Buddhists: Guilty of supporting violence by association?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Protests resulting in violence have broken out in Tibet by many Tibetans/Buddhists who oppose Chinese rule and policy to the region.

Often seen as the most revered living Buddhist leader of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has not condemned the violence, nor has he issued an order to those who are resorting to protests to do so only peacefully and within the law. Why do such a large number of Buddhists respect a man who cannot condemn these actions, and perhaps his silence is complicity in violence and inciting it?

Buddhism, the religion or ethical system of peace -- or hypocrisy?

I would say the latter -- particularly when those who profess it as their religion know that the Dalai Lama supports other groups who resort to direct action protests.

[DougP]

This sounds like something else that pops up every now and then. The whole not vocally supporting violence yet not condemning certain proponents for their use of violence. Can't quite put my finger on it.

Seriously it is quite an interesting situation. After so many years of this I'm not at all surprised that even the Dalai Lama himself doesn't speak out against the protesters.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Perhaps you will find this enlightening TP...
In fact, reasons for bending the principle of nonviolence were never wanting. There were considerations of a practical nature: when Buddhist Law is threatened, it is necessary to ruthlessly fight the forces of evil. Kill them all, and the Buddha will recognize his own. Murder in this case is piously qualified as "liberation," since the demon, duly killed out of compassion, will be released from its ignorance and can then be reborn under better auspices. The crucial moment in Tibetan ritual dances comes when the priests stab an effigy personifying the demon forces. This ritual is thought to repeat a monk's murder of King Glang dar ma (842), a persecutor of Buddhism (as such, clearly "possessed" by Evil). Various other theories use this same casuistry, including the idea that it is just to kill out of charity or compassion, to prevent another person from comitting evil.

Indeed, how can one kill another person, when, according to good Buddhist orthodoxy, all is emptiness? The person who kills with full knowledge of the facts kills no one, since he has realized that all is but illusion, himself as well as the other person. The idea, moreover, is not exclusive to Buddhism, since it can be found in the Hindu scriptures, in the Bhagavad Gita. In China a Zen text similarly states that, if a murderous act is perfectly spontaneous, it is of the same order as a natural disaster, and thus entails no responsibility. One finds this sort of sophism in the writing of Zen apostles like D.T. Suzuki. Here as elsewhere, the recourse to higher truths provides justification for the worst aberrations.

Thus, there have been, and will again be, "Buddhist wars," and Buddhism's superiority in this regard is entirely relative. Yet, on the whole, it remains more tolerant than the other great religions and ideologies—which is no small matter, at a moment when the world seems threatened once more by fundamentalisms. In every age, the Buddhist clergy's will to power has been balanced by the ideal of compassion. But Buddhist doctrine, in order not to remain a dead letter, must take account of the violence inherent in the human heart, in society, and in Buddhism itself.
http://www.sangam.org/articles/view/?id=118

[Asshat]

Protests resulting in violence have broken out in Tibet by many Tibetans/Buddhists who oppose Chinese rule and policy to the region.

Often seen as the most revered living Buddhist leader of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has not condemned the violence, nor has he issued an order to those who are resorting to protests to do so only peacefully and within the law. Why do such a large number of Buddhists respect a man who cannot condemn these actions, and perhaps his silence is complicity in violence and inciting it?

Buddhism, the religion or ethical system of peace -- or hypocrisy?

I would say the latter -- particularly when those who profess it as their religion know that the Dalai Lama supports other groups who resort to direct action protests.

Simply stating "Buddhism, the religion or ethical system of peace -- or hypocrisy" doesn't begin to address the question. There are literally hundreds of Buddhist sects and they differ greatly.

The Dali Llama is not considered among Buddists themselves to represent Buddhism. Moreover, as I have stated in other posts, the Dali Llama's comments concerning intimidation as a tool are not in keeping with any of the tenets of Shakyamuni or any other Buddist dogma that I have heard of. (I am writing this without benefit of a Google search)

Your first comment is very incorrect. He is not seen as the "most revered living Buddhist leader of Buddhism." In fact, he is seen as a showman and a political figure living in the absense of the Buddha nature.

The Dali Llama is to Buddism what Jerry Falwell is to Christianity.

