To all of you that bitched about the Japanese Police and Sgt Hadnott [Archive]

Muku

03-26-2008, 09:26 PM

Muku - I don't remember a lot of finger pointing at the Japanese system, .
Taniqua I'm sorry but there were plenty of people complaining that the Japanese could hold him as long as they did with out charging him with any crime. Along with a few other things as well.

I am not going to go through all those threads to specifically bring examples here but they are there. I personally replied to numerous one's explaining about the system here and people bitching about "innocent" until proven guilty and "his" rights. There was plenty of that.

just a lot of gripes about the lockdown. US, Japanese, who cares, the guy is an idiot - he'll deserve what he gets under the UCMJ

Now that people arent locked down any more they quickly forget that he is still in custody and being held in jail. These people that complained so hard about whether or not he was guilty or not guilty have all disapeared.

Yet their "rights" are still being infringed upon because of the curfew.

You are right though why care, he ****** up, he should pay the price.

Yet where where they saying he should pay the price when he was in Japanese custody? There were also plenty that were singing halleluha when he was released, saying there was no evidence to keep him and the charges were BS.

If all that is true, then why is he still being held in jail?

Is it possible that the "rape" really happened? Is it possible that he "molested" that girl, that so many were willing to smear for withdrawing the charges against him?

Noone really give a shit about Hadnott nor the girl. All they care about is their own personal world. Which I guess is human nature.

Muku

03-26-2008, 09:27 PM

and the crooked one-sided media response!

Ammo....I suppose you have just as many problems then with the US media as well. Well at least some I would guess.

I Am Luna

03-26-2008, 09:34 PM

If all that is true, then why is he still being held in jail?
The Mayor ( along with other brainwashed people ) bitched like a kid when the lockdown was lifted. Think of how much they'll bitch if this guy was walking about again. You can't cause an international incident and just get off free, no. Defiantly not in the military. The military will take its time to build a good case against this man as so they don't goof it up like the JP with their nicely done cover-up.

Taniqua I'm sorry but there were plenty of people complaining that the Japanese could hold him as long as they did with out charging him with any crime. Along with a few other things as well.
Those people were just idiots and don't know the Japanese system well enough to complain. The JPs always do this. Would have been better to just list their names so we can point and laugh.

Ammoyankee

03-26-2008, 09:35 PM

I have a problem with all media, just think the ones here might be a tad bit worse.

martyman

03-27-2008, 12:23 AM

Hmm, lets see, conduct unbecoming of a SNCO? And also, if an article 134, anything else the military will decide that is not covered under the UCMJ.
Maybe a knee jerk re-action appease the local nationals?

State side, he would probably be marked as a Sex Offender and be placed in the Child Predator Registry.

Go figure.

Anyway, Hopefully things will settle down soon so the local economy can get back to normal. The Pimp story from the Chiba district sounds a bit more serious than the SSgt Hadnot story.

The One

03-27-2008, 10:45 AM

Well you know that the military doesn't have any witnesses of the crime committed. The only thing that he will say is that he tried to kiss her and that he didn't know her age. So lets see where the crime is committed.
He is a married man, so they could get for intent to commit adultry. Right (Note I am not a attorney or claim to know the legal system)
But there is not much they can get him for. Just like the Japanese the military can hold someone in the brig until charges are brougt against him. Article 134 will definitely be used but you better believe we will not hear anything about his punishment unless it is big and a couple years later. We will just hear say.

tanigua

03-27-2008, 10:08 PM

Taniqua I'm sorry but there were plenty of people complaining that the Japanese could hold him as long as they did with out charging him with any crime. Along with a few other things as well.

I am not going to go through all those threads to specifically bring examples here but they are there. I personally replied to numerous one's explaining about the system here and people bitching about "innocent" until proven guilty and "his" rights. There was plenty of that.[QUOTE=Muku;86296]

--Muku, I don't doubt you - it's just not something that stood out to me. I've been here long enough to know the Japanese system is what it is. Making comparisons to it and the US system is meaningless, so if that's what people were doing then I'm sure I ignored that sh*t.

[QUOTE=Muku;86296]Now that people arent locked down any more they quickly forget that he is still in custody and being held in jail. These people that complained so hard about whether or not he was guilty or not guilty have all disapeared.

Noone really give a shit about Hadnott nor the girl. All they care about is their own personal world. Which I guess is human nature.

Of course it's human nature. Nevertheless, he's guilty at least of being dumb as sh*t, and probably a few other things. The bottom line is we'll probably never know the entire story on any of this. So if there is any lesson to be learned it's don't be an IDIOT.

Zorro

04-26-2008, 01:02 PM

I dont think we can narrow everybody's initial screams and later silence to any one factor. There are so many things to be angry about with this case and so many reasons to forget about it too, and everybody is going to have their own idea which point is more important. Every point that has been raised in this thread is basically true, all at the same time.

Its true that Hadnott's supposed innocence was never as important to everyone compared things like how the case affected them, or even just a chance to rage at a supposed sex crime, or even just a general lack of faith in the J-legal system. And yeah, those things and others explain why people are silent about it now. (Of course, the media is silent too and that has an affect, as does the fact that its old news.) Sad tho. It would be nice if people were more serious about how other people get rammed through the legal system.

On a side note, IMHO, Hadnott's greatest stupidity was trying to trick a strange female into going to his place. The young woman's age (and yeah, at 14 she has passed puberty is not a child for Pete's sake) was not tattoed on the inside of her lip, so its quite possible he did not know. Further to that, the rape charges were dropped, and I suspect its because no rape occurred. And molestation? For going to far to get a kiss? Give me a break. Its not even like he brutalized her. I wasnt there, but it may well be they were sitting down and he just rolled on top of her for this kiss. Big deal.

His stupidity was in tricking her. That makes every other detail look that much worse. But, I bet he learned his lesson. If so, (and I hope they make sure as best as possible) I hope the guy is let go. He has been locked up a long time if it was just a detour and a kiss. But if he thinks he did no wrong that night, then keep him in the brig for all I care. He does need to smarten up.

vvloc

04-26-2008, 11:51 PM

The young woman's age (and yeah, at 14 she has passed puberty is not a child for Pete's sake) was not tattoed on the inside of her lip, so its quite possible he did not know.

If you're driving 80 kmh on a 40 kmh road, and you tell the policeman that you didn't know, then you don't deserve a ticket by such convoluted logic.

I wasnt there, but it may well be they were sitting down and he just rolled on top of her for this kiss. Big deal.

38 year old military person "and he just rolled over on top of her for this kiss. Big deal."

I sure hope that you are not military, because if you are, you sure have some perverted understanding of the words respect and honor (ESPECIALLY when in a foreign country, let alone your own!)

Zorro

04-29-2008, 06:38 PM

If you're driving 80 kmh on a 40 kmh road, and you tell the policeman that you didn't know, then you don't deserve a ticket by such convoluted logic.

And if all the speed limit signs are missing, then yeah, how can one know the speed limit? I say again, the young woman's age was not tatooed on the inside of her lip, or anywhere else for that matter.

I sure hope that you are not military, because if you are, you sure have some perverted understanding of the words respect and honor

First kisses are never easy. And its possible to use a little force without being brutal. Respect and honor dont really apply. They would if he was being brutal tho. They would if she protested and he continued anyway. I never read that he did.

Interestingly enough, I had get on top of my current GF for our first kiss. I did not brutalize her, but I did hold her down for a few seconds. Then I let her go. We have been dating six years now. I guess she will never forgive me and will date me forever out of revenge?

Believe me, I relish the day when I can just trade ID cards with women and say "Wanna bonk?" and honestly expect to get lucky. Until that day comes, these things can be a little messy. So I suggest some wiggle room.

But like I say, I wasnt there. If I at least had a video, I could make a judgment about whether he went too far or not. Maybe he did. But I am not taking a reporters word for it, and the side of the plaintiff has sure started to look fishy so I am not taking their word either. Hadnott is a giant dumba$$, so forget about his word. And the cops sure messed the whole thing up as far as I can tell. In short, I cant be expected to believe anybody, so I am not taking sides. We got no proof, and nobody is dead or injured as far anyone can tell, so I suggest moving on, right after shaping up the police force to deal with rape claims.

badkitty

04-29-2008, 07:18 PM

FYI... He is charged with:
Two counts of violating Article 120 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, specifically raping a child under the age of 16 and abusive sexual contact with a child under the age of 16. According the Manual for Court Martial the first charge carries a life sentence without the possibility of parole; the second carries a maximum 15-year prison sentence.

Also, he is charged with two violations of Article 134, specifically committing adultery and kidnapping. The adultery charge carries a maximum one-year prison sentence. The “kidnapping through inveigling” charge carries a maximum of life without parole.

Article 134 is a catch-all for unspecified crimes.

Hadnott also is charged with one count of making a false official statement, which carries a maximum five-year prison term.

Dude's ass is in a sling not matter what.. Justice served? Maybe.. More to come....

Zorro

04-29-2008, 09:12 PM

and abusive sexual contact with a child under the age of 16.

Isnt the rape charge enough? Geesh! I guess this is for in case the rape charge falls through, they can get him for the kiss. Is a kiss sexual contact now? I think my Grandma forced a kiss on me once or twice. I would call the authorities, but she is deceased.

The adultery charge carries a maximum one-year prison sentence.

Didnt the puritans just pass out scarlet letters? Unbelievable that in the 21st century, this can be a crime carrying a prison term, even in the military. No, ESPECIALLY in the military. Men, young and old, but especially young, shipped around the world for months and years and they are supposed to keep it in their pants because of a marriage or go to jail? Preposterous. Utterly totally and completely preposterous!

Hadnott also is charged with one count of making a false official statement

Any idea what that statement was?

vvloc

04-29-2008, 09:38 PM

The young woman's age (and yeah, at 14 she has passed puberty is not a child for Pete's sake) was not tattoed on the inside of her lip, so its quite possible he did not know

DOD Sexual Assault Reporting Options - Part 2 (Okinawa)

"Ensure a potential partner is of legal age. Ignorance is no excuse."

http://www.usmc-mccs.org/sapro/bestpractices.cfm?sid=ml&smid=8

Sex Wax

04-29-2008, 09:43 PM

"Contemplate this on the tree of woe.....Crucify him."
-Thulsa Doom Conan the Barbarian

http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/images/Switches/treeofwoe.jpg

Tony Stacks

04-29-2008, 09:44 PM

DOD Sexual Assault Reporting Options - Part 2 (Okinawa)

"Ensure a potential partner is of legal age. Ignorance is no excuse."

http://www.usmc-mccs.org/sapro/bestpractices.cfm?sid=ml&smid=8

How's this for a pick up line "hey baby let's go back to my place but 1st I need 2 forms of government issued picture ID":thumbup1:

Sex Wax

04-29-2008, 09:46 PM

How's this for a pick up line "hey baby let's go back to my place but 1st I need 2 forms of government issued picture ID":thumbup1:

http://www.clubfuji.com/Ash/No.jpg

Rossi46

04-29-2008, 11:06 PM

This gets me a might bother here at the hypocrisy.

People bitched and moaned their heads off about him being held by the Japanese police, yet now that he has been returned to US Military control nary a peep since his return.

Where is all the outrage now? He is in US military control, and not in the control of a "foreign" state. To all of you that proclaimed him innocent upon his release, why are you so suddenly quiet?

He has been in the hands of the military longer than he was in Japanese custody, and no mention of any charges or being released as of yet either.
Why are you who bitched before about the injustice not standing up for him, his rights, and his supposed innocence?

Go figure huh:rolleyes: Just like to point fingers at others and not your own, our own system.

I never really cared during or after he was in Japanese custody. He was bound to get slammed by one or the other. Most of us were pissed off because we were locked up/down based on his acquisitions at the time, guilty or not the lockdown was a attempt to smooth over the BS politic game Okinawa was playing with the US/Tokyo...Oh poor us having to deal with americans..kick em off and pay us Tokyo

vvloc

04-30-2008, 03:57 AM

"Ensure a potential partner is of legal age. Ignorance is no excuse."

I think I get it now. The rules and regs say "Ensure . . . legal age." Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting.

So the idea is you join, eh, and then you get to pick which rules and regs ya' wanna' comply with.

Ya' join and then heck, ya' just do whatever you want, regardless of DOD rules. Ah yes, it's all starting to make sense now.

DoctorP

04-30-2008, 04:20 AM

I think I get it now. The rules and regs say "Ensure . . . legal age." Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting.

So the idea is you join, eh, and then you get to pick which rules and regs ya' wanna' comply with.

Ya' join and then heck, ya' just do whatever you want, regardless of DOD rules. Ah yes, it's all starting to make sense now.

Are you really surprised vvloc? I see this daily:

Example #1: Regulations state that you are not allowed to PT while wearing headphones, ipod, mp3, or other such device...yet people do it daily.

Example #2: No driving of POV or Gov't vehicle while using cell phone...people do it anyway.

Example #3: Motorcyle riders are required by reg to wear a reflective vest and other protective equipment...once outside the gate they remove the vest, and sometimes the other equipment as well

...should I keep going?

vvloc

04-30-2008, 04:26 AM

Are you really surprised vvloc? I see this daily:

Example #1: Regulations state that you are not allowed to PT while wearing headphones, ipod, mp3, or other such device...yet people do it daily.

Example #2: No driving of POV or Gov't vehicle while using cell phone...people do it anyway.

Example #3: Motorcyle riders are required by reg to wear a reflective vest and other protective equipment...once outside the gate they remove the vest, and sometimes the other equipment as well

...should I keep going?

Nope, not really surprised. Just kinda' thought, hoped, y'all might pay more credence to the sexual codes with minors regs.

DoctorP

04-30-2008, 04:28 AM

Nope, not really surprised. Just kinda' thought, hoped, y'all might pay more credence to the sexual codes with minors regs.

Well...1st, I'm not one of "ya'll", so not sure why you put it that way.

2nd...if they can't follow the minor regs, it is easy to understand why they can't/won't follow the others.

Here I am actually agreeing with one of your posts, and yet I feel as though you are tossing mud at me anyway.

vvloc

04-30-2008, 04:36 AM

Well...1st, I'm not one of "ya'll", so not sure why you put it that way.

2nd...if they can't follow the minor regs, it is easy to understand why they can't/won't follow the others.

OK, I'll buy that, but still and all, it's very disappointing to know.

Here I am actually agreeing with one of your posts, and yet I feel as though you are tossing mud at me anyway.

Hey, you thanked one of the posts above - how am I supposed to recognize that you're agreeing with me? I'm not tossing mud at you. Guess I used the wrong form of ya'll again

P_chan

04-30-2008, 07:35 AM

Yes, because every single person follows every single rule, even in civilian life:rolleyes:. I'm not advocating rule breaking. But if you go though it with a fine tooth comb like vvloc is, then you'll notice everyone breaks some kind of rule every now and then.

Muku

04-30-2008, 08:41 AM

vvloc

04-30-2008, 08:48 AM

But if you go though it with a fine tooth comb like vvloc is, then you'll notice everyone breaks some kind of rule every now and then.

"Ensure a potential partner is of legal age. Ignorance is no excuse."

One rule, one circumstance - sex with minors. Fine tooth comb? What the heck are you talking about???

badkitty

04-30-2008, 08:57 AM

I have and NEVER will have relations with a minor. I don't even like to date guys younger than me...

Zorro

04-30-2008, 09:03 AM

DOD Sexual Assault Reporting Options - Part 2 (Okinawa)

"Ensure a potential partner is of legal age. Ignorance is no excuse."

Potential partner? Interesting choice of words that is. Some are saying no sex and certainly no rape occurred. But it seems he was interested, so there was potential.

And "ignorance is no excuse"? Well, isnt that just golden! Always makes me feel all high and mighty to bust people for something they cant possibly know for certain. Twice as fun to intentionally hide the facts and THEN bust them for it.

But hey, rather than cite us some regulations, how about do your bit for the world and give us some tips for ascertaining a woman's age with certainty while still keeping alive the potential for a happy ending. I am especially interested in how to do that when the young woman is actively trying to fool the guy, and/or lying to the guy. Providing realistic dialogue would be most appreciated.

Asshat

04-30-2008, 09:25 AM

But hey, rather than cite us some regulations, how about do your bit for the world and give us some tips for ascertaining a woman's age with certainty while still keeping alive the potential for a happy ending. I am especially interested in how to do that when the young woman is actively trying to fool the guy, and/or lying to the guy. Providing realistic dialogue would be most appreciated.

LMAO! True that. One important thing however is that she called her friends or family and she was distraut.

This thing keeps getting into the age argument, but with sexual maturity happening WAY before mental or legal maturity that point is moot. It is when a "potential partner" says "no" that the red light has to go on.

P_chan

04-30-2008, 10:09 AM

"Ensure a potential partner is of legal age. Ignorance is no excuse."

One rule, one circumstance - sex with minors. Fine tooth comb? What the heck are you talking about???

I'm talking about you implying that all the military, and ex military, people here are somehow saying that sex with minors (and breaking other regs) is ok.

Or did you forget you posted this:

I think I get it now. The rules and regs say "Ensure . . . legal age." Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting.

So the idea is you join, eh, and then you get to pick which rules and regs ya' wanna' comply with.

Ya' join and then heck, ya' just do whatever you want, regardless of DOD rules. Ah yes, it's all starting to make sense now.Condesending much? Or are you looking for a deeper meaning that's not there?

Oki0619

04-30-2008, 10:17 AM

Hmm, lets see, conduct unbecoming of a SNCO? .

