How the war has changed everything...

[socalheart]

I found this to be an excellent article about this war's veterans and their families.

For few, Iraq war has changed everything (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080308/ap_on_re_us/5_years_in_iraq_changed_lives)
By KIMBERLY HEFLING,
Associated Press Writer
Sat Mar 8, 5:45 PM ET

Five years after U.S. troops invaded Iraq, there are many tears — though not everyone is crying. For the great majority of Americans, this is a war seen from afar. They turn off the news and forget about what is happening a world away.

Then there's the other war, the one that's a very vivid and present part of some Americans' lives.

It's the war that more than a million U.S. soldiers have fought, leaving nearly 4,000 dead and more than 29,000 wounded in action. The one in which thousands of contractors rushed in to serve and to make a buck — though some paid the ultimate price, as well.

Around military bases across America, vacations are planned around deployment schedules. Mini baby booms occur nine months after troops come home. Support groups for widows and injured soldiers have come together.

At small town National Guard armories, the focus has shifted from one weekend a month to filling out life insurance forms and packing a rucksack for war.


Yes, it is a one sided article. That's the point of it. It's a humanities piece. I didn't post this to start arguements about the rights and wrongs of the war. I posted this to remind us of the sacrifices being made. I'm not talking about religious or political martyrs, but of husbands, wives, children and parents.

I think that sometimes, we get so wrapped up in local scandals and personal problems that a little reminder of the quiet sacrifice of the few in the bigger world helps to ground us. I hope you enjoy the article for what it's worth. Feel free to reflect. ;)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Hmmm..."sacrifice." I am not sure if these are sacrifices when payment is expected for what they are doing. Sounds more like a calculated barter contract -- I will do this and I expect this to be given in return to me and my family.

Using a word like sacrifice to describe professional warriors being paid for their services to me is just a spin.

[Tony Stacks]

Hmmm..."sacrifice." I am not sure if these are sacrifices when payment is expected for what they are doing. Sounds more like a calculated barter contract -- I will do this and I expect this to be given in return to me and my family.

Using a word like sacrifice to describe professional warriors being paid for their services to me is just a spin.

But the U.S. Military is over worked, under paid and is doing a job NOT just anyone can do and therefore they are making sacrifices everyday.:army:
Semper Fi

[TheNoNamedOne]

But the U.S. Military is over worked, under paid and is doing a job NOT just anyone can do and therefore they are making sacrifices everyday.:army:
Semper Fi

All overstretched militaries at war are overworked. Not a sacrifice. Part of the job. War is never predictable. That is understood, and therefore part of the contract made willingly when one signs up to become a professional soldier.

Not a sacrifice. There is payment and expectations by both sides to live up to the contract.

[Tony Stacks]

All overstretched militaries at war are overworked. Not a sacrifice. Part of the job. War is never predictable. That is understood, and therefore part of the contract made willingly when one signs up to become a professional soldier.

Not a sacrifice. There is payment and expectations by both sides to live up to the contract.

I see what you're saying however it is a sacrifice.

Now what about those that were drafted? Now that is definitly more than just a scarifice. :army:

[Tony Stacks]

All overstretched militaries at war are overworked. Not a sacrifice. Part of the job. War is never predictable. That is understood, and therefore part of the contract made willingly when one signs up to become a professional soldier.

Not a sacrifice. There is payment and expectations by both sides to live up to the contract.


So just because they get paid means it's not a scarifice? That seems like a faulty logic. Same with cops and firemen. It's not a sacrifice because they're getting paid? I don't buy it.

[quiltpig]

Hmmm..."sacrifice." I am not sure if these are sacrifices when payment is expected for what they are doing. Sounds more like a calculated barter contract -- I will do this and I expect this to be given in return to me and my family.

Using a word like sacrifice to describe professional warriors being paid for their services to me is just a spin.


