Change in feelings about Okinawa?

[Meliai]

I posted this originally in another thread and it was kindly suggested that I post it in a separate thread. So here it is:

Hi, this is my first post here but I've been reading the past couple of weeks. We lived off base until last week and have been here over a year. Really, I don't see what the big deal is about not having been able to go off base, aside from just not having the permission to do so. I spend my money here instead of supporting another economy and, from experience, mostly wasting it on unnecessary things.

Okinawans as a group, like all other humans, are not inherently better or worse than anyone else. One of the things I find most amusing about people's comments (not necessarily on JU) is how "nice the locals have always been". Certainly, to your face. It's a cultural difference and it's one of the first things you learn (or should have) about Japanese and Okinawan culture. They would rather, in general, lie to your face about what they think of you than be openly rude or offensive. But they will gossip behind your back if they are so inclined. And this trait doesn't reflect poorly on them because it is part of their way of life ... just like Americans tend to take people's behavior at face value.

I think the greatest irony comes from the fact that US forces have, in a way, allowed peace to prosper here. Japan as a whole hasn't always been the most peaceful of places. Okinawans, caught in the crossfire decades ago, stand out today for their cultural heritage and strong pacifistic nature ... but their now comparably sheltered lives, imo, are responsible for their lack of understanding of or interest in global politics and just how vulnerable a space they really occupy.

All in all, I can't wait until we move out of here. This is the poorest prefecture in Japan and it shows. The weather and humidity is a nightmare. Married with a young child, most of the attraction of off base activities isn't that high right now. The food was novel at first but, really, I can live without it just fine. And those are really personal preferences, not reflective of me *as an American*. Nevertheless, whatever charm the island held has been soured by this negativity aimed at ALL Americans and military personnel here. I don't care who actually believes what. The media, like it does everywhere else, will shape public opinion over time. And in most media outlets, Americans and our military can never do enough good to "make up" for any amount of bad.

[thistle]

Meliai, I think your post has a lot of good and valid points.
I am not military, am a foreigner who has lived in Okinawa for 14 years.
I brought 2 kkids up here and I can tell you that the first 18months I hated
Okinawa, compared to the mainland. The long, hot endless summer, the
food, etc. etc. Eventually though I have come to love this place, even
though it is poor.

But as far as recent attitudes toward the US Miliitary and Americans, it is not a sudden thing. Think about how long this small Island has had to bear the burden of all these bases being here.
The people in Ginowan were promised that Futenma would be close and returned to them 15 years ago! They have been promised reduction of troops time and time again - none of these things have happened!

It is probably a case of vent up frustrations.

I live in Ginowan, it is a very built up area. People don't want it there, they are sick and tired of the noise pollution in a heavily populated residential area.

If you can give me an example of a US Air base in the US which is in such a
heavily populated area, I would like to know about it.

[Rollin_J's]

Thistle Post - If you can give me an example of a US Air base in the US which is in such a heavily populated area, I would like to know about it.

1. Miramar Air Station, San Diego.

[ryukyuboi]

No doubt, your eventual departure will be a win-win for all.

[Meliai]

I certainly hope you're right. :D

[GODH8SU]

If you can give me an example of a US Air base in the US which is in such a
heavily populated area, I would like to know about it.[/QUOTE]

Luke AFB, Phoenix,AZ

[SPMF#1]

Tinker AFB, Lakland AFB etc

[Bones]

A posted by Meliali:

We lived off base until last week and have been here over a year. Really, I don't see what the big deal is about not having been able to go off base, aside from just not having the permission to do so. I spend my money here instead of supporting another economy and, from experience, mostly wasting it on unnecessary things.

Well Meliali, I hope that you have enjoyed your tour.

Just find it sad, that you never had the opportunity to see what is outside of the gates.

NBTP

[izabelai]

They would rather, in general, lie to your face about what they think of you than be openly rude or offensive. But they will gossip behind your back if they are so inclined. And this trait doesn't reflect poorly on them because it is part of their way of life ... just like Americans tend to take people's behavior at face value.

How do you know that they gossip behind your back or say lies? Do you know any Japanese to understand what they talk about?

[Bones]

As posted by izabelai:

They would rather, in general, lie to your face about what they think of you than be openly rude or offensive. But they will gossip behind your back if they are so inclined. And this trait doesn't reflect poorly on them because it is part of their way of life ... just like Americans tend to take people's behavior at face value.

