Animal Blood Sports

[TheNoNamedOne]

What do you think about forcing animals to fight?

Does enjoyment from the spectacle make it ok? Profits from gambling on it? How about if it is part of the culture?

Or is it that you believe the welfare of the animal takes precidence over those human centered concerns? If you believe hedenism is an acceptable philosophy, then animals clawing and biting themselves into mutilated pulps for your enjoyment should not bother you.

Though, bad news for the hedenist animal fighter enthusiasts -- just last week the last of the cockfighting states, Louisiana, went down under pressure from animal protectionists as it was legislated away and criminalized.

And police recourses are aggressively being applied to dog fighting rings, too, bringing large fines and stiff prison penalties since Pres. Bush signed a federal animal fighting law several months ago making much of the crimes associated with it felonies, where as before they were often designated as misdameanors.

Courtesy Warning: Two short scenes of 3 seconds each in this 6 min video show some blood during a dog fight. If you are sensitive to that, then do not activate video.

YouTube - Help Stop Animal Fighting!

[P_chan]

It's kinda sad to see animals forced to fight. I'm a big dog lover so I really don't like dog fights. On the other hand animal fights that are part of a culture are different. Things like the running of the bulls and the bull fighter here on this island are ok with me. I am aware that most animal activist still think that animal fights related to culture are still cruel.

It's unfortuante that a lot of animal rights activist treasure an animals life more then their fellow man's. They also like to project human emotions on animals that animals, in most cases, don't understand or have.

Heh just look at kadena's emblem! It's a rooster! Thats because some old ass general a long time ago enjoyed cock fights.

[Boost]

Animal fighting is just sick and wrong no matter what way you look at it. There really is no excuse in allowing it to continue.

[thistle]

Just read an article on Msn News about dog fighting in the States, it is disgusting, I did not even heard much about dog fighting before in any country, people must be really sick in the head to do something like that for entertainment.
When I was a pretty young kid I once went to a real bullfight in Spain, I have never forgotten it till this day, it was pretty thrilling but I could not really look:cool:

[Asshat]

When I was a pretty young kid I once went to a real bullfight in Spain, I have never forgotten it till this day, it was pretty thrilling but I could not really look:cool:

Is that the one where the matadore repeatedly stabs the animal in the shoulders to infuriate it before finally killing it?

Don't tell the Chamorros how bad cock fighting is. On Guam, it's what they do, and has been considered a cultural event.

[DoctorP]

Animal fighting is just sick and wrong no matter what way you look at it. There really is no excuse in allowing it to continue.

Says the notorious pit bull owner/trainer! :D

Seriously...I can't stand animal fights and do not understand people who condone it. It's kinda like raising your kid and then throwing the kid in a pit to fight to the death!:rolleyes:

[Boost]

Says the notorious pit bull owner/trainer! :D



LoL-Yeah let me tell ya, she's a real "killer" too. That is if you allow her to smoother your face with kisses anyways. I swear, if she could wear a crown, she would have one the little stinking princess. :)

[Tempestuous]

Says the notorious pit bull owner/trainer! :D
:

Over my dead body!!!! :eek:
I go into tears over even thinking about the day when she passes away....let alone intentionally training her for her death......UGH! Makes me ill just thinking about it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

It's kinda sad to see animals forced to fight. I'm a big dog lover so I really don't like dog fights. On the other hand animal fights that are part of a culture are different. Things like the running of the bulls and the bull fighter here on this island are ok with me. I am aware that most animal activist still think that animal fights related to culture are still cruel.

P_chan, are you saying that cruelty takes a back seat to culture and should be permitted to continue? You don't think that bullfighting is cruel?

I am not sure where you fall on the issue of dog fighting, other than it makes you kinda sad because you are prejudiced to liking them. If horrid pitbull dog fights are the culture of a small town, and has been for years, you think it should be permitted to continue because culture gives it a pass to do so?

Laws are often created to smash cultural heritage because appeal to tradition is not a valid reason for inhumane practices.

According to you I am wondering if cockfighting should have never been tackled with the force of law to ban it because many in states screamed that it was part of their culture.

They also like to project human emotions on animals that animals, in most cases, don't understand or have.

I am applying this statement to the thread topic here. Humans display emotions of fear and submit when they have lost and want to preserve their life. Dogs in a fighting pit, too, will display emotions of fear and submit when losing by offering its kneck up as a sign of submission. Now, how is that projecting human emotions on to dogs? Are you saying these dogs are not fearing? are not submitting? do not wish to preserve their life?

In the fighting pit they are denied their natural social personality because that has been trained out of them. Usually a dog when they win, if permitted to do so without humans cajoling them to kill and dispatch their opponent, will let the loser go and live. In the killing pit they are denied to act on that.

Such sadism by man not seen in dogs speaks ill of the emotions they possess in relation to the animal world.

Heh just look at kadena's emblem! It's a rooster! Thats because some old ass general a long time ago enjoyed cock fights.

Yes, I understand how trained killers would be enthusiastic about killing for entertainment.

[TheNoNamedOne]

NFL star Michael Vick, touted by the NFL as a player to clean up the image of recent bad news from a string of lawbreakers amongst their ranks, has been, or is about to be indicted on running a dog fighting ring on his Virginia property, along with friend and cousin.

On Vick's property they were engaged in Pit Bull fightings and operated amongst other dog fighters as BadNewzKennels. For years the local police were getting reports of the dog fighting from locals but were reluctant to do anything about it, but when the Humane Society of the United States put the fire under the US Attorney's office, the feds swooped in and took over, leading the investigation.

The indictment reads and looks grim for Vick who could face 3~6 years in prison, be fined $350,000, and also pay restitution. Among the accusations are that losing dogs which did not die in the fighting pit were:

hosed down with water and electrocuted
hanged
drowned
shot


Nike has shelved the release of its new Vick shoe (a multi million dollar endorsment with Vick) as animal activists have targeted Vick's sponsors, bringing pressure to bear on them.

Even other NFL players have weighed in and voiced their disgust at dogfighting and how this case is highlighting that and our treatment of animals and what is humane and not:

Packers defensive end Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila said, "I have a brother who doesn't like dogs. He's kicked it before. I'm like, 'What are you doing?' And he'll say, 'It's just a dog,' " Gbaja-Biamila said. "That's not a good mentality to have. God created all these creatures, and it's our responsibility to take care of them, to keep them safe, and not put them in a situation where they get hurt. You don't treat any living thing like that. It's inhumane.

Source. (http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/sports/index.php?ntid=202346&ntpid=2)

Sidebar: Boost and Temp, be sure to read the whole story. It talks about Pit Bulls being so kind licking people to death, like I have heard you mention before.

Thanks to Michael Vick for putting this issue in the forefront to people who may be his fans but may have never thought much on the issue. Hard to escape that now when a player they may look up to or idolize is now facing jail time on felony cruelty charges.

But a bigger THANKS will go out to prosecutors when they put this animal abuser behind bars.

[Boost]

It's good to see that Robert Ferguson has and is taking action to utilize the high profile nature of this event to shed light on the subject of pit bulls in general vs. those used in dog fights. That there is a difference in the socialization and treatment of those who are kept as family pets and those that are abused for an illegal sport.

I think another area that could use some attention is that any joe shmoe off the street can breed these or any other type of dog. I get sick when I see people around here in grocery store parking lots with signs that read "pitbulls for sale." Generally these people do not look like the type of person I would want to buy a pet from so it also worries me about the type of people who are buying them as well.

[Tempestuous]

Sidebar: Boost and Temp, be sure to read the whole story. It talks about Pit Bulls being so kind licking people to death, like I have heard you mention before.


Yup, that's our princess dog!

I was frustrated by the news yesterday covering the Vick case saying the CDC has X% of all fatal dog bites are from Rotties or Pitbulls & most of the fatalities are from children under the age of 4.

What parent of a 4yr old or younger is leaving their kid alone with large dogs? Have you ever noticed kids that age are rough and mean little buggers when it comes to animals? witnessed my 2yr old niece lovingly kick (literally) her puppy off the couch just today. You should be protecting your kids.

What pet owner of this type of bread leaves their dog alone with a young child? I know the rap my dog has (undeserved, but it is there)
I am extra vigilant to protect my dog as any responsible owner should be.
Example-
They can jump 6-8ft straight up from a sit still- my dog does not go outside unattended, even in a fenced yard.
You should be protecting your dog.

UGH!!! Ignorance of the people leads to these dogs being labeled and banned such as they are.
Drives me crazy!

[Oki Cajun]

I too am a dog lover and almost vomitted when hearing the laundry list of charges of dog mistreatment by Michael Vick. Dog fighting is one thing, but to torture the dogs that didn't want to fight ? Thats just taking to a level it never needs to go. I don't support animal fighting of any kind, but I do have to admit, from what I've heard about the "bull fighting" on Okinawa, it sounds like a different kind of thing. My sponsor told me he has seen proud owners walking their bulls like someone would walk a dog. I have no idea how the winner is determined, but having two bulls square off is just different. It could be just as brutal I suppose, but who knows ? As far as cock fighting goes..that was a big Louisiana "cultural event" also. Basically it was just a very primitive way to get people to bet on something. If you notice, no one really truly jumped on Vick until it was discovered what happened to the dogs who didnt wanna fight. All I can say about him and others who willingly do that to helpless, defenseless animals is that they must not believe in kharma.

[TheNoNamedOne]

A little update on the Michael Vick dog fighting news:

He has been ordered by the NFL to not attend training camp. Ha!

Nike has decided to postpone the release of their Vick shoe without saying if it ever would appear.

This guy, Vick, signs a multi-million dollar contract, moving into a world where everything is at the tips of his fingers with no money worries, basically, the world at his feet, and what does he do? He decides that "keepin it real" means to keep hanging out with the boiiiiiz and cousins from the ol' gang by doing shoddy crap.

I mean, when you become a multimillionaire, there is no more "keepin it real" -- like a Sports Illustrated writer said on the issue -- when you ink 100 million dollars in contracts for the next ten years that lets you play a boyhood game you love -- YOU'VE STEPPED INTO THE SURREAL.

Vick just can't decide who he is or wants to be: Shoddy felon keepin it real, or multimillion dollar player and mature businessman living in the riches of the sureal elbowing it up with other rich and famous in the sureal.

The choice is an easy one, but with Vicks' indecisiveness on the issue, dogs have to fight to the death or be executed by him and his depraved cohorts.

[dk]

Woah. I agree with your whole post.

[P_chan]

yeah me too! Thats a first.

I just think that dog fighting is sick. You take an animal that is not normally vicious and turn it into something horrible.

A buddy of mine got his pit bull puppy stolen out of his backyard. It was such a good playful dog and I feel kinda sad once I think about what it was put through after it was stolen.

I also could never see anything bad happening to my dog. Sure he pisses me off sometimes and has to be disciplined but not treated so inhumanly. Hehe if you want to see a pic of him just look at my profile he's in my profile pic.

[Tempestuous]

I too am a dog lover and almost vomitted when hearing the laundry list of charges of dog mistreatment by Michael Vick. Dog fighting is one thing, but to torture the dogs that didn't want to fight ? Thats just taking to a level it never needs to go......If you notice, no one really truly jumped on Vick until it was discovered what happened to the dogs who didnt wanna fight.

I was discussing this after seeing some news clips and some of the dogs were protecting themselves but their obvious body language was submission.
Dogs generally have a hierarchy, it's almost like some of them regardless of training, submitted to their natural instinct over training.....
It is really disgusting to think, know, hear what happened to these dogs that followed their instincts over their training.

Too bad humans don't have the same kind of instinct of decency. :(

[DoctorP]

But a bigger THANKS will go out to prosecutors when they put this animal abuser behind bars.

I agree with your post, but isn't he an "alleged" animal abuser until he is convicted?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I have to say I am pleased that eveyone is disgusted with dog fighting and Michael Vick's role in it.

Virtually every animal protectionist group is on this. Today I submitted my letter to Nike (https://community.hsus.org/campaign/US_2007_dogfighting_nike?source=gaba7g) asking them to consider their reputation and character of those whose names they use to sell their products, and to give the Vick shoe the BOOT.

You can, too.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Midnight our time this morning, I decided to call Nike's national customer service number, which is supplied by the Humane Society of the United States, to let them hear directly my comments and thoughts on the issue of their business relationship with Michael Vick.