Actually you are wrong. There are several definitions for the word sacrifice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice


sac·ri·fice /ˈsækrəˌfaɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sak-ruh-fahys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -ficed, -fic·ing.
–noun
1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4. the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5. a loss incurred in selling something below its value.
6. Also called sacrifice bunt, sacrifice hit. Baseball. a bunt made when there are fewer than two players out, not resulting in a double play, that advances the base runner nearest home without an error being committed if there is an attempt to put the runner out, and that results in either the batter's being put out at first base, reaching first on an error made in the attempt for the put-out, or being safe because of an attempt to put out another runner.
–verb (used with object)
7. to make a sacrifice or offering of.
8. to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.
9. to dispose of (goods, property, etc.) regardless of profit.
10. Baseball. to cause the advance of (a base runner) by a sacrifice.
–verb (used without object) 11. Baseball. to make a sacrifice: He sacrificed with two on and none out.
12. to offer or make a sacrifice.

So you see, just because someone is paid to fight in a war, they can still sacrifice their lives, limbs, and well being as can their families.

[gunny8511]

All overstretched militaries at war are overworked. Not a sacrifice. Part of the job. War is never predictable. That is understood, and therefore part of the contract made willingly when one signs up to become a professional soldier.

Not a sacrifice. There is payment and expectations by both sides to live up to the contract.

So, those of us that volunteer to do this make no sacrifices, because we're paid a salary? That's a pretty childish stance.

You're right; I've stayed in for 16 years for the money...I'm getting rich on this deal!

Pffft...

[TheNoNamedOne]

I see what you're saying however it is a sacrifice.

Now what about those that were drafted? Now that is definitly more than just a scarifice. :army:

In that case it is the government sacrificing their citizens -- not the citizens sacrificing themselves, since they are being forced to fight.

Is the virgin girl drugged and being led up the alter by an Aztec or Mayan priest making a sacrifice of herself, or is that society sacrificing her? What about those not agreeing to it but being thrown into a volcano?

Yeah, sacrifice all right -- but just who is doing the sacrificing?

[socalheart]

I was really hoping that the spirit of the article wouldn't get lost in an arguement over the definition of a single word, but that was too much to hope for it seems. The definition of a word like "sacrifice" depends on the viewpoint and possibly personal causes and loyalties of the reader.

[gunny8511]

In that case it is the government sacrificing their citizens -- not the citizens sacrificing themselves, since they are being forced to fight.

Is the virgin girl drugged and being led up the alter by an Aztec or Mayan priest making a sacrifice of herself, or is that society sacrificing her? What about those not agreeing to it but being thrown into a volcano?

Yeah, sacrifice all right -- but just who is doing the sacrificing?

Still dodging the issue and clinging to that feeble argument?

Excuse me...my bacon is about done (mmmm...fried pig is good...) :thumbup:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Socal, I find the discussion about the term sacrifice essential to the discussion because it is an important part of the OP. If you want, though, I can split this off into another thread. Let me know.

[TheNoNamedOne]

So, those of us that volunteer to do this make no sacrifices, because we're paid a salary? That's a pretty childish stance.

You're right; I've stayed in for 16 years for the money...I'm getting rich on this deal!

Pffft...

Looks like you just chose the wrong career path if you are sore about your peers making more than you. Hindsight is perfect, I guess.

[gunny8511]

Socal, I find the discussion about the term sacrifice essential to the discussion because it is an important part of the OP. If you want, though, I can split this off into another thread. Let me know.

You're STILL not addressing the fact that sacrifices are being made (see quiltpig above if you're confused about the definition of sacrifice).

You must be tired...all of the dodging of facts and leaping to conclusions...

[TheNoNamedOne]

Actually you are wrong. There are several definitions for the word sacrifice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice


sac·ri·fice /ˈsækrəˌfaɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sak-ruh-fahys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -ficed, -fic·ing.
–noun
1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4. the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5. a loss incurred in selling something below its value.
6. Also called sacrifice bunt, sacrifice hit. Baseball. a bunt made when there are fewer than two players out, not resulting in a double play, that advances the base runner nearest home without an error being committed if there is an attempt to put the runner out, and that results in either the batter's being put out at first base, reaching first on an error made in the attempt for the put-out, or being safe because of an attempt to put out another runner.
–verb (used with object)
7. to make a sacrifice or offering of.
8. to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.
9. to dispose of (goods, property, etc.) regardless of profit.
10. Baseball. to cause the advance of (a base runner) by a sacrifice.
–verb (used without object) 11. Baseball. to make a sacrifice: He sacrificed with two on and none out.
12. to offer or make a sacrifice.

