, intent is everything. Now if he starts harming the community (people start leaving) and he continues to post Nigga even after he's warned that he's hurting the community, I would ban him. Because then, his intent IS to cause harm.
Everybody has habits that are potentially annoying (and possibly potentially offensive) to other people. I'm not going to outlaw them unless the intent is to cause harm.
TheNoNamedOne
07-21-2007, 04:31 PM
Ok, dk, I see what you are saying.
You talked about you and your friend exchanging greetings with "Cracker" or "Nigga" amongst the two of you as acceptable, and perhaps I don't have much issue with that, because your relationship and boundaries between yous have already been established through time.
The problem, and important problem it is, and I think where we may diverge (or perhaps you will agree with me) is that when 3rd parties or strangers are thrown into the mix. In there perception has to easily outweigh intent.
Let's say you decide to go to a hip hop club in Chicago, and you do so alone and it is your first time. You would not be allowed, without some considerable risk to your body, to address a black person there as, "Hey nigga, can I bum a smoke?" eventhough that may be the vernacular amongst blacks in that club amongst themselves.
And as for 3rd parties, you could catch grief from blacks standing around in earshot just for calling your friend nigga depending on the socioeconomic position of those blacks. If they are not of the hip hop culture, lets say a group of black conservative republicans, and you called your friend "nigga" around them, they may take you to task. And even hip hop culture who would not know you hearing you refer to your friend as nigga may pounce on you without giving you or your friend the time to establish the context of you using it.
Again, outside of one and one relationships and for the most part out of earshot, perception rules strongly over intent.
Well then, I guess we should allow social taboos to play their part. I don't think it'd be wise to try and change the hip-hop culture just because it offends us. It's like our forum rule that basically states that if something is so offensive to you that you cannot have a polite discussion regarding the topic at hand, stay out of it. If you can't hang within earshot of a different subculture without getting angry, avoid them.
In some social circles, one person calling another a "nigga" is acceptable. In other social circles it isn't. It's best to know which circle you're currently standing in and to act accordingly.
I personally get pissed off whenever someone refers to me as a gaijin. I know it's short for gaikokujin (foreigner), but my f*#%^! name isn't "foreigner". I'm not going to tell Japanese people to not refer to me as gaijin-san though.
Mad Hatter
07-22-2007, 11:22 PM
hahaha... I just had to jump into this. I know that this might seem a bit wierd, but I agree with the "circle" idea that DK brought up. I actually prefer that Nigger and Nigga be used.
It let's me know who I'm hanging around with, in more ways than one.
The thing that gets me is that it's cool for black people to say it, but the second that I white person says it... they damn near die.
Boost
07-23-2007, 08:41 AM
My personal thoughts on the subject is that the "N-word," or any derivative of it, has no place in todays society irregardless of who is using it. It's roots are bedded in racism and dropping the term from our vocabulary will be another step forward in civilization and away from racism. I also think that the use of the word "nigga" by the black community only keeps them tied to a shameful past of slavery and racism that needs to have those ties cut and left in the past. Not to forget and pretend like it never happened, but to move forward into a future where racism isn't a focal point in our community.
DoctorP
07-23-2007, 08:14 PM
I think this is a horse that has been beaten to death already.
If the two people speaking to one another have no problem with it's use, then it should be fine. Now, when it is recorded and played over the airwaves then it could be offensive to some who hear it. Words themselves are not racist. The racist flag is played out by the listener/receiver. Now, if you were not intended to be the receiver is that word still considered racist? I think that is a good question!
Going along with this discussion, the NAACP recently held a burial for the "N" word...I think that is an assinine way of saying it...just say the damn word people! Nigger, Nigger, Nigger, Nigger, Niga, Niga, Niga....what is so damn bad about it? Anyway, they just held a burial for this "word" a few weeks ago in Detroit. What a waste of time. N Word Put to Rest (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070709/NEWS06/70709024)
Some people accuse the rap industry of prostituting this word, but I see the NAACP as doing the same damn thing!
So, if someone uses the word again, does that make the word a zombie? You can't bury something that's not dead... Well, you shouldn't at least.
And can people still say fo shizzle ma nizzle?
DoctorP
07-23-2007, 08:24 PM
Stupid isn't it? A bunch of educated blacks saying we'll just bury this word and our problems will be over!
IT'S A WORD PEOPLE...CHILL!
I still don't think it's a polite word for a white person to utter outloud. In popular society, it IS taboo, just as it is to toss around the F word every other sentance.
But if those small social circles really want to hold onto the word, more power to them. Whatever floats their boats.