Apparantly the lady taking the call was prepared for it, as they must be getting flooded with calls from most activists, and even just those who care about dogs, because the conversation went like this:

Nike: Customer Service. How can I help you?
Me: Yes, I am calling about the Michael Vick issue.
Nike: Ok, Sir. My I have your name.
Me: XXXXXXXXXXX
Nike: And what would you like to say. We are typing all comments on the issue verbatim and sending them to our executives. Please speak a little slowly, and I may have to ask you to repeat some parts.
Me: Thank you. Yes, I just want to say that the Nike brand stands for supporting excellence in sports -- not cruelty to animals. I know that Nike has already decided to cancel the Vick shoe for this year, but I would like to ask Nike to not continue their relationship with him or to bring out a Vick shoe next year, or anytime.

Americans hold a special place in their hearts and minds for dogs, and they value their relationships with their dogs. I would hope Nike would value that knowledge just as Nike would hope that its customers value their high quality products backed by endorsements from those with high character.

Nike: Is that all?
Me: Yes. Thank you.
Nike: And thank you Mr. XXXXX for taking the time in contacting us and letting us know your thoughts. I will be forwarding this right away. You have a nice day, now.
Me: You, too. And thank you, again.

BAM! I was outtta there and my voice added for justice! A nice little shot of adrenaline before bed.

[dk]

LMAO! That's one way to get an activist off the phone! Just act like you're taking a memo! I'm going to let our tech support and customer service staff know about this!

[TheNoNamedOne]

lol. Yes, and one way for us to stay on the phone as long as possible tying up lines. She never said there was a limit, and she took a fair amount of time. Asked me to repeat several times, and then at the end she read back everything I said.

I'll take operators and companies with policies like that any day for activism targeting!

[dk]

That's pretty impressive. :)

[DoctorP]

I'm sure she typed all of that! More like she was painting her nails while you went yakity yakity yak!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, she repeated it verbatim. Kudos to her with such great powers of recall if that is the case.

[dk]

They could have voice software that automatically puts the words you speak onto screen. I'm sure a company such as Nike could afford it. :P

Were you able to hear her typing?

[TheNoNamedOne]

LOL!

Could you please provide me to a link that has a product selling voice software that claims to be so highly advanced that a person would not recognize it as an automated voice? And I would like to see those documented testimonials as well for such a breakthrough.

I have yet to experience any, or even yet heard such software flouted as being here by any particular company.

But, if that was voice software from Nike, then kudos to them. I've been duped. <snicker snicker>

[DoctorP]

He didn't say you were speaking to a robot...it was recording your words!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Were you able to hear her typing?

Yes. She had to ask me to slow down a few times and repeat what I said at times also. There was that funny echo and lag I get with when I call my family in the States at times, which causes us to talk on top of each other.

I think that is what made it take longer than I expected. Getting around that lag and talk over problem.

[dk]

He didn't say you were speaking to a robot...it was recording your words!
Exactly. She could have been painting her nails, playing a tape of someone typing, and then every now and then asked TP to slow down or repeat himself just to make it more realistic. :p

And this voice software has been out for years. lmao. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=voice+to+text+software

[TheNoNamedOne]

lol. Yeah. I geuss I've been duped. Nike has us activists set up. Damn! I waisted my money on that call for nothing. Oh well. Learn and move on.

[dk]

Exactly, now you know.

And knowing is half the battle.

Next time ask her what color panties she's wearing. That should help you figure out REALLY quickly if you're speaking to a robot or a real person.

[TheNoNamedOne]

LMFAO!

I dunno...she sounded close to her 60's, which could mean dry and crusty along with the color.

[dk]

Ok, that's just gross. hahahaha.

Sorry for killing your topic. Feel free to bring it back on course. :P

[TheNoNamedOne]

The BLITZ is on Vick!

Little by little more of the indictment from the investigation is coming out.

It appears that when investigators swooped in to shut the operation down they found up to 55 pit bulls on Vick's property. They found a rape rack for breeding them and a prye stick specially made for opening jaws of dogs that have clamped down -- along with a complex kennel area that was built as part of the property when Vick originally purchased the property and built his home. But, he feigns ignorance of the whole thing!

Of the others indicted with Vick many will be testifying against him, including a few persons who negate Vick's claim that he did not know there were dogs or dog fighting on his property, saying that Vick personally paid a losing gambling purse of $35,000 to a visiting dog fighter owner, whose dogs beat two of Vick's dogs. That owner is also going to be testifying against Vick.

Witnesses also say that Vick was also personally consulted on the execution of one dog which was done by hosing the animal down and electrocuting it.

Funny how all these miscreants are now turning on one another like a pack of rabid dogs trying to save their own hide. There really is no honor amongst criminals -- or at least the indicted dog fighting kind.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Vick is sacked!

The full blitz rush was on by animal protectionists, and just today Nike has announced suspension of its contract without pay to alleged animal abuser and dog fighter the Vick.

It took some time, lots of networking, emailing, calling, and demos, but Nike eventually saw the light and did the right thing. But, to reminisce, here is how Nike stood by their man in June after the allegations began to surface in April:

"There is no change in the status of the agreement between Nike and football player Michael Vick," Nike spokesman Dean Stoyer said.

Oh, how much things change and evolve within a few months and after the release of indictment papers and activist pressure. Just today, we get to see some sacking by Nike:

"Nike has suspended Michael Vick's contract without pay, and will not sell any more Michael Vick product at Nike owned retail at this time. As we've said before, Nike is concerned by the serious and highly disturbing allegations made against Michael Vick and we consider any cruelty to animals inhumane and abhorrent.

Nike still has not fully terminated their relationship with him, though, keeping him on the bench, so to speak. But, I am confidant Nike will soon throw the Vick off their team.

Oh, and here are the kennels of Badnewzkennels built on Vick's Virginia property that he says he has no knowledge of, either them or of the dogs there:

http://www.profootballtalk.com/DogCages.jpg

But wait! There is more badnewz <snicker snicker> for the Vick.

Reebock, too, has announced they will no longer sell Michael Vick brand product that is contracted through NFL merchandising contracts.

"While we respect the legal process we find the allegations against Mr. Vick too disturbing to ignore, therefore, we have decided to immediately suspend selling Vick NFL product, both at retail and online through the Reebok website."

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, it looks like Michael Vick, after playing "Plea or No Plea" with federal prosecutors has taken the plea. Soon, after we hear the judges sentencing and what the NFL plans to do, we will learn if it is game over for the Vick. Ha!

On the radio tonight the Tom Joiner Show was all talk about the Michael Vick story. Tom was basically saying they were just dogs so no biggy, but man, the other two or three women who host that show were all over his arse, and this is one of the very few times where they really went after Tom, and every time he tried to make light of it they just brought him back down to serious dialogue on the matter.

Can't really remember a Tom Joiner Show like this that caused such a serious difference and dialogue between them. Excellent.

[DoctorP]

The max he can get is 5 years under the plea deal. I doubt that he serves any actual time though...probably 2 years, all probation. NFL will reinstate him (after this year) and he will be fine.

[Boost]

Here is an excellent piece I read on the Fox news website.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7140020?MSNHPHMA

In my opinion, even if he were to get the maximum (5 years) prison sentence, which is still too little time given the scope of his involvement. But it makes me feel a little better when I see the monetary boulder he will be hit with in lost endorsements and the likes.

[Crazysix]

No that Im pro dog fighting,but isnt dog fighting legal in japan, I have heard of a few to the death fights. I own rotties here and in the US not a better family dog i have seen yet but the only problem is they get the lapdog syndrome and never get over it, try have a 135lbs rot on your lap and his bigger brother on your feet while trying to play xbox, it makes for a very interesting game.

on the other hand there are owners who should be pit down for irresponsibility

http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=49447

[Muku]

The max he can get is 5 years under the plea deal. I doubt that he serves any actual time though...probably 2 years, all probation. NFL will reinstate him (after this year) and he will be fine.

He is going to take such a hit in the pocket book like no individual has ever faced for a criminal offense like he has plead guilty to. He will lose something in the neighborhood of $100 million in endorsements and contract money.

His career is over in my opinion, and rightfully so.

Now I really wonder just what was in the water bottle he was carrying through the airport?

[TheNoNamedOne]

In my opinion, even if he were to get the maximum (5 years) prison sentence, which is still too little time given the scope of his involvement. But it makes me feel a little better when I see the monetary boulder he will be hit with in lost endorsements and the likes.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Yes, Boost, the monetary hit is good -- not to mention that for the rest of his life there will always be some heckler in the crowd at events where he is noticed that will remind him of it -- probably a few barking sounds eminating from crowds.

More details coming out on the investigation says that those dogs which did not perform well in test fights were hanged. While waiting around for the dogs to expire it became apparent that some were taking too long to die. So, they filled buckets of water and vick forced their heads into the buckets until they drowned.

Not to mention several other dogs which were hosed down and electrocuted and some whose heads were bashed against concrete.

Imagine that, being hung and drowned because you were just too nice.

[TheNoNamedOne]

"If Vick bares his soul in public (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118770702953304087.html?mod=googlenews_wsj), and if his delusional followers stop encouraging him to stay defiant by excusing away everything he does wrong (the water bottle thing, the flipping off the fans, the stiffing of the U.S. Congressmen, the Ron Mexico deal, the watch incident), he will be forgiven by more than just a Higher Power," Mr. Moore writes. "He will be forgiven by just about anybody you can imagine. … Vick needs to cry on Barbara Walters' couch on national television. After that, he needs to call Larry King. Then he needs to do '60 Minutes,' and with legendary bulldog Mike Wallace prodding and poking, he needs to pull a Jimmy Swaggart. Through it all, Vick needs to save a few sobs for Bryant Gumbel on HBO's 'Real Sports,' but you know exactly where I'm going: Oprah."

But, as the same story asks, can an arrogant person such as Vick, who has never felt an ounce of humility in his whole life, even come close to doing that and making it felt by others as sincere?

After seeing him innitially enter his plea, all spiffy in his expensive tailor made suit, just short of sounding like OJ who proudly exclaimed, "absolutely 100% not guilty," I doubt it. At least now we know we won't suffer through a Michael Vick hypothetical tell all story ten years from now titled, "If I had done it [dogfighting]," -- because we now know he did.

Too bad he didn't have OJ's option of killing all witnesses. He just did the dogs. Ironic, OJ, the other football star left the dog alive.

The criminal's worse mistake is always leaving someone left behind to tell the tale. Vick's friends turned on him in a heartbeat knowing that longer prison terms would be "keepin it real" much too long for them.

With Vick and his high paid attorneys unable to avoid a conviction, Message sent loud and clear to miscreants of lesser economic status:
Engage in animal fighting YOU will lose your freedom.

[P_chan]

http://www.break.com/index/many-people-love-what.html

I wish I had the rest of that interview. I wonder what else he said to come to the defense of vick.

[dk]

That cracked me up something fierce.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Scramble left, scramble right... Vick's front line men Bandnewzkennels friends throw down their defenses, the Presecutors' rush is on. Leading the charge, the Federal Prosecutors just out in front of the State Prosecutors come bearing down on him.

Vick has no where to go, can't dump the ball. He has run all the way back to his own end zone. Take a knee Vick! Take the plea Vick! Take a Knee.

He is not sure what to do. Doesn't know if he is on game show Plea or No Plea or in court, or on the field. The only sure thing he is aware of is that the Dog Days of August have come back from the dead to haunt his miscreant ass and biting the shit out of it.

Commissioner Roger Goodell suspended the Atlanta Falcons [Michael Vick] (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070825/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_michael_vick) quarterback indefinitely without pay, ...

he commissioner said Vick's admitted conduct was "not only illegal but also cruel and reprehensible."

"You are now justifiably facing consequences for the decisions you made and the conduct in which you engaged. Your career, freedom and public standing are now in the most serious jeopardy," Goodell wrote.

Miscreant dog fighters deserve no freedom.

BAM! TACKLED! LOCK 'em up!

[DougP]

Yup I glad to hear it too. I'm tired of Pro players and celebs getting off the hook so easily. His best chance now is the Canadian Football Leage :)

[Muku]

all spiffy in his expensive tailor made suit, just short of sounding like OJ who proudly exclaimed, "absolutely 100% not guilty,"
Michael Vick is guilty of allowing people around him to kill dogs bred for fighting, which is illegal, and probably killed a few of them himself.

OJ imo got away with murder.

The two are nowhere even close to being the same.