[Jrocka83]

Perhaps you should do some research on Tibet. The whole reason tibet lost thier country, is becuase they believe in non-violent practices. When the chinese came in and took over thier country, they didn't fire a single shot, with the exeption of a few rebals. Theirs bad apples in every basket.

[Asshat]

Perhaps you should do some research on Tibet. The whole reason tibet lost thier country, is becuase they believe in non-violent practices. When the chinese came in and took over thier country, they didn't fire a single shot, with the exeption of a few rebals. Theirs bad apples in every basket.

Yes, but had Tibet "went to war" they would have been decimated. Since the Dali Llama has been in exile, Tibet has become increasingly violent.

The issue now is not about "religeon" but about a people wishing for their independance.

I wonder what the US reaction will be? A Myanmar/Burma thing? (Covert assistance while overtly ignoring?

And what about The Games?

[TheNoNamedOne]

The whole not vocally supporting violence yet not condemning certain proponents for their use of violence. Can't quite put my finger on it.

Indeed, Doug, you seem to have caught one of the points -- or the mirror I am holding up to those who try to paint accusations with broad strokes by association or merely by silence. <wink>

To the resident Buddhists here, have all Buddhist orgs/sects condemned the violence and the Dalai Lama for not condemming it? Well?

I am waiting for the list of them and their official words of condemnation to be quoted next to them. Post 'em when you get 'em!

[Asshat]

Indeed, Doug, you seem to have caught one of the points -- or the mirror I am holding up to those who try to paint accusations with broad strokes by association or merely by silence. <wink>

To the resident Buddhists here, have all Buddhist orgs/sects condemned the violence and the Dalai Lama for not condemming it? Well?

I am waiting for the list of them and their official words of condemnation to be quoted next to them. Post 'em when you get 'em!

Few of the Buddists I know mix political commentary with their beliefs. And no Buddist organizations that I know of will ever comment on them.

The actions by Tibetans are not attributed to their beliefs in Buddhism, but in their desire to be free from Chinese oppression. You can not hammer this into a religious situation- though I have seen the popular press attempt to do that.

[ssublime1]

Indeed, Doug, you seem to have caught one of the points -- or the mirror I am holding up to those who try to paint accusations with broad strokes by association or merely by silence. <wink>

To the resident Buddhists here, have all Buddhist orgs/sects condemned the violence and the Dalai Lama for not condemming it? Well?

I am waiting for the list of them and their official words of condemnation to be quoted next to them. Post 'em when you get 'em!So if I'm reading this right you're pointing out the hypocritical nature of Buddhists who don't condemn the Tibetans for fighting back against the Chinese? You really think they should be held in the wrong here? You are that naive to think the Chinese have been melevolent rulers to these people? I guess you haven't seen the videos of soldiers picking them off like sheep when they try to escape through the mountains?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Few of the Buddists I know mix political commentary with their beliefs. And no Buddist organizations that I know of will ever comment on them.

Maybe you need to widen the circle and number of Buddhists you know.

I don't think Buddhists have a leg to stand on when it comes to nonviolence in a rigorous sense of pacifism or peaceful protest for change; hey... let's show some fairness in using broad strokes of the brush to paint orgs and people, eh? (from the quote and link above in case you had missed it):

There were considerations of a practical nature: when Buddhist Law is threatened, it is necessary to ruthlessly fight the forces of evil. Kill them all, and the Buddha will recognize his own. Murder in this case is piously qualified as "liberation," since the demon, duly killed out of compassion, will be released from its ignorance and can then be reborn under better auspices.

[Asshat]

I found this comment which might explain a bit more of what I am talking about:

As one might expect, this approach—which, in truth, is a highly disciplined marketing campaign designed by Western advisers—has had its detractors. Scholar Donald Lopez caused a major stir with his 1998 book Prisoners of Shangri-la: Tibetan Buddhism and the West, which argued that the Dalai Lama has allowed himself to become an object of Western fascination, a figure confirming centuries-old stereotypes and distortions about Tibetans and their religion. Publicly and privately, many Buddhists of all traditions lament the way the Dalai Lama has allowed his teachings, and his own image, to be commodified, even as they express great admiration for him and his leadership. http://www.slate.com/id/2145143

Somewhere I read that the Dali Llama said he has more in common with the Pope than he has with Zen Buddhism.