How do you know that they gossip behind your back or say lies? Do you know any Japanese to understand what they talk about?

Yes I do, just wondering whom you might be responding to.

NBTP

[Meliai]

Well, that isn't exactly true, No Bones to Pic. We have been out to local restaurants, have visited with local friends, been to cultural performances, heritage sites and attractions, etc. When I say mostly spending it on unnecessary things I really don't mean to be insulting. We don't actually need CoCo's although we enjoy it. During the lockdown, friends off base could still visit us in our new home on base ... and friends are one of the few things I find "necessary" in life right now.

[izabelai]

I am sorry if I didn't make it clear. It was a question to Meliai.

[Crazysix]

I posted this originally in another thread and it was kindly suggested that I post it in a separate thread. So here it is:

Hi, this is my first post here but I've been reading the past couple of weeks. We lived off base until last week and have been here over a year. Really, I don't see what the big deal is about not having been able to go off base, aside from just not having the permission to do so. I spend my money here instead of supporting another economy and, from experience, mostly wasting it on unnecessary things.

Okinawans as a group, like all other humans, are not inherently better or worse than anyone else. One of the things I find most amusing about people's comments (not necessarily on JU) is how "nice the locals have always been". Certainly, to your face. It's a cultural difference and it's one of the first things you learn (or should have) about Japanese and Okinawan culture. They would rather, in general, lie to your face about what they think of you than be openly rude or offensive. But they will gossip behind your back if they are so inclined. And this trait doesn't reflect poorly on them because it is part of their way of life ... just like Americans tend to take people's behavior at face value.

I think the greatest irony comes from the fact that US forces have, in a way, allowed peace to prosper here. Japan as a whole hasn't always been the most peaceful of places. Okinawans, caught in the crossfire decades ago, stand out today for their cultural heritage and strong pacifistic nature ... but their now comparably sheltered lives, imo, are responsible for their lack of understanding of or interest in global politics and just how vulnerable a space they really occupy.

All in all, I can't wait until we move out of here. This is the poorest prefecture in Japan and it shows. The weather and humidity is a nightmare. Married with a young child, most of the attraction of off base activities isn't that high right now. The food was novel at first but, really, I can live without it just fine. And those are really personal preferences, not reflective of me *as an American*. Nevertheless, whatever charm the island held has been soured by this negativity aimed at ALL Americans and military personnel here. I don't care who actually believes what. The media, like it does everywhere else, will shape public opinion over time. And in most media outlets, Americans and our military can never do enough good to "make up" for any amount of bad.
good post and welcome, you hit alot of good points

[Bones]

Ok, Meliali. My bad.

NBTP

[Meliai]

How do you know that they gossip behind your back or say lies? Do you know any Japanese to understand what they talk about?

Actually, Izabelai, the Japanese and Okinawan friends we've made have admitted to this. In fact, most of them have been relieved that we bothered to learn about their culture and understand that they place a greater importance on being polite, courteous and respectful towards others than on being "honest" or "in your face" with their opinions as we Americans tend to be. One of my best friends (mainland Japanese) finds it hilarious when I tell her how nice most Americans think most Japanese are based on their behavior alone. She's said that, yes, they are generally nice people and do their best to behave honorably but that they aren't superior human beings just by virtue of being Japanese ... you know, without ever having ill feelings towards others or engaging in other normal human behavior. They just place greater emphasis on not expressing those feelings to you so as not to offend you. But they will discuss you and their feelings about you with their friends, family or co-workers if they are so inclined. That is, if they feel like it; I'm not saying that ALL do so all the time. And I think that trait, what some would call gossiping, is not exclusive to any one group of people but is actually common in most societies and understandably so. Imo, many people aren't comfortable with confrontations and are comfortable "venting" to trusted persons. Americans, in my experience, just tend to be more forward with their opinions, particularly in comparison to the Japanese, and almost seem to expect others they have dealings with to be equally forthcoming.

Geez, this reminds me of an old episode of Frasier, lol.

Anyway, I was in no way trying to be insulting with that comment and thought I made it fairly clear by even bolding part of what I wrote.