No such thing

And to the OP- he is in pre trial confinement, If the Japanese Legal system does not care about it's citizens the US Military does. Is rape a problem in Japan- Yes? What is the Government doing about it? Very little as the people in power, the men have most likely raped someone or had a close friend do it. Thats why when there is a rape investigation they make the women go through all the BS of "show us how you were laying, show us where...." making them act it out again to re live a traumatic experience again.

Muku

04-30-2008, 10:18 AM

I have and NEVER will have relations with a minor.

I have......:-| Lot of fun it was too:thumbup: She was 16, sweeet too!:first:

Then again I was 16 too!

Zorro

04-30-2008, 10:29 AM

One important thing however is that she called her friends or family and she was distraut.

Yes, and it counts. But what also counts is that she could get to her cell phone. The question is, was it after a kiss or after a rape? There is an extreme lack of evidence, but I am inclined to believe it was after a kiss. If it is found that it was after a rape, then give me the key to his jail cell so that I can take it out to sea to drop it in the ocean.

It is when a "potential partner" says "no" that the red light has to go on.

Well, I dont think we expect instantaneous reaction to the word "no", and we can expect even slower reaction when the "no" is not spoken clearly. It seems to me a red light did go on in Hadnott's head and he ceased the kissing, let her up and let her call her friends. That is my best guess, simple and boring as it may be and the truth usually is, and, if true, is not worth throwing away a marine or a man's life over.

P_chan

04-30-2008, 10:39 AM

No such thing

And to the OP- he is in pre trial confinement, If the Japanese Legal system does not care about it's citizens the US Military does. Is rape a problem in Japan- Yes? What is the Government doing about it? Very little as the people in power, the men have most likely raped someone or had a close friend do it. Thats why when there is a rape investigation they make the women go through all the BS of "show us how you were laying, show us where...." making them act it out again to re live a traumatic experience again.

Why would you say the Japanese legal system doesn't care about it's citizens? Sure, they're not perfect, but who is?

Zorro

04-30-2008, 11:37 AM

Very little as the people in power, the men have most likely raped someone or had a close friend do it.

Was this in a dream you had? Did you see it in your crystal ball? Or will you just say anything for a chance to feel a sense of cultural superiority? I find your statement to be utter made-up nonsense, and you should be embarrassed that you ever posted that.

Thats why when there is a rape investigation they make the women go through all the BS of "show us how you were laying, show us where...." making them act it out again to re live a traumatic experience again.

Oddly enough, the police do the same thing with robberies, muggings, beatings, etc. etc. They just havent been clued in to the idea that rape is to be treated differently because many or most women are especially sensitive to reenactments of their own rape. (Never mind the resulting lack of evidence or inability to cross check stories or just using this simple method to spot a total liar.) And neither the police nor the hospitals are set up to deal with collecting rape evidence in timely manner. And I cannot emphasize strongly enough the point about the hospitals. You cant blame the police for the fact that you cant get a doctor for a rape exam late at night or on weekends in Japan. Heck, you cant get a doctor for a broken arm at those times.

In short, the whole thing has been bungled. And rather than make an example of the bunglers of the legal system, Hadnott is set to be made an extreme example for his minor stupidity, and I dont think its necessary nor will it be effective. In fact, I think the whole ordeal has just generated bad feelings and frustration for base residents that will in fact lead to more problems. Given all the things that happened after the Hadnott affair made the news, one could say that already happened.

I think it also generated doubt and mistrust in the legal system, as well it should. There are a great many things wrong here, including the fact that Hadnott is liable to be buried for indiscretions that might not be as severe as all that.

Zanpa

04-30-2008, 11:57 AM

if the events happened as you stated, that is an excellent post.

TheLastDon

04-30-2008, 12:02 PM

If you want to see how messed up the Japanese legal system is, check out this movie.

http://www.soreboku.jp/eng/

vvloc

04-30-2008, 12:40 PM

I'm talking about you implying that all the military, and ex military, people here are somehow saying that sex with minors (and breaking other regs) is ok.

Or did you forget you posted this:

Condesending much? Or are you looking for a deeper meaning that's not there?

Yes, I posted THIS: "Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting."

Comprehend much? I know reading is not your forte, but all and bunch are not synonyms.

Check BUNCH of poo on balcony, BUNCH of bleach, BUNCH of baloney. Then, maybe you'll have the slightest of clues (although I doubt it:rolleyes:)

Zorro

04-30-2008, 12:56 PM

Comprehend much? I know reading is not your forte, but all and bunch are not synonyms.

They become more similar when you consider the "here" that you overlooked in the same sentence.

P_chan said "all military HERE" (as in posting on this forum) and that is what any sensible person would assume you implied by your "bunch of military" statement, or at least close enough to it that it does not matter and isnt worth nit-picking.

Add that to you overlooking the fact it was you that brought up picking and choosing of regs to follow only to later chastise people for commenting based on that, and it appears you are not doing your cred any favors.

P_chan

04-30-2008, 01:22 PM

DougP

04-30-2008, 01:33 PM

Yes, I posted THIS: "Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting."

Comprehend much? I know reading is not your forte, but all and bunch are not synonyms.

Check BUNCH of poo on balcony, BUNCH of bleach, BUNCH of baloney. Then, maybe you'll have the slightest of clues (although I doubt it:rolleyes:)
I notice you posted "Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting." after two people replied. You posted the excerpt in post #30. Post #31 by SW seemed to be more random and not aimed at your post. The next two(#32,33) by TS and SW were obviously satirical responses to what you posted about "Ensure . . . legal age." After that came post # 34 by Rossi which was a reply to Muku and then you posted:
I think I get it now. The rules and regs say "Ensure . . . legal age." Then a bunch of military and ex-mil scoff at the posting.

So the idea is you join, eh, and then you get to pick which rules and regs ya' wanna' comply with.

Ya' join and then heck, ya' just do whatever you want, regardless of DOD rules. Ah yes, it's all starting to make sense now.

I was wondering if a bunch equals two people by your definition? Or if you were referring to another post that was scoffed at by a bunch of military and ex military.

Muku

04-30-2008, 01:47 PM

I think it also generated doubt and mistrust in the legal system, as well it should.
From which side are you assuming that it generated doubt and mistrust in the legal system here? From the girls side? From Hadnott's side? Or could you be making an assumption here about Japanese people themselves?

There are a great many things wrong here, including the fact that Hadnott is liable to be buried for indiscretions that might not be as severe as all that
To the Japanese he is no longer a suspect and was released. So here is another FACT for you.

If he does get buried for what he may or may not have done it will be on the US MILITARY's conscience and will have nothing to do with the Japanese system or people either.

That is also something I personally think that people here should be thinking about and remembering as well. The incident may have happened off base, however the Japanese according to their laws let it go.

Doesn't mean he was or is innocent, that is a different story altogether.

Bones

04-30-2008, 07:46 PM

As posted by Muku:

That is also something I personally think that people here should be thinking about and remembering as well. The incident may have happened off base, however the Japanese according to their laws let it go.

Doesn't mean he was or is innocent, that is a different story altogether.

The above statements that you've made are quite true. The host country may have dropped the charges, but this does not mean that the guy was innocent.

Something happened, which gained the attention of a lot of important people. Even Condy Rice got involved, as did a lot of high ranking military brass.

Let our legal system take care of deciding his future.

Bones

BTW:

I think that what he "allegedly" did was wrong, and the "I thought that she was older", thing doesn't wash with me.:thumbdown:

Zorro

04-30-2008, 08:51 PM

From which side are you assuming that it generated doubt and mistrust in the legal system here? From the girls side? From Hadnott's side? Or could you be making an assumption here about Japanese people themselves?

All of the above. When the authorities fail to gather the necessary evidence and act with a lack of it, they mess everybody up. The Japanese authorties could have either gathered enough evidence to make it clear that sex did not occur, sparing Hadnott a lot of heart-ache. The whole thing might have blown over quickly if so. Or, they could have made it clear that sex did occur, which might have lead to the plaintiff pursuing her case to the end. But I think it is us foreigners that have garnered the most mistrust in the J-legal system from this. People using the case to attack the bases certainly did not help either. And POOF the case just vanishes.

And now we have the deal with the military system. I find their approach to be totally unfair and ridiculous. They have no proof and not even a victim pressing charges or providing evidence. They got nothing. Yet Hadnott is awaiting trial, and on some charges that are totally preposterous as has been pointed out. What trial could they possibly cobble together that makes any sense? If that does not sour one's faith in the military legal system, what will?

Doesn't mean he was or is innocent, that is a different story altogether.

True true. But even if guilty as sin of all serious charges, we got nothing but guesswork. Its not good enough.

Bones

04-30-2008, 09:25 PM

As posted by Zorro:

And now we have the deal with the military system. I find their approach to be totally unfair and ridiculous. They have no proof and not even a victim pressing charges or providing evidence. They got nothing. Yet Hadnott is awaiting trial, and on some charges that are totally preposterous as has been pointed out. What trial could they possibly cobble together that makes any sense? If that does not sour one's faith in the military legal system, what will?

The idea that they had the proof, and did not pursue it might be lost on you. Perhaps the family was confronted with a financial issue, that they did not want to admit to in a court of law. Perhaps the daughter went with this guy, just to be able to buy a new phone, or I-pod, or whatever?

The fact remains, he admitted to a lot of the acts that he was accused of. Rape? Perhaps not. But he did admit to some of the other charges. Touching, feeling, kissing, etc....

Perhaps local Prosecutors felt that he had a higher chance of being convicted, by our side.

Either way, he would not have found himself in the current situation without having done something that requires confinement.

Bones

Muku

05-01-2008, 05:57 AM

When the authorities fail to gather the necessary evidence and act with a lack of it, they mess everybody up. The Japanese authorties could have either gathered enough evidence to make it clear that sex did not occur, sparing Hadnott a lot of heart-ache. .
Sounds to me like you watch a lot of cop shows from the states. There is an assumption again on your part, that the police here didnt gather any evidence. I think you fail to realize that this is Japan, and that is the number one thing you need to think about when making statements like this. You also sound to me like you are basing your comments upon US law and not Japanese law.

And now we have the deal with the military system. I find their approach to be totally unfair and ridiculous. They have no proof and not even a victim pressing charges or providing evidence. They got nothing.
No we dont have to deal with shit, Hadnott does. He put himself into this situation and all you and I have to do is sit back and enjoy the ride.

Show me they got nothing. You cant either because I think you are forgetting a few things about the case as well.

All of the above.
I want to know where you have any idea or information that the Japanese have lost faith in their system because of this case.

I think it is you that have lost faith, oh well, personally I dont think it's that big of a deal.

Hindsight is 20/20 and it is never safe to make assumptions about an entire country of people or generalize about how they are affected from such an isolated case as this one.

Ammoyankee

05-01-2008, 11:33 AM

I just wish they would release everything they found out...

Zorro

05-01-2008, 05:01 PM

Sounds to me like you watch a lot of cop shows from the states.

What that has to with anything, I have no idea. Sounds to me like you just wanted to take a random swipe at me.

Admittedly, I did mess something up. It cant be proven by rape exam if sex occurred. However, the finding of things like DNA evidence in certain places is big evidence. Did not read that they had or even tried.

There is an assumption again on your part, that the police here didnt gather any evidence. I think you fail to realize that this is Japan, and that is the number one thing you need to think about when making statements like this.

Off base again. In fact, I have heard of J-police not gathering evidence or botching it SOOO many times, its why I think its likely they didnt in this case either. I heard the alleged assault happened in Hadnott's car. And I heard some things concerning the car which also makes me think they failed to inspect it for evidence. Cant remember specifics at this time, sorry. But I dont think we need Columbo to think of examining the scene of the crime for evidence.

You also sound to me like you are basing your comments upon US law and not Japanese law.

Huh? Care to elaborate? What did I say to give you that idea? I dont think I went into near enough detail to think that.

No we dont have to deal with shit, Hadnott does.

Can you spot the difference?

1. We have to deal with...
2. We have the deal with...

I wrote one, but not the other.

Show me they got nothing.

How about they got nothing as far as I can see? I have heard nothing about physical evidence. Have you? Have not heard much besides, just two stories.

Or perhaps they got nothing serious? The kidnapping charge might stick and make sense sticking, but it seems pretty overwrought to me. Hadnott was dumb for not taking her straight home as he said he would. But calling that kidnapping? Seems a stretch. And he has already served enough time for it anyway.

I want to know where you have any idea or information that the Japanese have lost faith in their system because of this case.

How could I? All we have is our guesses as far as that is concerned. If we go back to the original post, it says "I think" as well as "a lot" (not an entire country), so give me a break. I also said its had more effect on us foreigners than the Japanese. But the case has had nationwide attention unlike so many others, and look how it ended up. POOF! Gone. Just gone.

I think it is you that have lost faith

Yeah, and this case is just another nail in the coffin of my faith in the J-legal system and its "authorities".

Zorro

05-01-2008, 05:10 PM

The idea that they had the proof, and did not pursue it might be lost on you.

Not at all. Its just that based I what I know from living here, I have presented the possibility that I find most likely. Of course, this is also possible, and the J-police might submit the evidence to the military prosecutors.

But he did admit to some of the other charges. Touching, feeling, kissing, etc....

Those are not charges. And none are illegal in and of themselves but require other circumstances which he most certainly did not admit to.

Perhaps local Prosecutors felt that he had a higher chance of being convicted, by our side.

I dont think the military recognizes double jeopardy in such cases, so nothing to lose by trying the J-courts first.

Either way, he would not have found himself in the current situation without having done something that requires confinement.

Yeah, all people awaiting trial are guilty of SOMETHING. Keep telling yourself that.

Muku

05-01-2008, 05:44 PM

It cant be proven by rape exam if sex occurred. However, the finding of things like DNA evidence in certain places is big evidence. Did not read that they had or even tried.

Hmmm...do you know for a fact that it is or is not common practice here in Japan to take such evidence in the case of an underage girl claiming rape.

Have you read about other rape cases here? It might help you to understand that the methods of investigation here in rape cases is much different than what you think should or should not be done.

Off base again. In fact, I have heard of J-police not gathering evidence or botching it SOOO many times, its why I think its likely they didnt in this case either. I heard the alleged assault happened in Hadnott's car. And I heard some things concerning the car which also makes me think they failed to inspect it for evidence. Cant remember specifics at this time, sorry. But I dont think we need Columbo to think of examining the scene of the crime for evidence.

Off base? Just because you havent heard about doesnt mean it happened or for that matter did not happen with regards to gathering of evidence. Your statements here are based on heresay only. You heard the assault may have allegedly happened in the car, however unless you were there you dont know, and neither do I as well. He also had her at his house and she attempted to flee from there as well. At least if the papers can be trusted in their reporting. Once again you sound as if you are basing your comments and assumptions upon heresay evidence and not fact.

Huh? Care to elaborate? What did I say to give you that idea? I dont think I went into near enough detail to think that.

Fact...if the complaint is dropped in a rape case here, the police and prosecutors can not force the prosecution even if they have the evidence. That is Japanese law as far as it has been reported. In the states it is also a fact that the police can and do continue the prosecution in rape cases even when the victim in the case is unwilling to prosecute. Huge difference.

How about they got nothing as far as I can see? I have heard nothing about physical evidence. Have you? Have not heard much besides, just two stories.
Ah but here is where you miss the important thing; Hadnott has reportedly admitted that he attempted to kiss this girl, seeing as how she is underage at the minimum that is simple assault.

How could I? All we have is our guesses as far as that is concerned
Why the switch from "I" to "we" here? You made the statement not me. Also it is not a "national" case anymore, in fact it is very local.

Yeah, and this case is just another nail in the coffin of my faith in the J-legal system and its "authorities".
Think again......

Those are not charges. And none are illegal in and of themselves but require other circumstances which he most certainly did not admit to.

You are playing with sematics here, refer to my earlier reply about the attempt at kissing her. Which he has evidently certainly admitted to.

Zorro

05-01-2008, 07:06 PM

Hmmm...do you know for a fact that it is or is not common practice here in Japan to take such evidence in the case of an underage girl claiming rape.

I did not say it was or it wasnt. I said I have read that they often dont, therefore, I have little faith that they did here.

It might help you to understand that the methods of investigation here in rape cases is much different than what you think should or should not be done.

Enlighten me.

Just because you havent heard about doesnt mean it happened or for that matter did not happen with regards to gathering of evidence.

No kidding. But if you follow my posts, you would gather that I am NOT saying that it did not happen, I am saying I DONT THINK it did. All I can do is go off of past experience, unless someone wants to link me up the facts of this case.

Once again you sound as if you are basing your comments and assumptions upon heresay evidence and not fact.

I am, and I have never said I wasnt. All we can do is guess at so much of this.

At least if the papers can be trusted in their reporting.

LO freaking L! Thanks for the laugh!

Fact...if the complaint is dropped in a rape case here, the police and prosecutors can not force the prosecution even if they have the evidence.

I know, and I never said anything against it. What I said was that had the initial investigation been properly done (and yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion it wasnt and nothing else) then the case would not have been dropped by the accuser. I am not really buying the "just wanna be left alone bit", and this is probably the least of the reasons why.

Ah but here is where you miss the important thing; Hadnott has reportedly admitted that he attempted to kiss this girl, seeing as how she is underage at the minimum that is simple assault.

Actually, HE DID kiss her. Technically, IT IS assault and age doesnt matter. But if we are going to jail everyone for this, then the jails better be expanded to accomodate 50 percent of the world's population. If there was no real brutality and it was not a perfect stranger, the charge is ridiculous. But if he did hurt her in the process or slam her down or whatever, I hope he is found guilty of assault. I cant say either way, but I feel compelled to point out that both are possible.