[Asshat]

Maybe you need to widen the circle and number of Buddhists you know.

I don't think Buddhists have a leg to stand on when it comes to nonviolence in a rigorous sense of pacifism or peaceful protest for change; hey... let's show some fairness in using broad strokes of the brush to paint orgs and people, eh? (from the quote and link above in case you had missed it):

You still do not understand the nature of Buddhism. Untill you do, I would suggest that you refrain from continuing to make posts which demonstrate that ignorance.

In eeles quote, the reference is to Tibetan Buddhism. Also, I never saw anywhere other than in your OP where Buddhists were "required" to stand up for anything publically.

I don't know why I would need to "widen" my circle of aquaintences. I don't excersize beliefs for anyone but myself.

[Asshat]

Indeed, Doug, you seem to have caught one of the points -- or the mirror I am holding up to those who try to paint accusations with broad strokes by association or merely by silence. <wink>

To the resident Buddhists here, have all Buddhist orgs/sects condemned the violence and the Dalai Lama for not condemming it? Well?

I am waiting for the list of them and their official words of condemnation to be quoted next to them. Post 'em when you get 'em!

Doug, do not allow yourself to get roped into this. <wink>

To answer your question, suffice it to say that the Dali Llama does not represent Buddhism, and many Buddhists resent the fact that he has attempted to do just that. Tibetan Buddhism is not the same as say Zen.

Without getting into the discussion of dogma, suffice it to say that this is a thinly disguised attempt for TP to come at me in a public way be reiterating words he has said to me in private.

Not lost on me or anyone are comments he made that the Dali Llama approved the methods used by Sea "Pirates."

I refuted the the Dali Llama then as a Buddhist representitive, and I refute him now as one.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I found this comment which might explain a bit more of what I am talking about:

http://www.slate.com/id/2145143

Somewhere I read that the Dali Llama said he has more in common with the Pope than he has with Zen Buddhism.

Well, at least I'm glad I don't have to run down your quotes anymore by googling them. Thanks for the link source, Umi.

Now, why doesn't Buddhism condemn violence? Is it because it is convenient for them to resort to it when they must for themselves or what they feel is important to them?

Why haven't the leaders of other Buddhist sects/orgs condemned the Dalai Lama for his not condemning the violence in Tibet? Strange silence. Or perhaps you, Umi, have the links showing they have been doing that?

[Asshat]

Now, why doesn't Buddhism condemn violence? Is it because it is convenient for them to resort to it when they must for themselves or what they feel is important to them?

Do you mean why don't the individual Buddist sects condemn violence in general, or do you mean why don't they condemn violence as an organization?

Buddism itself is completely about non-violence. There are plenty of examples of that. Tibetan Buddism unfortunately has been tainted with the writings and teaching of a man who says certain aspects of violence are okay in certain situations. That is where the confusion lays.

Also, the Dali Llama has made statements in the past about non-violent means of protest. I do not know or care what he is saying right now, since he does not represent any Buddism I am associated with.

Thus, it is apparent to me that among his following, there is a very mixed signal being sent. I believe the depth of the current violence involves throwing stones at police?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Without getting into the discussion of dogma, suffice it to say that this is a thinly disguised attempt for TP to come at me in a public way be reiterating words he has said to me in private.

Not lost on me or anyone are comments he made that the Dali Llama approved the methods used by Sea "Pirates."

While there are parallel points to be made, I didn't make this thread just for you, Umi. But, since you have told us that you are Buddhist, tell us, also; is vanity or narcism one of the virtues of Buddhism?

[Asshat]

While there are parallel points to be made, I didn't make this thread just for you, Umi. But, since you have told us that you are Buddhist, tell us, also; is vanity or narcism one of the virtues of Buddhism?

By "us" do you mean "you?" Pretty pathetic what you are doing to DP. Do not presume to judge me. (speaking of vanity) You are so frikken obvious dude. lol...

[Jrocka83]

Yes, but had Tibet "went to war" they would have been decimated. Since the Dali Llama has been in exile, Tibet has become increasingly violent.

The issue now is not about "religeon" but about a people wishing for their independance.