[proudtobnotpc]

Well, that isn't exactly true, No Bones to Pic. We have been out to local restaurants, have visited with local friends, been to cultural performances, heritage sites and attractions, etc. When I say mostly spending it on unnecessary things I really don't mean to be insulting. We don't actually need CoCo's although we enjoy it. During the lockdown, friends off base could still visit us in our new home on base ... and friends are one of the few things I find "necessary" in life right now.

thank you for leaving:thumbdown:please don't come back with your attitude:thumbdown:

[Meliai]

No worries, NBTP. I'm thinking perhaps that my original post has more of a sullen tone than I intended. Thank you for being understanding. :)

And thanks, Crazysix. Glad I stumbled upon this place. ;)

[P_chan]

and friends are one of the few things I find "necessary" in life right now.

My family and friends are a necessary for me all the time. They live off base in mainly in the haebaru/naha area. So that would mean if we stayed on lockdown, I couldn't visit them. So because the lockdown worked out ok for you, we should all just go with it?

[GODH8SU]

My family and friends are a necessary for me all the time. They live off base in mainly in the haebaru/naha area. So that would mean if we stayed on lockdown, I couldn't visit them. So because the lockdown worked out ok for you, we should all just go with it?

Don't worry. Just another loser that stays on base 24-7 and complains about how miserable life is but doesn't do anything to enhance it. I've been in that situation before and I regret it all the time. Meliai might someday wake up and join this thing we call real life.

[Meliai]

I don't believe I said that, P Chan. I was just speaking for myself and what my personal perspective is. Obviously, not all of us are going to have the same experiences here as we are all different people with different life situations. One of the things that surprised me about this whole thing was how the decision extended to affect Japanese spouses and extended family. I can't imagine living in the same general area as my family and not being permitted to see them.

[P_chan]

I don't believe I said that, P Chan. I was just speaking for myself and what my personal perspective is. Obviously, not all of us are going to have the same experiences here as we are all different people with different life situations. One of the things that surprised me about this whole thing was how the decision extended to affect Japanese spouses and extended family. I can't imagine living in the same general area as my family and not being permitted to see them.

Exactly! But I hear a lot of people saying they don't care if they get locked on base. That just shows that they don't care about anyone else's situation but their own.

[Muku]

They would rather, in general, lie to your face about what they think of you than be openly rude or offensive. But they will gossip behind your back if they are so inclined. And this trait doesn't reflect poorly on them because it is part of their way of life ... just like Americans tend to take people's behavior at face value.

How do you know that they gossip behind your back or say lies? Do you know any Japanese to understand what they talk about?
I know that this was answered, however I would like to say that this is a trait common here in Okinawa and Japan.

Also in some ways I wish that American's could pick up parts of this too. Instead of hurting people with the plain unvarnished truth all the time, a little white lie here and there would work wonders.

Oopppss My bad Americans do this often too....

Hey honey that dress looks great on you....:barf:.:barf:.:barf:


Oh and I speak a little bit of Japanese too!:)

[Muku]

That just shows that they don't care about anyone else's situation but their own.
Does it really though P?

Why does everyone have to be concerned about everyone else, particularly when one is satisfied or "ok" with their own situation.

[P_chan]

There's nothing wrong with looking out for yourself, as long as it's not the only person you look out for.

Just some consideration for the well being of others is nice. Then maybe you wouldn't have people talking on cell phones in a movie theater:cursing:

[P_chan]

Or saying the lock down was "great" because it didn't really effect your own everyday life.

[SPMF#1]

I found the whole lock down inconvenient, but overall it wasn’t something I couldn't tolerate. Meliai wasn't bothered by it either, but its different strokes for different folks. I have people in my section that live on and off base, and though it wasn't so bad for those of us on base, it was more of a pain for those off.

[Tony Stacks]

Go kick sand.
Get over youself ugh -rolls eyes-

[Meliai]

Also in some ways I wish that American's could pick up parts of this too. Instead of hurting people with the plain unvarnished truth all the time, a little white lie here and there would work wonders.

Thank you, Muku, that's part of the point I was trying to make. Both approaches have their positive and negative aspects. I don't think either attitude is necessarily best in all circumstances and yet I can still accept that that is only my opinion. I try to curb my penchance for being all-honest-all-the-time with my Japanese friends because I know they appreciate being treated in the same way they treat me. Likewise, with my more forward friends, I know I can be more open and less worried about offending them. I alluded to this problem of integration in another post. To really achieve understanding between different cultures, imo, we each need to be open to how the other group views and responds to life instead of pushing our own perspectives on why they do this or say that, hopefully without taking things personally.