Why the switch from "I" to "we" here?

Because each and every one of us can only guess at half of this, me, you, everybody who has no access to docs. And you are not exactly filling in the gaps with facts, but merely telling me what I am saying are not facts. I already knew.

Also it is not a "national" case anymore, in fact it is very local.

Exactly. This case was really being pushed from above. Now look at it. It does not inspire faith. The politicos should have known to look at this with suspicion from the get go. I did.

You are playing with sematics here, refer to my earlier reply about the attempt at kissing her. Which he has evidently certainly admitted to.

Semantics? No. He admitted to forcing a kiss on a young female. He says he did not know she was underage. Even if she was, so what? Its a kiss. Its not sexual contact as far as I know. And it is possible to use force without being rough and brutal. People do it all the time.

OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand

05-01-2008, 07:48 PM

Its a kiss. Its not sexual contact as far as I know, and as I said earlier, my Grandma forced a couple on me. So what?

I dunno Zo, not everyone gets hickies from granny... :barf:

P_chan

05-01-2008, 07:57 PM

Right.....I'm sure all he gave her was a granny kiss:rolleyes:

Muku

05-01-2008, 08:09 PM

Semantics? No. He admitted to forcing a kiss on a young female. He says he did not know she was underage. Even if she was, so what? Its a kiss. Its not sexual contact as far as I know, and as I said earlier, my Grandma forced a couple on me. So what?
However forcing a kiss, or touching someone that doesnt want to be touched, Chikan 痴漢 or molester pops into mind are 100% against the law. That is whether you choose to agree or not a type of sexual contact. Sexual contact is not limited to the act of sex alone.

Let's take a look at another thing here about his knowledge or not of her age. He is married to a Japanese woman, although they are separated if again the press is to be believed, and he evidently had at the minimum a rudimentary knowledge of Japanese, and from my position of having over 2 decades of experience of living here it is highly unlikely in my opinion that he could NOT have felt that she was NOT over the age of 20.

I find it ludicrous that you would equal a kiss from your grandmother to a guy on his motorcycle looking to pick up a young piece on Gate Two Street. I can not believe that anyone would even attempt to make the same case. But since you wrote this I guess it needs to be pointed out to you that a kiss from "grandma" is love, in his case it's about getting his rocks off in the attempt. :thumbdown:

know, and I never said anything against it. What I said was that had the initial investigation been properly done (and yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion it wasnt and nothing else) then the case would not have been dropped by the accuser. I am not really buying the "just wanna be left alone bit", and this is probably the least of the reasons why.

Sorry but your inferences are that the police didnt do their jobs in this case and there is absolutely no evidence either way to know whether they did or didnt and to assume either way is wrong.

Japan has a nasty history of not properly investigating a rape, at least in standards that are accepted in the west. However I also feel you are not taking into account the culture and the families request to drop the case for what ever reason they had.

Exactly. This case was really being pushed from above. Now look at it. It does not inspire faith. The politicos should have known to look at this with suspicion from the get go. I did.

You know what I really dont care, I have very little patience with a guy trying to pickup an underage girl, particularly when he is 38 years old. To me that is the same as being a pedophile. I dont care about the politics of the situation either, he made the error of judgement and in my opinion should fry for it.

Semantics? No. He admitted to forcing a kiss on a young female. He says he did not know she was underage. Even if she was, so what? Its a kiss. Its not sexual contact as far as I know. And it is possible to use force without being rough and brutal. People do it all the time.
Really?? People can use force without it being rough? It might not be physical but it sure the hell makes it physcological at least and that in its own way is even worse, because it leaves scars in places noone can see. And to use your argument as a justification, "that people do it all the time" doesnt make it right either.

hankypanky

05-01-2008, 08:21 PM

Really?? People can use force without it being rough? It might not be physical but it sure the hell makes it physcological at least and that in its own way is even worse, because it leaves scars in places noone can see. And to use your argument as a justification, "that people do it all the time" doesnt make it right either.[/QUOTE]

sounds like Deliverance, "SQUEAL LIKE A PIG"!:D

P_chan

05-01-2008, 10:20 PM

sounds like Deliverance, "SQUEAL LIKE A PIG"!:D

I could have gone without being reminded of that part of the movie:barf:

Sex Wax

05-02-2008, 04:19 AM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. only I say: """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" chip chip chip farley farley farley HA>>>>>>>FARRRRRRRRRRR

Oki0619

05-02-2008, 08:53 AM

Ammoyankee

05-02-2008, 01:27 PM

I could have gone without being reminded of that part of the movie:barf:

Bad memories for you P??? Does Muku tend to wear bib overalls alot when he comes to visit??:w00t:

Zorro

05-02-2008, 02:16 PM

Sexual contact is not limited to the act of sex alone.

Is kissing sexual contact?

he could NOT have felt that she was NOT over the age of 20.

I asked another before, and now I ask you. How exactly do you ascertain the age of a young woman and keep the potential for dating alive?

What is the age of consent in Okinawa and how does it apply to kissing?

Sorry but your inferences are that the police didnt do their jobs in this case and there is absolutely no evidence either way to know whether they did or didnt and to assume either way is wrong.

I will assume as I please, thank you very much. So long as I dont state it as fact, it is my right. Now back off.

But if you got the details I am forced to guess at, please post them.

However I also feel you are not taking into account the culture and the families request to drop the case for what ever reason they had.

I indicated I thought they had other reasons for withdrawing the complaint, did I not? That should indicate to you that I AM taking it into account.

Really?? People can use force without it being rough? It might not be physical but it sure the hell makes it physcological at least and that in its own way is even worse, because it leaves scars in places noone can see. And to use your argument as a justification, "that people do it all the time" doesnt make it right either.

Now you are journeying into the realm of hypersensitivity. This young woman just got off the back of this guy's cycle, a place she sat willingly. If a little forced kiss is going to leave lifelong scars, then we better keep her out of school lest a gym coach yell at her.

And before you go forgetting things I have already said to nitpick what I just said, if he did brutalize her then give me the key to his cell so I can drop it in the Marianas Trench.

Now, here is an example of using force without being rough: I pulled a kids head out of approaching traffic as he was trying to recover his dropped frog. Did I use force? Yes. Was I rough? No.

Zorro

05-02-2008, 02:25 PM

For all of you who think Hadnott is a great guy or you are trying to justify his actions, he is still married and is wife was living near Iwakuni where she was from. He was trying to get orders up there to be near her, all the while trying to bang anything that moved down here.

I really dont give a crap about his marital status. Sleeping with other women besides one's wife DOES NOT make a person the opposite of nice. It is in fact quite possible to sleep with A LOT of women and still be a nice guy. History is CHOCK FULL of nice guys who had affairs. Barbara Walters just admitted to having an affair with a nice guy Senator back in the 70s. Not a bad thing to say about him. NEXT!

Zorro

05-02-2008, 02:31 PM

they should give everyone who was affected by the lockdown 30 seconds to slap the hell out of that HADNOTTanounceofdiscipline.

It was not Hadnott's brilliant idea to punish a whole base for the mistake of one marine, was it? If you dont slap the right people, its just going to happen again.

Zorro

05-02-2008, 02:44 PM

However forcing a kiss, or touching someone that doesnt want to be touched,....are 100% against the law.

Yes, they are, technically, against the law, as it is written. But guess what? Judges throw these things out of court all the time. That is because, living in the real world, these things happen. Kids do them, and yes, sometimes even adults. A judge will make a judgment call. He will consider things like how much force was used, how long the contact lasted, how much the alleged victim resisted (ie indicators that the touching was unwanted), what parts were touched, and what kind of relationship, if any, were present between alleged victim and alleged perp.

So no, they are not 100 percent against the law, as it is applied, and rightly so. Going by the letter of the law would be ridiculous.

Muku

05-02-2008, 03:20 PM

Yes, they are, technically, against the law, as it is written. But guess what? Judges throw these things out of court all the time. That is because, living in the real world, these things happen. Kids do them, and yes, sometimes even adults. A judge will make a judgment call. He will consider things like how much force was used, how long the contact lasted, how much the alleged victim resisted (ie indicators that the touching was unwanted), what parts were touched, and what kind of relationship, if any, were present between alleged victim and alleged perp.

So no, they are not 100 percent against the law, as it is applied, and rightly so. Going by the letter of the law would be ridiculous.
Here? What country? Technically or otherwise against the law is against the law, just because you dont like the law doesnt change it otherwise and it doesnt make it ridiculous either.

I really dont give a crap about his marital status.
The Marine Corp does.

Is kissing sexual contact?
Is it not?:rolleyes:

I will assume as I please, thank you very much. So long as I dont state it as fact, it is my right. Now back off.

Back off?? Kitchen getting a little to hot for you? Now what in the world are you going to do? :rolleyes: You want to make assumptions, fine, but you know what that means I guess. You wrote it not me. However I will say thanks for confirming it.

If a little forced kiss is going to leave lifelong scars, then we better keep her out of school lest a gym coach yell at her..
However if you were the judge there wouldnt be anyone in jail in the first place. Once again your analogies come across as the nightshade of a large overfed ox. :rolleyes:

Now, here is an example of using force without being rough: I pulled a kids head out of approaching traffic as he was trying to recover his dropped frog. Did I use force? Yes. Was I rough? No
How do you know if you were rough or not? You dont think you were however you cant look into the kid's mind and relate what he is thinking.

Just as Hadnott trying to get a kiss from the girl as well. Dont know how the girl took it, yet she did cry rape and now he is charged with it as well. Hmmm just have to wait and see what happens now wont we.

Sadly enough, to me anyway, you come across as a guy that wouldnt take no for an answer from a girl if she told you to stop. It also sounds to me that you would think that pushing it a bit, to get a kiss, maybe hoping for more, would be fine and nothing wrong with it.

Just like it seems that Hadnott did as well.

Zorro

05-02-2008, 04:35 PM

Here? What country?

Well, I am less sure about how the J courts would deal with it. I have heard they are more strict about the letter of the law. But even then, I doubt they are that strict. Main reason being, in over a decade of living here, I NEVER heard of someone getting jailed for a forced kiss. Have you?

Technically or otherwise against the law is against the law, just because you dont like the law doesnt change it otherwise and it doesnt make it ridiculous either.

My God man! Must you just continue to stir the $#!T pot? I never said anything about what I like or dont like. I told you how things work in a court of law. If they did not work that way, justice would be real swift and real stupid.

Back off?? Kitchen getting a little to hot for you?

Not at all. What is happening is that you are pissing me off by wasting my time. I have said umpteen times in this thread that when I use words like "I think" or "I guess" or "I believe" that means the following is not be taken as strict fact. And I have to guess and assume a lot because neither the newspapers nor YOU are providing me with any new details to add to the few I know. Now will you please figure that out? Pretty please?

Is it not?

I believe it is not Socrates. Your turn to answer. You left some other non-rhetoric questions unanswered as well. BTW "I dont know" is an answer. Please be big enough to admit it if so.

How do you know if you were rough or not? You dont think you were however you cant look into the kid's mind and relate what he is thinking.

No one can. That is why we do our best. And a judge determines whether we did or not if it makes it to court. And hopefully the judge will have plenty of evidence to deal with. But just because one person feels it was rough does not make it rough. There are some hypersensitive people in the world, and bending everyone to their sensibilities would be insane.

Just as Hadnott trying to get a kiss from the girl as well. Dont know how the girl took it, yet she did cry rape and now he is charged with it as well. Hmmm just have to wait and see what happens now wont we.

Yeah we will. And this is what I have been saying all along. I have just been presenting other possibilities to things people have gotten overly sure of. The meaning of force for example.

Sadly enough, to me anyway, you come across as a guy that wouldnt take no for an answer from a girl if she told you to stop. It also sounds to me that you would think that pushing it a bit, to get a kiss, maybe hoping for more, would be fine and nothing wrong with it.

Fact is, I do take no for an answer and have taken no for an answer many times. If Hadnott did not rape, then he took no for an answer as far as sex is concerned. Seems he did not knock any teeth out getting a kiss either (Note the word "seems")

It also sounds to me that you would think that pushing it a bit, to get a kiss,

You dont have to guess about that. All you have to do is start doing something you refuse to do, and that is to REVIEW THE THREAD.

maybe hoping for more, would be fine and nothing wrong with it.

Hoping for more? Not sure what you mean by that. If its trying to get something like a feel despite her not wanting to give, then you are wrong. My goal is always to get the girl to want me, and date with me for a while, willingly. I just accept that society has set up the situation that some pushing is necessary. Society has packed women's head FULL of inhibition, and put their natural coyness on regular steroids. Couple that with sex and dating not happening anywhere on a frequency it should, and you got some major barriers to overcome. If you wait around for all the easy kills, you are setting yourself up to be one frustrated SOB. No thanks. I toe the line, I know. But I am always mindful of the feelings of the girl I am with. I know when to back off. I know when to apologize. Nobody has ever tearfully placed a call to her friends, but I cant say it was outside the realm of possibility. I surprised one young lady one time. All that touched her were my lips tho.

Feel free to play it safe and head for the hills at the slightest bit of resistance if you like. I dont. Many guys dont. And its not our fault the world is that way. And the law has not fixed it.

Just like it seems that Hadnott did as well.

Yup. He said as much himself. The question is whether it can be fairly determined if he went too far, and its possible that he didnt. Without the alleged victim, I dont think its possible to fairly judge.

Muku

05-02-2008, 05:18 PM

I NEVER heard of someone getting jailed for a forced kiss. Have you?

Of an underage teenage girl? Btw, yes I have. It was a molester as well.

My God man! Must you just continue to stir the $#!T pot? I never said anything about what I like or dont like. I told you how things work in a court of law. If they did not work that way, justice would be real swift and real stupid.
So you are telling me how things work in a court of law here in Japan? I dont think so. And fyi you are the one stirring the pot making the analogies that you have.

No one can. That is why we do our best.
However you are the one that make the statement that you were not rough. I merely pointed out to you that it is you that thought so, and speaking from experience here there are a number of times where I thought that I was being gentle with someone however it wasnt that way to the person that I was assisting.

Your turn to answer. You left some other non-rhetoric questions unanswered as well. BTW "I dont know" is an answer. Please be big enough to admit it if so.

Excuse me? I have made my point very clear on this, go back and read my replies. I recall that you made the analogy that forcing a kiss was the same as getting one from your grandma, I, to refresh your memory here replied....

However forcing a kiss, or touching someone that doesnt want to be touched, Chikan 痴漢 or molester pops into mind are 100% against the law. That is whether you choose to agree or not a type of sexual contact. Sexual contact is not limited to the act of sex alone.

If Hadnott did not rape, then he took no for an answer as far as sex is concerned. Seems he did not knock any teeth out getting a kiss either (Note the word "seems")

However you nor I for that matter know if he did or didnt "knock out any teeth" in the process. He has now been charged now twice with rape, and fortunately the MC can prosecute this case with or without the consent of the victim here.

Oh I dont say alleged because she is a victim. A victim of a 38 year old man acting as a predator to an underage Japanese female. Notice the word Japanese, because that explains something else as well.

What is happening is that you are pissing me off by wasting my time
So, if it bothers you so much and wastes so much of your time why do you reply? :rolleyes:

Oh I really couldnt care one iota either.

vvloc

05-02-2008, 05:26 PM

The question is whether it can be fairly determined if he went too far, and its possible that he didnt.

You have lived here a decade, and you say Muku is pissing you off by wasting your time.

All the police reports indicate that Japanese police said Hadnott had admitted to investigators he forced the girl down and kissed her.

You have already tried to justify this as being no big deal.

You have wiggled, squirmed, and twisted your words (and those of others).

You are truly truly sick, man. Denial is not a river in Egypt - it is the loose flow of drivel running through your mind on to these pages that people have been remarkably patient in putting up with.

TheNoNamedOne

05-02-2008, 05:30 PM

You are truly truly sick, man. .

Please refrain from name-calling. -- TP

Crazysix

05-02-2008, 06:12 PM

All the police reports indicate that Japanese police said Hadnott had admitted to investigators he forced the girl down and kissed her.

I agree with vvloc, Hadnott is scum but the only thng I want to know were these confessions of his own free will or coerced , if it were the latter then the case should be investigated by afresh set of eyes, taking all claims in account then, rechecking themfor validity. If you are gonna hang him at least have all the facts before hand.

vvloc

05-02-2008, 06:18 PM

I am oft accused of being overly verbose (and sometimes that accustion is quite justified), but I have to admit to being truly shocked and at a complete loss for words.

Zorro

05-02-2008, 06:37 PM

So, if it bothers you so much and wastes so much of your time why do you reply?

Oh I really couldnt care one iota either.

Your last post took the cake. More sad avoidance of direct questions. Mixing things up that are not related. Twisting my words. I am just trying to discuss and present some very real possibilities. You are not listening and just arguing to argue.

Goodbye.

Zorro

05-02-2008, 06:51 PM

You have already tried to justify this as being no big deal.

No I havent. I have presented a possible scenerio where it is no big deal. There are other possible scenerios where it is a huge deal. I deny none of them, and have offered to give his cell key to Davy Jones if true. But you deny the one scenerio that is not so bad. Why?

You have wiggled, squirmed, and twisted your words (and those of others).

I have presented and tried to answer some tough questions most people just want to avoid. Especially the point about force not needing to be rough or malicious, but as soon as people hear the word force, they assume rough and malicious anyway. With the Grandma example and the boy by the road example, I have shown how force can be extremely benign.