[Muku]

Miscreant dog fighters deserve no freedom

Nor the animal rights activists that cause injury to people attempting to make their own living legally. They deserve no freedom either.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Michael Vick is guilty of allowing people around him to kill dogs bred for fighting, which is illegal, and probably killed a few of them himself.

OJ imo got away with murder.

The two are nowhere even close to being the same.

Of course they are not. I specifically said he came off sounding like OJ in his arrogant style of pleading his innocense.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Nor the animal rights activists that cause injury to people attempting to make their own living legally. They deserve no freedom either.

Feel free to start a thread on that. It could be interesting and perhaps many will chime in on it to agree with you.

This one is titled Animal Blood Sports.

[Muku]

Of course they are not. I specifically said he came off sounding like OJ in his arrogant style of pleading his innocense.
I know exactly what you wrote.

Why equal him to OJ, there are plenty of other people out there, maybe not as famous, that probably sounded the same.

Imo you used OJ because you see this crime of Michael Vick's as being similar to OJ's.

[Muku]

Feel free to start a thread on that. It could be interesting and perhaps many will chime in on it to agree with you.

This one is titled Animal Blood Sports.
No need to I stated my opinion in response to what you wrote, that's fine with me.

I can read the title of the thread as well, I am not blind:rolleyes:

[TheNoNamedOne]

I know exactly what you wrote.

Why equal him to OJ, there are plenty of other people out there, maybe not as famous, that probably sounded the same.

Imo you used OJ because you see this crime of Michael Vick's as being similar to OJ's.

No, I used him based on his arrogance in denying the charges and the irony of targeting different victims and leaving the other alive.

The difference is what makes the irony.

There was no equating the victims. Only the arrogance of the criminal. Why would you be indignant with equating criminal arrogance of the guilty? That says nothing disparaging about the victim.

[Muku]

No, I used him based on his arrogance in denying the charges and the irony of targeting different victims and leaving the other alive.

The difference is what makes the irony.

There was no equating the victims. Only the arrogance of the criminal. Why would you be indignant with equating criminal arrogance of the guilty? That says nothing disparaging about the victim.

I still say that you miss one point, OJ was found innocent, my feelings and thoughts not withstanding.

Michael Vick has not pleaded guilty to killing any animals at all.

You, have tried and convicted both OJ and Vick for crimes that they have not been convicted of.

You dont have to write it, it is so easy to read between the lines of your posts here on this thread.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I still say that you miss one point, OJ was found innocent, my feelings and thoughts not withstanding.

No, that is not the point. I clearly made the point that my words targeted his arrogance (a perception shared by most), not withstanding whether he or OJ are/were guilty or not.

Michael Vick has not pleaded guilty to killing any animals at all.

Oh really?

He admitted (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070825/ap_on_sp_fo_ne/fbn_michael_vick) that dogs not worthy of the pit were killed "as a result of the collective efforts" of himself and two co-defendants.

Now ya know.

You, have tried and convicted both OJ and Vick for crimes that they have not been convicted of.

I stand guilty of judging OJ guilty. What can I say? If not in guilt of deed, then I judge him in guilt of arrogance.

Vick does not need to be tried and convicted. He has pleaded guilty. That lets us move straight to the sentencing round.

[Fonze]

Ive been to about 12 pitbull fights and though I thought thay were cool then(about 8yrs ago) I dont think that its cool and pretty cruel shit. Iv'e also been to many cockfights and in the end i believe its cultures and people fighting for animal rights that make the choice for viwing it. Thats what peta should be about not saving food from slaughter

[Muku]

Ive been to about 12 pitbull fights and though I thought thay were cool then(about 8yrs ago) I dont think that its cool and pretty cruel shit. Iv'e also been to many cockfights and in the end i believe its cultures and people fighting for animal rights that make the choice for viwing it. Thats what peta should be about not saving food from slaughter

You know what I find to be ironic is that I think the same people that get po'd about stuff like this would love to see a UFC match and two people beat the pulp out of each other.

[DougP]

You know what I find to be ironic is that I think the same people that get po'd about stuff like this would love to see a UFC match and two people beat the pulp out of each other.

UFC is a sport, nothing wrong with it. Don't see any connection between the two.

[dk]

Yeah, it's not like UFC fighters are being forced to fight to the death or being killed for not fighting. I would see the connection if that was the case. Figured that much was obvious.

[DougP]

maybe like gladiators in Roman times or something :)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yeah, it's not like UFC fighters are being forced to fight to the death or being killed for not fighting.

No shit.

I would see the connection if that was the case. Figured that much was obvious.

Apparantly not.

[Muku]

Yeah, it's not like UFC fighters are being forced to fight to the death or being killed for not fighting. I would see the connection if that was the case. Figured that much was obvious.
No the point is two mammals fighting against each other for sport and renumeration.

What Vick is guilty of is betting and providing a location for dogs to battle against each other.

Have any of you seen the dog sumo here in Japan? Have you ever seen a cock fight?

Shit how about putting all the people that bet on or participate in bull fighting in Spain in jail as well. Hell they use spears to the back strap of the steers and KILL the damn steers after the fight is over.

I dont see anyone here bitching about that? I also dont see anyone bitching about Chinese or Koreans using dog meat in their food either.

I am not attempting to justify what he, Vick, is guilty of, only to point out that too many people are overly selective in what is "right" or "wrong".

It is all hypocritical in my opinion. What he did was against the law. From that point only he deserves to pay the price that society and government laws deem as apprpriate.

However to say it is due to the act themselves is hypocritical in my opinion.

I've eaten dog meat when I was in Korea and to tell the truth is wasnt that bad either. That is of course after I ate it and people told me what I had eaten. :cool:

[TheNoNamedOne]

What Vick is guilty of is betting and providing a location for dogs to battle against each other.

No, not only that. You still haven't seen what he has admitted to. He has also admitted to killing dogs that lost and did not perform well. He is guilty of animal cruelty laws as well -- and if prosecutors file those, conviction will be quite easy (if he decides to fight it -- but how could he? <snicker snicker>).

Shit how about putting all the people that bet on or participate in bull fighting in Spain in jail as well. Hell they use spears to the back strap of the steers and KILL the damn steers after the fight is over.

That is not against the law there -- yet. But whether or not if it ever does become outlawed, and people continue to engage in that, then like you said, jail time could be a real possibility for them as well. Things take time, you know. Be patient, and the consistency you demand will begin to grow into place.

You aren't holding animal cruelty laws to the standard that all must come into being consistent at the exact same time with each other, are you? IF so, then that is not very realistic. Laws evolve over time.

I dont see anyone here bitching about that? I also dont see anyone bitching about Chinese or Koreans using dog meat in their food either.

lol. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. In due time, in due time.

I am not attempting to justify what he, Vick, is guilty of, only to point out that too many people are overly selective in what is "right" or "wrong".

I sure am not one who is selective. And those in the AR movement sure are not selective.

It is all hypocritical in my opinion.

You mean you are calling all those who are not ARists hypocrites, right? I do agree with you, though. Those who like or care for the protection of certain animals are selective, and that does leave them open to the charge of hypocracy. But, the animal protection movement knows that people have selective likes when it comes to animals, so if we can bring them into the movement to just work on certain parts of animal protectionism, then we welcome them.

Of course, we would like consistency, but we are realistic in knowing that a large portion of the population just want to work on their piece of the puzzle that bothers them. They make us stronger by lending their energy and support to us.

I guess it is kind of like people downloading SETI programs for their computers to go through data and to feed to a super computer in helping find evidence of alien life in Cosmos. Sure, few give over their whole computer 24/7 for the task, but many don't mind lending its energy to the goal when they are off the computer.

I've eaten dog meat when I was in Korea and to tell the truth is wasnt that bad either. That is of course after I ate it and people told me what I had eaten. :cool:

Not related to animal blood sports. More appropriate to put that testimony in your vegetarian thread you created and have since abandoned.

Or are you saying that you could mistake a Korean Tae Kwon Do match for a SUMO match and not know the difference until after the match someone told you what it was? Of course I grant you that is possible if you had never seen either, but I fail to see how it relates to blood sports where two animals are forced to fight to the death, or the losing dog that submits is killed.

You keep conveniently leaving out important aspects in your analogies that show them to be non analogical.

[Muku]

More appropriate to put that testimony in your vegetarian thread you created and have since abandoned.

I hate getting PM's from people that tell me they have replied to a thread, I am not blind.

Even tried to put you on ignore but since you are a moderator here I can't, but I can choose to reply or otherwise as I deem fit. You are not my mother, nor my wife so complain all you want, it will fall on deaf ears.

Since you claim to be a prosecutor, then prosecute me for it.:rolleyes:

[P_chan]

Those who like or care for the protection of certain animals are selective, and that does leave them open to the charge of hypocracy.

So I guess I'm a hypocrite because I have a soft spot for dogs but not for cows? I don't consider myself a hypocrite because I'm a dog lover yet I eat cows and animal rights activist think it's wrong. If anything, extreme animal rights activist that condone violence against people and the destruction of property are the hypocrites.

[Muku]

So I guess I'm a hypocrite because I have a soft spot for dogs but not for cows? I don't consider myself a hypocrite because I'm a dog lover yet I eat cows and animal rights activist think it's wrong. If anything, extreme animal rights activist that condone violence against people and the destruction of property are the hypocrites.

I agree with you here:thumbup1:. I have a soft spot in my heart for cows too, even after they are butchered into the steak that I love to eat.:D

[Fonze]

TP I have said i.'ve seen these fights and there cruel, but jail time for killing a dog not a loving pet is to harsh. People are dying everyday from dui's children are being neglected and abused, even sexually assaulted and some get less time than they are suggesting for Vick. I already know what your going to qoute up write that on another thread.
I know these groups probably mean good but why not fight and win these issues before being so only animal rights.

[DougP]

TP I have said i.'ve seen these fights and there cruel, but jail time for killing a dog not a loving pet is to harsh. People are dying everyday from dui's children are being neglected and abused, even sexually assaulted and some get less time than they are suggesting for Vick. I already know what your going to qoute up write that on another thread.
I know these groups probably mean good but why not fight and win these issues before being so only animal rights.

I'd also like to think that what ever punishment Vick gets is not just because of the animal rights issue. And I'd also would like to think that they are giving him the hammer due to the stupidity factor. I mean come one you're making millions and you invest time and money into dog fighting?! People that are that stupid should be locked up just for being that idiotic.:rolleyes:

[TheNoNamedOne]

I hate getting PM's from people that tell me they have replied to a thread, I am not blind.

You have also thanked me before for that courtesy.

Hmmm... go figure.

[socalheart]

I'm not a fan of animal blood sports. I don't mind equestrian sports (http://64.23.86.204/sports01.html) though. As Doc Holiday says in Tombstone (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108358/), "My hipocracy only goes so far." I'm not a fan of people boxing and fighting either. It's the whole blood thing. Ew. :crying:

[TheNoNamedOne]

So I guess I'm a hypocrite because I have a soft spot for dogs but not for cows? I don't consider myself a hypocrite because I'm a dog lover yet I eat cows and animal rights activist think it's wrong.

Go back and read Uchinamuku's post. He is not an animal rightist, but, yet, he views you as a hypocrite.

Here again:

Shit how about putting all the people that bet on or participate in bull fighting in Spain in jail as well. ...

I dont see anyone here bitching about that? I also dont see anyone bitching about Chinese or Koreans using dog meat in their food either.

I am not attempting to justify what he, Vick, is guilty of, only to point out that too many people are overly selective in what is "right" or "wrong".

It is all hypocritical in my opinion.

You see, P, since you have not come out against bullfighting or the cultural quisine of dog eating, Uchinamuku things you are a hypocrite for being against dog fighting. His words are plain and clear.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP I have said i.'ve seen these fights and there cruel, but jail time for killing a dog not a loving pet is to harsh.

Well, I and all the legislatures and people who have voted for ballot innitiatives, or for candidates that don't agree with that sentiment, and you, will simply agree to disagree.

Those laws and penalties are tightening and becoming stricter all the time due to the public support of stiffer penalties for cruelty to animals. I have yet to see a grass roots effort to reverse the trend. If you can show me one with traction, perhaps my view of them being too harsh would come to match yours. But as of now, I and the many of us who applaud those laws, do not find them too harsh at all.

People are dying everyday from dui's children are being neglected and abused, even sexually assaulted and some get less time than they are suggesting for Vick.