I wonder what the US reaction will be? A Myanmar/Burma thing? (Covert assistance while overtly ignoring?

And what about The Games?

I think the Tibetans, are just trying to get more attention, being that china is in the Spot light with the olympics this year. The increasing violance is just an attempt to get more attention. Thousands of peace protest are heald around the world monthly. But they never get any attention from the international spotlight. It seems violance and terroism is the only thing that is on the media anymore.

[TheNoNamedOne]

By "us" do you mean "you?

Not at all. You had mentioned it on the forums in the open before.

Ok, glad we got the issue of this thread not being about you cleared up.

Can anyone who is Buddhist (or not) point us to statements by Buddhist orgs and their leaders that denounce the violent protests in Tibet and also denounce the Dalai Lama for not denouncing them?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

From here



Religious Voices for Peace: A Call to Understanding

At a time when religious bigotry and xenophobia are on the rise, there is a critical need for religious leaders around the world to speak out urging understanding and respect among people of different religious traditions and condemnations of religious bigotry. But many are silent.

In an effort to promote one powerful way that religious women and men can combat hatred and violence, the Tanenbaum Center gathers the statements of religious leaders and publicizes them. We hope to inspire other religious leaders to harness religion as a force for peace. In the face of the current rise in religious hatred, the Tanenbaum Center remains committed to preventing and resolving conflicts perpetrated in the name of religion.
comes this


"The very concept of war is out of date. Destruction of your neighbor as an enemy is essentially a destruction of yourself."

- The Dalai Lama, Buddhist, 9/22/2003

http://www.tanenbaum.org/voices_for_peace.html

[TheNoNamedOne]

Interesting, Eel. To me it seems as though the quote is one of addressing war waged by nation states and the "neighbor" is more of a metaphor for that. I don't think he includes direct action to protect oneself or another from targeted suffering as a part of that.

As of now, I haven't seen any quotes in the news stories by the Dalai Lama condemming the violence going on in Tibet by Tibetans now, or past uprisings in the past -- all direct action, which I think is directed at the source of what they view as causing suffering and what has also been described as cultural genocide.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Perhaps you should do some research on Tibet. The whole reason tibet lost thier country, is becuase they believe in non-violent practices. When the chinese came in and took over thier country, they didn't fire a single shot, with the exeption of a few rebals. Theirs bad apples in every basket.

"With the exception of a few rebels" kind of makes not firing a "single shot" contradictory, jrocka. I don't think they were quite the extreme sheep you made them out to be. There was a clear uprising in 1959 by Tibetans that was quashed.

Not sure why someone would view those wanting to be independent and protect their cultural identity with force when force and coercion is being threatened and forced on to them as "bad apples".

[Asshat]

Interesting, Eel. To me it seems as though the quote is one of addressing war waged by nation states and the "neighbor" is more of a metaphor for that. I don't think he includes direct action to protect oneself or another from targeted suffering as a part of that.

As of now, I haven't seen any quotes in the news stories by the Dalai Lama condemming the violence going on in Tibet by Tibetans now, or past uprisings in the past -- all direct action, which I think is directed at the source of what they view as causing suffering and what has also been described as cultural genocide.

Described by cultural genocide (what a catchy term) by whom? Many Chinese also practice Tibetan Buddism. Fairly every religious organization out there issues a statement at one time or another deploring war.

In this instance however, (going on news reports) the "war" waged by Tibetans has been limited to protests with stone throwing being the violence. Granted, that is enough in China to be shot, (visions of flowers in tank barrels) but it is hardly violence given the other conflicts and real genocide occuring.

Also, as I considered your OP into the evening, I imagine that the Dali Llama, being but a man after all, has been in exile for 20 years. That has to tell on any person, don't you think?

Honestly, I do not completely understand what is behind all this from a historicaly standpoint.

My bottom line I suppose would be that I am against any violence, but I can understand a people driven to it. Yet I can not answer for those men involved with it, or those religious groups who will or who will not comment on it.

I can only answer for me.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Described by cultural genocide (what a catchy term) by whom?

What, Umi, didja think I just made up the phrase?