I do think there is a difference in levels of offensiveness between the N word, Nigga, Nizzle, and every other deviation of the term Snoop invents in the next few decades. You won't hear him uttering the first, and I don't recall every hearing anyone in hip hop using any but the later two.
I do find it strange that the other racist terms have really ever had deviations made to them to "fit" them into pop society. Is this pretty much limited to N? Or have I just not been picking up on the latest trends?
DoctorP
07-23-2007, 08:31 PM
I don't care what they use...generally I don't care what people say, as long as they are capable of being respectful in front of me and my family. I won't hesitate to correct anyone that uses disrespectful language in front of my family.
I don't care what they use...generally I don't care what people say, as long as they are capable of being respectful in front of me and my family. I won't hesitate to correct anyone that uses disrespectful language in front of my family.
Exactly. Know who you're with and act accordingly.
My language set at work is vastly different than how I speak when I'm meeting somebody for the first time.
DoctorP
07-23-2007, 08:36 PM
Exactly. Know who you're with and act accordingly.
My language set at work is vastly different than how I speak when I'm meeting somebody for the first time.
Yeah I know...You speak like a sailor when you are around me now! You never used to be that way! :rolleyes:
Yeah I know...You speak like a sailor when you are around me now! You never used to be that way! :rolleyes:
I can't help myself!
That's how you'll know I'm comfortable hanging out with you. lol.
Boost
07-24-2007, 12:39 AM
Sure Doc. P, it's all fun and games until someone getS offended and someone gets beat up. :)
Tempestuous
07-24-2007, 05:29 AM
And can people still say fo shizzle ma nizzle?
Not without the general population around them thinkin they are a dork :D....I mean for reals dwag, who imitates the word usage of rap starz & celebrities, bra?
*twitching*
Ugh, talk about sounding ignorant!!! Why do people talk like that? I don't get the connection of how that sounds "cool"
Asshat
07-24-2007, 07:47 AM
My personal thoughts on the subject is that the "N-word," or any derivative of it, has no place in todays society irregardless of who is using it. It's roots are bedded in racism and dropping the term from our vocabulary will be another step forward in civilization and away from racism. I also think that the use of the word "nigga" by the black community only keeps them tied to a shameful past of slavery and racism that needs to have those ties cut and left in the past. Not to forget and pretend like it never happened, but to move forward into a future where racism isn't a focal point in our community.
I agree with you 100% Boost.
While in some circles the term is not offensive, it has become the flagship of a general trend towards developing respect of fellow human beings within one ethnic group- with the goal of fostering respect on a larger scale.
Nothing is "fair" and it doesn't bother me that two Blacks can use the term amoung each other, and I can not. It just needs to go away period for the reasons Boost stated.
Not without the general population around them thinkin they are a dork :D....I mean for reals dwag, who imitates the word usage of rap starz & celebrities, bra?
Lol you just mixed rap and surf lingo.
Guys, Temp just called me a bra...:D
Tempestuous
07-24-2007, 11:21 AM
Lol you just mixed rap and surf lingo.
Guys, Temp just called me a bra...:D
Obviously neither of those are my forte. *laugh*
That particular pronunciation of the word Bro, drives me NUTS!!!
One better than callin you bra, I accidentally referred to the 10 yr old @ the time as boob in front of his friend. ooops!
TheNoNamedOne
05-10-2008, 05:25 PM
TLD didn't like me using the word "nigger" as a way to examine something. While I think it is wrong to use it in referring to others in daily conversation; to use it to discuss the word itself, or reasoning about something, I see no problem with it.
In fact, a recent poem by a girl (http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/livewire/archived/poetry_power/) used it quite openly to make her statement about it:
Maya’s signature piece “Nigger,” speaks about how the word “nigger” is used carelessly among black people. “You say that ‘nigger’ is a good word,” she says. Then what’s the problem if a person of a different race uses it, she reasons. Through the words of a former slave, Nairobi, who looks down from heaven on black people today, Maya says:
The next time you say Nigger, remember these quotes:
Nigger clean my house,
Nigger iron my clothes,
Nigger get my kids ready, it’s time to go,
Nigger water those plants,
Nigger do dat dance call handbone,
Nigger what you mean when you gon learn,
Yous a nigger fool,
Niggers dont go to school,
…
Equality and freedom wasnt made for you.
Nigger Yall never be free!
Heaven calls Nairobi back, but before she leaves she says:
I’m coming lord I’m coming
But before I go
I gotta ask
Which Nigger are you?