There certainly are miscarriages of justice when rapists or murderers get off for their crimes or when they serve very little time. The problem there does not lay with the successful prosecution of animal abusers with long jail sentences, but with the skill of the prosecutors or inept view of the sentencing judge and jury. The answer is not to lessen punishments for animal cruelty, but to rachet up punishment for criminal behaviour.

I am all for stiffer punishment for criminals.

I already know what your going to qoute up write that on another thread.

I don't think you do.

You tied your point in directly to animal cruelty laws/sentencing which covers animal blood sports. Quite fair for discussion here.

[Fonze]

Tiki Barber put it best, when u work ur ass of for a contract like he got it's time to say goodbye to some of those highschool chump, trouble makers you called friends.

[TheNoNamedOne]

The faces of dog fighting:

The Good. (http://www.hsus.org/)

The Bad (http://www.usanimalprotection.org/gypsy100.jpg). (Image Warning)

and The Realy Ugly (http://media.hamptonroads.com/media/content/hamptonroads/2007/05/0526vick500x325.jpg).

[P_chan]

Go back and read Uchinamuku's post. He is not an animal rightist, but, yet, he views you as a hypocrite.

Here again:



You see, P, since you have not come out against bullfighting or the cultural quisine of dog eating, Uchinamuku things you are a hypocrite for being against dog fighting. His words are plain and clear.

I think you took what he said out of context. What I got from his post is that they shouldn't be any harder on vick then they should someone else who is convicted of dog fighting, nor should they be any easier on him. That wouldn't be justice, that would be special treatment for him because he's famous.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I think you took what he said out of context. What I got from his post is that they shouldn't be any harder on vick then they should someone else who is convicted of dog fighting, nor should they be any easier on him. That wouldn't be justice, that would be special treatment for him because he's famous.

Not at all. Go back and read it again.

He specifically contrasts it with the practice of bullfighting and eating dog meat and wonders why those who have spoken out against dog fighting here have not included those practices in their comments, too.

And a few posts prior to that he tries to analogize it with humans fighting one another.

Simply put, he is off base. And simply put, his words show that he views you as a hypocrite for being against dogfighting by not stating you are against eating dog meat or bullfighting.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Get this. Michael Vick is going to talk to the public about his dog fighting. Oh, don't be under the mistaken notion that he might make himself available to 60 Minutes, or any hard nosed legitimate journalist who will not only ask hard questions, but will come back with follow-up question -----OOOOH NO!

Since he viewed the lives of dogs as anything less than worthy of taking serious, he will speak to the public through a radio comedian -- Tom Joyner -- on the Tom Joyner Morning Show! LOL!

What a wimpy panzie that can't face the music to some hard questions aimed at them. I mean, you gotta be kiddin, right!? I am sure Vick, or one of his miscreant minions, caught the Tom Joyner Show last week where Tom was all over the place bleating, "They're just dogs,man!"

"Just dogs" -- not worthy of any consideration that would require outrage on the treatment of them or the consequences from that. "Just dogs."

Here ya go for those who would like to catch the show on AFN this week:

Vick's defense attorney, Billy Martin, said Vick will "explain his actions" publicly, but did not say when. The "Tom Joyner Morning Show (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=3523993)," a syndicated program based in Dallas, said it will have a live interview with Vick on Tuesday, and he will take questions from callers.

If AFN's broadcast is live, then it may be Tues night here at about 8 or 9 pm. If it is recorded and one day late, then probably same time on Weds.

[Muku]

I think you took what he said out of context. What I got from his post is that they shouldn't be any harder on vick then they should someone else who is convicted of dog fighting, nor should they be any easier on him. That wouldn't be justice, that would be special treatment for him because he's famous.

Correct, also I would like to point out that not having any previous record he should in my opinion also be given the benefit of the doubt as any first time offender would be given.

He has been tried and convicted in the court of world opinion. I only brought up the other examples to show that people are rather selective.

For the record here I DO NOT view you or your opinions as being hypocritical, no matter how much TP wants to think otherwise, and I am the ONLY one that can answer that.:D

[TheNoNamedOne]

I think you took what he said out of context.

Correct, ...

Well, it is convenient to claim so. Politicians and other public officials do so all the time when their words clearly are recorded and clearly show what they said -- to any embarrassment they might or might not have. No reason why Uchi can't copy them.

...also I would like to point out that not having any previous record he should in my opinion also be given the benefit of the doubt as any first time offender would be given.

LOL! You lack an understanding on what is meant by the benefit of the doubt. What are you talking about? There is no benefit of the doubt. He has freaken confessed. What do you mean? He should just walk without conviction and serving time for a crime he has confessed to? That is ludicrous, and a ludicrous message to send to criminals engaged in criminal activity for the first time.

If no hard evidence exists for an alleged first time offender, and there is no confession, then yes, there is doubt. This is not that circumstances. Your analysis does not allow you to analogize properly or vice versa.

He has been tried and convicted in the court of world opinion.

World opinion is now moot. He has confessed! He did it. If anything he has validated that world opinion on him was corrrect when he had only been an alleged dog fighter.

Perhaps there is some legitimate points to made for an aggregate world conciousness. Not saying there is, but for the most part, those who voiced their opinion on Vick's guilt, have been vindicated as correct.

And let's get something straight, it is not as if Vick killed one dog or went to one dog fight. It is dogs, and dog fights. Not one day. Many days. Not one year of operating BadNewzKennels ( <snicker> bad newz, indeed for Vick) but over several years. There is the plural here, and it is not like he just did a mistake one time. He did mistakes multiple times over a long period of time.

Saying he is a first time offender for something is like saying drug king Escobar of Columbia caught the first time for drug tafficing over years was a first time offender with his capture and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Reason and law don't work that way, and reason does not work prejudicially. If 2+2 equals 4 in Montana, then it is going to equal 4 in Virginia.

I only brought up the other examples to show that people are rather selective.

Yes, and to point out their hypocracy. I applaud you. To your credit you did well on that account. You have no reason to backpedal for want of not rankling the feathers of some.

[Muku]

World opinion is now moot. He has confessed! He did it. If anything he has validated that world opinion on him was corrrect when he had only been an alleged dog fighter.

He never confessed to killing any dogs, I could go through your copius number of posts and point that one out to you but I choose not to.

Last comment to you;

If you cant dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your bull!

Which to me fits you and your replies here on this and numerous other threads to a "T".

Bye yo nara!:D

[TheNoNamedOne]

He never confessed to killing any dogs, I could go through your copius number of posts and point that one out to you but I choose not to.

<sigh>

He acknowledged bankrolling the operation, participating in the execution of dogs (http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/WireStory?id=3524831&page=3) in April and sponsoring and sometimes attending dogfights over the past six years.

What semantics are you and he going to rest his innocense from culpability on dog killing on?


He just turned on the hose before one of the other miscreants electrocuted them?
He just handed the other miscreant the .22 that was used to kill the dog?
He just held the dog while the other miscreant forced a full bucket of water into its face for drowning?


Thing is, that kind of semantical evasion didn't fly with this Federal Attorney in Richmond.

He met his match in the U.S. Attorney's office in Richmond, and an indictment that described how Bad Newz Kennels dogs were executed after being beaten in fights, or for not showing enough ferocity in test sessions.

Another thing, the judge assigned to this case has a reputation as a hard-ass no nonsense judge when it comes to sentencing.

The pack has been getten some back from Vick, and it will be taking a lot more out of his arse.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Raids on dog fighting rings have spiked since the Vick case has highlighted this activity of miscreants. Helping that has been animal protection orgs offering up to $5,000 for tips on dogfighting in their neighborhoods.

Oh, this is too funny. Looks like that some of that inner city "Stop the Snitchin" isn't protecting dog fighters. It sure didn't help Vick. His homeys turned on him in a heartbeat with some heavy duty snitchin.

Here are some of the recent busts (http://www.hsus.org/acf/news/dogfighting_raids_increase.html):


August 20, 2007: In Atchison, Kan., law enforcement arrested two people and seized 12 dogs. They planned to file dogfighting charges.

August 19, 2007: Police arrested two teens in Toledo, Ohio, for dogfighting and seized five dogs.

August 17, 2007: The authorities seized three dogs as well as drugs (ecstasy and crack cocaine) and arrested two men in Ford Heights, Ill., on dogfighting charges.

August 17, 2007: Officials raided a home in Mount Vernon, N.Y. twice in one week, charging two people with dogfighting-related charges, and seizing a dozen dogs in all.

August 11, 2007: Law enforcement interrupted a dogfight in Detroit, Mich. The participants ran off, but officials seized three dogs, along with a fighting pit and medication commonly given to fighting dogs.

August 10, 2007: Following up on the raids in N.M. from the previous day, officials hit two locations in El Paso, Texas, and seized approximately 25 dogs.

August 10, 2007: A man in Greensboro, N.C., faced dogfighting charges upon his arrest. The authorities seized 14 live dogs and found a dead dog on the property.

August 9, 2007: Law enforcement raided two locations in Chaparral, N.M., and seized 38 dogs. Officials arrested two men associated with Southwest Kennels.

August 8, 2007: Police arrested a Beaufort, Ga., man for dogfighting. At the scene, they found 12 live pit bulls, three dead pit bulls, a dead raccoon and conditioning equipment of the type often used by dogfighters.

August 8, 2007: In Fresno, Calif., officials arrested five people and seized 11 pit bulls, in addition to drugs and firearms. At the scene, officials found six graphic videos of dogs fighting.

August 8, 2007: A drug raid in Buffalo, N.Y., turned up ten dogs who authorities believe were being used for fighting. They seized the dogs.

August 7, 2007: A car crash in Indiana County, Pa., led to the discovery of a pit bull in the back seat who had bite marks and other injuries consistent with dogfighting. Official seized the dog and arrested the driver.

August 3, 2007: The law caught up again with a convicted felon in Portland, Ore., during an arrest which netted 11 dogs. The accused dogfighter ran an operation called Dead Game Kennels.

August 3, 2007: In Indianapolis, Ind., officials arrested a man for dogfighting and seized six dogs.

August 3, 2007: Law enforcement charged a woman in Salem County, N.J., with dogfighting after her landlord found a fighting pit and an injured dog in her basement.

August 2, 2007: Police arrested two men in Austin, TX, for dogfighting, and seized two dogs.

August 2007: In the first week of the month, officials arrested five people in Saginaw, Mich., for dogfighting and seized three dogs.

July 30, 2007: Officials arrested a man in Rochester, N.Y., for dogfighting and seized an injured pit bull.

July 30, 2007: Authorities raided a dogfighting operation in Tallahassee, Fla. They arrested one man and seized 32 dogs.

July 27, 2007: Police arrested three men in Philadelphia, Pa., on dogfighting charges. They seized four dogs.

July 27, 2007: In Beaufort County, S.C., law enforcement arrested a man on animal cruelty charges and are investigating him for dogfighting. Officials found three dead pit bulls in addition to 12 live dogs seized.

July 26, 2007: Brian Bailey, a prominent dogfighter who runs a transport company and has served prison time for dogfighting, was arrested with one other person in Burbank, Ill., while making a transport run. Officials seized 12 dogs.

July 19, 2007: Police in Houston, Texas, arrested one adult and a juvenile on dogfighting charges, using a confiscated videotape to identify the suspects. The video showed young children watching the dogfight.

July 18, 2007: Officials arrested a deputy sheriff in St. Martin's Parish, La., on charges related to dogfighting and seized more than a dozen dogs.

July 2007: In the last week of the month, police in Fort Pierce, Fla., arrested a man and seized 30 dogs from a suspected dogfighting operation.


You, too, can get a reward for providing information on dog fighting to authorities in your neighborhoods that you know about or hear rumors on.

Couldn't we all use an exra $5,000 in our pockets?

From lead CEO of the Humane Society, Wayne Pacelle:

First, we are now officially doubling our financial reward—from $2,500 to $5,000—for information leading to the arrest of any person involved animal fighting. We want to provide financial incentives for people who turn in animal fighters, and this reward program will add eyes and ears to report these animal abusers in every community in the country. We'd be pleased to pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars in rewards. So let the calls come in, and we will work with law enforcement nationwide.

[Fonze]

I know of 3 dog fighting rings in the states and mexico. These are trained fighters just like trained fighters. I dont believe they should be treated like vick was of accused of treating loser dogs but i will not be a snitch for something like this when there are 100's of issues that deserve better justice than fighting animals not pets.

[P_chan]

Well, it is convenient to claim so. Politicians and other public officials do so all the time when their words clearly are recorded and clearly show what they said -- to any embarrassment they might or might not have. No reason why Uchi can't copy them.