So you see, just because someone is paid to fight in a war, they can still sacrifice their lives, limbs, and well being as can their families.

lmao! Give me a break! Well, hell, I guess just about any person in any job can say they are sacrificing with a list of all those to cover and twist anyway one would like.

If everyone is sacrificing, kind of takes away any special meaning of the word.

[gunny8511]

Looks like you just chose the wrong career path if you are sore about your peers making more than you. Hindsight is perfect, I guess.

The only thing that I'm "sore" about is people that don't appreciate the sacrifices of those that protect their freedom to spout drivel such as yours. I hope that you're enjoying your bliss. :army:

[TheNoNamedOne]

The only thing that I'm "sore" about is people that don't appreciate the sacrifices of those that protect their freedom to spout drivel such as yours. I hope that you're enjoying your bliss. :army:

You mean Sadam Hussein was threatening my freedom with his WMD's?

I can offer respect to professionals who do a job they contract for without having to wrap it up in emotional words that are inaccurate. But feel free to continue on doing such a a thing -- cowboy Bush will be proud of ya while he reads books to kids upside down while the U.S. is under attack.

I guess he was sacrificing his time for the kiddies, eh?

[Tony Stacks]

Here's my 2 yen TP. In my opinion your posts have been very insulting. Now usually I respect your point of view whether I agree or not but this time I don't. I don't understand how military, cops, firemen people who are willing give their lives for others are not making sacrifices just because they get a salary.

[gunny8511]

You mean Sadam Hussein was threatening my freedom with his WMD's?

I can offer respect to professionals who do a job they contract for without having to wrap it up in emotional words that are inaccurate. But feel free to continue on doing such a a thing -- cowboy Bush will be proud of ya while he reads books to kids upside down while the U.S. is under attack.

I guess he was sacrificing his time for the kiddies, eh?

Still dodging the issue...painting a muddy picture and diverting things. What a shock!

What in the hell does Bush's actions have to do with the SACRIFICES (did you get that?) that our military members make on a daily basis? Um...none? If you truly believe that our military personnel don't make sacrifices, then there's no help for you. You need to just keep your head firmly buried in the sand.

[quiltpig]

lmao! Give me a break! Well, hell, I guess just about any person in any job can say they are sacrificing with a list of all those to cover and twist anyway one would like.

If everyone is sacrificing, kind of takes away any special meaning of the word.

Well, you are free to laugh. Just as you are free to not honor the sacrifices made by the men and women in the military and their families. However, by definition, they are making sacrifices. Just because they are being compensated for said sacrifices makes them no less honorable, nor less valuable.

The article was refering to the deaths, and disabilities of a few military personnel. The sacrifices they and their families have made. In my opinion sacrificing your life, or well being in NO way takes away from the special meaning of the word.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Here's my 2 yen TP. In my opinion your posts have been very insulting. Now usually I respect your point of view whether I agree or not but this time I don't. I don't understand how military, cops, firemen people who are willing give their lives for others are not making sacrifices just because they get a salary.

Tony, when a person decides to become a police officer or firefighter, they are not willing to just give their life for someone. They are willing to take risks that put their lives in danger, sure -- but that is not sacrificing their life.

Now, there are moments when split second decisions are made that may be the result of spiking adrenaline or other chemicals in the mind that take away from rational thought and cause a person to lose their life and another to keep it, but those are reactions within all of us everyday that we are all capable of. Nothing special about a police officer, firefighter, or soldier displaying it.

Even dogs display actions that seem as if they are sacrificing themselves for others. Hmmm...well... maybe they are. They are not in a pay contract relationship they can understand and rationalize on the choice to enter that. Looks like the dogs may have a leg up on the Devil Dogs when it comes to the term sacrifice. lol.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Still dodging the issue...painting a muddy picture and diverting things. What a shock!

Looks like sour grapes from someone who just wants others to bow down and idolize their "sacrifice."

