How can we save the dugongs?

[afansi]

The dugong is a critically endangered animal which is protected under Japanese and American law. It's only foothold in Japan is in Okinawa, but coastal development, including the construction of a new military base off Camp Schwab threaten the animal's future. What's your opinion?

[Crazysix]

no opinion the japanese only care about this animal when it suits them to care, and the japanese govt is the ones that came up with the idea of relocation of the airfield, obviously they dont care nor do I .....dugong taste good

[P_chan]

I agree with what C6 says. Seems like a convenient excuse to protest the new air field IMO.

[Muku]

American law fyi doesnt mean squat here in this case.

Next does this picture ring a bell....? That says it all imo.
http://www.ggnrabigyear.org/images/Northern_Spotted_owl%5B1%5D.jpg

[laughingman]

The infamous spotted owl.

I know how to save the dugong. Allow private ownership of dugong. Ridiculous you say? Consider this, whats the difference between a cow and a buffalo? Why is one close to endangered and the other nowhere close to it? Private ownership. If there is an economic incentive to protect the dugong it will be saved.

Also, privatize the ocean, that is allow property rights within the ocean. Conservation groups could then purchase parcels of the ocean and make natural preserve for these creatures to reside in. They can simply disallow all fishing, boating, development within their property. Easy.

Unfortunately the government does not allow property rights within the ocean, only the government it seems has the right to determine what will and will not be allowed/built/developed within the ocean. Politics trumps dugong's survival = dugong is screwed.

[Crazysix]

The infamous spotted owl.

I know how to save the dugong. Allow private ownership of dugong. Ridiculous you say? Consider this, whats the difference between a cow and a buffalo? Why is one close to endangered and the other nowhere close to it? Private ownership. If there is an economic incentive to protect the dugong it will be saved.

Also, privatize the ocean, that is allow property rights within the ocean. Conservation groups could then purchase parcels of the ocean and make natural preserve for these creatures to reside in. They can simply disallow all fishing, boating, development within their property. Easy.

Unfortunately the government does not allow property rights within the ocean, only the government it seems has the right to determine what will and will not be allowed/built/developed within the ocean. Politics trumps dugong's survival = dugong is screwed.
LMAO I want the waters off of diamond head,all suefers will have to pay me to surf and I want to own 32 great whites or tigershark for pure protection of property
:thumbup::thumbup:

[Crazysix]

American law fyi doesnt mean squat here in this case.

Next does this picture ring a bell....? That says it all imo.
http://www.ggnrabigyear.org/images/Northern_Spotted_owl%5B1%5D.jpg
so thats what was in my KFC taste damn good

[badkitty]

so thats what was in my KFC taste damn good

I knew it!!! I knew it!!! Damn KFC.

[Crazysix]

Kfc....killed Fresh And Cleaned

[thistle]

There was already a thread on the dugongs, Alfansi......go back and check!

[P_chan]

I wonder how dugongs taste?

[thistle]

American law fyi doesnt mean squat here in this case.

Next does this picture ring a bell....? That says it all imo.
http://www.ggnrabigyear.org/images/Northern_Spotted_owl%5B1%5D.jpg

OK, so Muku why are you comparing the spotted owl and dugongs??

dah

[DougP]

Heres an idea. Sink Mihama and Sunabe into the ocean. Create new wetlands and underwater grass beds and move the dugongs to their new habitat.

Of course the DNO would have to remain vigilant in protecting the species from being caught in fishing nets other threats like sulphuric compounds and red soil erosion and run off. Oh what to do what to do? Maybe round them up and move them back to the Philippines, Malaysia and Australia where their fellow dugongs seems to be living in larger numbers.

[DOCROB]

Dugongs taste gooood!!!!!!!!!

[silviasichigo]

I think the best way to save them is migrate them to Australia

[P_chan]

I think I have a new sign for the base protesters!

"DUGONG GO HOME!"

I thought a dugong was a pokemon anyways?:D

http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/9846/images/dewgong.gif

[Muku]

OK, so Muku why are you comparing the spotted owl and dugongs??

dah
Well until the idea came about to move the airfield from Futenma to Henoko I can not recall anyone ever saying anything about wanting to protect the dugong or for that matter that they even existed in the area that is being discussed today for the construction.

If the dugong is in such a sad state and it's environment needs such care then where was all the bitching about protecting their environment previous to the proposed move?

Seems to me that noone gave a crap about them until it could be used as a tool to prevent the base move.

[Rossi46]

hmm, I think in this animal’s best interest we should kick the military off island and move the Okinawian's to mainland and we can kill two birds with one stone (no pun intended)

1) Save the rain forest
2) Save this poor bird/owl/dugong thingy

Give me my plane ticket back to Misawa or Yokota please, ill be the trial:thumbup:

[okisteve]

Well until the idea came about to move the airfield from Futenma to Henoko I can not recall anyone ever saying anything about wanting to protect the dugong or for that matter that they even existed in the area that is being discussed today for the construction.