And, just to clarify in general in case it wasn't clear, the negativity aimed at Americans I referred to in my original post was referring to the vocal minority and the media, not the average Japanese/Okinawan citizen. The only reason I even mentioned the differences in the people's approach to treating others is that just because they are nice to you doesn't mean that you know how they really feel about you (good or bad) and I'm speaking mostly about persons with which you don't have close relationships such as strangers on the street or proprietors. They're just generally amicable people.

[okisteve]

I know that this was answered, however I would like to say that this is a trait common here in Okinawa and Japan.

Also in some ways I wish that American's could pick up parts of this too. Instead of hurting people with the plain unvarnished truth all the time, a little white lie here and there would work wonders.



Oh and I speak a little bit of Japanese too!:)

For me, that's what the whole Japan experience boils down to - at the end of nearly any contact with a Japanese and Okinawan person, I feel good, not bad. I definitely cannot say that about many contacts with Americans and some other nationalities.

I just love the hell out of daily transactions here, all the bowing and smiling. Supermarket registers, package deliveries, kindergarten teachers, you name it and I love it. Who gives a rip if it's fake? - it makes me feels great. (Like a placebo.)

And that goes double, wait - triple, for my experience in marriage(s). You can read in between the lines here.

[P_chan]

I found the whole lock down inconvenient, but overall it wasn’t something I couldn't tolerate. Meliai wasn't bothered by it either, but its different strokes for different folks. I have people in my section that live on and off base, and though it wasn't so bad for those of us on base, it was more of a pain for those off.

It was not a terrible inconvenience for me, only because it was short lived. But if it would have gone on for a long time, then it would have been horrible for me.

[SPMF#1]

It was not a terrible inconvenience for me, only because it was short lived. But if it would have gone on for a long time, then it would have been horrible for me.
I can agree with that. A body can only be 'confined' in the fence for so long with our going a bit nuts. Be interesting to know what kind of feedback Gen Z has gotten from all of this. Maybe he should set up a profile on JU...

[yokozuna]

Anyone who thinks that the crap that they serve you on base is an acceptable alternative to the variety of good food available in Okinawa has absolutely no taste and should go the F back to arsehole, Indiana or wherever you're from.

[Meliai]

Anyone who thinks that the crap that they serve you on base is an acceptable alternative to the variety of good food available in Okinawa has absolutely no taste and should go the F back to arsehole, Indiana or wherever you're from.

I never thought I'd inspire enmity in others simply by my choice in food. Quite amusing. But actually, I enjoy cooking and, as part of the whole don't-need-to-spend-money-on-unnecessary-things, we don't really have enough disposable income to eat out all the time anyway, on base or off. Perhaps I'm the only one living on a budget and trying to plan for a positive financial future. :rolleyes: Anyway, I did say we enjoyed the local food and one of my friends has been kind and patient enough to help me learn how to cook some of it myself, not that it'll ever really compare. Maybe you and I simply have different ideas of what a "need" (ie, necessary) is versus a "want" and apply them to different things.


All in all, I really don't understand how my personal preferences could upset others. I don't enjoy living in a poor place because I grew up in a poor place. And it isn't that it isn't, like, pretty. It's that I feel very sad for people who struggle to make a living, sometimes in substandard housing, as I know what that's like. I grew up believing that we should help those less fortunate because poverty, frankly, sucks ... and I can't be alone in that opinion because I've yet to see a charity set up to help the rich. That feeling also kind of rolls over into my dislike of their economy being so dependent on us right now. Relative financial independence is a good thing, at least to me.

Could it be my taste in climate that is so disturbing? I grew up in a tropical climate and frankly prefer four seasons. I don't see any need for alarm about that. I've addressed the food thing. And it really is true for us that we not only can't afford to go out and "party" all the time but we also have a child which makes it just that much more difficult to experience the same things as single, childless persons can here.

The world is big place and I'm sure we all have places that are more to our liking than others. I don't see how that is upsetting. We have a few more years here and I'm sure we'll do the best we can with what we've got. But I don't see why we should be judged as somehow "bad" because we wouldn't choose to make this our permanent residence. To each their own.