YOU WILL RESPECT MY SACRIFICE. I SACRIFICE FOR YOU. RESPECT ME. I DEMAND IT OF YOU. YOU NEED TO RESPECT MY SACRIFICE.

Perty please. Look at me. Making less than my peers that graduated with me. C'mon, guys. I'm sacrificing for you. Respect me because of that -- not because I made a mature decision to become a professional soldier that signed a contract like an adult. I want respect because I am sacrificing something. We all sacrifice. But my sacrifice is bigger than your sacrifice.

lol.

[gunny8511]

Looks like sour grapes from someone who just wants others to bow down and idolize their "sacrifice."

YOU WILL RESPECT MY SACRIFICE. I SACRIFICE FOR YOU. RESPECT ME. I DEMAND IT OF YOU. YOU NEED TO RESPECT MY SACRIFICE.

Perty please. Look at me. Making less than my peers that graduated with me. C'mon, guys. I'm sacrificing for you. Respect me because of that -- not because I made a mature decision to become a professional soldier that signed a contract like an adult. I want respect because I am sacrificing something. We all sacrifice. But my sacrifice is bigger than your sacrifice.

lol.

Now you're just being childish and irrational. Sour grapes? I don't regret my career choice. I already said that I'm not in it for the money; you either cannot read very well, or are easily confused.

You STILL ignore the facts. Do you honestly believe that people who choose careers such as this do so for the money or benefits? Get a grip! We do it knowing that our lives will quite possibly be in grave danger, so that we can help and defend others...even people such as yourself.

Have you ever stopped to think that this might be a calling, and not a copout, or whatever you would phrase it as? Your childish poking of fun is just that; childish. It's not very becoming. You should find a new trick; this one isn't making you look very good.

[TheNoNamedOne]

You STILL ignore the facts. Do you honestly believe that people who choose careers such as this do so for the money or benefits? Get a grip! We do it knowing that our lives will quite possibly be in grave danger, so that we can help and defend others...even people such as yourself.

I wonder how many would still be doing it if all they got were room and board from it?

Why aren't you satisfied with just people respecting you for entering into a contract as an adult and then fulfilling that contract?

You are not sacrificing. You said it yourself -- you are doing something (perhaps a calling for you) and your sense of satisfaction from that is your compensation that you seem to be fairly paid with. Payment can come in several ways.

[gunny8511]

And along the way, I've made plenty of SACRIFICES that you refuse to acknowledge. You tried to claim that the term "sacrifice" didn't apply by definition, then had the definition pointed out to you, then dodged the issue, and resorted to childish bullshit.

Can we put this horse to bed, or should we keep beating it? We're obviously not going to see eye to eye on it. You're too emotionally wrapped up in your stance to listen to logic.

[TheNoNamedOne]

And along the way, I've made plenty of SACRIFICES that you refuse to acknowledge.

I can respect your decisions and actions that stem from your contract in whatever form you receive payment or satisfaction in.

As for childishness, you got so hurt by the discussion you went and changed your siggy as if you think that jab is going to hurt me in some way. Funny.

Looks like someone is too emotionally wound up in trying to insult.

[gunny8511]

I can respect your decisions and actions that stem from your contract in whatever form you receive payment or satisfaction in.

As for childishness, you got so hurt by the discussion you went and changed your siggy as if you think that jab is going to hurt me in some way. Funny.

Looks like someone is too emotionally wound up in trying to insult.

Nope. I've enjoyed poking fun at the veggie thing for a while now. Granted, you prompted the siggie change, but it wasn't anything new for me.

Like I said, can we put this crap to bed yet, or what?

[Trail]

TP, If you are not willing to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them. These men and women do not make life sacrifices by your definition but damn it, they give more than most. There are too many that give their all, there are too many that are still children, there are too many that are willing to fight for YOUR freedom to say what you want. Man up and show some respect whether you think the war is right or wrong. I am a proud US citizen and I’ll be damned if I let your drag down our troops.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP, If you are not willing to stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.

Trail, that is a worn out platitude.