Charles Jones from the Bronx was “blown away” by his first meeting with Urban Word at Hostos. “It takes a lot of guts to go up there,” he says. When it was his turn to hit the stage with his poem “Why I Rap,” his heart “skipped a beat twice.”
So, is it "How dare she use such a word!"?
TLD didn't like me using the word "nigger" as a way to examine something.
So it's The Last Don's fault that you dragged up this old thread from the dead? :thumbdown: :rolleyes:
It's no wonder why you started the thread about Violence after meeting people from the internet in person (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5870) :rolleyes:
Just because someone chooses to use the word doesnt make it right, and that goes for you as well.
TheNoNamedOne
05-10-2008, 06:00 PM
People's comments often lend themselves to new angles on a topic. I thank Don for that.
Jimmy Hoffa
05-10-2008, 06:12 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again,
Nigger and Nigga are 2 totally different words with 2 totally different meanings. Now you might not hear Eminem or Paul Wall say it on a CD because of the racial hypocracy in America but I guarentee when they are out of the spotlight with the friends they grew up with they use it all the time and rightly so.
Plus I'll throw this out there I have heard about in schools Black kids would call other kids a deragatory racial slur 1st and the kid would call them the N word back and that kid gets suspeneded and nothing was done to the Black kids.
I will close this with racism anywhere from all sides is wrong and should not exist. I wish people could see beyond race and religion and just be who they are.
TheNoNamedOne
05-11-2008, 01:51 PM
Stupid isn't it? A bunch of educated blacks saying we'll just bury this word and our problems will be over!
IT'S A WORD PEOPLE...CHILL!
What is funny about the burying event of the word "nigger" you are e referring to, DocP (btw whose post is from last year), that the person who buried it unburied it just a few months ago in March. Well, kinda. lol.
N**gger Controversy (http://www.bet.com/News/NewsArticlePoliticsKwameKilpatrickNiggerControvers y.htm)
Posted March 14, 2008 – Embattled Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick is being rocked by critics for mentioning in a live television broadcast that he has been called “a nigger” by his foes. ...
"In the past 30 days, I've been called a nigger more than anytime in my entire life," said Kilpatrick. "In the past three days, I've received more death threats than I have in my entire administration." But such comments are unacceptable, says state Attorney General Mike Cox, calling the mayor a “race-baiter” and reminding that Kilpatrick, in a very public display with several other Black leaders last summer, buried the “N”-word. ...
"It most especially was not a place to use the same word that, supposedly, we buried last summer," the Rev. Edgar Vann, pastor of Second Ebenezer Baptist Church in Detroit, told The Associated Press. "You can make references to it without using it." But not everyone agreed. ...
Added NAACP national spokesman Richard J. McIntire, "He was trying to make a point. He wasn't using it in the typical vernacular."
And I agree with the mayor and NAACP spokesman, that to use the word is fine if it is to examamine something or reference its use. The mayor was not affixing it to others as a slur to attack and hurt.
Even BET decided to use it in referencing it in their article. They didn't change it to the "'N' word" for their reporting about it. They did, however ** the title of the article. A tad inconsistent there.
Isaak Brodsky
05-11-2008, 06:05 PM
Gloria Naylor addressed this question most brilliantly in her essay
"Mommy, What Does Nigger Mean?|
http://www.sebsteph.com/Professional/Bart's%20class/Readings/naylor.htm
okisteve
05-11-2008, 07:51 PM
Thanks Ian. She told that story and made the point perfectly. There was a similar thread here a few months ago that we both participated in, and many people were thrashing around trying to get to that exact point. What the "N word" means is very relative to who is using it, how, and why.
Bones
05-11-2008, 08:34 PM
Does it seem funny to you that racial terms can be used in friendship?
Or how they can be turned around, by either races, when it creates a problem and, someone needs to be fired?
Just curious.
Bones
CaptainMcLusty
05-12-2008, 12:09 PM
are you asking for permission to be racist and use a term that offends black people..?
why would you want to do that?
I don't think anyone is looking for approval to use the phrase... I think the point is that, like you just said, its an offensive term, however, alot of African-Americans(PC) use the term almost as a term of endearment.
I may be off base by a mile here and dead wrong however I sometimes get the feeling that some black people use the word "nigger" almost with a sense of pride, that it is something that is restricted to their own use and somehow puts them apart from others.
I can not think of any other word that comes to mind that is more offensive in the English language.
TheNoNamedOne
05-12-2008, 02:52 PM
but who is it offending if they use it amongst themselves...
Well, other blacks may be offended. I think that was one of the reason they had that symbolic burial of the word last year, wasn't it? I don't think whites were the ones who organized that, were they?
i dont understand why any other race would be offended by blacks using it as a term of endearment amongst other blacks..