But I got what uchi meant once he said what he did. You have a boner for animals and are twisting his words to try and make your argument look more legitimate and his more full of holes. He wasn't back peddling, he was using an example of how vick's sentence will most likely be unjust.

I can tell by how much you've posted about this subject that the closer he gets to being convicted, the bigger your throbbing chubby gets. It would be the same with any animal 'rights' case you hear about. Now I wonder if it was a serial rapist of little girls about to be convicted. People would be crying bloody murder if he didn't get a fair and just trial, which he should, no matter what type of person he is. But because it's about animals, and you get a trouser snake once you see an animal, deep down I think you want him to get a stiffer penalty. Hell I bet you'd be really happy if they fed him to a pack of rabid pit bulls.

Thats why I just can't take animal 'liberators' seriously. They preach equality for animals, so long as it's in their favor or not an inconvenience to them.

[Muku]

Thats why I just can't take animal 'liberators' seriously. They preach equality for animals, so long as it's in their favor or not an inconvenience to them.

I equal them with any radical group that pushes their agenda to the detriment of any and all others. There is no middle ground either you are with them or against them.

[TheNoNamedOne]

... i will not be a snitch for something like this[dog fighting] when there are 100's of issues that deserve better justice than fighting animals not pets.

Interesting thought, Fonze.

Yes, there are many crimes and issues of justice larger than dog fighting. I think we would all agree that torturing, raping, and murdering a defenseless child is at the top. But police still ticket jay walkers.

In New York it is no secret that when Rudolph Gulliano took over as mayor, they were experiencing out of control crime rates of the felonious types. I mean there was almost a break down of any respect for law and order. Crime at all levels was rampant. Police were taking the view that, "oh, it is just jay walking. Oh, it is just a broken window. Oh, it is just grafiti etc..." and justifying that with what you have put forth as a reason to not help police enforce the law, "more important things yada yada yada" and hence respect for rule and law is eroded away at some level.

Well, Gulliaoni took a different approach. He said there wasn't going to be anymore justifying turning the other way on small crimes, because he felt that ignoring and not enforcing the law of lower end crimes lead increasingly to higher crime rates of the more serious type. And once they did start clamping down on these lower end crimes, there was a drop in the murder, homicide, and rape rates.

So, if I were you, I would say don't fall into the hip hop message of "stop the snitchin." The police could use your help at all levels in making society better -- even if you do view dog fighting as a lower end type of crime.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, it's official. The new poster boy for dog fighting (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070821/images/vick140.jpg), Michael Vick, appeared in court today to enter his plea. Just heard it on AP Network news on the radio. Hasn't been put on the web yet. They are probably writing it up right now and the webmasters of sights are getting ready to put it up.

If my memory is right (heard it approx one hour ago -- I'll correct myself if it is wrong) Vick pleaded guilty to conspiracy to running a gambling establishment of dog fighting (http://www.workingpitbull.com/images/fightsm.jpg)(mild image warning) and helping to kill dogs. That is how the AP worded it.

Now we just have to wait a few days for sentencing.

Grrrrrrr...Bite back! (http://www.tullio.net/heather/Fight800.JPG)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/209/512723226_0e54baa6dc_m.jpg

[TheLastDon]

Dog meat tastes good.

[coldnoodles]

Dog meat tastes good.

Yeah it tastes like chicken!

[TheNoNamedOne]

This thread is not about dog meat cuisine.

Back on topic.

[Muku]

This thread is not about dog meat cuisine.

Back on topic.
Maybe not but you have a nasty habit yourself of pulling topics off line and instigating off topic discussions all over the place. :cursing::cursing:

Please remember this response of yours here next time YOU do the same thing on other members threads, particularly as a moderator you should practice what you preach!

On topic, I hope he gets a fair sentence.

[P_chan]

Of course it won't be just.

[Muku]

Of course it won't be just.
Out of curiosity what do you think would be "just" in this situation?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Out of curiosity what do you think would be "just" in this situation?

Government: Five years in prison. $350,000 fine. Restitution. Ordered never to possess animals again.

------------------------------------

NFL: Lifetime ban

Loss of all sponsorships.


Don't feel bad for him. He's had the opportunity to sock away more than a few million by now. He'll be able to keep a lifestyle above other famous disgraced sports stars who have been 'deflocked' -- such as OJ

[P_chan]

The regular pentily that any joe schmo would get. But because he is famous, he probably won't get that.

[Muku]

The regular pentily that any joe schmo would get. But because he is famous, he probably won't get that.
I agree, you and for a first time offense, even if you or I bankrolled the entire operation would we get a slap on the wrists. Nothing more.

He is going to lose something in the neighborhood of $100 million because of this as well. I think that is punishment as well and should be taken into consideration during the sentencing, that is if the judge accepts the plea bargain agreement, he is not bound to according to the press releases.

To me I would say suspend the jail time, give him 5 years probation, community service and a stiff fine. That's for the legal arena.

NFL, well I will hold off on this one until the investigation about his allegeded gambling is finished. But he is suspended indefinetly for now.


Government: Five years in prison. $350,000 fine. Restitution. Ordered never to possess animals again.

Is this your opinion or are you just quoting some sentencing guidlines? The question was directed towards PChan but since you decided to jump in here and answer for him anyway...what is your idea of a fair sentence for him?

[TheNoNamedOne]

The regular pentily that any joe schmo would get. But because he is famous, he probably won't get that.

That is a possibility. But the judge in this case has a reputation as being a no nonsense judge that gives out stiff sentences.

Surely he won't get off as easy as Paris Hilton with his celebrity. In any case, remember Paris going to her trial holding the Bible? Wasn't that funny!? Finding God so conveniently when it comes time to stand before the judge. Well, Vick seems to be trying to pull something similar:

"Through this situation I've found Jesus (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/?iref=mpstoryview)," he added. He vowed to redeem himself, saying, "I have to.

And then the saying sorry bit:

Shortly after he entered his guilty plea, Vick apologized "for all the things that I've done and that I've allowed to happen."

Yeah. Sorry he got his arse caught.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Is this [TP's sentencing of MV] your opinion or are you just quoting some sentencing guidlines?

That is the maximum sentencing guidelines. I agree with those, that they should be applied to Vick.

The question was directed towards PChan but since you decided to jump in here and answer for him anyway...what is your idea of a fair sentence for him?

Questions posed in the public forum are able to be answered by anyone with their opinion. IF you want to pose it only to P, then I would recommend doing that via PM. If not, bringing it up is moot.

The maximum is fair in my opinion. It is not like he killed one dog and it was by accident. This was a pattern of despicable behaviour engaged in for over 5 years. I am all for sending a message that celebrities will not escape jail time (like you have suggest) such as what we have seen with Paris Hilton.

Now, if Vick had gotten caught and he had only attended one fight, fought one dog of his once, crossed states line once, committed conspiracy only once, and the whole operation lasted for little more than a few months, then I would be predisposed to something lighter.

But the scope in which Vick is up to his neck in it, requires very stiff penalties.

[P_chan]

I have a felling you would be for the max sentacing in any case pretaing to animals.

Giving him the max sentance to make an example out of him is not justice.

[Muku]

I
Giving him the max sentance to make an example out of him is not justice.
No it isnt, I agree as well.

I am all for sending a message that celebrities will not escape jail time (like you have suggest) such as what we have seen with Paris Hilton
What? When did I suggest that?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I have a felling you would be for the max sentacing in any case pretaing to animals.

Giving him the max sentance to make an example out of him is not justice.

Sure it is.

And FYI, I am for the max sentencing in any case pertaining to any violent crime that leads to the death of the victim.

I guess I am just a hard ass when it comes to sentencing violent criminals. No need for anyone to make apologies for that. Our system has been far too laxed in sentencing violent criminals -- IMO.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I am all for sending a message that celebrities will not escape jail time (like you have suggested) such as what we have seen with Paris Hilton.

What? When did I suggest that?

Post #97
To me I would say suspend the jail time, give him 5 years probation, community service and a stiff fine. That's for the legal arena.

If the jail time is suspended, then he sure wouldn't be serving it now, would he?

[Fonze]

TP you want people to tell the police for all crimes, but ur also the liberal type that would be crying invasion of privacy if someone got busted for something.

As to the vick punishment i dont think the stiffness of the penalty will be for the animals i believe it will be for the illegal gambling.

I also agree with Uchi that he should get probation and stiff fines with tons of community service hours at animal shelters and animal hospitals.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP you want people to tell the police for all crimes, ...

Why would you assume that? There have been many laws throughout history that have been unjust and needed to be broken. I support direct action that may break laws (e.g. breaking segregation laws, sit-ins at segregated establishments) when the status quo is unwilling to change unjust laws.

What have I written that would make you think otherwise?

...but ur also the liberal type that would be crying invasion of privacy if someone got busted for something.

Paris Hilton was busted. Michael Vick was busted. Jeffry Dalhmer got busted. Never cried about any of them for any invasion of privacy someone may claim for them.

If strong enough suspicion is grounds for a warrant to be legally obtained for the search of a suspect's person or their property, then I am all for that. I surely am against rogue police. Aren't you?

You are just stabbing in the air with your assertions.

As to the vick punishment i dont think the stiffness of the penalty will be for the animals i believe it will be for the illegal gambling.

Could be. Either way, I would like miscreants to be off the streets -- and if that means him going to jail on related charges stemming from animal cruelty charges, then fine. In the end the point is about punishment and getting him off the streets. He will have time to ponder all that quite deeply in his cell with other social devients.

I also agree with Uchi that he should get probation and stiff fines with tons of community service hours at animal shelters and animal hospitals.

That is good, too. But, no jail time is far too lenient. That aint gonna cut it with this judge who is not gonna be duped by Vick claiming to suddenly find Jesus. He will let Vick know that with at least a year's time.

[Fonze]

I gues hat i was ASSuming was that you wrote i should help the police reporting crime even though i dont think they are important. I couldcall the police and say someone was jaywalking or other small things, and those while trivial might be important to others.

I know im not the best writer and hardly articulate but hope you can understand.

On the whole "snitching" part I believe in crimestoppers and other things but I could accuse u of false things and have the cops at ur house 3 times a week and maybe change ur mind on vigilantism.

[Fonze]

I saw a show that ad a PETA person NOT denying that they euthanize cats and dogs inhe back of vas and DUMP there carcasas on the side of roads. Now with all that nonprof org money u think they would at least give them a proper burial.

The reason i put this here is cause Vick kille 6 dogs, PETA 14,000+

http://www.petakillsanimals.com

[P_chan]

I don't think it was 14,000 plus. I also believe I mentioned it in another thread.

No offense but it's kind of off topic in this thread.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Fonze and P_chan, if you are going to get on to PETA here about euthanizing animals (which I don't mind the topic), then why not take it over to the PETA thread, because Fonze had already posted the link there once to Petakillsanimals.com over there. If this goes over a few more posts on PETA's euthanizing, then it should be in the PETA thread -- unless you can tightly tie in the issue of euthanizing with dogfighting, showing very little difference between the two issues.

Perhaps you think you are tieing it in with hypocracy, but that does not quite stretch the gap of the difference between the two, since it is generally agreed that euthanization is a practice to relieve shelters of overpopulation or to end suffering. Vick killed dogs not to end suffering, but to destroy dogs that lost forced fights or those that didn't perform well in test fights.

Huge difference.

[Fonze]

the issue i have is about dumping them in the street, and how thats jus as bad as vick. I will do that though and move it to the PETA thread.

[P_chan]

I didn't say anything about euthanizing animals in this thread, until this post. I simply pointed out that I mentioned it in another thread. Actually, if anything I was kinda hinting that he should move to the other thread.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yes, I know. I was mainly directing it at Fonze, P.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, as I type I am listening to the Tom Joyner Morning Show, and they have announced that Vick cancelled their planned interview with them. I bet he didn't want to get dogged out <pun intended>.

A caller called in saying she felt sorry for him but at the end of the day he did wrong -- stating, "if he killed your dog...you would be all over him blah blah blah." Most callers seem to be pretty harsh on Vick. Tom Joyner seems to have reigned in his defense of Vick by not downplaying the crimes in comparison to how he did on last week's show.

Good call, Tom.

Still listening. Will post more on it if they talk more on it.

[DoctorP]

Well, as I type I am listening to the Tom Joyner Morning Show, and they have announced that Vick cancelled their planned interview with them. I bet he didn't want to get dogged out <pun intended>.