These men and women do not make life sacrifices by your definition but damn it, they give more than most. There are too many that give their all, ...

*sigh*

Trail, what are they giving? You think they are giving their life? Wow... and here I thought it was being taken from them rather forcefully by the enemy that puts energy into resting it from them.

...there are too many that are still children, there are too many that are willing to fight for YOUR freedom to say what you want.

Well, hell... then I wonder why we need to offer them a paycheck and educational benefits and bonuses just to induce enough to fight for my freedom to say what I want to say. Patriotism and wanting to make the world safe for TP to say what he wants should be all it takes that makes them happy to "give" their life for me.

Man up and show some respect whether you think the war is right or wrong. I am a proud US citizen and I’ll be damned if I let your drag down our troops.

Trail, I have already said I can respect people in the military for agreeing to keep their end of the contract in exchange for whatever they sign up for. I just do not view it as a sacrifice. They barter for what they and the government and citizens get out of it. There is no "giving" about it. Of course, I know it sounds romantic to say "give" and "sacrifice" but it is not. They are calculated decisions and people seek satisfaction from those things they value and can get by being a professional soldier.

[Trail]

TP, where are you from and what country do you thank for your existance?

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP, where are you from and what country do you thank for your existance?

I am from the U.S.

Not sure why a country should be thanked for my existence. Perhaps you mean another word -- like "freedoms" or "rights." Is that it? Which one?

I thank my parents for my existence. But even then I don't thank them. I just acknowledge they produced me. Should I thank my dad for shooting another million sperm that he saw fit to not let swim straight, fast, and strong enough to produce another? Terrible dad in playing favorites to one sperm out of a million.

Sorry, Trail. Just couldn't resist. Too easy, here.

[Trail]

My question is....

How can you be from the US and not feel a need to show respect to those who, now and in the past, keep it safe from harm and threat? Don't you feel a need for some type of alligence with your fellow citizens?

... even though they do get a paycheck for what they do.

As far as the choice of the word "existence," yes you do owe your existence to your mother and father but what about the war-zone free country you grew up in?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Good questions, Trail.

My question is....

How can you be from the US and not feel a need to show respect to those who, now and in the past, keep it safe from harm and threat?

Trail, I have already said I can respect those in the military past and present for fullfilling the obligations they stepped forward and agreed to do in their contracts. I think this is the third time now I have said this. But, I do not view it as a sacrifice or them giving their lives for me. They hired themselves out to a government with a national policy, and mind you not always a national policy based on right or wrong -- not on national interests at the expense of other weaker nations.

The word "respect" is adequate enough to explain my feelings to soldiers in different conflicts on a case by case approach, and, therefore, I do not feel a need to dress that with "sacrifice" and "give". Isn't the word "respect" enough for you...or does it need to be piled on with more emotional words?

Don't you feel a need for some type of alligence with your fellow citizens?

Not as a default, and not if it means blindly supporting a uniform just because it is the uniform of my nationality. I am an Earth Being before any nationality, and I hope I will not let some pride tweaked by history teachers or society put an artificial construction up before a biological reality and a universal sense of justice.

I like to believe and hope it is true that I am a thinking man and not one just in step to the cadence of the whole merely because they are going the direction everyone seems to be feeling happy and fuzzy about.

As far as the choice of the word "existence," yes you do owe your existence to your mother and father but what about the war-zone free country you grew up in?

Yes, I respect that professional military persons have played a part in helping secure that -- that is not to say I respect those that allowed themselves to be used unjustly for unjust adventures without dissent. I haven't said anything contrary to that.

[DougP]

Oh what the heck, just to stir the pot a bit.

Its not a sacrifice, its a privilege to serve ones country.:D

[Black Orchid]

bottom line about this war

time for them guys and gals over there to gt they ass back home.. ASAP.

[Asshat]

Having been a member of the Great Gun Club myself for over 20 years, I have a hard time with anyone stating "I" must acknowledge the sacrifices made by these volunteers.

However, when I see these people coming from a war missing pieces of their bodies, and pieces of their minds, the word sacrifice does come to me. No amount of money paid to them will compensate the loss they have experienced. So that is a sacrifice.