If the dugong is in such a sad state and it's environment needs such care then where was all the bitching about protecting their environment previous to the proposed move?

Seems to me that noone gave a crap about them until it could be used as a tool to prevent the base move.

You are probably correct Muku. The spotted owl was also "used" to protect old-growth forests in the Pacific northwest. It raised a huge controversy and made many people enemies for years and years, also probably put many loggers and sawmills out of business.

But the big trees are still standing, and I think that is a good thing.

[thistle]

Well until the idea came about to move the airfield from Futenma to Henoko I can not recall anyone ever saying anything about wanting to protect the dugong or for that matter that they even existed in the area that is being discussed today for the construction.

If the dugong is in such a sad state and it's environment needs such care then where was all the bitching about protecting their environment previous to the proposed move?

Seems to me that noone gave a crap about them until it could be used as a tool to prevent the base move.

Well, perhaps they did not realise that that was the dugong's little hang-out.But there certainly were protests for protecting the enviroment, the local sea life, the coral etc.

I did not realise, Muku, that you were on the side of the war machines.

[DougP]

Well, perhaps they did not realise that that was the dugong's little hang-out.But there certainly were protests for protecting the enviroment, the local sea life, the coral etc.

I did not realise, Muku, that you were on the side of the war machines.

What's interesting is that the dugong's existence here in Okinawa has been known for sometime but its habitats have been under attack just as much from the local inhabitants of this island as the "war machine". Coastal development, red soil erosion, pesticide and industrial waste run off have pushed the dugong into migrating further north away from warmer waters. The fact that it took the Henoko project to raise concerns for their lively hood leads me to believe this is more political than it is about the dugong. Although I do think it is important to preserve the habitats of the native species I find it rather petty that they are being used as fuel to power a political agenda. I do not see anyone out there protesting industry who's plants rest along the coast line, the constant landfilling of coral shelves to erect new structures and businesses, the over fishing of the waterways or any of the past developments that have pushed the dugong to the brink of its Okinawan existence, its proverbial Alamo. So again, not sticking up for the military but these protests seem a bit one sided, misguided and its true goal is so transparent its disgusting.

[Muku]

Well, perhaps they did not realise that that was the dugong's little hang-out.But there certainly were protests for protecting the enviroment, the local sea life, the coral etc.

I did not realise, Muku, that you were on the side of the war machines.

I am not on either side per say. What bothers me is that in this case evironmentalists are using the dugong to prevent a move that overall would benefit the island and the military as well.

I am trying to be realistic in looking at the impasse that has come. Move the airfield to Henoko and in the process have 15,000 Marines and their families move from the most congested part of the island to Guam.

Not a bad trade off in my opinion, not that it matters. Plus the area that the airfield is being proposed doesnt have anything really stable economically and the increased business and influx of money into the district would benefit them greatly.

Back to the dugong, it is being used as a symbol to stop the construction there, that is a fact. If necessary, for the protection of the environment the dugong, the base needs to be moved elsewhere then so be it. If there are other measures that be taken to keep it where it is and build the airfield as well, that would be great too.

Plus the dugong is an endangered species right? I can not believe that there was no information at all about this species being in that area until the proposal of the new airfield was announced. If they, Japanese environmentalists had been keeping track of them up until know that area should never have been recommended in the first place.

But the big trees are still standing, and I think that is a good thing.
I dont disagree with you Steve as there are other resources available to the loggers.


Thistle now I think you can see though why I am made the comparison to the owl.

[DougP]

I'm also sure if those owls were living in a forest that was to be felled in order to plant mass corn crops for Bio fuel production, no one would stand in the way of the loggers.

[Sex Wax]

Plus the dugong is an endangered species right? I can not believe that there was no information at all about this species being in that area until the proposal of the new airfield was announced. If they, Japanese environmentalists had been keeping track of them up until know that area should never have been recommended in the first place.


That has been what I had been saying to some of my Okinawan friends for awhile. They dont seem to grasp that, they just want a bandwagon to jump on so they can wear thier t-shirts. I need to hurry up and make my "Save the Whales, B-B-Q the Dugong" T-Shirt.

[Asshat]

Pure bullshit! Okinawa has been sucking up the coastline for decades! "They" have destroyed countless reef, and caused increased silt polution from run-off.