[okisteve]

Meliai, you seem like a very intelligent and sensitive person, and I have no clue where you grew up, but if you consider Okinawa poor you sure haven't been around much. 2/3 the level of the per capita income of Japan is only poor by Japanese standards, and anyway to compensate for that most prices are lower than the mainland, people enjoy their extended families, good government services, etc. etc. That is (for me at least ) why it is so easy to live here. I am not embarrassed by being a rich foreigner, and I don't feel any need to stay in a gated community to either protect my family or to avoid seeing unpleasant human situations.

For a contrasting experience, try living in just about any third-world country, where you will daily be blasted by scenes of poverty, illness, beggars on the streets, and overall insecurity. And of course that can be found in the US too.

So by my gauge, Okinawa is very near the top of the pile.

But I have to agree with you about the long humid summers!

[P_chan]

Anyone who thinks that the crap that they serve you on base is an acceptable alternative to the variety of good food available in Okinawa has absolutely no taste and should go the F back to arsehole, Indiana or wherever you're from.

I'm from "arsehole" indiana and I'd rather eat off base then on.

But once it comes to pizza, I'll go back to arsehole indiana for that. Pizza on okinawa SUCKS!

[Trail]

I'm from "arsehole" indiana and I'd rather eat off base then on.

But once it comes to pizza, I'll go back to arsehole indiana for that. Pizza on okinawa SUCKS!

Have you tried Pizzaria Marino? It's not American style, by no means, but it is definately good IMO. The pasta there very good as well.:thumbup1:

[P_chan]

I've had "decent" pizza here. But really nothing worth multiple visits.

[okisteve]

How about keeping on topic? There's another thread for restaurants.

[Trail]

How about keeping on topic? There's another thread for restaurants.

Sorry Okisteve. I won't happen again. I didn't know you were the forum monitor. :P

[Meliai]

Thanks, okisteve. I do consider Okinawa poor but I never meant to suggest it is the poorest place in the world. I did state in my initial post that it was the poorest prefecture in Japan, which it is. As in most poor places (and I hope I'm clear in that I am not speaking about places subject to devastiting poverty such as, say, Sudan) there are those who are better off than others. I've met locals who have managed to thrive here and others who work 2 or 3 jobs to support their families. Likewise, there is a dramatic difference in housing standards and availability depending on where you go. High-paying jobs are not abundant here, either. And while an Okinawan may make more money than a Sudanese person, the economy in which each lives greatly affects how much money is "enough" for a reasonable standard of living. Suffering is mostly a subjective experience and I am not keen on the idea of suggesting that people who feel they are suffering aren't suffering "enough" because others may be suffering worse than they are. Whether or not it is true does not effect much alleviation.

Here is a link to an article which I think explains my understanding of this issue better than I could at the moment.

Okinawa's Post War Economy (http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/summit/english/2000/20000720_6.html)

More to the point is that there is little that those of us who do not settle here, who only spend a few years here, can do to help change a situation that is so complicated and often beyond our ken. And I think that perhaps there is a link between the struggles some experience here and the kinds of problems we are seeing between our service members and the local citizenry. For example, it is well known that there are many young women who choose to sell their bodies for profit here. Certainly, they chose to enter this "career" but it is my opinion that this choice is less often made in places where there is less poverty (barring certain places where legalisation has taken effect). Likewise, there are many men who choose to contribute their money to this activity. And while many may engage in this sort of thing regularly and without reprecussion, there are times when things go sour quickly ... ie, like when a female really is raped or a when a female makes false accusations about rape. And maybe what I'm about to write is really going to set people off but ... I find it alarming that the focus is so often put solely on the misconduct/crime committed or allegedly committed by members of our military than it is on the very real problem of these girls choosing this way of life. I think both deserve an equal amount of outrage.

Either way, I do agree that Okinawa is by and large at the top of the worldwide pile of poverty. I just, perhaps too idealistically, wish the pile was much, much smaller. I do hope things can change and I feel that, especially concerning places which do not suffer from the kind of civil strife that so often leads to disaster, progress could be made swiftly if the problems were addressed honestly. Oh, heck, let's just blame it all on the politicians. ;)

[okisteve]

Sorry Okisteve. I won't happen again. I didn't know you were the forum monitor. :P

I too am seriously concerned about the crappy pizza here, but really there are other threads where we all lamented.