But please, do not tell me how this was a sacrifice made for me. I did not ask for it, I did not want you to go, and I never agreed to it.

You have helped our government create more enemies than friends, and you have made some cronies rich once again. You sacrifice for politicians who will never see a shot fired, and you sacrifice for a whole industry who makes money on the war machine.

You did not make the world safer for me, and you went to war with the full knowledge, or at least the information was available to you...to understand the risks. For all of you who have volunteered to take these risks, please come back whole.

[okisteve]

Oh what the heck, just to stir the pot a bit.

Its not a sacrifice, its a privilege to serve ones country.:D


A few demented people say the same thing about paying taxes!

[DougP]

A few demented people say the same thing about paying taxes!

And being able to choose where you can eat, walk, drink and shop. Crazy people out there:w00t:

[Muku]

I was really hoping that the spirit of the article wouldn't get lost in an arguement over the definition of a single word, but that was too much to hope for it seems. The definition of a word like "sacrifice" depends on the viewpoint and possibly personal causes and loyalties of the reader.


Socal :thumbup: great post and topic, things should be taken into perspective and not getting into semantics about the use of this word or that.

Sadly it seems that cant be done. :thumbdown:

[Trail]

TP has made some good points and so have the rest of you. I feel a need to show gratitude more than others. I'm sorry to say you ALL need to show respects but I feel most vets/service members have earned at least a little bit of it. It hit a nerve if you could not tell. Don’t fight against the people who try to make this nation great and keep it safe, fight the government who is trying to bring it down.

[Asshat]

Don’t fight against the people who try to make this nation great and keep it safe, fight the government who is trying to bring it down.

It is part and parcel though, when some people come on here and sneer about "peacenicks" and liberals, while painting themselves as the True Americans. It really pisses me off when active duty Marines state that they are sacrificing for the rest of us. Must be some new kind of Marine Corps.

The US Government is doing more now than it ever has to compensate those who are in the military, and I sure as heck don't need anyone telling me to appreciate sacrifices, when I see the way retirees are treated on this island by the hospitals, and the superior way in which these self-proclaimed heros treat those around them who are not in the military.

I could go on here. A warrior doesn't ask anyone to "appreciate" him, nor does he flount his service.

[Trail]

Umi, I'm sorry it upsets you. To each his own. I am not a "warrior" but I am the wife, sister, aunt, cousin and friend to some of them.

I cannot answer for the behavior of many no more than you can.

[Asshat]

Umi, I'm sorry it upsets you. To each his own. I am not a "warrior" but I am the wife, sister, aunt, cousin and friend to some of them.

I cannot answer for the behavior of many no more than you can.

I stated the small aspect of the OP that pisses me off...and that was Marines stating that we should respect their sacrifice. As a former Marine, I retain that right, so no apology required.

The current level of family support and quality of life are unprecedented in any military service. I find it difficult to heap on accolades when this is still an all volunteer force.

I did my time because I loved my job...not because I wanted to "protect" America. I don't recall hearing anyone discuss that they were serving to protect freedom, and those who felt they were, didn't feel it appropriate to mention it.

If a relative of a servicemember feels proud of what that person does, great. Tout it, no problem, I think that is the right way to feel. But expect me to feel the same way for loved one.

[happily_married_1206]

My husband is going for the 2nd time and though it hurts, i keep tabs on what is going on over there. Im proud that he chose to do something for our country to protect the freedoms that a lot of people take for granted. At the same time i wish he would have picked a little less dangerous mos. but hey all i can do is hope and pray. he leaves in a day. and i have 6 months and possibly longer to worry about whats going on.

[Son Kokujin]

All right...mow I'm pissed! To anyone who says that the military servicemembers aren't making sacrifices because their lives aren't all being made more hellish...quit drinking that Jim Jones Kool-Aid and liberate your cranium from your rectal cavity (in the literal sense, of course...if you really have it up there-you have plenty of further issues to deal with)!