Some things may appear like wiggling and squirming to you. I dont think I can change your mind on those. But twisting words? Please show me an example. Come on, it cant be that tough.

TheNoNamedOne

05-02-2008, 06:57 PM

You are thick and deaf and just arguing to argue.

Please refrain from name-calling. -- TP

Muku

05-02-2008, 07:15 PM

I have presented and tried to answer some tough questions most people just want to avoid. Especially the point about force not needing to be rough or malicious, but as soon as people hear the word force, they assume rough and malicious anyway. With the Grandma example and the boy by the road example, I have shown how force can be extremely benign.

Tough questions? Where? These are not tough questions they are easy.

You however have failed to recognize that your examples dont carry water in the context that you have given them.

Also they have been tossed back at you purely for the reason that you can not possibly know what is going through another persons mind no matter how much you would care to believe otherwise.

Your last post took the cake. More sad avoidance of direct questions. Mixing things up that are not related. Twisting my words. I am just trying to discuss and present some very real possibilities. You are not listening and just arguing to argue.

Thanks for the cake:thumbup: I am not the one arguing here, for that I suggest taking a look here.....

http://www.consciousexistence.com/family/mirror.gif

P_chan

05-02-2008, 07:38 PM

I was attempting to read back though this thread.....but I just said phuket.

Looks like muku has a new best friend!:first:

vvloc

05-02-2008, 07:48 PM

vvloc "You have already tried to justify this as being no big deal."

No I havent.

But twisting words? Please show me an example. Come on, it cant be that tough.

Are these your words from post #25?

"I wasnt there, but it may well be they were sitting down and he just rolled on top of her for this kiss. Big deal."

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99274&postcount=25

Now if the point of you staying here (after you've already said goodbye) and continuing to argue an unarguable point, which is that a 38 year old military person "rolled on top of" a 14 year old "for this kiss" is no big deal, than you would save everyone much time by just honoring your farewell message.

Muku

05-02-2008, 09:15 PM

P I will send you a "copy" TP is in his "selective" mode tonight.:rolleyes:

TheNoNamedOne

05-02-2008, 09:54 PM

I am just trying to discuss and present some very real possibilities.

Goodbye.

I think you have posted some real possibilities, and many are just not willing to listen. Furthermore, you have stated that you are the first to throw away the key to his cell if in fact he is guilty in the fullest sense of what is being said. You are putting forth the points of caution, which is prudent when a person's whole life is at stake.

As for your "Goodbye", Zorro, don't let the others corral you into thinking it has to really mean anything. There has been a very ridiculous displays of goodbye (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2903) in the past.

Muku

05-02-2008, 10:09 PM

person's whole life is at stake.

TP you are wrong here...his life is not at stake, only his freedom.

and to the rest ......

as a moderator here you should know better.

Edited to add....

Oppss my bad......:rolleyes: Brain fart!:argh3:

InDuhUSA

05-02-2008, 10:13 PM

I really dont give a crap about his marital status. Sleeping with other women besides one's wife DOES NOT make a person the opposite of nice. It is in fact quite possible to sleep with A LOT of women and still be a nice guy. History is CHOCK FULL of nice guys who had affairs. Barbara Walters just admitted to having an affair with a nice guy Senator back in the 70s. Not a bad thing to say about him. NEXT!

I'm sure their wives would agree with you about how nice their husbands are :41:

vvloc

05-02-2008, 11:00 PM

okisteve

05-02-2008, 11:22 PM

Hell, it ain't even rocket surgery.....

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 12:26 AM

TP you are wrong here...his life is not at stake, only his freedom.

Oops, my bad. I thought figurative speech was understood by most.

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 01:51 AM

It seems to me that 99.9% of his peers have figured out how to NOT to be involved with 14 year olds, so I guess it is not rocket science or brain surgery.

This is sloppy reasoning here, vv.

To graph it onto something else gives it up as so:

99% of the population has figured out how to live in society and NOT be involved in a murder case, so those who find themselves involved in a murder case are guilty.

Obviously it is wrong to think that there are NO wrongful prosecutions and sentencing for murders where either the circumstances exonerate the accuse, or that the evidence or confession has not been coerced or obtained wrongfully, or perhaps even fabricated to some degree.

Appeal to the majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) is a fallacy -- and, therefore, a fallacious argument, if you are putting that forth as some sort of proof of his guilt or that it infers his guilt.

As skeptical as I am of the military, I do find the agenda of the military in continuing to prosecute this case worthy to bring into questioning, and whether or not it is one of politics and not one of being punitive for justice's sake or for that of prevention to happening again. After all, when has the U.S. military ever been consistently guilty of doing the altruistic thing not based on self interest for the Okinawans? I don't think a man's life ("freedom" for the figuratively challenged readers) should be at the whim of a political agenda of the military who is more concerned with maintaining their status quo in a place than serving justice for the sake of justice.

vvloc

05-03-2008, 03:17 AM

Muku

05-03-2008, 07:43 AM

V...good post, :thumbup:

Hell, it ain't even rocket surgery.....

Wonder if he is going to "get" it.:w00t: :thumbup:

Oops, my bad. I thought figurative speech was understood by most.

Note to dk give TP an infraction for being flippant with the membership here.:rolleyes:

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 12:10 PM

With all due respect, I think we are talking about two different things here. Zorro comes here, and as far as I am concerned offers very dubious, and self-serving scenarios.

Finally, when I quote him the DOD section where it clearly stipulates that it HIS (and others) responsibility to "ensure" they know the age of the female in question, his response is what I consider flippant and childish:

"how about do your bit for the world and give us some tips for ascertaining a woman's age with certainty while still keeping alive the potential for a happy ending," and it is to that query that I make my assertion.

vv, I am not really defending Zorro's whole view and take on the situation. He can do that himself. I did point out your very sloppy reasoning you just posted above, and rather than admitting that was sloppy, you decided to misdirect back to something else, as if that is what I was referencing with my post on the point of your use of a fallacy.

I also brought up another point that you failed to address, that a person's life could be at stake based on a political agenda and not for the sake of justice -- which you seem to be quite fine with more or less it seems just due to your antipathy towards the military -- that you'd rather see them eat their own rather than serve justice. You are willing to throw altruism out the window for that.

And I asked you, when has the U.S. military consistently been guilty of altruism in Okinawa without their own self-interest of maintaining the status qou being the rock in their eye? Show me a 20 year stretch of consistency.

Until you do, while yes, there may be DOD regs on the books to stick to things like this, it is quite clear that how the military acts and what cases they choose to prosecute or not, is more, if not at times, determined by politics than justice.

I am not his parent, and if he doesn't know the questions or is unable to make the observations necessary to distinguish between a 14 year old and a woman of age, then I really must conclude that it HIS PERSONAL problem and not a problem with the DOD regulation.

I am not your parent, and if you don't know the dynamics in Okinawa between the military, politics, and the citizeny, and are unable to make the observation necessary to distinguish between politics and justice, then I really must conclude that it is your problem and others who believe and reason like you that leads us to many miscarriages of justice.

A large portion of what Zorro seems to be saying is that we are not privy to all the information, and that from what has been reported, caution and prudence should be observed. And rightfully so when a person's life is at stake. He's offered some reasonable things to consider and has left open the possibility that he is quite willing to change his position on many of the points once more info comes about, but rather than you acknowledging that in a mature way with respect to discussion for discussion's sake, you snipe at him and pick at a point or two.

You show yourself to be inflexible in discourse and thought on issues, and the reality of mitigating circumstances.

It is within this specific context that I made the point that with his gift for imagination in conjuring up excuses for the defendent, he should be equally adept at finding a way to his happy ending with a woman of appropriate age.

Zorro, IIRC, has qualified his statements with words denoting what could have been possible. He didn't state those were the concrete excuses for Hadnott. Words such as "may have", "possible that", "perhaps" or conditionals such as "if" are prudent words to use when the ramifications of a prosecution could ruin a life. Zorro is putting forth the line of caution while also at the same time saying once more info comes out, he is more than willing to throw the key away to his cell.

As for Hadnott's confession obtained at the hands of Jpn police? Oh yeah, that sure is golden with Japan's 97% conviction rate and their methods of interrogation -- not to mention being notorious for making the confession the centerpeice of virtually all convictions. Not like Japan hasn't taken a hit on that, eh? Or haven't you been reading newspapers critical of Japan for that?

There are holes riddled all over this case, or at least a lot of question marks for those of us not privy to the evidence, to let any fair minded person with discernment to take a step back and ask for more information before grabbing torches. But hey, if you want to add to the breeding of anti-altruism and the potential for injustice, I sense that you are quite willing to do so.

Muku

05-03-2008, 12:40 PM

As for Hadnott's confession obtained at the hands of Jpn police? Oh yeah, that sure is golden with Japan's 97% conviction rate and their methods of interrogation -- not to mention being notorious for making the confession the centerpeice of virtually all convictions. Not like Japan hasn't taken a hit on that, eh? Or haven't you been reading newspapers critical of Japan for that
Hadnott's confession to the Japanese, hmmm will it be used by the military or not? Technically it is heresay unless the military has gotten the same confession from him as well.

Japan and it's system is not on trial here, if you want to discuss that feel free to start your own thread about this issue.

I also brought up another point that you failed to address, that a person's life could be at stake based on a political agenda and not for the sake of justice -- which you seem to be quite fine with more or less it seems just due to your antipathy towards the military -- that you'd rather see them eat their own rather than serve justice. You are willing to throw altruism out the window for that.

You keep on bringing up that his life could be at stake and I once again will point out to you that you are incorrect you even stated that yourself:rolleyes:. This is not a death penalty case and you know that.

I agree that there is much that is unknown about this case and have stated on a number of occasions, oh others have as well, that the only people that truly know the truth here are Hadnott and the victim in this case.

There is no need for anyone here to proceed with caution either, it is now in the hands of the military, and if is being fried for political reasons, along with the interests of justice fine then so be it.

There are holes riddled all over this case, or at least a lot of question marks for those of us not privy to the evidence,
Not really, if news reports are to be believed here there are no holes at all; you've got a 38 year old man looking to get some ass off of a 14 year old girl.

He picks her up on his bike takes her for a spin, she's thrilled, he takes her to his house, she feels like a queen until he starts putting the make on her, she gets scared runs out the door.

He runs after her, agrees to take her home but tries again by taking her for a ride, stops the car and tries making out again. Fairly simple....rape? Maybe, maybe not.....a child molester yes that is plainly obvious. Kidnapping? Possibly. Making false statements...have no idea what or where that one came from.

I personally have zero sympathy for a 38 year old man that tried to have sex with a 14 year old girl.:thumbdown:

Ammoyankee

05-03-2008, 01:41 PM

I personally have zero sympathy for a 38 year old man that tried to have sex with a 14 year old girl.:thumbdown:

In the proverbial nutshell!!!

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 01:49 PM

Japan and it's system is not on trial here, if you want to discuss that feel free to start your own thread about this issue.

Any case going to court in a system that has serious short-fallings with the procedures that bring trials to court and the whole mix of that, makes those procedures fair to dicuss, if not in full, then certainly on the periphery as to how it has impacted on the case. I did not create a whole post, or whole series of single minded posts on this point to bring the whole thread off on the Jpn legal system. You are stretching again, Muku.

You keep on bringing up that his life could be at stake and I once again will point out to you that you are incorrect you even stated that yourself:rolleyes:. This is not a death penalty case and you know that.

Geesh, I really hate schooling on the use of figurative speech. But hey, let me just ask vvloc if he is hung up like you on the figurative use of "life" here? I trust him enough to give an honest answer on the point. The use of "life" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/life) is and can be used widely so that the figurative meaning of it is not lost on most. vv sure isn't hung-up on it.

Not really, if news reports are to be believed here there are no holes at all; you've got a 38 year old man looking to get some ass off of a 14 year old girl.

The hole here is the "if" as far as us who are viewing the case from the outside are concerned. I think this is what Zorro has been referring to.

Maybe, maybe not.....a child molester yes that is plainly obvious.

It is not obvious, because the "if" of what we are told from the media reports have not been proven or has all come out as fact. You are bing inconsistent here. First you state an "if" and then you state it is "obvious".

Sorry, but your rush to judgement still falls short.

I personally have zero sympathy for a 38 year old man that tried to have sex with a 14 year old girl.:thumbdown:

And neither do I for someone who has knowledge that a person is underage and particularly those who have intent to have sex with someone who is underage. I do have a respect for justice, though, and a healthy dose of skepticism for the media and the military.

As Zorro bringing up the point that it is possible Hadnott may not have known the girl was underage, that is possible. I know some of you don't want to admit that, but it certainly is not beyond the realm of possibility here. Appearances and mannerism with regards to age can be deceiving.

Here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32342&postcount=4).

Here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32347&postcount=7). btw, where you felt it important to point out the girl on the right was 14 acknowledging that those viewing the image may not catch it themselves.

Here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32374&postcount=12). Borderline thinking a young girl is 17, very close to 18.

Here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32628&postcount=29). Another one who thought the age is quite borderline to 18.

Here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32809&postcount=52). Admitting a 15 yr-old looked like a 25 yr-old.

Here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32847&postcount=56). A member understanding the looks of a young female could be mistaken for a young woman rather than the much younger age she actually is.

OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand

05-03-2008, 02:02 PM

Does anyone still believe that this Hadnott fellow didn't know her age?! Sure, even I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that when he talked her into going for a spin on the back of his bike, he may not have known her exact age (but, some have pointed out in other threads the perp & victim may have known each other before - even if they didn't, our boy Tyrone must have at least got some vibe from this girl and the group she was hanging with that they were awfully young). So, he takes her for a spin, gets her back to his place. He talks her up. Still no idea she's a mere giggling schoolgirl?! Alibi's getting thinner. She balks, runs. He catches her, offers her a ride back home in his car. So, they talkes some more. But, through all this, not a single clue or intuition that this girl may not be "legal"? Alibi practically transparent now. So, they hop in his wagon, he takes her to a park for one last kick at the cat, and she freaks. So they must have spoke just a little bit more, right. Well, where was his age-dar? Not even a little concerned after hours of talk and touchy feely games that she's not quite adult yet?! Yes, you guessed it...complete bullshit.

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 02:36 PM

An idiot may not know because an idiot may not care so long as his visual sense confirms what he wants and hopes to satisfy. I dunno, maybe we should create some laws against being an idiot.

I remember "hooking up" for one night stands with someone just met and not once did the question of age ever come up. I just assumed that because they looked to me what I considered to be of age they were. The question was moot.

I've met many underage women who were the more reserved serious non giggly type girls.

I am not saying Hadnott is NOT guilty. I am saying it is not beyond the reasonable realm of possibility that he indeed could NOT be guilty. Caution. That is all. Well worth it.

Of course we are not the judge and jury, other than popular opinion looking in on it from the outside, but I have cringed to read of cases where men have been exonerated after sitting in a cell for years while waiting for a woman to recant accusations that sent them to prison years before. I don't think it is BS to want to avoid that. I think it is BS to discard that real threat.

And again, trusting the military to serve justice with their stellar line of faithful service to mankind with justice may take a lot more faith than believing the accounts of a hysterical girl. Not like they have ever lied for political reasons or self interest -- or prosecute for something that was a lie (http://slugtales.com/powell%20bumperstickers.jpg). They know well the game of chess and moving pawns around -- not to mention sacrificing one for retaining control of the board.

I don't trust the military establishment because they lie and are deceptive.
I trust the military establishment to serve justice fairly.

There is a huge built in contradiction between these thoughts that warrants a high degree of caution in a military prosecution of anything, and targets and defendants should be duley protected from the abuses of an agenda since that may be more about political than justice.

Zorro

05-03-2008, 06:04 PM

As for your "Goodbye", Zorro, don't let the others corral you into thinking it has to really mean anything. There has been a very ridiculous displays of goodbye in the past.

No sweat. My goodbye was to Muku in this thread, not the thread itself, and not even to Muku in other threads.

OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand

05-03-2008, 06:07 PM

Asshat

05-03-2008, 06:14 PM

Wow. Suspension of disbelief is alive and well. Sure, it's not beyond any doubt that he did not know her age. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that he had no suspicion she was not a legal adult. He may not of cared, but that's another kettle of fish.

lol...Yeah, if he wanted to legally screw young girls he should have taken a quick trip to Manila or Bangkok. In the PI, it's cooll as long as you pay. In BKK, no one cares either way.

Legal suspension of disbelief is much more plausible where the dollar is stronger against the local currency.

Zorro

05-03-2008, 06:14 PM

Maybe, it's just me, but I fail to see anything in Zorro's posts that makes the slightest bit of sense. On top of that, with the numbers of military men stationed here, he wants me to tell him how he can ascertain just how old a girl is.

It seems to me that 99.9% of his peers have figured out how to NOT to be involved with 14 year olds, so I guess it is not rocket science or brain surgery.

If its simple, then answer the question.

I have heard of many people being asked for picture ID because the bartender thought they were too young. Well, many were not too young and ended up getting served. Why didnt they just employ the simple techinique you wont describe for us? You know, the one where you find the woman's age without doubt but kept the mood going.

I also heard that Traci Lords was doing underage porn for two years before anyone figured out she wasnt 18. She fooled A LOT of people, a GD LOT of people, and nearly got a whole bunch of male porn actors jailed. Why did no one use this mysterious technique you wont describe?

Answer the question, or desist.