Now all of a sudden the Dugong is at issue? Like an accused rapist, this is more ammo by people who really don't care about anything but fomenting their own political adgenda...and that is NOT taking care of wildlife. (Or young women)

[proudtobnotpc]

no opinion the japanese only care about this animal when it suits them to care, and the japanese govt is the ones that came up with the idea of relocation of the airfield, obviously they dont care nor do I .....dugong taste good
I tend to agree with 6 on this one. If they really cared about the ocean they would have stopped indiscriminate fishing methods a long time ago before they destroyed the they're waters. Nett fishing and long lining do far more damage than any building will do:cursing:

[okisteve]

I'm also sure if those owls were living in a forest that was to be felled in order to plant mass corn crops for Bio fuel production, no one would stand in the way of the loggers.


That has been happening in other countries but in the US it is other cropland that is being used. Actually, it is looking more and more that ethanol from corn has been a huge mistake. I'll post a link to a story I read yesterday in the drive-by media:first:, but first I need a nap.

The issue about biofuel seems to be that with all the corn being diverted for fuel, and the whopping rise in corn prices, other food prices that are based on corn (meat for instance) have risen 20-30% in the past year ot two. Also it has pushed up the price of other grains, so bread and rice are much more expensive, which really affects developing countries most and contributeds to instability.

Unintended consequences raises its ugly head, once again.

Incidentally, the big boosters of corn-based ethanol have been companies like Cargill and ADM. Can you guess why?

[P_chan]

Incidentally, the big boosters of corn-based ethanol have been companies like Cargill and ADM. Can you guess why?

Well I know cargill processes corn. We have a cargill factory back home in the states. I never knew the odor from proccessing corn smelled like shit.

[okisteve]

Well I know cargill processes corn. We have a cargill factory back home in the states. I never knew the odor from proccessing corn smelled like shit.


They are a multibillion agricultural marketing combine.

Note to self: check with Guyjin on last point.:ohmy:

[thistle]

Dugongs aside - I don't see that it is great to build the airfield anywhere on or near Okinawa.
What is their justification for it?
Everyone knows it was supposed to have been moved out of Okinawa 15 years ago.

Are you saying that it is going to be split between here and Guam?

[DougP]

Dugongs aside - I don't see that it is great to build the airfield anywhere on or near Okinawa.
What is their justification for it?
Everyone knows it was supposed to have been moved out of Okinawa 15 years ago.

Are you saying that it is going to be split between here and Guam?

Ah ha, so this isn't about the dugongs, is it?:D Gotcha :thumbup1:

[Asshat]

Dugongs aside - I don't see that it is great to build the airfield anywhere on or near Okinawa.
What is their justification for it?
Everyone knows it was supposed to have been moved out of Okinawa 15 years ago.

Are you saying that it is going to be split between here and Guam?

Because the Government of Japan wants to keep an airfield here.

[thistle]

Ah ha, so this isn't about the dugongs, is it?:D Gotcha :thumbup1:

No it is not my thread! I started a thread about those Dugongs last year and it was all about dugongs.........so really we don't need to talk about the dugongs anymore.:)

[thistle]

Because the Government of Japan wants to keep an airfield here.


They have an airfield - it is called Kadena Air Base:-|

Why do they actually need the other airfield?

[Asshat]

They have an airfield - it is called Kadena Air Base:-|

Why do they actually need the other airfield?

You'd have to ask the GOJ. However the USAF says the USMC helo's can not share the field.

Also, what good are helo's here if the USMC who uses them isn't here? There are lots of politics in this, but it is centered around the GOJ, not the US Military as some would have you believe. The US Military doesn't set foreign policy, nor decide the strategic posture of the US or Japan (who it has an agreement to support) without full approval of the GOJ.

[silviasichigo]

Ok I got the answer it just came to me this is how we save the dugongs

1. Burlap bags
2. coat hangers
3. fillet knives
4. leather tools
5. comfortable sole rubber
6. scissors

then we make them into shoes and handbags then they will be immortalized forever in the eyes of the wearer...

[DougP]

No it is not my thread! I started a thread about those Dugongs last year and it was all about dugongs.........so really we don't need to talk about the dugongs anymore.:)

:ohmy: but the thread title is " How can we save the dugongs?":(

[proudtobnotpc]

I got an idea, not a good one but an idea. What if we send recon out in the night and just take the damn Dugong out. No Dugong no problem:army:

[thistle]

You'd have to ask the GOJ. However the USAF says the USMC helo's can not share the field.

Also, what good are helo's here if the USMC who uses them isn't here? There are lots of politics in this, but it is centered around the GOJ, not the US Military as some would have you believe. The US Military doesn't set foreign policy, nor decide the strategic posture of the US or Japan (who it has an agreement to support) without full approval of the GOJ.


You know that is a good idea. I think I will just go and do that, I have few hours to spare this afternoon.
What department at the GOJ do you think I should write to? department of defence?