A caller called in saying she felt sorry for him but at the end of the day he did wrong -- stating, "if he killed your dog...you would be all over him blah blah blah." Most callers seem to be pretty harsh on Vick. Tom Joyner seems to have reigned in his defense of Vick by not downplaying the crimes in comparison to how he did on last week's show.

Good call, Tom.

Still listening. Will post more on it if they talk more on it.

Please...don't feel as though you need to...:rolleyes:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Please...don't feel as though you need to...:rolleyes:

lol.

Still listening. Man, you talk about bringing race into it. Tom and his show and guests are playing the race card left and right. Geeeeesh.

They just had a preacher on talking about " young black brothers (men) blah blah blah." Boy, the spin machine for Vick from Tom's show is in high gear.

"2nd chance this, 2nd chance that, even he apologized he is still being criticized, Vick, the epitomy of a black man stating he will redeem himself...."

Actual quote snippets. Man!

Anyone catching this bull?

[Fonze]

did someone do time from PETA dog dumping crew?
Oh no it was an error and there only human.

[TheNoNamedOne]

did someone do time from PETA dog dumping crew?

Not for sure. Haven't you been able to run down info on it?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Here is Vick's plea confession statement or Summery of Facts (http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/animal_fighting/vick_summary_facts.pdf) in full by The United States District Court.

If you are curious then check it out and give it a glance over.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Perhaps some of you by now have heard some out-takes of Vick' apology after his appearance before the judge. Well, I am not buying his apology. It comes off as timed and calculated rather than "speaking from the heart," which he claimed it was.

To me it fails in sincerity. And who hasn't seen the formulaic equation of those on their way to the courthouse and jail?:

Seeking forgiveness, mistakes made, immaturity, and the hairbanger -- Jesus.

It hit all the points and was neatly packed for consumption at his convenience -- in contrast to:

...the formula for a good apology (http://communities.canada.com/nationalpost/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2007/08/29/dave-gordon-michael-vick-hasn-t-made-a-kosher-apology.aspx) can be distilled into confession, reparations and remorse.

Vick’s apology failed in all of these areas, save perhaps “remorse.” Vick’s actions were premeditated, with repeated malice and forethought,

He shirked the responsibility of apologizing in a timely manner in an attempt to try and wiggle his way out of this, hoping that his boiz wouldn't turn on him. His apology was not out of choice, but no where else to turn. All options, barring nonremorse resulting in a longer jail term, werer simply off the table. He was blocked everywhere he turned.

What he did was more than mere “immature acts” and a “mistake.” What’s more, dogfighting is more than just a “terrible thing.” He needed to express why dogfighting is cruel, immoral, disgusting and barbarously heartless.

...A mistake is an oversight caused by bad judgment, negligence or faulty knowledge. If I inadvertently dated a cheque for the wrong month, that would be a mistake. Vick acted knowingly and intentionally.

Where was his statement to seek help for his dog fighting compulsion? Where was his promise to work with animal protection orgs to help stamp out the thing he now says is a terrible thing? Why didn't he tell us why he now all of a sudden believes dog fighting is terrible?

Where was his integrity? All I heard and saw was a man trying to push the right buttons to con the public about his sincerity -- and how late it was in coming:

His apology seems to be the product of careful planning with his legal team, rather than a heartfelt plea for forgiveness and a desire to change.

[Fonze]

Hey TP if you love and agree with PETA so much I would love to hear about you rounding up some fellow AR people and protesting all the stores that sell animals from breeders. That is what PETA is against anyways. I hope top see you starting animal adoptions at every corner u can find.

Also TP im curios to know how many animals you actually own? I hope its in the dozens.

[P_chan]

Also TP im curios to know how many animals you actually own? I hope its in the dozens.

I know this wasn't directed at me but just because someone loves animals doesn't mean they have to own 100 of them. I'm a big dog lover and I only have one dog.

I'm also a big fan of fast sports cars but I don't own one of those either. See where I'm going with this?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Hey TP if you love and agree with PETA so much I would love to hear about you rounding up some fellow AR people and protesting all the stores that sell animals from breeders. That is what PETA is against anyways. I hope top see you starting animal adoptions at every corner u can find.

Also TP im curios to know how many animals you actually own? I hope its in the dozens.

Fonze, the first point is more appropriate in the PETA thread, wouldn't you say? For it has nothing to do with animal blood sports, does it?

Though both could go in TheProsecutor thread, too -- since they seem more personal about me, and again, really nothing to do with animal blood sports, right?

[Fonze]

u make it seem like these threads don't ask about everyone else. Your running away and your hypocrocy is in the spotlight and shinning bright.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Fonze, I have no problem with answering those questions. Just post them in the appropriate thread so that this one is not derailed. I could move them myself, but I would prefer that members take some responsibility for self moderation -- particularly when it has been pointed out to them (and in my case here, quite politely to you).

[Fonze]

So i guess u own no animals, will get to the animal shelter fast before they kill another one of ur equals.

I will move any further PETA questions. I thank you for ur politeness sir.

[Brett23iu]

yeah I love animals

[TheNoNamedOne]

A Gallup poll doesn't look very supporting of Vick -- nor of any hopes he may have for future employment in the NFL:

Gallup poll: Most pro football fans say Vick must not return to NFL

WASHINGTON (AP) (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2007-08-29-2160461853_x.htm) — Michael Vick should not be allowed to play in the National Football League again, most professional football fans said in a poll that underscored how far the celebrity quarterback's star has fallen.

In addition, an overwhelming majority of fans want him to serve prison time now that he has pleaded guilty to a federal dogfighting charge, according to the Gallup Poll released Wednesday. Few would want to him to play for their favorite team should he return to the sport.

Glad to see that good taste exists within the majority of football fans.

Moving to the thought of underperformance and death metted out for that. I wonder what Vick would have thought had every pass thrown not resulting in a touchdown were viewed as underperforming and a little drowning, hosing and shock treatment came with that at the end of games?

That sure would be badnewz, and I don't think that dawg would like that. I'd be willing to bet on it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Dog fighting sports memorabelia from Vick is scooped up by the HSUS.

When Vick made his statement after his plea before the judge, he faced the press and and tried to humble himself (despite his pimp stroll). Right after the speech and his exit, though, the piece of paper he scrawled the points of his apology on was found on the floor by the podium. What great luck it came into possession by The Humane Society of the United States (http://www.hsus.org/).

Here it is:

http://hsus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/04/200x386_vick_talking_points.jpg

Look at the last point in the corner. It says, "Dogs have suffered." Huh, I don't recall Vick getting around to that part. How convenient to leave that off. Had he properly numbered it, the irony that it would have been #7 is not missed on anyone.

At any rate, the HSUS has put this sports memorabelia up on e-bay for auction and plan to add the proceeds gained from it to furthering their efforts against dog fighting. The bid has now gone over the $10,000 mark.

Get dem doggies!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Vick apologist calls all white people racists and hypocrites because they are not all out with the animal rightists trying to shut down circuses and whatnot.

He is also seems pissed that the white devil race calls him nigger all the time. This guy is a piece of art, and Vick should be ashamed that such a guy comes to his defense. Be sure to check it out.

YouTube - White Racist Scores Big Victory: Michael Vick: Plea-Bargains

Oh, and don't forget to read the post before this one.

[P_chan]

Dog fighting sports memorabelia from Vick is scooped up by the HSUS.

When Vick made his statement after his plea before the judge, he faced the press and and tried to humble himself (despite his pimp stroll). Right after the speech and his exit, though, the piece of paper he scrawled the points of his apology on was found on the floor by the podium. What great luck it came into possession by The Humane Society of the United States (http://www.hsus.org/).

Here it is:

http://hsus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/04/200x386_vick_talking_points.jpg

Look at the last point in the corner. It says, "Dogs have suffered." Huh, I don't recall Vick getting around to that part. How convenient to leave that off. Had he properly numbered it, the irony that it would have been #7 is not missed on anyone.

At any rate, the HSUS has put this sports memorabelia up on e-bay for auction and plan to add the proceeds gained from it to furthering their efforts against dog fighting. The bid has now gone over the $10,000 mark.

Get dem doggies!


I bet that's fake. Seriously, just seems too convenient. Probably the work of some animal rights nut job.....eh...... I mean 'liberator'.

[TheNoNamedOne]

You can be damn sure that probably some sports memoribelia expert will be hired to confirm it. And I doubt Vick's lawyers would let his celebrity be exploited through fraud.

[TheNoNamedOne]

More trouble for Vick!

A consortium of AR groups are hot on his trail dawgin (snicker snicker) him all the way into court up until the sentencing.

We all know that his guilty plea comes with the prosecutors recommending to the judge a sentence of 12 to 18 months (Judge Hudson has the right to impose longer terms), but AR groups are not satisfied with that. Hell no!

A freakin 31 page document submitted to the judge is requesting Vick be given a whopping kick ass 57 month jail sentence! Whoa! How do you like them doggies?!

...a friend of the court brief (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/sports/football/13vick.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin), which allows an interested party not directly involved in a case to express its views to the court.

You see. This is just what I have been saying all along. ARists and their lawyers use reason in addressing the courts to argue, and judges give that reasoning a hearing. There is no, "they are just animals" as a defense in court. You have to use your head, not just indignance.

Vick is gonna be getting a front seat lesson in reasoned argument and court procedings. But remember, he is not the Vicktom. The dogs were. Don't forget.

“The filing creates an atmosphere in which the defense may be forced to respond to the groups’ claims, and in which the probation office will have to take notice,” ...

He added: “It could change the dimension a lot. If the probation office says we know they agreed to 12 to 18, but we are convinced by this brief, the office may argue for 18 to 24 months. This could have a ripple effect.”

Short and interesting story. Take a minute to read the full thing.

[TheNoNamedOne]

When it rains, it pours.

Because of Vick's change in employment status <snicker snicker> due to his dog fighting problems and future jail stint as a federal felon, he has defaulted on a 2.5m loan from a Canadian bank and is now being sued because of it.

The lawsuit claims (http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/09/25/vicksuit_0926_web.html) that Vick is in default of the loan, which carried a balance last week of $2,313,694.37, for "numerous reasons," including that he failed to promptly provide a semi-annual personal financial statement and disclosure of his liquid assets as required by the loan.

The suit also claims that Vick is in default because of an "adverse change" in his employment "which could affect the borrower's ability to repay the note..."

How do you like them doggies? Not only the public, state, and federal prosecutors are on his trail, but the banks are hounding him, too!

He's been treed! Go get 'em boys.

Do ya think a dazzling football scramble will let him escape his woes?

[Tempestuous]

Well you figure, he probably has cars, houses, toys and more that he did not pay in full for. Kind of inevitable that he wouldn't be able to pay his bills, loans and such while not getting paid.

Things one should consider when considering illegal ventures....the possible outcomes/consequences & ramifications.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Dog fighting soon to be imprisoned lout Michale Vick has violated terms of his bail as he awaits sentencing for his guilty plea. Yes, this man just can't take direction and stay out of trouble, particularly when his freedom and number of days in prison are on the line.

Testing positive for marijuana adds to Vick's legal problems
(http://www.mercurynews.com/sportsheadlines/ci_7012526)Mercury News Wire Services
Article Launched: 09/27/2007 01:42:34 AM PDT

Michael Vick is now likely one misstep from jail.

The disgraced Atlanta Falcons quarterback tested positive for marijuana earlier this month, a violation of the conditions of his release...

"Every judge considers pretty seriously if they feel
Advertisement

that the defendant has flaunted the conditions for release," she said.
"It's certainly not a smart thing to do."

It's just about to start raining cats and dogs for the Vicktim of his own stupidity.

[P_chan]

I think I see a zombie thread:D

Honestly, I'd be suprised to see a pro athlete who doesn't do some type of recreational drug.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I think you are missing the point here, P. He knew the terms of his release until sentencing but yet he violated that. That is a stupid thing to do i.e. disregard a jugde's orders to you while you are awaiting sentencing -- no matter that is your regular "recreation" or not. It points to idiocy of this guy -- or sheer arrogance.

But, I sure don't mind him digging his hole deeper. I hope he indulges himself, does a line or two and then pop positive on his next drug test. It could aggrevate the problems facing him as the judge takes all that into consideration and deals out a harsher sentence for him.

Keep going your way Vick.