[GODH8SU]

Perhaps I'm the only one living on a budget and trying to plan for a positive financial future.

Budget my ass. You are poor and there is no other explanation. You're one of those irresponsible families living paycheck to paycheck because you don't know the first thing about financial responsibility. I have a kid and one on the way and i can do anything I want at any time I want at damn near any price. I have at least a years salary in savings and at least that in investments. How? Because I wasn't a reckless douche bag when I was young. Anyone in the military who can't afford normal leisure activity along with material "wants" either has a brady bunch family or is just plain moronic. And just to clarify, I am enlisted.

[Rollin_J's]

Budget my ass. You are poor and there is no other explanation. You're one of those irresponsible family's living paycheck to paycheck because you don't know the first thing about financial responsibility. I have a kid and one on the way and i can do anything I want at any time I want at damn near any price. I have at least a years salary in savings and at least that in investments. How? Because I wasn't a reckless douche bag when I was young. Anyone in the military whow can't afford normal leisure activity along with material "wants" either has a brady bunch family or is just plain moronic. And just to clarify, I am enlisted.

I think it could be easily possible that they allocate alot of their funding to investments, savings, etc. You could also readily assume they may be paying on a mortage in the States to include vehicle loans amongst other items.

To generally assume they live paycheck to paycheck is an irresponsible assertation on your enlisted part. GET SOME!!! :thumbup:

[GODH8SU]

I think it could be easily possible that they allocate alot of their funding to investments, savings, etc. You could also readily assume they may be paying on a mortage in the States to include vehicle loans amongst other items.

To generally assume they live paycheck to paycheck is an irresponsible assertation on your enlisted part. GET SOME!!! :thumbup:

I have a morgtage back in AZ that I am paying, an unsold car on the lot to take care of, several investments and 4 seperate money accounts that I pay into monthly. I think you should GET SOME!

[Rollin_J's]

I have a morgtage back in AZ that I am paying, an unsold car on the lot to take care of, several investments and 4 seperate money accounts that I pay into monthly. I think you should GET SOME!

Go look at your original post; it is nothing more than a weak attempt to verbally lambast someone. :thumbup:

Take your enlisted ass; go enjoy Okinawa....invest away...pay your mortage.....and try not to assume someone else is in dire straits. The last time I checked she and her Family have every right to do what they want....whereas your assumptions are baseless. More immature to be exact.....

[GODH8SU]

Go look at your original post; it is nothing more than a weak attempt to verbally lambast someone. :thumbup:

Take your enlisted ass; go enjoy Okinawa....invest away...pay your mortage.....and try not to assume someone else is in dire straits. The last time I checked she and her Family have every right to do what they want....whereas your assumptions are baseless. More immature to be exact.....

Just sick of people blaming all their problems on lack of finances and bitching about how bad their assignment is because their is nothing to do or because they can't afford to do anything. Their is a ton of stuff do do around here that won't break your wallet but that seems to be the regular excuse.

[Rollin_J's]

Just sick of people blaming all their problems on lack of finances and bitching about how bad their assignment is because their is nothing to do or because they can't afford to do anything. Their is a ton of stuff do do around here that won't break your wallet but that seems to be the regular excuse.

I agree with this statement of yours, "Their is a ton of stuff do do around here that won't break your wallet but that seems to be the regular excuse."

I know there are quite a few people who relinquish themselves to base living; that is their choice.

At least you went out and enjoyed these activities and were able to include your family in those experiences; this makes you and yours more cultured and experienced.

I personally loved to go scuba diving, hit the beach, go for rides, enjoy local cuisine, meet friends in the local population, deep sea fishing, etc. But, like the poster we are talking about...I hit a period where I wanted to conserve all of my funds and focus on other areas. During that time when I focused my attention on those other areas; like her, I was not attracted to what is available here in Okinawa.

Motivate.

[GODH8SU]

Perhaps I came off a little strong but I've seen it too many times during my career with the younger kids complaining about how broke they are. It saddens me to think that a 20 year old kid with a steady paycheck and food and board taken care of can be broke. The problem with this is that it stays with them and the next thing you know they're 30 years old with 2 or 3 kids and still living paycheck to paycheck complaining how expensive everything is and that they can't afford to do anything.