People from all branches of the Military, as well as civilians, too are giving up some, if not more, of their rights, freedoms, health and well being, and in some cases-4, 000 and counting so far-their own lives. Yes they are getting paid and compensated, but not always. If an athlete, pop star, or talentless "recording artist" is "good "at whatever they do can make millions of dollars, but a servicemember , civilian government employee, or war veteran, is still struggling to make ends meet, dealing with serious injuries of even death, that is a problem!
Truth be told, many service members may not agree with the war in Iraq,and some don't even like or support Bush-but thay still honor their contracts and go anyway, because they are mature professionals, and many have families to support. Does the actions of the president justify the disrespect I see from those who feel that these men and women "aren't making enough" of a sacrifice?

[bikeguy74]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people not in the military have more of an opinion of what we do then military members. As for me everyone makes some kind of sacrifice i'm just an average guy with a more then average job. I don't do my job for accolades or anything like that I do my job because I love doing it, and get the best job satisfaction i've ever had.

[Son Kokujin]

It is part and parcel though, when some people come on here and sneer about "peacenicks" and liberals, while painting themselves as the True Americans. It really pisses me off when active duty Marines state that they are sacrificing for the rest of us. Must be some new kind of Marine Corps.

The US Government is doing more now than it ever has to compensate those who are in the military, and I sure as heck don't need anyone telling me to appreciate sacrifices, when I see the way retirees are treated on this island by the hospitals, and the superior way in which these self-proclaimed heros treat those around them who are not in the military.

I could go on here. A warrior doesn't ask anyone to "appreciate" him, nor does he flount his service.

Agreed. I nearly punched on of those self-important retirees off base about two weeks ago, because he muttered something about me and my wife (who is Okinawan, by the way). I told him that if he couldn't say it to my face, and retain some mamhood, he should have no business saying it at all. He then muttered something else, to which I bellowed back at him a few choice words, and got ready to fight. Fortunately, wifey calmed me down and told the retiree-in English-that he was acting no better than the idiot activists and politicians here, and that he should correct himself. The old turtle, embarrassed, simply turned and scooted off. I apologized to my wife and to her friend (who was in the car watching all this) for my outburst, but I also said that nobody should be so disrespectful, no matter their age, nationality, or prior profession, and I would not tolerate it.

[Oki alumni]

Back to the original question. How has the war changed things. Well, it's taught me that leadership believes that when "somebody hits you and runs away, you find someone ELSE you KNOW you can beat (whether they've done anything to YOU personally, or not), and kick the shit outta THEM". This deflects attention from the fact that the original bully got away in the first place, and that you "didn't want to 'waste' the effort" to track 'em down.

NOT something I enjoyed being taught, and additionally being told that "the end is in sight" on top of it. I served during the Viet-Nam era (never "in-country"), but the bull-shit smelled exactly the same then, as it does NOW.

Soldier on, Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines...YOU guys 'n gals ROCK DA HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!

-Oki Alumni:old:

[Son Kokujin]

Having been a member of the Great Gun Club myself for over 20 years, I have a hard time with anyone stating "I" must acknowledge the sacrifices made by these volunteers.

However, when I see these people coming from a war missing pieces of their bodies, and pieces of their minds, the word sacrifice does come to me. No amount of money paid to them will compensate the loss they have experienced. So that is a sacrifice.

But please, do not tell me how this was a sacrifice made for me. I did not ask for it, I did not want you to go, and I never agreed to it.

You have helped our government create more enemies than friends, and you have made some cronies rich once again. You sacrifice for politicians who will never see a shot fired, and you sacrifice for a whole industry who makes money on the war machine.

You did not make the world safer for me, and you went to war with the full knowledge, or at least the information was available to you...to understand the risks. For all of you who have volunteered to take these risks, please come back whole.

Good point made here...but I still respect those who volunteer to join...even if they don't necessarily support the current administration (and I don't blame them for that), yet they acknowledge that they have a job to do and a comittment to fufill.

Yes, I agree that the majority of all this can be drawn to the wealthy, heartless, warmongering powers that be who-like Don (A grown assed man shouldn't have a Buckwheat Hairstyle, no matter how much he's paid) King, are good at promoting fights and getting paid for them, as long as there is someone to do all the dirty work for a piece of the pie.