[P_chan]

No, I'm not missing the point at all, just stating the obvious. A majority of major sports stars act like they are above the law. It's nothing new, it was just double stupid for vick to do it because of his recent incident.

[TheNoNamedOne]

A few days late on this, but did ya all hear? Vick was sentenced by Judge Hudson to 23 months in federal prison. w00t!

The judge sentenced over the time the prosecutor and Vick had made a plea deal for which was 12~18 months.

Sacked!

[P_chan]

He will probably be admired by his fellow inmates.

[swindland]

Is that the one where the matadore repeatedly stabs the animal in the shoulders to infuriate it before finally killing it?

Don't tell the Chamorros how bad cock fighting is. On Guam, it's what they do, and has been considered a cultural event.


you're right on that one. it is a cultural event. my brother used to do that sport but don't really anymore. at least one of them does every now and then. I remember some agriculture dude came by the house and told my brothers that it is illegal to have the roosters tied up and he gave a warning and 30 days to get rid of the roosters. my brother just brought them over to my uncles house and gave him the clear. when there's a fiesta going on they even advertise that there's a cock fighting event going on. as a matter of fact i saw one last month when i went home. LOL..

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Bullfighting need not be violent and bloody...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting#Recortes
The bull is not harmed in any way. There is no blood and the bull is returned to the pen at the end of the performance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting#Portuguese

The bull is not killed in the ring and, at the end of the corrida, leading oxen are let into the arena and two hey'campinos on foot herd the bull along them back to its pen. The bull is usually killed, away from the audience's sight, by a professional butcher. It can happen that some bulls, after an exceptional performance, are healed, released to pasture until their end days and used for breeding


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting#French

This is a bloodless spectacle (for the bulls) in which the objective is to snatch a rosette from the head of a young bull.

[Tanimaga]

Cock fighting is about inhumane as it gets. Cheating is common and deadly. Cigarette filters shoved down the throats of the fighters to limit air supply, ensuring a loss..over tightened leg spikes to limit movement..
If a lung gets punctured during a fight, it usually fills with blood..the owner puts his mouth over the rooster's head and sucks the blood out of the body..ready to fight again until it dies.

[Fonze]

Cock fighting is about inhumane as it gets. Cheating is common and deadly. Cigarette filters shoved down the throats of the fighters to limit air supply, ensuring a loss..over tightened leg spikes to limit movement..
If a lung gets punctured during a fight, it usually fills with blood..the owner puts his mouth over the rooster's head and sucks the blood out of the body..ready to fight again until it dies.

I have been to plenty of cock fights and never saw anyone "SUCK BLOODY COCK" :D. But really never saw anyone do that. Cigarrete filters either. That because you usually have your rooster in your control befrore the fight and why would you do that to your own. Also the owners are supposed to put the leggings on so you dont limit movement. I dont know which cock fights you saw but those where some dumbass owners.

[Asshat]

I have been to plenty of cock fights and never saw anyone "SUCK BLOODY COCK" :D. But really never saw anyone do that. Cigarrete filters either. That because you usually have your rooster in your control befrore the fight and why would you do that to your own. Also the owners are supposed to put the leggings on so you dont limit movement. I dont know which cock fights you saw but those where some dumbass owners.

It probably depends on the venue Fonze. If there is heavy wagering going on, I am sure someone would be tempted to have a mediocre cock throw a fight for the right price.

But for the serious people, no one ever wants to loose, since it's about reputation, breeding stock, etc. Anyone who attends the fights regularly would know right off if there was a thrown match.

[Fonze]

The only reason I see anyone checking the other bird is to check for weapons in a non weapon fight.

[Asshat]

The only reason I see anyone checking the other bird is to check for weapons in a non weapon fight.

I didn't say checking a bird. I'm saying the regular attendees would know if a fighter brought in a new bird- and there is no gain on the new comer for the odds.

Or, if a fighter brought in a known winner, etc. Depends on the venue. I was comparing to Guam fights which are legal and have been going on since the dawn of time.

[Fonze]

Really, Guam has legal fights. That would be interesting to go to one if we ever got stationed thier.


Let me ask you something uminchu. Is it wrong to like watching or participating in animal blood sports?

[Asshat]

Really, Guam has legal fights. That would be interesting to go to one if we ever got stationed thier.


Let me ask you something uminchu. Is it wrong to like watching or participating in animal blood sports?

Yeah, I enjoyed Guam. I own a home there. Might go back. Might not. Cock fights are part of a cultural tradition on Guam. Legal and wide open.

Fonze, as far as right or wrong for the individual, well, I leave that for the individual to answer. It is a personal, moral question.

For me, I no longer hunt or kill animals. I eat the hell out of them though. I never enjoyed the fights but only because they were taking a natural instinct and turning it into something for man to enjoy...like getting out of church and seeing two dogs humping in the front...well, that was cool actually, but you get my point.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Cock fights are part of a cultural tradition on Guam. Legal and wide open.

Too bad for that. But I am confidant that cultural tradition in Guam, too, will be killed off in time by animal rights activists as they spread out and grow in numbers.

[Asshat]

Too bad for that. But I am confidant that cultural tradition in Guam, too, will be killed off in time by animal rights activists as they spread out and grow in numbers.

On Guam? Uh...no.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, I bet 50 years ago the country folk in Oklahoma and a dozen other States had a failure in imagination, too. Looks like they couldn't see the future.

That is why appeal to tradition is not a good thing to rely on as an opinion. Fallacies have a way of not supporting things when those things are targeted.

[DocTurtle]

Well, I bet 50 years ago the country folk in Oklahoma and a dozen other States had a failure in imagination, too. Looks like they couldn't see the future.


What the hell does that mean or ever refer to?!? *not said in an angry tone...just a really really confused one*
I didn't read all the posts...and maybe someone said something about Oklahoma or something...

[TheNoNamedOne]

What the hell does that mean or ever refer to?!? *not said in an angry tone...just a really really confused one*
I didn't read all the posts...and maybe someone said something about Oklahoma or something...

It is a reply to Uminchu's, "On Guam? uh...no." His answer is one in which he believes that cockfighting will never be stopped on Guam -- as if this cultural tradition is in some kind of locked setting or something.

Cockfighting in other places where it was viewed as cultural tradition has been stopped. I showed that. That is all it takes to show that the appeal to tradition is not a viable argument.

I'm not sure why you couldn't catch that since my reply to him was right under his post.

[Asshat]

It is a reply to Uminchu's, "On Guam? uh...no." His answer is one in which he believes that cockfighting will never be stopped on Guam -- as if this cultural tradition is in some kind of locked setting or something.

Cockfighting in other places where it was viewed as cultural tradition has been stopped. I showed that. That is all it takes to show that the appeal to tradition is not a viable argument.

I'm not sure why you couldn't catch that since my reply to him was right under his post.

Name one place which as been fighting cocks as long as Guam has. Name one place who will hold on to that cultural identity like Guam will. Oklahoma? Give me a break TP.

Have you ever lived on Guam? What do you know of the culture that would lead you to such a definitive prophecy?

[DougP]

I'm pretty sure the PI will be one of the last ones to let go of this tradition as well. I'd like to see some AR pilgrims brave enough to go down south of Visayas and spread their word.:D

[Asshat]

Well, they are pretty politically correct down there Doug, so you know things are a changin.'

I wont deny that cultural events are not locked in stone...they are forever changing in fact. But I have a hard time visualizing someone telling a Chomoro to stop cock fighting because it is bad.

After I built my home there, I had two flocks of wild chickens move in to my yard. They are all over the place. They get shot, ran over, and exterminated.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Name one place which as been fighting cocks as long as Guam has. Name one place who will hold on to that cultural identity like Guam will. Oklahoma? Give me a break TP.

Umi, I really can't believe you are going to say cockfighting will always be on Guam merely due to the argument of appeal to tradition. Come on. You know that just does not hold any water for the unknown future.

Hell, even in Spain bullfighting is taking a big hit and there is no guarantee that that will survive merely because of past traditions.

As for cockfighting being on Guam for such a long time that you are imagining (as if that is going to save it), it may not be as long as you think:

With an influx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight) of Filipino immigrants to the island before and after World War II, the sport has been accepted as a tradition.

Whoa! WW2 or a little prior to it!? Whoa! Loooong time indeed.

Those who waxed over the traditions of cockfighting in U.S. states fought strongly against it, and again, if someone were to suggest 50 years ago that it would be gone some day, that same old dusty blanket appeal to tradition would have been brought out against the opinion.

Have you ever lived on Guam? What do you know of the culture that would lead you to such a definitive prophecy?

Irrelevant. All anyone needs to know is that appeal to tradition is a fallacy and I can point to other places that were forced to give up their tradition of cockfighting that they claimed. It is just a failure of imagination to suggest that anyplace will hold onto all their cultural traditions just because... well... just because it has always been the tradition.

Cockfighting is also a cultural tradition in Puerto Rico, but there an already active push to ban it has come about. I am pretty sure Guam will hold out longer than Puerto Rico, though. But, perhaps not much longer.

Time will tell, and all I am using is the fact that activism can change cultural traditions and in fact have done so. Cockfighting in Guam will not be sacrosanct for disposing of forever. The time will come. I bet we will both be around to see it seriously challenged.

I mean, who would ever imagine that there are cities in Spain which have come out against bullfighting and banned them. I imagine bullfighting in Spain has been around longer than cockfighting in Guam.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I'm pretty sure the PI will be one of the last ones to let go of this tradition as well. I'd like to see some AR pilgrims brave enough to go down south of Visayas and spread their word.:D

lol. Well, ARists haven't grown their orgs to such large sizes by not exercising common sense and knowing when to use good judgment. But there are always those activists who are idealists who put themselves in dangerous situations.

What will most probably happen in PI, which has already started, is that ARists are homegrown in those regions and that growth has increased with the spread of communication technology -- such as the internet.

Some of you guys view the fact that total victory by ARists has not taken place yet as some kind of evidence that certain traditions of exploiting animals will ALWAYS continue.

Just not the case.

[DocTurtle]

It is a reply to Uminchu's, "On Guam? uh...no." His answer is one in which he believes that cockfighting will never be stopped on Guam -- as if this cultural tradition is in some kind of locked setting or something.

Cockfighting in other places where it was viewed as cultural tradition has been stopped. I showed that. That is all it takes to show that the appeal to tradition is not a viable argument.



It was more of a, "What does Oklahoma have to do with anything". I figured it was aimed towards Uminchu...it just really didn't make sense. Does Oklahoma have a history of cock fighting? I think that is more what I mean.

The Ahmish have the solution to global warming and have for years...but we still drive and use electricity? If we were just all Ahmish we would have to worry about global warming, oil shortages, pollution, rain forests be cleared, and plenty more. Alast, we do drive, we pollute, we cut down rain forests, and we have cock fights *snickering imaturaly*. Well...the states doesn't have them legally, but other places do.

That's just culture. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that see nothing wrong with it, just like there are plenty of people out there that see plenty of things wrong with it.

Yes, you did point out the fact that you proved that places that have decided that it is wrong and have changed it. Maybe he is saying that the Guam tradition is at a locked setting? I'm sure he isn't really implying that though and I think you know that as well but are just looking to ruffle feathers as you do and force me to once again prove I can't spell in my long winded rants.

I'm not sure why you couldn't catch that since my reply to him was right under his post.

Now this is just passively aggressively rude and insulting. Thought you were better than that. Did I deserve it for my question...I would like to say no at the risk of sounding self-rightous. And if you dare say it wasn't meant to be that way, I will only suggest that you be more careful in the way you phrase statements that can be taken out of context easily. :thumbup:

[Asshat]

Umi, I really can't believe you are going to say cockfighting will always be on Guam merely due to the argument of appeal to tradition. Come on. You know that just does not hold any water for the unknown future.

So we are talking long periods of time eh? I disagree that you place no relevance on the knowledge of a place having something to do with assertations of tradional values, or their longevity.

For if you do not understand the value or place of a tradition, how can you predict it's demise?

On the other hand, I feel comfortable saying the sun will burn all of it's hydrogen and gravity will force it's collapse, and the earth will die.

I will see the demise of either in my life time.

[DocTurtle]

will or will not?

[TheNoNamedOne]

So we are talking long periods of time eh? I disagree that you place no relevance on the knowledge of a place having something to do with assertations of tradional values, or their longevity.

I don't think I said that, did I? I think I replied that it was irrelevant to have to have lived there or somewhere in order to have enough knowledge to make an informed decision on it.