Asshat

05-03-2008, 06:24 PM

The only solution is to screw around with women with gray hair. She might have a DL, but what gaijin is gonna be able to do the math or read it?

Dont date without a passport? Translated copy of Toseki Shohan?

There is a fine line between 14 and 20 with very few young women. I'm a dumbass, and I can tell. Sure, I might make a mistake and accidentally bag a 17 year old. But that aint 14!

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 06:28 PM

It is beyond a reasonable doubt that he had no suspicion she was not a legal adult.

I think that is a conclusion we can't make on specific cases, Eel, without access to seeing her or knowing him. If so, then I guess all juries and judges would never need to be in the same room with the defendant and accusers as people are tried. Everything could be done with reporters and newspapers as the filter mixed in with what the police -- and now in this case the military investigators would tell us.

He may not of cared, but that's another kettle of fish.

Very well could be. And, yes -- a different kettle.

Zorro

05-03-2008, 06:47 PM

lol...Yeah, if he wanted to legally screw young girls he should have taken a quick trip to Manila or Bangkok. In the PI, it's cooll as long as you pay.

Actually, its illegal in those places too, if for no better reason, extraterratorial laws. :ohmy:

And I am not convinced that this was his goal.

But does it matter in this case? Either he raped her and is guilty of rape or he didnt rape her. If he didnt rape her it stands to reason he did not have consenual sex either. I have not heard of an attempted underage sex charge, so the point is moot. It may not be a bad idea to make such a charge one day, but we cant apply it to Hadnott today.

However, if you believe he knew, I can see why that would affect your image of the man's character. It doesnt affect me, but that is a topic for another thread.

TP: Thanks. :thumbup: You have explained my position nicely. I admit my words are not easy to understand, so a fresh angle is most welcome, especially when its accurate.

And your point about misdirection is right on the money. Its a sad techinique, and I can only feel embarrassed for those that employ it. :thumbdown:

Asshat

05-03-2008, 06:48 PM

I think that is a conclusion we can't make on specific cases, Eel, without access to seeing her or knowing him.

Yeah TP, during this whole "event" that has been my overwhelming thought.

I have felt that I could not make a personal judgement on any of it without seeing the girl. Seeing how old she looked, or acted. Knowing the guy's schtick...

TheNoNamedOne

05-03-2008, 06:53 PM

There is a fine line between 14 and 20 with very few young women. I'm a dumbass, and I can tell.

lol. Perhaps Tyrone has a higher score than you on the Dumbass Quotient test.

Muku

05-03-2008, 07:02 PM

Wow. Suspension of disbelief is alive and well. Sure, it's not beyond any doubt that he did not know her age. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that he had no suspicion she was not a legal adult. He may not of cared, but that's another kettle of fish.

I dont know about the no suspicion she was not a legal adult part here eel, I am of the opinion that he didnt care.

No sweat. My goodbye was to Muku in this thread, not the thread itself, and not even to Muku in other threads.

FYI This is "my" thread btw......oh and that isnt just directed to you either.

Asshat

05-03-2008, 07:05 PM

Actually, its illegal in those places too, if for no better reason, extraterratorial laws.

And are those laws enforcable by one not subject to the UCMJ? Or do those 2 million annual visitors to Thailand have something to worry about?

However, if you believe he knew, I can see why that would affect your image of the man's character. It doesnt affect me, but that is a topic for another thread.

What I believe is of no consequence. What I infered and have infered for the past two months on this is that it is very difficult for someone who has been here long enough to have married a Japanese wife to not know what 14 looks like.

No matter how much anyone puts in this with regard to "law" the fact of the matter is the dude was playing footsie with a 14 year old, and that it is apparent to anyone who has lived here as long as he has, the difference between legal and not legal.

Prostitute or not, consensual or not, that is the deal.

The only misdirection of consequence were the politicos who prayed that a rape HAD occured to further their own motives.

vvloc

05-03-2008, 07:34 PM

This is sloppy reasoning here, vv.

To graph it onto something else gives it up as so:

99% of the population has figured out how to live in society and NOT be involved in a murder case, so those who find themselves involved in a murder case are guilty.

Obviously it is wrong to think that there are NO wrongful prosecutions and sentencing for murders where either the circumstances exonerate the accuse, or that the evidence or confession has not been coerced or obtained wrongfully, or perhaps even fabricated to some degree.

Appeal to the majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) is a fallacy -- and, therefore, a fallacious argument, if you are putting that forth as some sort of proof of his guilt or that it infers his guilt.

As skeptical as I am of the military, I do find the agenda of the military in continuing to prosecute this case worthy to bring into questioning, and whether or not it is one of politics and not one of being punitive for justice's sake or for that of prevention to happening again. After all, when has the U.S. military ever been consistently guilty of doing the altruistic thing not based on self interest for the Okinawans? I don't think a man's life ("freedom" for the figuratively challenged readers) should be at the whim of a political agenda of the military who is more concerned with maintaining their status quo in a place than serving justice for the sake of justice.

I know that philosophical discussion is something you enjoy - I do not find it as interesting as you. I am more interested in what seems to have logically happened here.

In your response to me,

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101355&postcount=101

you refer to Appeal to the majority

When I click on this link, I see that "argumentum ad populum" refers to primarily to belief systems. My comment that 99.9% of military members on this island having not gotten themselves so embroiled in such an alleged sexual misconduct case with such a young girl is not based on belief, but on empirical evidence.

We have, more than once, had various compendiums of criminal cases involving the military posted on these boards, and the number of such cases with girls of and near this age has been EXTREMELY rare.

As to the military's interest in prosecuting this case, "where there is smoke there is fire." I think there is MUCH more than just some tangential, circumstantial evidence that some SERIOUS criminal wrong doing occurred here. How serious, we will just have to wait and see.

vvloc

05-03-2008, 07:52 PM

vv, I am not really defending Zorro's whole view and take on the situation. He can do that himself. I did point out your very sloppy reasoning you just posted above, and rather than admitting that was sloppy, you decided to misdirect back to something else, as if that is what I was referencing with my post on the point of your use of a fallacy.

I also brought up another point that you failed to address, that a person's life could be at stake based on a political agenda and not for the sake of justice -- which you seem to be quite fine with more or less it seems just due to your antipathy towards the military -- that you'd rather see them eat their own rather than serve justice. You are willing to throw altruism out the window for that.

And I asked you, when has the U.S. military consistently been guilty of altruism in Okinawa without their own self-interest of maintaining the status qou being the rock in their eye? Show me a 20 year stretch of consistency.

Until you do, while yes, there may be DOD regs on the books to stick to things like this, it is quite clear that how the military acts and what cases they choose to prosecute or not, is more, if not at times, determined by politics than justice.

I am not your parent, and if you don't know the dynamics in Okinawa between the military, politics, and the citizeny, and are unable to make the observation necessary to distinguish between politics and justice, then I really must conclude that it is your problem and others who believe and reason like you that leads us to many miscarriages of justice.

A large portion of what Zorro seems to be saying is that we are not privy to all the information, and that from what has been reported, caution and prudence should be observed. And rightfully so when a person's life is at stake. He's offered some reasonable things to consider and has left open the possibility that he is quite willing to change his position on many of the points once more info comes about, but rather than you acknowledging that in a mature way with respect to discussion for discussion's sake, you snipe at him and pick at a point or two.

You show yourself to be inflexible in discourse and thought on issues, and the reality of mitigating circumstances.

Zorro, IIRC, has qualified his statements with words denoting what could have been possible. He didn't state those were the concrete excuses for Hadnott. Words such as "may have", "possible that", "perhaps" or conditionals such as "if" are prudent words to use when the ramifications of a prosecution could ruin a life. Zorro is putting forth the line of caution while also at the same time saying once more info comes out, he is more than willing to throw the key away to his cell.

As for Hadnott's confession obtained at the hands of Jpn police? Oh yeah, that sure is golden with Japan's 97% conviction rate and their methods of interrogation -- not to mention being notorious for making the confession the centerpeice of virtually all convictions. Not like Japan hasn't taken a hit on that, eh? Or haven't you been reading newspapers critical of Japan for that?

There are holes riddled all over this case, or at least a lot of question marks for those of us not privy to the evidence, to let any fair minded person with discernment to take a step back and ask for more information before grabbing torches. But hey, if you want to add to the breeding of anti-altruism and the potential for injustice, I sense that you are quite willing to do so.

TP, as I said, philosophical discussion is not what I find useful in this thread.
I don't know why I feel that you wish to attack some very short and succinct posts of mine clearly stating my beliefs in this matter.

I find Zorro's contentions to be defensive denial, and I have stated such.

I find Eeel's:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101426&postcount=108

to be VERY logically stated and requires no frantic searching for unlikely scenarios as do Zorro's.

Asshat

05-03-2008, 07:59 PM

TP, as I said, philosophical discussion is not what I find useful in this thread.
I don't know why I feel that you wish to attack some very short and succinct posts of mine clearly stating my beliefs in this matter.

I find Zorro's contentions to be defensive denial, and I have stated such.

I find Eeel's [post]to be VERY logically stated and requires no frantic searching for unlikely scenarios as do Zorro's.

I find discussions about the validity of the discussions to be tedious.

I also find that I agree to some extent, portions of almost every post in this thread. There simply is not enough information to "know" yet the suppositions are all valid, either way.

So the guy is being Courts Marshalled. The charges, if we can believe the news seem to indicate something did happen.

Muku

05-03-2008, 08:04 PM

TP, as I said, philosophical discussion is not what I find useful in this thread.
I don't know why I feel that you wish to attack some very short and succinct posts of mine clearly stating my beliefs in this matter.

I find Zorro's contentions to be defensive denial, and I have stated such.

I find Eeel's:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101426&postcount=108

to be VERY logically stated and requires no frantic searching for unlikely scenarios as do Zorro's.

I agree with both you and eel here in the post that you included, I would like to add one other thing...

It was also reported that Hadnott had initially met with this girl and her friends at Wendy's, prior to him picking him picking her up on the bike. I find it rather difficult to believe that he had no idea that this girl was underage, if not from being with her alone but also with the other girls that were with her at the time that they got together.

I go back again to the fact that he is married, yet separated from his wife, and that he had at least rudimentary knowledge of Japanese, that also points to the probability that he at least had an idea of the age of the girl(s) that he was talking to, and that he choose to over look her age when he decided to take her for a spin.

vvloc

05-03-2008, 08:07 PM

If its simple, then answer the question. Why didnt they just employ the simple techinique you wont describe for us? You know, the one where you find the woman's age without doubt but kept the mood going.

Answer the question, or desist.

You have asked this question of me before, and at this point, I wonder what ten years on this island, presumably in the military has taught you. The types of questions one might pose within a conversation that would help answer your dilemma are so numerous. If you are really serious about pressing this issue, I suggest you consult your colleagues, or go to these guys:

http://www.usmc-mccs.org/sapro/bestp...?sid=ml&smid=8

I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help.

I am VERY happily married to a wonderful Okinawan woman, so the point is moot, but prior to that, the rule was really quite simple. When in doubt, don't. BTW - I've lived in about a dozen different countries and the rule was always the same.

With an island population that has such an overwhelmingly large number of single women, are you really having so much difficulty in achieving your "happy ending(s)?"

Zorro

05-03-2008, 08:07 PM

And are those laws enforcable by one not subject to the UCMJ? Or do those 2 million annual visitors to Thailand have something to worry about?

Could you rephrase? I am not following.

But one thing is certain: Soldiers have no rights. Hadnott can and most probably will be railroaded no matter what. I only question if its fair.

What I infered and have infered for the past two months on this is that it is very difficult for someone who has been here long enough to have married a Japanese wife to not know what 14 looks like.

Then we are at an impass. I have a lot of experience suggesting otherwise, from classmates back home, to well publicized incidents, to J-students here in Japan who fooled J-adults, but I cant impart that experience to you.

No matter how much anyone puts in this with regard to "law" the fact of the matter is the dude was playing footsie with a 14 year old

Footsie? I find it odd and irrational that fewer eyebrows would have been raised if she had a gangbang with three 17 year olds.

the difference between legal and not legal.

I am still not certain what that is in Okinawa, nor if the military have their own rules.

Asshat

05-03-2008, 08:23 PM

Then we are at an impass. I have a lot of experience suggesting otherwise, from classmates back home, to well publicized incidents, to J-students here in Japan who fooled J-adults, but I cant impart that experience to you.

You are creating a debate with me when there is none.

You are a new comer here. And/or, you are not Hadnott's age and do not have his experience. After thirty years, I guess I am able to tell the difference between legal and not. This is not "back home" where the legal age is 16 or 18. It is 20. She was 14.

I have spent a lot of time in every SE Asian country. There are no laws which I fall under, save those laws of that country, or more accurately what laws that country chooses to enforce.

He knew she was underage. He had enough cultural experience to do so. Simple as that.

Bones

05-03-2008, 08:35 PM

As posted by Asshat:

I have spent a lot of time in every SE Asian country. There are no laws which I fall under, save those laws of that country, or more accurately what laws that country chooses to enforce.

He knew she was underage. He had enough cultural experience to do so. Simple as that.

I'll agree with you on this one. But sometimes wonder if some people are complaining about this issue, due to the fact that they want to do what Hadnott has done, before the legal loop-hole is closed.

As a parent, I would be the one in jail at this point. If some old guy touched my young daughter, I'd kill him.

Bones

Asshat

05-03-2008, 08:41 PM

As posted by Asshat:

I'll agree with you on this one. But sometimes wonder if some people are complaining about this issue, due to the fact that they want to do what Hadnott has done, before the legal loop-hole is closed.

As a parent, I would be the one in jail at this point. If some old guy touched my young daughter, I'd kill him.

Bones

Yeah Bones, that is as simplistic as it gets. Legal Eagles want to grab hold of this thing and dissect it to it's simplist form.

I dont give a shit if he didn't touch her. He put her on his motorcycle. That was already too far, and any man who can not tell the difference between a 14 year old Okinawan girl and a 20 year old woman is... Everyone knows the difference.

Zorro

05-03-2008, 09:24 PM

This is not "back home" where the legal age is 16 or 18. It is 20.

Its 18 in most of Japan. 13 in Tokyo as far as I know.

20 is for smoking and drinking in most of Japan.

I cant speak for Okinawa specifically.

You are creating a debate with me when there is none.

First you say that and then go on to say there is no way he could not know she was 14.

I am not trying to start a debate. I am trying to end it. My experience, and its LOOOOONGGGG, suggests otherwise. I have seen it several times. You dont buy it. Its an impass.

Asshat

05-03-2008, 09:34 PM

Its 18 in most of Japan. 13 in Tokyo as far as I know. I am not trying to start a debate. I am trying to end it. My experience, and its LOOOOONGGGG, suggests otherwise. I have seen it several times. You dont buy it. Its an impass.

Naw, I can't. I've just dated too many women here since 1978, to not know the difference between 14 and 20.

I didn't know it was 13 in Tokyo. I will have to take your word for it.

So I must defer to what Bones said earlier. As a father, I would simply kill the 38 year old man who thought it was okay to give my 14 year old daughter rides.

And yes, he will be punished per military statutes for at least messing with the girl, no matter how guilty you or I think he is or is not.

Muku

05-03-2008, 09:58 PM

As posted by Asshat:

As a parent, I would be the one in jail at this point. If some old guy touched my young daughter, I'd kill him.
Bones
Bones you are not the only one here.....

I'll agree with you on this one. But sometimes wonder if some people are complaining about this issue, due to the fact that they want to do what Hadnott has done, before the legal loop-hole is closed.

I get the same impression from people posting here that are attempting to make the point that Hadnott couldnt possibly had the idea that the girl was underage.

Zorro

05-03-2008, 10:09 PM

I've just dated too many women here since 1978, to not know the difference between 14 and 20.

That statement makes no sense! Dating women over 20 teaches you nothing about an advanced 14 year old!

Anyway, I have taught a lot more young women than you have dated, I have no doubt.

I used to work at an elementary school. One day as the kids were leaving, a woman in high heels, glasses, make-up, perm and sexy clothes shows up. I and all the other J-teachers thought she was a mother come to collect her kid. She was short, but not the shortest mother by any means. She walked onto the school grounds with several of us teachers trailing behind and they started chatting about her. Then it hit me. That was a girl who graduated two years ago. That put her at 14. The other teachers had not taught her so I had to tell them.

That girl had breasts even when I was teaching her. And she sure was not the only one. There were several girls looking beyond their years, a couple near as tall as me and with legs bigger around, and this was not a big school. I have also taught Jr. High, conversation school and juku. Several girls developed fast. That one at the elementary school took the cake, but she was the only one I ever saw actually TRYING to look older. I knew some who could do a better job as far as appearances tho.

Anyone with my teaching experience either knows this or has had blinders on. And I know some people who know they have blinders on for their own peace of mind.

Mother nature does not play by our rules. She throws some at us and we cant tell the difference. Not saying they are typical, but they are common enough.

I will speak no more on this. Its moot anyway.

As a father, I would simply kill the 38 year old man who thought it was okay to give my 14 year old daughter rides.

I was avoiding commenting on that, but you have tempted me too much, especially with other comments on this.

I will just say that a teenage girl alone is something of a target. One was just killed in Toyota, Aichi riding home alone from school. Even Hadnott makes a better escort than no one, particularly if he never raped that young woman and I would bet he didnt if we were betting on this.

Most men of any age would show a young woman more respect. Remove most men from the picture, and you get whats left: the dregs. Hadnott is something of a dreg himself, but not the worst if my guesstimation is correct.