Some may be offended by the double standards. And what about 3rd parties to a discussion? If a white person came into a restaurant where his "boiz" were chillin and screamed from the entrance, "Hey Niggaz!",the other diners, maybe a mix of whites and blacks, would not understand the context of his friendship right off the bat and cringe at the word from him. But yet, many in the black community do let whites, once the context of their relationship is understood, use the word.
Personally, I don't like it used in the vernacular either as an insult or term of endearment because it allows for too many contextual changes that third parties may not be privy to.
I do think it is ok to use to reference a point or to examine something -- like the spokesperson from the NAACP commented on above.
i am black and white equal parts so i honestly see things from both persepctives..
So, perhaps only "halfs" should be given a free pass in all things considering its uses? But some "halfs" look fully black, and some can pass as white. More trouble there.
Trail
05-12-2008, 03:22 PM
I vote for "brotha from anotha motha" and "sista from a different mista" as acceptable
bigmonsta thanks for your post, it was very informative and insightful for me and hopefully for others here as well!:thumbup:
Isaak Brodsky
05-12-2008, 04:32 PM
... why would a white person argue that its not acceptable for him to use the word when it is acceptable for blacks to use it amongst blacks?? ...
your points are really good. i'd encourage you to check out the naylor essay when you have a chance - for another interesting perspective.
your points are really good. i'd encourage you to check out the naylor essay when you have a chance - for another interesting perspective.
Ian I did a quick google for the Naylor essay and for clarifications sake are you refering to the one by Gloria Naylor?
Do you know of anywhere online to view it?
Isaak Brodsky
05-12-2008, 04:49 PM
You're right. It's Gloria Naylor. I posted a link to it just a bit earlier in this thread. Cheers.
Trail
05-12-2008, 04:50 PM
why would a white person argue that its not acceptable for him to use the word when it is acceptable for blacks to use it amongst blacks??
that argument makes no sense to me..
For me, as posted earlier in a different thread:
It is agreed that words are all in the application in which they are used. As stated, I am not comfortable using the word "nigger" on any sort of frequency. That is just me. Words can be twisted so easily, as proven on this very forum, that I avoid that situation entirely. I have family and friends that would be disappointed and hurt if they were to catch wind of me using the word "nigger" in any type of frequency and lax demeanor other than to defend the fact that is now predominantly a negative word and is used predominantly in a negative aspect.
I am white and my above reasons for other whites not using the word are above but ultimately, it's individual that has to answer for the way they use it. "Your head, not mine"-type deal. I have black and multi-racial family/friends and I would never say anything that would be perceived as being hateful or hurtful due to their race.
Again, just my humble opinion.
I'm white and have a half friend. Him and I used to call each other "Ninja". I also like the alternative that I first heard Snoop Dogg use - "nephew". Of course it doesn't get much better than when Pinky says "Nyucca"........
Well, I guess I'm white. I'm half Italian and always check "other" on surveys/forms..........
Asshat
05-12-2008, 10:17 PM
It's everyones dream to yell out a racial epitaph, but make it "legal" Can you picture it? Hundreds of white people doing rap songs with the N word, then later on saying "but it was rap, and I thought "you people" allowed that in songs."
Almost as pathetic as making a thread about it. Five pages already discussing something that everyone knows is wrong.
I wonder how many threads could be started with; "George Carlin often called people dumbass, and said **** alot. Do you think that is appropriate, since even though it is PC to not say that, you know you are a dumbass, and it should be all good right?"
Sheesh. The levels of threads just keep getting lower and lower.
I prefer to call myself "Nilla" as in a va-Nilla, or Nilla Wafer
Asshat
05-12-2008, 10:24 PM
I prefer to call myself "Nilla" as in a va-Nilla, or Nilla Wafer
I prefer to call myself an over-weight Black chic from Ireland. At least currently.
Pink Floyd- "put em up against the wall.."
TheLastDon
05-12-2008, 10:41 PM
What's up naggers?
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=-o--jppsNpU&feature=related
Asshat
05-12-2008, 10:43 PM
What's up naggers?
Waaaahs up whiners?
badkitty
05-12-2008, 11:12 PM
Omfg! Yall Are Some Crazy Niggas!!!!
TheNoNamedOne
05-12-2008, 11:57 PM
I wonder how many threads could be started with; "George Carlin often called people ...
Speaking of George Carlin, here he is in a back and forth splice with Richard Pryor, after Richard Pryor had a change of heart on the use of the word, but George is shown showing how it is still ok to use with context. Who's right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCS5I80X-8
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