[Asshat]

I got an idea, not a good one but an idea. What if we send recon out in the night and just take the damn Dugong out. No Dugong no problem:army:

Haven't you learned about those symbols yet Doug? Dugong is a symbol for "get rid of the bases."

I wonder- seriously wonder if ANYONE who raves about the Dugong has ever seen one. I also wonder if these same people have any idea how many have been killed by fishermen over the years.

What I would really like to see is a Dugong proponent discuss the numerous HUGE landfills here and postulate on the permanent devastation they have caused...as they shop there way through Mihama for example.

[thistle]

:ohmy: but the thread title is " How can we save the dugongs?":(


Well maybe it was...but Muku soon changed the whole thing posting those giant pics of an Owl.
He's the one who confused everyone:ohmy:

[DougP]

ah ok I got it, the hooters got you distracted:D j/k:D

[SPMF#1]

Dugongs...I'll miss them and feel the same impact that the do-dos made me feel...ummm nothing. this is all about politics not some damned animal.

[SPMF#1]

ah ok I got it, the hooters got you distracted:D j/k:D

Damnit!!! Don't do that, I thought I missed something important (like a picture of hooters) but there was only some damn bird...I think I remember shooting one of those one time, right before I chopped down it's tree...:rolleyes::D

[Sex Wax]

I think they should go ahead and make the air strip. Then they should create a SOFA job like "Dugong Monitor" or "Protector of the Dugongs". I would do that job. And the Marines there could have the Dugong as a mascot, and we could have Dugong Beach Parties. we could make cool t-shirts that said "Devil Dugong" and "Tuefel Dugong"

:thumbup1:

[DougP]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/DougGTR32/dugong.jpg

[Sex Wax]

Nice work DougP !

:thumbup1:

[gunny8511]

Is this all about yet another obscure strain of kangaroo rat?

Granted, those little buggers don't get enough credit...they really are tasty when you stuff 'em in a jalapeño with some cheese and deep fry 'em.

[dk]

Love the new pic, Doug. :D

[DougP]

Love the new pic, Doug. :D

Thanks, and for anyone out there that thinks they (the dugongs) have it bad, they're living it up, note the blue ray player and wide screen:D

[TheLastDon]

Dam Dugongs, I'm jealous, I want a BluRay player.

[thistle]

[QUOTE=Muku;92207]II am trying to be realistic in looking at the impasse that has come. Move the airfield to Henoko and in the process have 15,000 Marines and their families move from the most congested part of the island to Guam.

I still don't understand all that you are saying here......are you saying that they will build the airfield somewhere in the prefecture anyway, but yet in the process move 15,000 Marines to Guam? I thought it was going to be more in the figures of 7,000 marines.

If they are moving it to Guam, why do they still need to build another airfield here in Okinawa anyway?

Just a concerned citizen.:rolleyes:

[proudtobnotpc]

[QUOTE=Muku;92207]II am trying to be realistic in looking at the impasse that has come. Move the airfield to Henoko and in the process have 15,000 Marines and their families move from the most congested part of the island to Guam.

I still don't understand all that you are saying here......are you saying that they will build the airfield somewhere in the prefecture anyway, but yet in the process move 15,000 Marines to Guam? I thought it was going to be more in the figures of 7,000 marines.

If they are moving it to Guam, why do they still need to build another airfield here in Okinawa anyway?

Just a concerned citizen.:rolleyes:

6,000 Marines and total of 15,000 thats the Marines plus Dependents

[thistle]

But, but..no-one is anwering my question here.

If they are moving the marines to Guam, then they no longer need/will build a airfield here in Okinawa pref.
Is that right?
Or do they need two - one in Guam and still need an extra airfield here?

[proudtobnotpc]

But, but..no-one is anwering my question here.

If they are moving the marines to Guam, then they no longer need/will build a airfield here in Okinawa pref.
Is that right?
Or do they need two - one in Guam and still need an extra airfield here?
I believe the Marines that are moving to Guam have nothing to do with Futerma, they were just added to the package to make it more appealing to the locals:D

[Muku]

But, but..no-one is anwering my question here.

If they are moving the marines to Guam, then they no longer need/will build a airfield here in Okinawa pref.
Is that right?
Or do they need two - one in Guam and still need an extra airfield here?
First off I should have been more clear about the numbers. When I wrote 15,000 that was meant to be read Marines and dependants, as in total numbers. Sorry for any confusion.

Next the airfield being moved with in the prefecture was one of the points made in discussions about the base being returned. The base is needed for operations here evidently and Guam would be too far away.

Like proud wrote the other bases being returned were added later to sweeten the pie and hopefully help expedite the move from Futenma to Henoko.

The Marines and dependants that are being scheduled to be moved to Guam are mostly support troops stationed at Kinser, and Foster.