I gave rides and yes, even kisses to underage women when in my 20s. I took the risks. But they were safe with me. Most nice guys wont do that anymore. They just wont take the risks. Guess who will? I believe there is a price to pay for your attitude. There are things out there worse than rides and kisses, even forced ones that I myself never applied to a teenager.

TheLastDon

05-03-2008, 10:11 PM

Bones you are not the only one here.....

I get the same impression from people posting here that are attempting to make the point that Hadnott couldnt possibly had the idea that the girl was underage.

I keep reading this thread then I think about this 11 year old girl in this thread.
http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2122

vvloc

05-03-2008, 11:12 PM

Anyway, I have taught a lot more young women than you have dated, I have no doubt. I have also taught Jr. High, conversation school and juku.

YOU ARE/WERE A TEACHER, and you come on here fishing for lines sufficient to ascertain if a girl is of legal age!!!

Boy, your conversation classes must have been pathetically boring.

You really should quit while you're ahead. The more you reveal, the more inconsistent (word chosen for politeness sakes) your whole persona becomes.

Muku

05-03-2008, 11:50 PM

Most men of any age would show a young woman more respect. Remove most men from the picture, and you get whats left: the dregs. Hadnott is something of a dreg himself, but not the worst if my guesstimation is correct.

Scratching my head here;....
If you think this way then why are you taking so much effort to come across as if you are defending him and his actions?

That girl had breasts even when I was teaching her. And she sure was not the only one. There were several girls looking beyond their years, a couple near as tall as me and with legs bigger around, and this was not a big school. I have also taught Jr. High, conversation school and juku. Several girls developed fast. That one at the elementary school took the cake, but she was the only one I ever saw actually TRYING to look older. I knew some who could do a better job as far as appearances tho.

Zorro it isnt just looks, it's the personality and the "way" they carry themselves and talk as well.

Like I wrote earlier Hadnott didnt "just" pick this girl up off the street from looks alone, he, once again repeating myself here, had previous contact with this girl AND her friends at Wendy's prior to the bike ride.

There is no way in my opinion that a 38 year old man could not have known or at the minimum suspected that she was underage. He also has a Japanese wife which makes it even more suspect that he could not have had an inkling of this girl or her friends being underage.

Knowing about it and ignoring it are of course two different things.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 12:03 AM

My comment that 99.9% of military members on this island having not gotten themselves so embroiled in such an alleged sexual misconduct case with such a young girl is not based on belief, but on empirical evidence.

And how does that in any way mean guilt? Another model based on your construct for you, vv:

It seems to me that 99.9% of her peers have figured out how to NOT be involved with 38 year olds, so I guess it is not rocket science or brain surgery.

Of course I don't believe that reasoning and would not employ that, but that is the reasoning you are using to affix guilt. The majority of what happens on either side says nothing about the minority case. The facts of the minority cases rest on the facts of each of those cases, and not the statistical majority.

As to the military's interest in prosecuting this case, "where there is smoke there is fire."

I certainly do not rule that out; as well, I also do not rule out the fire being at the political level more than the level of justice. What did I tell ya about chess and sacrificing pieces?

Btw, when will you get around to showing us a 20 year span in which the U.S. military has been consistently guilty of altruism here in Okinawa? Tonight, or tomorrow?

Muku

05-04-2008, 12:17 AM

Btw, when will you get around to showing us a 20 year span in which the U.S. military has been consistently guilty of altruism here in Okinawa? Tonight, or tomorrow?

Once again start your own thread instead of hijacking someone elses.

It's a different subject that directly or indirectly has nothing to do with this one.

You should know better.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 12:37 AM

TP, as I said, philosophical discussion is not what I find useful in this thread.
I don't know why I feel that you wish to attack some very short and succinct posts of mine clearly stating my beliefs in this matter.

You muse in a rather philosophical way that you are not someone's parent, and then say you are not interested in the ramifications of the reasoning that stems from that analogy? That is disingenuous.

I am attacking your beliefs and argument here because they are not sound, in as much as you can't see some of the problems with this case. Not to mention I find it suspicious that you suddenly have faith in a system (U.S. military) that I sense you abhor. You are conveniently using the military, or enjoying watching the military turn on one of its own and eat its own without consideration for justice or altruism.

I am no fan of the military either, but I am less of a fan of injustice and faulty reasoning.

I find Zorro's contentions to be defensive denial, and I have stated such.

Of course his points are of defensive in nature. He is not rushing to judgement and is offering other points to consider. However, he does NOT deny that if in fact he is guilty, he will throw away the key to his cell. He is quite willing to do so. But he, and neither am I, are willing to say that nothing stinks in this whole thing.

Why do you trust military justice? Why do you trust military justice when in order to get what they want tried, they insert a catch-all article for anything else they may have missed? Why do you trust military justice in a case that has reached the highest levels of politics? Why do you trust military justice on a case that could impact on troops stationing and billions and billions of dollars spent for relocating in order to appease? Why do you trust the evidentiary findings of a Japanese investigation in a legal system where 97% of the cases brought to trial end in conviction and where the evidence mostly relied upon is the confession?

I find Eeel's:
http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101426&postcount=108

With all do respect, I do not agree fully with Eel's position on it.

to be VERY logically stated and requires no frantic searching for unlikely scenarios as do Zorro's.

What is frantic about Hadnott just being an idiot without very good powers of discernment? What is frantic about being deceived, either intentionally or unintentionally? Nothing frantic about either of those?

What I find frantic is you resorting to majority statistics to deduce guilt and analogies of parentage that falls flat, where you conveniently put them forth, but then feel you have some right to dismiss them once they are thrown back at you.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 01:09 AM

I also find that I agree to some extent, portions of almost every post in this thread. There simply is not enough information to "know" yet the suppositions are all valid, either way.

So the guy is being Courts Marshalled. The charges, if we can believe the news seem to indicate something did happen.

Indeed, he is. Oh, but the justice of it! The justice? While not damning it entirely, I am skeptical if justice will be served. I wonder if politics and hegemony will be served more.

“Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.” -- Groucho Marx

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 02:19 AM

It was also reported that Hadnott had initially met with this girl and her friends at Wendy's, prior to him picking him picking her up on the bike. I find it rather difficult to believe that he had no idea that this girl was underage, if not from being with her alone but also with the other girls that were with her at the time that they got together.

Then let's haul the whole group of these girls in to take a look at 'em, look at their pics on their cell phones of one another (you know so that we see their image before they may purify that before the court with pink ribbons), and get character witnesses for them.

It is often the case that like minded persons or the same style and fashion of persons socialize with one another. Even more so in group oriented Japan. At least in my school days similar style kids hung out with one another.

Still falls short of guilt.

I go back again to the fact that he is married, yet separated from his wife, ...

Irrelevant to the point of guilt with the rape charges.

...and that he had at least rudimentary knowledge of Japanese, that also points to the probability that he at least had an idea of the age of the girl(s) that he was talking to,...

WHOA! Case cracked wide open! Rudimentary knowledge of Japanese makes it more probable that age is discerned in Japanese. Whew! Glad we got that cleared up. I just wonder why the ages of all young people I met in Japan when I first got here magically didn't become clear to me once I learned how to say, "Konbanwa".

Oh man, that will be comical if they will use Muku's "rudimentary Japanese" argument at the Courts Martial.

...and that he choose to over look her age when he decided to take her for a spin.

There ya go. Jumping ahead of yerself again, Muku.

05-04-2008, 03:57 AM

So, TP, you're telling me that you can't tell the difference between a Japanese girl aged 14 and 20? At all? You couldn't discern that? No way at all?

I can see where both sides of the argument are coming from, and I've been arguing the whole time that we don't have enough facts to really say one way or another what happened. But then again, I don't get out a whole lot. I don't really get the chance to test out my age discernment whatsoever. But you're saying that there may be a chance that one would not be able to tell a 14 year old from a 20 year old strictly from mannerisms?

vvloc

05-04-2008, 06:07 AM

And how does that in any way mean guilt? Another model based on your construct for you, vv:

It seems to me that 99.9% of her peers have figured out how to NOT be involved with 38 year olds, so I guess it is not rocket science or brain surgery.

Of course I don't believe that reasoning and would not employ that, but that is the reasoning you are using to affix guilt. The majority of what happens on either side says nothing about the minority case. The facts of the minority cases rest on the facts of each of those cases, and not the statistical majority.

I certainly do not rule that out; as well, I also do not rule out the fire being at the political level more than the level of justice. What did I tell ya about chess and sacrificing pieces?

Btw, when will you get around to showing us a 20 year span in which the U.S. military has been consistently guilty of altruism here in Okinawa? Tonight, or tomorrow?

If you look at my initial post in this thread

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99484&postcount=26

and much of my subsequent statements, you would understand that I am making some simple points. Why are you/he trying to talk of apples when I am talking of oranges?

Point one applies to the totally logical fallacy of him not knowing her age. Since Roman times the concept of Ignorantia juris non excusa has been almost unanimously accepted in judicial systems world-wide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

I posited, in my original post, the situation of driving 80 kmh in a 40 kmh zone, and he came back at me and said what if their were no speed limit signs? There is adequate provision for such case in the default speed limits laws adapted by most countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit

Simply put, he should have known her age, no ifs, ands, buts, or maybes involved, even if only his intention was to simply kiss her.

The DOD mandates that HE ensure such and I have put in my own two cents
with the phrase, "If in doubt, don't."

Now if you or he wish to try and make the case that the burden of responsibility in this matter lies not with the 38 year old "professional" male, but with the 14 year old girl, be my guest, but I would characterize that as desperately flailing about seeking the unseekable.

As to the 2nd point in the post (#26), Zorro's contention 38 year old military person "and he just rolled over on top of her for this kiss. Big deal."

Anyone who cannot see the immorality implicit in such a statement, shouldn't even be included in this conversation.

No big deal!!! Maybe no big deal to Zorro who seems to feel that his happy ending over-rides any and all other considerations, but I think you've seen adequate expression from those parents on this board in this thread who beg to differ. It IS a big deal, a VERY big deal to them.

As to you querying me as to the altruism of military justice, feel free to question the legitimacy of the court. This is the job of a defense attorney who has little else substantive to offer in defense of his client. I have at no point broached this topic and don't intend to.

vvloc

05-04-2008, 06:44 AM

You muse in a rather philosophical way that you are not someone's parent, and then say you are not interested in the ramifications of the reasoning that stems from that analogy? That is disingenuous.

I am REALLY getting tired of this bit about me needing to supply a ~30 year old guy, who now seems to feel that he is/was a teacher with a script to ascertain age. It seems to me that in popular culture, dates, especially first dates, much of the conversation seems to involve biographical sketching. If Mr. Zorro or Mr. Hadnott are not clever enough to know questions that would lead a 14 year old to consistent or inconsistent responses, then I am afraid that that speaks rather poorly for both their intellect and maturity levels.

I will, based on my above comment refrain from broaching body language clues and "the eyes being the windows to the soul" as further ways of determination.

The whole question reeks of people who just wish to jump into a woman's drawers without even devoting minimal civilized means of establishing a relationship.

I am attacking your beliefs and argument here because they are not sound, in as much as you can't see some of the problems with this case. .
I am no fan of the military either, but I am less of a fan of injustice and faulty reasoning.

For one who claims to be seeking justice, I don't recall many, if any voicing any complaint when for the entire time that Haddnott was under Japanese custody, the loud refrain of innocent until proven guilty resounded in these halls. Yet within 10 minutes of his release many of these civil libertarians felt perfectly comfortable in branding her a "f**king whore"

The sound beliefs or arguments coming from the fans of justice suddenly became quite muted.

What is frantic about Hadnott just being an idiot without very good powers of discernment?

Another thing that I find entirely loathsome is the use of the labels stupid, dumbas* etc. by those who presume him to be guilty. I would not use such innocuous words. Pervert or abuser seems to be the more appropriate terminology..

What is frantic about being deceived, either intentionally or unintentionally? Nothing frantic about either of those?

What I find frantic is those who make a case for a 14 year old girl (an Okinawan girl, no less) having such street smarts that she can deceive a 38 year old Staff Sgt.

When the cab driver was robbed, I commented on the ludicrous suggestions offered the such as:

a. he robbed himself
b. he lost the money at pachinko, and
c. he drank it up in awamori, as 50% of these cab drivers drink on duty.

I will be more than content to allow this Hadnott case to play out, and I promise not to come back with I told you so, IF you do not resort to the kind of faulty contrived defenses I am hearing from some in this thread.

Sex Wax

05-04-2008, 06:55 AM

I am REALLY getting tired of this bit about me needing to supply a ~30 year old guy, who now seems to feel that he is/was a teacher with a script to ascertain age. It seems to me that in popular culture, dates, especially first dates, much of the conversation seems to involve biographical sketching. If Mr. Zorro or Mr. Hadnott are not clever enough to know questions that would lead a 14 year old to consistent or inconsistent responses, then I am afraid that that speaks rather poorly for both their intellect and maturity levels.

I will, based on my above comment refrain from broaching body language clues and "the eyes being the windows to the soul" as further ways of determination.

The whole question reeks of people who just wish to jump into a woman's drawers without even devoting minimal civilized means of establishing a relationship.

For one who claims to be seeking justice, I don't recall many, if any voicing any complaint when for the entire time that Haddnott was under Japanese custody, the loud refrain of innocent until proven guilty resounded in these halls. Yet within 10 minutes of his release many of these civil libertarians felt perfectly comfortable in branding her a "f**king whore"

The sound beliefs or arguments coming from the fans of justice suddenly became quite muted.

Another thing that I find entirely loathsome is the use of the labels stupid, dumbas* etc. by those who presume him to be guilty. I would not use such innocuous words. Pervert or abuser seems to be the more appropriate terminology..

What I find frantic is those who make a case for a 14 year old girl (an Okinawan girl, no less) having such street smarts that she can deceive a 38 year old Staff Sgt.

When the cab driver was robbed, I commented on the ludicrous suggestions offered the such as:

a. he robbed himself
b. he lost the money at pachinko, and
c. he drank it up in awamori, as 50% of these cab drivers drink on duty.

I will be more than content to allow this Hadnott case to play out, and I promise not to come back with I told you so, IF you do not resort to the kind of faulty contrived defenses I am hearing from some in this thread.

I bet you love when the J National news blasts an American Serviceman for breaking the law. I guess in you opinion, only Americans are to blame for anything. I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish that whatever happened in your past to view Americans in bad way never happened. The Haddnott case: FUBAR all the way around. The Taxi Driver, FUBAR also. But I guess it is ok for a JSDF guy to go whack a taxi driver huh? I say fvck it. The Haddnott case is done effecting everyone else. 1995 was the last big news story, we were due for one anyhow. It's blown by, we've weathered the "typhoon of press", time to drop the bitching, the story, and the thread, unless you have nothing else to bitch about.

vvloc

05-04-2008, 07:03 AM

But I guess it is ok for a JSDF guy to go whack a taxi driver huh?

The constant repetition of what is acceptable to do in your own house is not neccessarily acceptable in the house of others continues to elude comprehension by some on this forum.

unless you have nothing else to bitch about.

I did not start this thread. In fact, I was the 25th poster.

Asshat

05-04-2008, 07:09 AM

YOU ARE/WERE A TEACHER, and you come on here fishing for lines sufficient to ascertain if a girl is of legal age!!!

Boy, your conversation classes must have been pathetically boring.

You really should quit while you're ahead. The more you reveal, the more inconsistent (word chosen for politeness sakes) your whole persona becomes.

Well, Zorro did give one example out of the many he has taught. :) He has taught 12 year olds and uses that as an example to underpin the point that those wiley young teens can fool even the most discerning 38 year old.

I must admit, unlike Zorro, the only experience I have with Okinawan 12 and 14 year olds is with relatives. Since I do not want to divulge my role in support of the military here, I can not dilvulge how I do understand what young teens try to pull off. But understand it I do.

I don't feel any further need to defend my position either concerning the ability of a man to discern an idea of a woman's age.

Thus, as the father of a grown daughter, and the grand father of five daughters, I would make a poor choice for a juror, panel, or presiding judge on any case in which a 38 year old man was accused of trying to date a 14 year old girl.

Sex Wax

05-04-2008, 07:12 AM

The constant repetition of what is acceptable to do in your own house is not neccessarily acceptable in the house of others continues to elude comprehension by some on this forum.

I did not start this thread. In fact, I was the 25th poster.

Did I say that anything an American does bad in Japan is cool? I have been on both sides of the fence. If my comp was Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji capable, I would be blasting away in the local lingo. But there are trolls under the bridges here, who like to poke their heads out sometimes. I like to cut them off.

:thumbup1:

vvloc

05-04-2008, 07:16 AM

Did I say that anything an American does bad in Japan is cool? I have been on both sides of the fence. If my comp was Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji capable, I would be blasting away in the local lingo. But there are trolls under the bridges here, who like to poke their heads out sometimes. I like to cut them off.

:thumbup1:

As I pointed out, but you seemed not to notice, I did not initiate this thread.

Would the last 3 hours of your soliloquey of incomprehensible drunken drooling drivel in chat qualify as trolling?

At least my comments were in answer to questions posed directly to me.

Sex Wax

05-04-2008, 07:20 AM

As I pointed out, but you seemed not to notice, I did not initiate this thread.

Would the last 3 hours of your incomprehensible drooling drivel in chat qualify as trolling?

At least my comments were in answer to questions posed directly to me.

lol...some would view it as art. But thank you for a stimulating read. I would rather vent on the chat than give people like you the satisfaction of another incident to raise your "America Sux" post count.