By this Tibetan in exile for one:

Exiled Tibetan official slams 'cultural genocide' (http://www.tibet.com/NewsRoom/samdhong1.htm)

8 July 2002: The Globe and Mail

Toronto - The man regarded by exiled Tibetans as their prime minister accused China on Monday of engaging in "a kind of cultural genocide" in his homeland but said he was hopeful Beijing would soon open negotiations to resolve more than a half century of dispute over the Himalayan region.
"What we are seeing is the disappearance of a nation and civilization," Samdhong Rinpoche said of the alleged settlement of millions of Chinese in Tibet.

More here (http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983)...

and here (http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983)...

and here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/01/china.jonathanwatts)...

and some more (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/16/wtibet116.xml)...

and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide) is the term explained in wiki fer ya, Umi. Enjoy the reading.

[Asshat]

What, Umi, didja think I just made up the phrase?

By this Tibetan in exile for one:



More here (http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983)...

and here (http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983)...

and here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/01/china.jonathanwatts)...

and some more (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/16/wtibet116.xml)...

and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide) is the term explained in wiki fer ya, Umi. Enjoy the reading.

Ah. The media. Thanks. I saw yesterday how the storm in Atlanta was "deadly" etc. Leave it to the media to come up with "cultural genocide!"

Easy one to Google eh?

[TheNoNamedOne]

The media? Obviously you didn't do yer homework and read who the phrase was used by and look at the term in wiki. Not rocket science, ya know.

[Asshat]

The media? Obviously you didn't do yer homework and read who the phrase was used by and look at the term in wiki. Not rocket science, ya know.

Er, yeah, Google King. If you don't know what you're talking about, Google it! And if it isn't on the internet, it never happened. :thumbup:

Plenty of genocide going on in the world right now TP. I hardly posses the Rocket Scientist intellect to somehow get wrapped around the axle on "Cultural Genocide." Pretty hard to happen with Tibetan Buddism, as their spin doctors have done a great job of convincing the world that they represent "Buddhism."

After all, you bought off on it.

[Jrocka83]

"With the exception of a few rebels" kind of makes not firing a "single shot" contradictory, jrocka. I don't think they were quite the extreme sheep you made them out to be. There was a clear uprising in 1959 by Tibetans that was quashed.

Not sure why someone would view those wanting to be independent and protect their cultural identity with force when force and coercion is being threatened and forced on to them as "bad apples".

Your absolutley right TP.

[Asshat]

Your absolutley right TP.

Jockra, are you Buddhist?

[okisteve]

Described by cultural genocide (what a catchy term) by whom? Many Chinese also practice Tibetan Buddism. Fairly every religious organization out there issues a statement at one time or another deploring war.

In this instance however, (going on news reports) the "war" waged by Tibetans has been limited to protests with stone throwing being the violence. Granted, that is enough in China to be shot, (visions of flowers in tank barrels) but it is hardly violence given the other conflicts and real genocide occuring.

Also, as I considered your OP into the evening, I imagine that the Dali Llama, being but a man after all, has been in exile for 20 years. That has to tell on any person, don't you think?

Honestly, I do not completely understand what is behind all this from a historicaly standpoint.



I think there is a good case for the term "cultural genocide" being used, although that is probably not the intention of the current Chinese regime. The Han Chinese moved into Tibet as a land grab pure and simple, knowing that their own population was growing so fast that they would need to resettle a lot of people. They may have tried to disembody the culture but have only succeeded in making Lhasa into a Buddhist Disneyland and a city just like every other Chinese city.

Overwhelm the culture would be more accurate, I say.

[Jrocka83]

Jockra, are you Buddhist?

Yes, I am.

[Asshat]

Yes, I am.

Do you practice from one of the four Tibet schools of thought, or a Japanese form?

[Jrocka83]

Do you practice from one of the four Tibet schools of thought, or a Japanese form?

A am a part of the Jaling Tibetan Cutltural center of Baltimore Maryland. I was taken to refuge there and became a buddhist there. I am a Tibetan Buddhist, the Lobsang Liniage. My Buddhist name is Lobsang Sherab.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

My porn name is Harry Ploughman...

[TheNoNamedOne]

Do you practice from one of the four Tibet schools of thought, or a Japanese form?