Surely people who lived in Michigan decades ago but had never gone to Georgia could come out and condemn the treatment of blacks there (from their news or educational services) and judge it wrong and declare that the appeal to tradition argument from southerners to keep segregation was not an adequate argument to preserve that and that in all probability, if that was there only argument in the face of activism, it would fail.

For if you do not understand the value or place of a tradition, how can you predict it's demise?

What is there to understand about the value and place of tradition in Guam as it concerns Cockfighting that would make me think that Guam has a time lock on cockfighting? Since you lived there, you should know it and therefore be able to explain it to me so that I would not be able to deny it or offer an argument that would or could possibly stand against it. I would love to hear it and would relish the challenge to have a wack at it with simple reasoning.

No need to go there, just as the Michiganer had no need to go to Georgia to declare against slavery and predict its fall.

On the other hand, I feel comfortable saying the sun will burn all of it's hydrogen and gravity will force it's collapse, and the earth will die.

lol. Good thing you don't have to go there to be able to say that, huh?

I will[not -- TP] see the demise of either in my life time.

Yeah, change takes time. Perhaps your grandchildren' grandchildren will see the demise of cockfighting on Guam on a sunny day. I would say that is a pretty good chance and one I would accept as the most probable and be somewhat satisfied with -- though I doubt I will be here to see it. But knowing it to be the better chance gives me some satisfaction.

Who knows, though? Perhaps it could happen sooner.

[TheNoNamedOne]

It was more of a, "What does Oklahoma have to do with anything". I figured it was aimed towards Uminchu...it just really didn't make sense. Does Oklahoma have a history of cock fighting? I think that is more what I mean.

Ok, I see what you mean. I took your comment as a dismissal of the example and not as a legitimate question.

The Ahmish have the solution to global warming and have for years...but we still drive and use electricity? If we were just all Ahmish we would have to worry about global warming, oil shortages, pollution, rain forests be cleared, and plenty more. Alast, we do drive, we pollute, we cut down rain forests, and we have cock fights *snickering imaturaly*. Well...the states doesn't have them legally, but other places do.

That's just culture. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that see nothing wrong with it, just like there are plenty of people out there that see plenty of things wrong with it.

Definitely! I don't thing I have denied that two groups of differing views exist -- hence the on-going targeting of one group's culture by the other in trying to wipe that aspect of it out. This world has never been a "live and let live" world. The status quo is always being rocked with newer ideas and younger generations. Within that activists have always been the tip of the spear.

Yes, you did point out the fact that you proved that places that have decided that it is wrong and have changed it. Maybe he is saying that the Guam tradition is at a locked setting? I'm sure he isn't really implying that though and I think you know that as well but are just looking to ruffle feathers as you do and force me to once again prove I can't spell in my long winded rants.

No, I'm not trying to rile you up, and I am not sure if Uminchu doesn't believe that Guam has a time lock on their culture of cockfighting. I have been basically saying they don't but he has been rather resistant to accepting that it could change.

Your spelling looks pretty good.

Now this is just passively aggressively rude and insulting. Thought you were better than that. Did I deserve it for my question...I would like to say no at the risk of sounding self-rightous. And if you dare say it wasn't meant to be that way, I will only suggest that you be more careful in the way you phrase statements that can be taken out of context easily. :thumbup:

I explained above that I took your comments to be dismissive, and perhaps that affected my tone a little. But, I also have to say that I actually did wonder why you were missing my point when my reply was right under Umi's.

But, I don't think either you or me will let this to cause us to latch onto one another as forum nemises(sp?) to one another.

[Fonze]

I can't wait to see some animal blood sports when i get back to the states:thumbup:

[Asshat]

As I was outside ripping the paws off of stray kittens, I was thinking how cool I am going to look when I go to Inarajan's (Guam) next fiesta and parade through the intoxicated celebrants with a sign that say's "No More Cock Fights!"

I'm thinking I better check that my socialized health care package is signed and authorized by a politician who is worth more money than I will see in a life time, and who doesn't have to participate in the plan.

Anyone care to join me?

Off-Topic: You do know AFN has been pushing the zoo laser extravaganza real hard? The collective gaijin memory here is exactly 2.9 years. What do you think? Get some digital cameras and build a new page with photos of tortured creatures? Call AFN and see if they air our concerns? Get the OOARS and Okipets folks involved as well? The later shows some pretty vivid photos of animals near the circle who are abused. They'd post the zoo photos.

This last paragraph should be a new thread perhaps. I just wonder though if boycotting the zoo will lead to reduced overhead, thus reduced care for the animals there.

[Fonze]

Are the lazers around the animal?

[Go-Shay]

As I was outside ripping the paws off of stray kittens, I was thinking how cool I am going to look when I go to Inarajan's (Guam) next fiesta and parade through the intoxicated celebrants with a sign that say's "No More Cock Fights!"

I'm thinking I better check that my socialized health care package is signed and authorized by a politician who is worth more money than I will see in a life time, and who doesn't have to participate in the plan.

Anyone care to join me?

Off-Topic: You do know AFN has been pushing the zoo laser extravaganza real hard? The collective gaijin memory here is exactly 2.9 years. What do you think? Get some digital cameras and build a new page with photos of tortured creatures? Call AFN and see if they air our concerns? Get the OOARS and Okipets folks involved as well? The later shows some pretty vivid photos of animals near the circle who are abused. They'd post the zoo photos.

This last paragraph should be a new thread perhaps. I just wonder though if boycotting the zoo will lead to reduced overhead, thus reduced care for the animals there.

welcome to my world

[TheNoNamedOne]

Vick's dog fighting legal problems are not over yet, despite washing pots and pans in prison making 12 cents an hour after having plead guilty on federal charges. In June he goes to court on state charges:

Blank, who signed Vick to a 10-year, $130 million contract in 2004, let it be known his former star is now making 12 cents an hour washing pots and pans (http://www.navycompass.com/modules.php?name=More_News&action=view&newsid=163). “The money is not quite the same and the records of the players are a bit different, too.” He also said Kevin Winston, the teams' senior director of player development, has visited Vick several times. Vick talks about what he has learned, lessons of life, and how he's going to come out a different person.

June 27th, Vick will be going to trial on state dog fighting charges in Virginia.

Hopefully prison has been setting him on the straight path to becoming a good citizen. While learning how to come out a new man, he has been able to play football with other convicts to keep his arm limber in hopes of a comeback.

The convict teams like him so much that he gets to play quertarback for both sides (hope he's not playing receiver position at night when the lights are out [pun intended]).

Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank was quoted as saying Michael Vick is playing football in prison to keep in shape, his arm limber and to pass the time. And, when the convicts are choosing up sides for a game in the yard, Vick has been a popular pick.

Whew...been a while since we've visited Vick's rags to riches to prison life drama. Just a stroll down memory lane.

[elgringoloco]

http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2 Fb382%2Fhurano%2Ficons%2Fkitty%2520pics%2Fbearcat. jpg&searchTerm=&pageOffset=

[Son Kokujin]

I still think it's amazing how far we'll go to give animals justice, but we can't seem to go that far for each other. Go fig.

[Tony Stacks]

I still think it's amazing how far we'll go to give animals justice, but we can't seem to go that far for each other. Go fig.

That's cuz humans aren't important.:rolleyes:

[TheNoNamedOne]

I still think it's amazing how far we'll go to give animals justice, but we can't seem to go that far for each other. Go fig.

huh? We go very far for humans, or at least strive to.

What percentage of animals ever get their day in court?

I think your view causing you amazement is maladjusted. Or is it just a case of hyperbole?

[Son Kokujin]

The statement reflects my own viewpoint... if we can devote a great deal of time, money, and effort to taking care of animals, I merely believe we should be putting the same amount of effort to ensure that our fellow humans survive...but, just as it is in the animal kingdom, everyone wants to be either the alpha male, matriarch, or top on the food chain. Such is the occurence of nature, I think...

[Maggie]

The statement reflects my own viewpoint... if we can devote a great deal of time, money, and effort to taking care of animals, I merely believe we should be putting the same amount of effort to ensure that our fellow humans survive...but, just as it is in the animal kingdom, everyone wants to be either the alpha male, matriarch, or top on the food chain. Such is the occurence of nature, I think...

As top of the food chain, and imbued with superior intelligence, we should be capable of showing care and consideration to both humans and animals.

Humans have a voice.

Animals don't.

Maggie :dead:

[Sex Wax]

As top of the food chain, and imbued with superior intelligence, we should be capable of showing care and consideration to both humans and animals.

Humans have a voice.

Animals don't.

Maggie :dead:

Right...dead on correct!....Humans are asking for help. Pleading even. I would rather give my last $5.oo or dinner to a starving person, than some fvcking baby seal. When, and not before, we are able to take care of ourselves, then you can afford the luxury of "saving a goat". So put forth some energy to see what is fvcked up with your "species" and not saving a RAT SOMEWHERE. BE HUMAN...YOU CAN SAVE A SEAL, BUT THE KILLER WHALE IS GONNA EAT IT! WHEN THE ANIMALS EAT SOYBURGERS AND NOT EACH OTHER, I'LL STOP EATING THEM!!!!!!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Looks like some people are scared of the Movement. You know your getting to them when they start blowing gaskets like we have seen a lot recently here.

[P_chan]

Looks like some people are scared of the Movement. You know your getting to them when they start blowing gaskets like we have seen a lot recently here.

Yes, we're shakin' in our boots:rolleyes:.

[TheNoNamedOne]

The statement reflects my own viewpoint... if we can devote a great deal of time, money, and effort to taking care of animals, I merely believe we should be putting the same amount of effort to ensure that our fellow humans survive...

Huh? As a whole humans get much more money, time, and effort in taking care of them than animals.

If we put the same amount of effort into human survival as we do animal, whoa -- then that would be very little effort and recourses per capita for each human.

[Doomrider]

I am all for animals killing each other in the wild. I am also for people hunting animals for food. (I.E Deer and turkey) This is just nature doing it's thing. Supplying predators with their source of nourishment.

I am against however gambling on animals fighting (I.E Cock fights or bull fighting) and trophy hunting.

[Doomrider]

Huh? As a whole humans get much more money, time, and effort in taking care of them than animals.

If we put the same amount of effort into human survival as we do animal, whoa -- then that would be very little effort and recourses per capita for each human.


The only issue is animals are not equal to humans no matter how much animal rights activists cry about it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

The only issue is animals are not equal to humans no matter how much animal rights activists cry about it.

Ah, I see you've gone from time, money, effort or recourses, to now just animals are not equal to humans. lol.

When the first point falls flat, abandon it and move on, eh? Better for pride than just conceding it or saying "fair enough."

[Doomrider]

Ah, I see you've gone from time, money, effort or recourses, to now just animals are not equal to humans. lol.

When the first point falls flat, abandon it and move on, eh? Better for pride than just conceding it or saying "fair enough."

What's up? I didn't say any of that. I just discussed how I do not like trophy hunting or cock fighting ect. You get your eyes checked recently?

[TheNoNamedOne]

What's up? I didn't say any of that. I just discussed how I do not like trophy hunting or cock fighting ect. You get your eyes checked recently?

Oops! Sorry about that, Doom. For some reason I just thought your post was from Son_Kokujin. My bad.

[Doomrider]

Oops! Sorry about that, Doom. For some reason I just thought your post was from Son_Kokujin. My bad.

It's ok man.

*totally non gay hugs you*

[Maggie]

Is that the one where the matadore repeatedly stabs the animal in the shoulders to infuriate it before finally killing it?

Don't tell the Chamorros how bad cock fighting is. On Guam, it's what they do, and has been considered a cultural event.

Actually, bullfighting is the sport where bulls are repeatedly stabbed in the neck muscles, so that the very brave Matador faces a worn out bull that can hardly raise it's head, due to carefully placed lances.:mad:

Maggie

[Maggie]

I still think it's amazing how far we'll go to give animals justice, but we can't seem to go that far for each other. Go fig.

That's a pretty damming sentence, but it's not a true one.

People who are uncaring, generally don't want to help people they don't know. It's easier for them to look the other way. But it's unlikely that they'd help an animal either.

People who stand up for animal rights almost never turn their back on people in need. All animal life is sacred, and people are animals.

Humanities actions toward people can't be used as an example of Animal Rights believers putting animals before people.

Compassion, morals and ethics are necessary for people to care about cruelty. Any cruelty.

Caring about animals takes nothing away from people. It's a shame it doesn't work the other way round.

Maggie :-|