:thumbup1:

Asshat

05-04-2008, 07:47 AM

lol...some would view it as art. But thank you for a stimulating read. I would rather vent on the chat than give people like you the satisfaction of another incident to raise your "America Sux" post count.

:thumbup1:

America Sux! Everyone sux! One of the things that keeps me sane is to never take myself very seriously. I don't take other very seriously either. There are enough other things to take seriously, like war-mongering America, (all the other countries are peace-loving and had nothing to do with the current state of the middle east, or demarkation lines in India, or Iraq)

In real life, I walk and talk just like John Wayne, like all Americans. Well, time to go to church, then to the store to buy another dangerous handgun!

Muku

05-04-2008, 08:39 AM

Then let's haul the whole group of these girls in to take a look at 'em, look at their pics on their cell phones of one another (you know so that we see their image before they may purify that before the court with pink ribbons), and get character witnesses for them.

It is often the case that like minded persons or the same style and fashion of persons socialize with one another. Even more so in group oriented Japan. At least in my school days similar style kids hung out with one another.

Still falls short of guilt.
Your sarcasm is noted as well as your lack of understanding what the point of my statement was about in regards to the girl in question and her age.

Evidently it blew over your head.

Has nothing to do with guilt nor the rape charges. It does however call into question the belief that some people have here about whether or not he was aware of her age.

You should have known that as well and are just taking things out of context.

You are just looking to stir shit up here TP. Once again, what's this the 3rd time on this thread alone....You should know better.:thumbdown:

Zorro

05-04-2008, 08:56 AM

YOU ARE/WERE A TEACHER, and you come on here fishing for lines sufficient to ascertain if a girl is of legal age!!!

No, I am asking a question that we both know you got no clear easy answer to.

Most of the time, yes, it is possible to be reasonably sure of a teenage female's age. But there are a few where it is not possible to be sure without asking questions that will kill the mood. Even then, they might lie.

I even have an example in reverse. Last month I met a girl who could have passed for 17. She said she was 23. I was not about to walk away because frankly, it had been a long lonley winter.

She told me about part-time jobs she did that a high school student could do. She said she graduated college. As the quiet type, she did not go into much detail about things. Did I get fooled? I got no idea. But I was not about to pry too much. She said she was 23. If I started acting like I think she is bluffing, the odds of getting together were going to drop. I was not going to do that. And as finding a new girl is not a point and snap issue, I think men should be given a break if the young woman is actively trying to fool us and doing a good job of it.

The more you reveal, the more inconsistent (word chosen for politeness sakes) your whole persona becomes.

Its more likely you just dont understand. We are discussing things like what might have happened that night with Hadnott and the girl (and guessing a lot), what has and will happen to Hadnott on the legal front, and what we think SHOULD happen (which is moot and I would rather avoid). It seems to me that you have just put things I said into the wrong category. I am consistent.

But if you think you got me on being inconsistent, then explain and I will gladly clear it up. I sure cant tell what you think was inconsistent in that short post.

Zorro

05-04-2008, 09:28 AM

Point one applies to the totally logical fallacy of him not knowing her age. Since Roman times the concept of Ignorantia juris non excusa has been almost unanimously accepted in judicial systems world-wide.

I dont think it applies if a person is tricked into breaking the law.

I posited, in my original post, the situation of driving 80 kmh in a 40 kmh zone, and he came back at me and said what if their were no speed limit signs? There is adequate provision for such case in the default speed limits laws adapted by most countries:

In some places, if the speed limit is not posted, it goes to the default speed limit. Lets say the default is 65. Now, if Hadnott did not rape nor use brutality to get the kiss, I think 80 might be overstating the issue. I would put it at 72 and let him go after a stern warning. If he used brute force for the kiss, then 80 and give him a ticket. If he raped, 150 and take away his license for a few years at least. That is if the signs were removed by someone, even unruly teenagers.

The DOD mandates that HE ensure such and I have put in my own two cents
with the phrase, "If in doubt, don't."

Ok, fine. It does and this will be applied to Hadnott. Nothing we can do. Case closed. Throw the book at him. I agree that this will be done. Happy?

What I dont agree with is the concept that its fair. Can you tell the difference? Or do we need to rehash it all yet again?

As to the 2nd point in the post (#26), Zorro's contention 38 year old military person "and he just rolled over on top of her for this kiss. Big deal."

Another rehash of something I thought was solved. That was NOT a contention. I WAS NOT there. I introduced it as a very real possibility. It *MIGHT* have happened that way. Your brain hears "force" and jumps to worse case scenerio. I am just telling you it might not be worst case scenerio, *MAYBE*. Is that so hard to understand? Do we have to dredge THAT up again? For craps sake I hope not.

Maybe no big deal to Zorro who seems to feel that his happy ending over-rides any and all other considerations

Not even! I have declared Hadnott a fool for not taking the young woman precisely where he said he would. If and when I become absolutely sure he used brute force to get the kiss, I have said I hope he gets more jail time. If he raped, then let the dogs loose! I got plenty of rules, PLENTY. What I dont have is certainty of a whole bunch of facts. None of us do.

Zorro

05-04-2008, 09:54 AM

The whole question reeks of people who just wish to jump into a woman's drawers without even devoting minimal civilized means of establishing a relationship.

Is this illegal?

If Mr. Zorro or Mr. Hadnott are not clever enough to know questions that would lead a 14 year old to consistent or inconsistent responses, then I am afraid that that speaks rather poorly for both their intellect and maturity levels.

Wow! You are still picking at this? Come on, man! If its so easy enlighten us with dialouge!

But please understand, I am not saying I cant do this. In fact, I usually do. But usually just isnt good enough to make it a legal requirement IMHO. All I am saying is that it is possible to get fooled. I say again, Traci Lords fooled the world, with looks and mannerisms to all the people who watched her vids, and add dialouge too for all the people that worked with her. Nobody cracked her facade with simple questions.

Another good example of people getting fooled and we just cant believe it is when people get scammed on the telephone. You and I think to ourselves "How in GOD's name could they get fooled like that?" Most people dont. But some do. It happens. Hadnott's lip wrestling partner might have fooled us too. I never met her, so I cant say.

Edit: Ok, in posts directed at me I responded to the age determination question again. That is what I get for waking up and going straight to the computer.

Zorro

05-04-2008, 10:50 AM

So, TP, you're telling me that you can't tell the difference between a Japanese girl aged 14 and 20?

I can turn up nothing to clearly indicate that the age of consent in Okinawa is 20. Wiki says it is not clear as prefectural ordinaces go. It could be 18 or it could be 20 depending on how one interprets the law. Nothing specifically for Okinawa I can find anywhere (and I looked outside of wiki too), so I have to think it is not a special case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia

But considering the fact that 18 year old prostitutes are allowed, I think it would be silly to keep citing 20 years old as the cut off point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kosai

vvloc

05-04-2008, 11:50 AM

vvloc: "Point one applies to the totally logical fallacy of him not knowing her age. Since Roman times the concept of Ignorantia juris non excusa has been almost unanimously accepted in judicial systems world-wide."

Zorro: I dont think it applies if a person is tricked into breaking the law.

vvloc: "I posited, in my original post, the situation of driving 80 kmh in a 40 kmh zone, and he came back at me and said what if there were no speed limit signs? There is adequate provision for such case in the default speed limits laws adapted by most countries:"

Zorro: In some places, if the speed limit is not posted, it goes to the default speed limit. Lets say the default is 65. Now, if Hadnott did not rape nor use brutality to get the kiss, I think 80 might be overstating the issue. I would put it at 72 and let him go after a stern warning. If he used brute force for the kiss, then 80 and give him a ticket. If he raped, 150 and take away his license for a few years at least. That is if the signs were removed by someone, even unruly teenagers.

Conclusion: I think Hadnott should be acquitted of all charges and be allowed to open a school with you. It could be called the H & Z School of Logical Reasoning. That would be punishment enough for any impure thoughts he may have unintentionally had in this affair.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 01:07 PM

So, TP, you're telling me that you can't tell the difference between a Japanese girl aged 14 and 20? At all? You couldn't discern that? No way at all?

For the most part I most certainly can, dk. But there have been a few times I could not. When I met my wife's niece the first time I thought she was a college student, but later learned she was 16. I could easily see some guy could have made that mistake with her, and if in that person's mind there was no doubt that she was college-school age, there is a good chance the question of age may not have been even asked if it were a prelude to a one-night stand. Why should it if in that person there is no doubt?

Now, I know you asked about 14 and 20, and I used a 16 year old as an example, but Hadnott is being charged with rape for a child under the age of 16 -- not 20, or even 18. I am sure there are many 14 yr-olds who look 16, and probably a few who come closer to looking 18. Throw in an idiot on the other side and then 20. Being an idiot doesn't excuse it, but it does take away malicious intent.

But you're saying that there may be a chance that one would not be able to tell a 14 year old from a 20 year old strictly from mannerisms?

Yes, I do think there are such chances. Not all 14 yr-olds are giggly with pink ribbons in their hair and scream, "kawaii" every chance they get.

I've already posted links to some here who have just commented they couldn't tell by looking at their pics. Even Muku had to tell everyone that the "girl on the right is 14" lest people didn't catch it. Mix that physical appearance in with someone trying to even look older or act older, and not act giggly, then the chance sure does exist.

Zorro

05-04-2008, 01:26 PM

vvloc:
Conclusion: I think Hadnott should be acquitted of all charges and be allowed to open a school with you. It could be called the H & Z School of Logical Reasoning. That would be punishment enough for any impure thoughts he may have unintentionally had in this affair.

Is there some sort of point to all that?

I think it is foolish to think Hadnott SHOULD be acquitted without having all the evidence. If I ever suggested he should be acquitted, its because sufficient evidence has not been presented to me. The most solid things I see dont really amount to much. Give me more evidence and I might melt his cell key down and make fish line sinker out of it.

And punishment for impure thoughts? Where are you going with that?

P_chan

05-04-2008, 01:34 PM

Even Hadnott makes a better escort than no one, particularly if he never raped that young woman and I would bet he didnt if we were betting on this.

I almost died from laughter after reading this!

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 01:38 PM

If you look at my initial post in this thread

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99484&postcount=26

and much of my subsequent statements, you would understand that I am making some simple points. Why are you/he trying to talk of apples when I am talking of oranges?

What I see is you making assumptions all over the place. What I see is you dodging the point of justice for the sake of satisfying your sense of outrage. What I see is you evading many questions pointed directly at you. You have yer apples, and I've been making apple juice fer ya. Ya just refuse to drink what ya have harvested.

Point one applies to the totally logical fallacy of him not knowing her age. Since Roman times the concept of Ignorantia juris non excusa has been almost unanimously accepted in judicial systems world-wide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

This is a perfect example here of you jumping tracks with assumptions, vv. "Ignorance of the law" is not equated to mean "ignorance of the facts." Being ignorant of a law IS no excuse, and that like you have said has been accepted since Roman Times, but ignorance about parts of the facts which lead up to the breaking of a law surely has always been part of mitigating circumstances that weighs on a prosecutor's decision to bring charges, and the judge's and juries decision of the case.

You've applied Ignorantia juris no excusa wrongfully, and quite badly at that. Where in any news reports has Hadnott, or in this forum have I, or perhaps even Zorro, stated that his innocence rests on the notion that he did not know it was illegal to engage in sex with underage females? That is another question, like many of mine you have yet to answer, which is not rhetorical. I'll ask again, will you be getting to this and those questions today, or tomorrow?

You're falling quite far behind in getting to questions.

The DOD mandates that HE ensure such and I have put in my own two cents
with the phrase, "If in doubt, don't."

And if there is no doubt? What does that do to your argument?

Now if you or he wish to try and make the case that the burden of responsibility in this matter lies not with the 38 year old "professional" male, but with the 14 year old girl, be my guest, but I would characterize that as desperately flailing about seeking the unseekable.

vv, why the misrepresentation? Who has said the burden of responsibility lies more with the 14 yr old girl than with Hadnott? What we have been saying is that all the details are not out yet, and that mitigating circumstances will, as they rightfully should, weigh into the mix with this case.

Why do you think there is the concept of mitigating circumstances in law?
Why do you think we recognize miscarriages of justice in regards to wrongfully accused, wrognfully tried, wrongfully convicted?

More non-rhetorical questions to you fer ya homework.

vvloc

05-04-2008, 02:04 PM

And if there is no doubt? What does that do to your argument?

Did you really ask this question? No doubt, no case, no offense, and no need for tedious threads discussing an alleged offense that never occurred.

Thanks for the homework assignments, but after Zorro made a complete champuru of speeding and sexual misconduct, I can see this thread has completely devolved into a melange of hypothetical delusions.

For a prosecutor, you seem to have been transformed into a public defender. Perhaps instead of Hadnott and Zorro's School of illogical fantasy a Defenders R Us office might be more feasible.

I'm out - this virtual theatre of the absurd will be much more viable without my contrivances.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 02:25 PM

I am REALLY getting tired of this bit about me needing to supply a ~30 year old guy, who now seems to feel that he is/was a teacher with a script to ascertain age. It seems to me that in popular culture, dates, especially first dates, much of the conversation seems to involve biographical sketching.

Well, what is there to say to this, vv, except that all dates do not follow a scripted scenario. I am not even sure if all pick-ups that are headed towards one-night-stands are even considered dates? I've had one-nighters that I would not consider a date, where we hooked up within the course of a night -- and that did not include asking each others' ages.

You need to break out of your cookie-cutter, vv, or find a new one. Yer head keeps getting cut off (http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/abc-cookie-cutters-3.jpg).

If Mr. Zorro or Mr. Hadnott are not clever enough to know questions that would lead a 14 year old to consistent or inconsistent responses, then I am afraid that that speaks rather poorly for both their intellect and maturity levels.

Whoa! So now I've seen everything. Men, regardless of whether they have doubt or not about a female's age, create a series of questions in the vetting out process with women that tricks them into giving up their age by being consistent or inconsistent. LMAO! Maybe it could help out in other ways (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2333&highlight=Gaia).

I will, based on my above comment refrain from broaching body language clues and "the eyes being the windows to the soul" as further ways of determination.

Ah, poetic. What did I tell ya about cookie cutters?

For one who claims to be seeking justice, I don't recall many, if any voicing any complaint when for the entire time that Haddnott was under Japanese custody, the loud refrain of innocent until proven guilty resounded in these halls. Yet within 10 minutes of his release many of these civil libertarians felt perfectly comfortable in branding her a "f**king whore"

I for one stated that was quite inappropriate to do so when that broke out in the chat. Did I run around to every thread on the point to defend for or against Hadnott or her? No. Not necessary and is irrelevant as to whether someone cares that justice is served. All members can pick and choose which threads and the number of threads they wish to participate in. Choosing one or many on the same topic does not decrease one's placement of value on anything -- in this case justice.

What I find frantic is those who make a case for a 14 year old girl (an Okinawan girl, no less) having such street smarts that she can deceive a 38 year old Staff Sgt.

Sounds racist, vv. What? -- Korean, Chinese, Philipine, American, Mexican, Congo, Tokyo, Nagoya, etc....girls fall on different gradients of possibilities as it concerns street smarts or sexual deception by virtue of their race?

I will be more than content to allow this Hadnott case to play out, and I promise not to come back with I told you so, IF you do not resort to the kind of faulty contrived defenses I am hearing from some in this thread.

Oh, I am pretty sure that since this case may be more about politics than justice, he will probably be convicted. The outcome is not much doubted by me.

Your failure to honestly view and allow for mitigating circumstances, however, precludes you from being able to identify, let alone perhaps understand what the concept of miscarriage of justice means. Justice is not being served when it is being driven by politics. You are more about revenge and loathing towards the institution of the military than respecting fair justice to those accused who are members of that institution.

Zorro

05-04-2008, 03:34 PM

I almost died from laughter after reading this!

I can see two reasons to laugh. One is that you agree that the young woman from Toyota would have lived had Hadnott been escorting her.

The other is that you think the young woman from Toyota is better off dead.

Could you please tell me which?

Zorro

05-04-2008, 03:39 PM

I'm out - this virtual theatre of the absurd will be much more viable without my contrivances.

That is too bad. I was looking forward to knowing what was wrong with my expansion of the speed limit analogy. Oh, well.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 04:16 PM

As to you querying me as to the altruism of military justice, feel free to question the legitimacy of the court. This is the job of a defense attorney who has little else substantive to offer in defense of his client. I have at no point broached this topic and don't intend to.

I am not defending Hadnott. I AM prosecuting your reasoning and your inflexible, if not inability, to accept that it is quite possible that he, or anyone for that matter, could fail to recognize a 14 year old female's age from an older age, be that 16, 18, or perhaps even 20.

And damn skippy it is right to question if justice is being served if politics is lurking in the shadows of a case. The judge(s) in the Amistad trial had to deal with politics, and to the credit of the final judge that presided over the case, was able to throw it off. I think it is much harder for a military court to throw politics off when re-allignment of thousands of troops, public anger, and billions of dollars could be at risk.

You trust the military to dispense justice in the shadow of politics when the system itself is questioned by its own lawyers, highlighting different cases that show how corrupted it can be?:

In the motion Hamdan’s attorney (http://justicedenied.org/wordpress/?m=200804), Navy Lt. Brian Mizer, quotes Bush appointee, Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, telling the military prosecutors, “We need to think about charging some of the high-value detainees because there could be strategic political value to charging some of these detainees before the election.”

and...