Umi, since you were so bold to ask such a personal question in the open and are waiting for the answer in the open (and have received it) as part of this discussion, perhaps you'd share with us your branch or school of Buddhism.

Nichiren Buddhism/Souka Gakkai???

Thanks in advance.:)

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Scientists say they have evidence to show that Buddhists really are happier and calmer than other people. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm%5BSIZE=2)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Umi seems to contradict that with his mood swings he's shown towards me (looove me today ~~...haaate me tomooorrow ~~ [isn't that a popular song now?]). Maybe he is an anomaly that falls outside of the majority of Buddhists.

???

[Jrocka83]

Umi seems to contradict that with his mood swings he's shown towards me (looove me today ~~...haaate me tomooorrow ~~ [isn't that a popular song now?]). Maybe he is an anomaly that falls outside of the majority of Buddhists.

???

I think most Buddhists are like most humans, umm.. human.

[yengsel]

New here - so I will tread carefully <g>.

First let me say - I enjoy study of Tibetan Buddhism and if asked what my religion is (which I hate to be asked) I would offer Buddhism for an answer (even though I do not agree that it is a religion). I also have a significant number of Tibetans (as in from Tibet and the children of people who escaped) in my extended family.

Although Tibetans are generally peace loving folks and although we in the West like to romanticize Buddhism - Tibetan Buddhism in particular thanks to the efforts of HH the Dalai Lama to keep the face of Tibet alive and his awareness of the media - the fact is the Tibetans fired many shots during the various attempts by China to overtake the country. At one point children were being trained to fight. Their isolation from the world and the concern of Lhasa to not join forces with the Khampa rebels (who may well have held the passes into Tibet with the Lhasan forces) because they were afraid of the potential fall out internally were the lion's share of why Tibet fell to China.

Although one can certainly google to find information on this, there are more scholarly articles illustrating the connections between Buddhism and violence - including Tibetan Buddhism. The book "In Exile from the Land of Snows" is an excellent and early account of this time in Tibet. Many of the Tibetans I know who lived through this time agree it is a fairly accurate account and the cross referencing I have done regarding the research appears accurate thus far (although my efforts have been slight). It does not paint HH the Dalai Lama in an overly glorious way; neither does it shy away from the violence that happened or the fact that the Tibetans tried to fight China but simply did not have the skill or might to ward off the superpower. There was no Ghandi sitting in meditation hoping this would stop the Chinese - there was open warfare. The Tibetans were simply outgunned.

The Khampa (from the Kham region of Tibet) were considered one of the most devout and fierce warrior societies of Tibet during the 1950s. Known for their barbaric behaviour; they were also known for their strict adherence to Buddhist ways. Although some would say this is impossible I would say it's not my place to say.

In more general vein one merely has to look at the Statement of Repentance issued in 1992 by the Soto Zen Sect to see that Buddhism has certainly had it's share of violence associated with it.

It you look at the actions of the Chinese government - including forced relocation of Hans (not all of these relocations are voluntary), the impregnating of Tibetan women with soldiers' children, the systematic disassembling of the cornerstones of Tibetan Buddhism and culture through gov't regulations regarding practices, the deliberate destruction of temples, monasteries and holy sites etc. there can be no question of cultural genocide.

I understand fully why Tibetans are using the Olympics as a means of gaining attention. I hope it gets them somewhere.

I hope this is of some use to the conversation.

[Jrocka83]

New here - so I will tread carefully <g>.

First let me say - I enjoy study of Tibetan Buddhism and if asked what my religion is (which I hate to be asked) I would offer Buddhism for an answer (even though I do not agree that it is a religion). I also have a significant number of Tibetans (as in from Tibet and the children of people who escaped) in my extended family.

Although Tibetans are generally peace loving folks and although we in the West like to romanticize Buddhism - Tibetan Buddhism in particular thanks to the efforts of HH the Dalai Lama to keep the face of Tibet alive and his awareness of the media - the fact is the Tibetans fired many shots during the various attempts by China to overtake the country. At one point children were being trained to fight. Their isolation from the world and the concern of Lhasa to not join forces with the Khampa rebels (who may well have held the passes into Tibet with the Lhasan forces) because they were afraid of the potential fall out internally were the lion's share of why Tibet fell to China.