Former chief Guantanamo prosecutor Air Force Col. Morris Davis resigned in October 2007 because of political interference in the conduct of the military commission trials. He also said he was pressured to pursue weak “sexy” high-profile cases over those that were more solid cases, and that since convictions were expected, “I felt I was being pressured to do something less than full, fair and open.”

and...

Prior to Davis’ resignation, three Guantanamo prosecutors were transferred in 2004 after they protested the military tribunal procedures, including that they were rigged to ensure convictions. One of the reassigned prosecutors, Air Force Captain John Carr, wrote to his superior: “When I volunteered to assist with this process and was assigned to this office, I expected there would at least be a minimal effort to establish a fair process and diligently prepare cases against significant accused. Instead, I find a half-hearted and disorganized effort by a skeleton group of relatively inexperienced attorneys to prosecute fairly low-level accused in a process that appears to be rigged. You have repeatedly said to the office that the military panel will be handpicked and will not acquit these detainees and that we only needed to worry about building a record for the review panel.”

and...

Another of the reassigned prosecutors, Air Force Major Robert Preston, wrote to his superior: “I consider the insistence on pressing ahead with cases that would be marginal even if properly prepared to be a severe threat to the reputation of the military justice system and even a fraud on the American people.”

Yeah, these are not examples of military attorneys speaking out on rape charges of Okinawans over the years, but it gives us insight into the military law culture that lets politics abuse the system, because military justice is not, and never has been, ever set-up to ensure a fair trial -- or at least not with the definition of fair that most people view as fair -- and not when politics is involved.

But hey, I guess you are not worried about fraud perpetrated on the American people, eh? -- or if the reputation of the military justice system is injured just so long as they eat one of their own in the process, eh?

vvloc

05-04-2008, 04:29 PM

I am not defending Hadnott. I AM prosecuting your reasoning and your inflexible, if not inability, to accept that it is quite possible that he, or anyone for that matter, could fail to recognize a 14 year old female's age from an older age, be that 16, 18, or perhaps even 20.

And what you TOTALLY fail to recognize is that in this judicial system, yea, in most judicial systems, his failure to recognize that she was 14 years old is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT if there was sexual misconduct. There are no extenuating circumstances to discuss.

And, as you seem to be so fond of assigning homework assignments, see if you can find a case where a sexual predator was found not guilty because he was unaware of his victim's being FOURTEEN years old.

Until you do, there is no amount of further baiting, nor insults to my conceptions of justice that will provoke me to further respond in this thread.

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 05:45 PM

Nice to have pulled ya back, vv. However, before issuing homework it would be more courteous of ya if you were hand yours in first, since it was assigned first.

But, seeing you have yet to do so after more than enough time to get with it on the matter, my hope that you ever will do so is slight to none.

And what you TOTALLY fail to recognize is that in this judicial system, yea, in most judicial systems, his failure to recognize that she was 14 years old is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT if there was sexual misconduct. There are no extenuating circumstances to discuss.

Sorry for you, you are wrong on the most important point that you have failed to make. Defendants often argue that they were not aware of a female's age before a judge and jury, and make their closing arguments on that. Judges retain the right to not allow attorneys to put forth certain arguments in their defense. They also retain the right to not allow attorneys to put forth certain arguments in closing statements. They have the right to instruct juries that whether or not the age of the alleged victim was known or not is irrelevant. That many courts do allow these defenses acknowledges that they are a part of mitigating circumstances to degree of guilt or punishment that the court will decide. That few legal systems or courts rule in favor of these arguments with each defendant is true, but that does not mean they are not able to be presented as a defense and certainly is not foreign to controversey regarding a females age in these kinds of cases.

That what is done in most judicial systems is once again a fallacy of appeal to the majority. Precedents are always possible.

But hey, let's look at the western nation of Ireland:

Statutory rape law ruled unconstitutiona (http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0523/sex.html)l
Tuesday, 23 May 2006 21:53
The Supreme Court has unanimously declared unconstitutional the law under which any man is automatically guilty of a crime if he has sex with a girl under 15.

The court made its decision on several grounds, including the failure to allow the defence that a genuine mistake had been made about a girl's age.

The successful challenge to the legislation was brought by a 23-year-old man. ...

She argued that that it was inconsistent with the right to a fair trial to deny her client the defence of mistake or mistake on reasonable grounds.

The Supreme Court agreed that the section offered absolutely no defence once the act of sexual intercourse was established.

Yes, not the U.S., and not quite 14 yrs-old, but certainly a sign that mitigating factors such as knowledge can and are there to argue. And I found this with just a few minutes of searching.

And, as you seem to be so fond of assigning homework assignments, see if you can find a case where a sexual predator was found not guilty because he was unaware of his victim's being FOURTEEN years old.

Just gave ya a little taste above, vv. But, here again I see how once again dishonestly you have constructed your words. You presuppose a person is a sexual predator before even being being found guilty. Ha! Shameful, and once again sloppy writing on the point. Why would a sexual predator be found not guilty if they already were a sexual predator?

Until you do, there is no amount of further baiting, nor insults to my conceptions of justice that will provoke me to further respond in this thread.

Promise, threat, or are ya coming back now?

Oh wait... hideyho hideyho...too early to go...

She said, he said and then mom said (http://dwb.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5682350p-5094168c.html)
SEAN ROBINSON; The News Tribune
Published: April 22nd, 2006 01:00 AM

A man charged with raping a 14-year-old girl can’t expect sympathy, but Stanley Scott Sadler is getting it from an unlikely source: the teen’s mother.
His trial starts May 1 in Pierce County Superior Court. The charges: kidnapping, child rape, sexual exploitation of a minor, possession of child pornography, dealing in child pornography – 38 felony counts in all.

Sadler’s plea: not guilty. His defense: Blame the girl. Court records show she is a serial juvenile offender, known to advertise herself on Internet sex sites and portray herself as an adult. Sadler claims he was duped.

Twist: The mother, Clark County resident Debra Farnam, agrees with him.

In court documents, she says her daughter admitted lying to Sadler about her age and lying to police about her kidnapping. Prosecutors question the hearsay confession – Farnam is the only source for the girl’s alleged statement.

Complication: The teen is missing. Prosecutors say they don’t know where to find her, and don’t expect her to testify.

The pretrial battle has raged for 18 months. Sadler, now on his third lawyer, has rejected two plea-bargain offers. Last November, Pierce County prosecutors were willing to let him walk out of jail without a rape charge. He refused. ...

LMAO! The police were willing to let him go to make all this disappear, and the acccused said, "the hell with that. I want my name cleared from this girl who deceived me."

Your absolutist argument is being killed (http://www.knifetests.com/image/X-Ray%20of%20knife%20in%20Human%20Skull.jpg), vv.

Now, where's yer homework?

Zorro

05-04-2008, 06:14 PM

his failure to recognize that she was 14 years old is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT if there was sexual misconduct.

My bold. vv may be correct about that. But of course, that brings up the question of if there was sexual misconduct. If rape, certainly yes. If a forced kiss, I dont think so. If molestation, probably yeah.

This is getting harder to resolve than that card game Magic....

Asshat

05-04-2008, 07:12 PM

Oh wait... hideyho hideyho...too early to go...

LMAO! The police were willing to let him go to make all this disappear, and the acccused said, "the hell with that. I want my name cleared from this girl who deceived me."

Your absolutist argument is being killed (http://www.knifetests.com/image/X-Ray%20of%20knife%20in%20Human%20Skull.jpg), vv.

Now, where's yer homework?

TP, I call BS. Here is the homework, tho you assigned vv....as if you are responsible for bestowing upon him a "pull back." (K M over that)

The other day, you posted that the services were allowing criminals. In the very site you posted, I pointed out that nine cases out of hundreds involved sexual crimes, yet the article pointed out that "several" involved teen-agers being underaged.

Your comment: "Once is too many." Mind you, this was talking about one teen having sex with another teen, one of which was underage.

Your last site in "this" thread however seems to offer excuses for that conduct, and you use it as a site as such. Moreover, the site fails to state the age of the accused.

Was he a 38 year-old adult? We can only guess. But I doubt it.

vvloc

05-04-2008, 07:23 PM

http://dwb.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5682350p-5094168c.html

LMAO! The police were willing to let him go to make all this disappear, and the acccused said, "the hell with that. I want my name cleared from this girl who deceived me."

Now, where's yer homework?

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-148512266.html

http://www.doc.wa.gov/offenderinfo/default.aspx

TheNoNamedOne

05-04-2008, 07:47 PM

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-148512266.html

Sorry, vv, but that does nothing for you, because the charges he was found guilty on was NOT rape and the court allowed the jury to look at the pics of the girl to see if they could mistake her age for older than what she was. There WERE extenuating circumstances that you are loath to admit.

Here are some more details related specifically to the point of "knowledge", "deception" and "appearances" according to this case that you keep denying ever comes into play -- that a skilled attorney would definitely be able to raise with a fair court/justice system. I can only guess at why you didn't bring these points up from the article after your google search to track the decision down:

KAREN HUCKS; The News Tribune (KAREN HUCKS; The News Tribune)

Jurors convict 48-year-old Stanley Scott Sadler of exploiting a teen by taking sexual photos of her, but find him NOT guilty of charges he kidnapped and raped her. ...

The jury DID THINK Sadler proved his defenses for the other charges: kidnapping, three counts of third-degree rape of a child, 23 counts of possessing child pornography and three counts of dealing child pornography for e-mailing the photos to his friends.

Those crimes required a lower level of defense: that Sadler reasonably believed the girl’s lie that she was old enough – at least 16 – to have sex with him and that he had no facts that told him she was too young – under 18 – to be in sexy photographs. ...

Much of the case hinged on subjective issues such as whether the girl looked older than she was and whether Sadler was telling the truth. ...

He said jurors told him they thought that the girl appeared quite young in one photo prosecutors showed but looked old enough on her Web profile and in some other photos to have legally had sex with Sadler.

Surely you had to think I had already ferreted this info out, didn't ya? -- or that at least I would follow up on it to keep ya honest, didn't ya?

Now, what were you saying about extenuating circumstances never being considered/discussed in charges like this?

Asshat

05-04-2008, 07:51 PM

Surely you had to think I had already ferreted this info out, didn't ya? -- or that at least I would follow up on it to keep ya honest, didn't ya?

Now, what were you saying about extenuating circumstances never being considered/discussed in charges like this?

Excellent. You also deflated some of my argument. lol..

So what do you think the Courts Marshal would award SSgt Hadnott for taking sexual photographs of a 14 year old? I know this point has been brought up before.

But you have proven your point. Thus...I now feel okay with hitting on very young women, and hoping for the best!

JayHand

05-07-2008, 04:40 AM

At least we can all admit that we should be on curfew forever and that will solve all the problems in the world, including, but not restricted to:
toenail fungus, Global Warming, Global Cooling, apartheid, fraudulent public flatulance (it wasn't me), hare kare, holy underwear, cow tongue for breakfast, acid rain, rancid brain, missed train, weak stream, flamboyant ineptitude, bruised jingle berries, horrid migraines, light elbow strains, hoof and mouth disease, trench foot, trepidation, botched innoculation, and fettered human polination.

hankypanky

05-07-2008, 08:48 AM

Asshat

05-07-2008, 08:49 AM

hankypanky

05-07-2008, 08:51 AM

All of those things are caused my SMOKING!

even flatulance, which i would never use in a sentence

DougP

05-07-2008, 10:12 AM

Interesting article .
Few authorities know how to deal with rape victims in Japan (http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/few-authorities-know-how-to-deal-with-rape-victims-in-japan)

The police, when she went to them, were unhelpful. “What were you doing out at that hour?” they demanded.

Details of what followed are sketchy, but by the time Mitamura saw her, it was too late to extract the physical evidence that would substantiate assault charges. Another problem was the girl’s mother, who seemed aloof and indifferent. Mitamura knew from a course of SANE lectures what her first task was, and she quickly set about it. “I said to her, ‘You have suffered terribly. But what happened was not your fault.’”

She then proceeded to make arrangements on the girl’s behalf with a children’s welfare facility.

And yet, says Mitamura, “There was a time when I myself wouldn’t have known what to do. I myself would have admonished her for being out in the street at night: ‘Didn’t it occur to you that it’s dangerous?’ Implicitly I would have blamed her.”

In 2006, says Yomiuri Weekly, there were 1,984 reported rapes nationwide, and an estimated 10 times as many unreported ones. A government survey that same year found 144 of 1578 women surveyed—7.2%—claiming to have at least once submitted against their will to sexual force. The vast majority suffer in silence, with consequences, sometimes lifelong, including insomnia, depression and loss of appetite.

DougP

05-07-2008, 10:16 AM

Not sure if this case has been brought up in this thread or not. But its a follow up on what's been happening with the gang rape case.

But police did not arrest the four as they saw inconsistencies in the woman’s explanations.
A 20-year-old lance corporal pleaded not guilty Tuesday as a court-martial began at the U.S. Marine Corps’ Iwakuni Air Station in Yamaguchi Prefecture over the alleged gang-rape of a Japanese woman in Hiroshima City last October.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/court-martial-begins-for-us-marine-over-alleged-rape-in-hiroshima

OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand

05-07-2008, 04:24 PM

Some of us had wondered earlier in this thread whether the military justice system could use Hadnott's statements to Japanese police as evidence. In reviewing an earlier case (Major Brown, 2002), it appears that evidence may indeed be shared.

Takaesu later said that another reason for Brown's refusal to answer most of the questions was because his answers could be used by the USMC in separate military justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice) actions against Brown.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brown_Okinawa_assault_incident#cite_note-14)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Brown_Okinawa_assault_incident

jrademacher

07-18-2008, 02:18 AM

the girl in the photo doesn't look 14 but I think you could get an estimation of her age range based on conversation. For example, "what do you do for a living? Do you go to school? what do you like to do for fun? ..." These are the basic types of questions that I think everybody asks and then from there you can judge if this person is of age. If these questions bring up any uneasiness of her age, then ask or figure out a way to ask like, "what year did you graduate high school?"

Oki alumni

07-18-2008, 02:36 AM

even flatulance, which i would never use in a sentence

and let's not forget Hemmeroids...and the heart-ache of pysoriasis.

Richard Burns

08-30-2009, 09:22 PM

Example #3: Motorcyle riders are required by reg to wear a reflective vest and other protective equipment...once outside the gate they remove the vest, and sometimes the other equipment as well

...should I keep going?

That's because it's only required ON base not off.

DoctorP

08-30-2009, 10:06 PM

That's because it's only required ON base not off.

At the time that was posted BRAIN SURGEON, the wearing of the vest was required at ALL TIMES!:rolleyes::-|

Crazysix

08-30-2009, 10:22 PM

at the time that was posted brain surgeon, the wearing of the vest was required at all times!:rolleyes::-|

wofrmao :grin1: :grin1:

Fire4Effect

09-10-2009, 12:56 AM

Technically he is innocent. Have we forgotten "innocent until proven guilty"?
I believe some have. Unless someone here actully witnessed a crime we have no idea.....

This only applies to civilians out side of the military. It is a commonly known fact that under the UCMJ you must prove your innocence. It is an all too common occurence that if someone is implicated or accused of something and even if found not at fault, the person will still get Letters Of Reprimand or Adverse Fitreps for even having your namne connected with a situation. The military way of thinking is,"We know you did it. We can't prove it, but we know you did it..."

Tanimaga

09-10-2009, 02:10 AM

This only applies to civilians out side of the military. It is a commonly known fact that under the UCMJ you must prove your innocence. It is an all too common occurence that if someone is implicated or accused of something and even if found not at fault, the person will still get Letters Of Reprimand or Adverse Fitreps for even having your name connected with a situation. The military way of thinking is,"We know you did it. We can't prove it, but we know you did it..."

Is this what they talk about in the commercials on AFN?

I thought the UCMJ was superior to civilian law! :rolleyes: I suppose it depends on which end you are on.

Richard Burns

09-10-2009, 06:34 AM

This only applies to civilians out side of the military. It is a commonly known fact that under the UCMJ you must prove your innocence. It is an all too common occurence that if someone is implicated or accused of something and even if found not at fault, the person will still get Letters Of Reprimand or Adverse Fitreps for even having your namne connected with a situation. The military way of thinking is,"We know you did it. We can't prove it, but we know you did it..."

Finally somebody knows how military "justice" works. Another thing I find funny is you're entitled to a jury of your peers yet they only let SNCOs and officers be on juries. WTF is that. If it's an E3 than the jury should be E3s an below. A bunch of SNCOs are not your peers.

elgringoloco

10-01-2009, 05:32 AM

By God, it's time the Jar Heads on Okinawa picked up the pace. The Ground Pounders in Korea are closing the gap!

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/09/30/200909300112.asp

Violations by U.S. servicemen surge in first half

The number of crimes violating regulations for U.S. soldiers stationed in Korea surged in the first half of this year, most of them involving violence, a police report said Wednesday, Yonhap said.

According to a tally submitted to parliament by the National Police Agency, 128 U.S. servicemen and their families were booked on charges of violating the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) during the first six months of 2009. Eighty-six of them were involved in violent crimes such as murder, theft, robbery, and sexual assault, it said.

SOFA, signed in 1967 between Seoul and Washington, governs the legal status of some 28,500 U.S. soldiers, their families and staff stationed here, including administrative and property matters.

The six month tally has already reached 70 percent of total violations for all of 2008.

The report also showed that since 2008 37 family members and 34 staff members were charged under SOFA regulations.

2009.09.30

CJmc_craken

10-01-2009, 07:22 AM