Although one can certainly google to find information on this, there are more scholarly articles illustrating the connections between Buddhism and violence - including Tibetan Buddhism. The book "In Exile from the Land of Snows" is an excellent and early account of this time in Tibet. Many of the Tibetans I know who lived through this time agree it is a fairly accurate account and the cross referencing I have done regarding the research appears accurate thus far (although my efforts have been slight). It does not paint HH the Dalai Lama in an overly glorious way; neither does it shy away from the violence that happened or the fact that the Tibetans tried to fight China but simply did not have the skill or might to ward off the superpower. There was no Ghandi sitting in meditation hoping this would stop the Chinese - there was open warfare. The Tibetans were simply outgunned.

The Khampa (from the Kham region of Tibet) were considered one of the most devout and fierce warrior societies of Tibet during the 1950s. Known for their barbaric behaviour; they were also known for their strict adherence to Buddhist ways. Although some would say this is impossible I would say it's not my place to say.

In more general vein one merely has to look at the Statement of Repentance issued in 1992 by the Soto Zen Sect to see that Buddhism has certainly had it's share of violence associated with it.

It you look at the actions of the Chinese government - including forced relocation of Hans (not all of these relocations are voluntary), the impregnating of Tibetan women with soldiers' children, the systematic disassembling of the cornerstones of Tibetan Buddhism and culture through gov't regulations regarding practices, the deliberate destruction of temples, monasteries and holy sites etc. there can be no question of cultural genocide.

I understand fully why Tibetans are using the Olympics as a means of gaining attention. I hope it gets them somewhere.

I hope this is of some use to the conversation.

Are you in Okinawa?

[Sif: wife of Thor]

Nichiren Buddhism/Souka Gakkai???

I'm a member.

[BLESSED29]

HERE Some reading about the Dalai Lama very interesting


http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/25/dalai-lama-on-cia-payroll/

[TheNoNamedOne]

Jrocka, would you find it insulting if someone referred to the leader of Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama, as a traveling clown or joke? More so if another Buddhist from another branch of Buddhism leveled that, or just the same if a non-Buddhist did?

I imagine Tibetan Buddhists in Tibet feel such derogatory language to their spiritual leader is insulting. Just curious if you, too, would, since you are not Tibetan by birth and one amongst the diaspora of Tibetan Buddhism.

[Jrocka83]

Jrocka, would you find it insulting if someone referred to the leader of Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama, as a traveling clown or joke? More so if another Buddhist from another branch of Buddhism leveled that, or just the same if a non-Buddhist did?

I imagine Tibetan Buddhists in Tibet feel such derogatory language to their spiritual leader is insulting. Just curious if you, too, would, since you are not Tibetan by birth and one amongst the diaspora of Tibetan Buddhism.

The truth is, I wouldn't. Just like any buddhist, the Dalai Lama is just a human. His title and political role has nothing to do with who he is. The tibetans have chosen the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyetso did not choose to be the Dalai Lama, wrather he excepted the position. Now in Tibet he is recognized as the supreme King of Tibet, God of Tibet, Reincarnation of the Buddha of Compasion, and spiritual leader. If you go into any Tibetan Buddhist Shrine or Temple you will see a framed picture, of H.H. Dalai lama, usaully to right side of the Buddha.

But he himself has said over and over again "I am just a simple monk".
I except him as my spiritual leader, but I don't expect anyone else to be the same.

If you ever listen to his talks or read his books, you will find most of his discourse is non-secterian and universal. His focus is of the human element. I find the Dalai Lama to be very wise, compasionate, and very human. That is why I like him.

[Jrocka83]

I'm a member.
I got that feeling from you, with the lotus in your signature and all, It gave it away a little.:)

[TheNoNamedOne]

If you ever listen to his talks or read his books, you will find most of his discourse is non-secterian and universal. His focus is of the human element.

Why do you think other Buddhists would view him as a traveling clown or joke to Buddhism if his words are non-sectarian and universal in nature?

[Jrocka83]

Why do you think other Buddhists would view him as a traveling clown or joke to Buddhism if his words are non-sectarian and universal in nature?

I can't answer that for you.:) That is an opinion, and its not my opinion.:) Why don't you go ask someone who feels that way?:)

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/