[thistle]

You really don't think Okinawa is poor, Okisteve. Come over to Ginowan and Urasoe and I'll show you round some of the slums if you want.

As Melia said later, no-one is saying it is one of the poorest places in the
world but it certainly is poor.
People have to work 2 jobs just to get by here, certainly both parents have to work.
In MOST families, not all of course.

I look at the house and amenities my sister back in the UK has, and I can tell you I FEEL like I am living in a third world country sometimes.

[okisteve]

Sure, let's go slumming some time. But there is substandard housing and pockets of poverty everywhere. Even Paris, New York, San Francisco. I could show you alums in New York that would curl your teeth, and it's one of the richest cities in the world. How about Glasgow?

That's all about inequality, not overall poverty.

[Bones]

As posted by thistle:

I look at the house and amenities my sister back in the UK has, and I can tell you I FEEL like I am living in a third world country sometimes.

Hey thistle, you've made your choice, you're here, live with it.

Granted that your sister has a nice place back at home, but where are you at?

I bet that she would like to trade places with you.

NBTP

[thistle]

You're right I made my choices, and I am not complaining. I am not unhappy here even though I am poor. I think it is a wonderful place to live.

Granted you do find slums everywhere, in every city. In Japan, the poor live among the rich, and the poor live among the middle class.
There is an area in Isa, Ginowan right behind a nice classy apartment block,
where I have seen old houses not fit for pigs to live in.

But I still say that generally speaking Okinawa is poor. That it is hard to make a living here compared to the rest of Japan certainly. I don't think it is just little pockets of poverty here and there.

[RenaissanceMan]

Okinawa is great. Everything is what you make of it. The poor stay poor because they always say I am poor, and the rich stay rich because they always say I am rich. Okinawa is poor because of a mindset, Tokyo is rich because of a mindset. If you can get your mind out, your body will follow. Okinawa is a great place, people on main land know that, that is why they open businesses here and send all the profits BACK to their HQ in mainland. If Okinawa sees itself as a small island in the middle of nowhere, then that is all it will ever be. If OKinawa saw itself as it did hundreds of years ago, a crossroads in the Pacific, then that is what it can be again. I am running for office in Okinawa one of these days. Seriously.

[Meliai]

First I want to thank those of you here who have responded with civility, especially even if we have differing perspectives.

Secondly, I think some of you are assuming and speculating too much about why I feel the way I do. In case it wasn't obvious, I titled this thread "Changes in feelings about Okinawa". Changes. Which would normally suggest that I didn't always feel this way. Yes, I did make a list of things that bother me about it but then added "Nevertheless, whatever charm the island held has been soured by this negativity aimed at ALL Americans and military personnel here" which I clarified was referring to the vocal minority and media. And that means that despite the things I outlined, the island still had it's attractions ... until this fiasco and I explained why that was so.

Really, unless comprehension skills are suffering, I think my post was pretty self-explanatory. No, I'm not worried about living here now. But I do believe that the media will shape public opinion over time and I personally feel that the tensions will not simply blow over if we ignore them. Hopefully, I am wrong. As most of our hands our tied in this regard either way, I don't find it an outrageous sentiment that maybe this isn't the perfect place for everyone. If it were, I can't imagine how we'd cram all the world's population into this little island.

Maybe I'm just confused as to why someone would be so defensive about someone else's opinions about where to live. Do you all intend to retire here? Is there something inherently wrong with wishing to live elsewhere?

As for my mentioning a budget ... perhaps you overlooked the sarcastic smiley I was careful to add. You know, suggesting that I was being ... sarcastic ... ie. fully aware that we are not the only ones living on a budget yada yada. I don't see how the way we choose to spend our money is cause for controversy and I certainly am not going to delineate our financial plans to "defend" myself here.

Anyway, I hope that everyone who does a tour here makes the best they are able to out of it. Those of you who love this place like no other, well, peace and much prosperity to you. Those of you who look forward to moving on, likewise.

[LooseCannon]

Okinawa is great. Everything is what you make of it. The poor stay poor because they always say I am poor, and the rich stay rich because they always say I am rich. Okinawa is poor because of a mindset, Tokyo is rich because of a mindset. If you can get your mind out, your body will follow. Okinawa is a great place, people on main land know that, that is why they open businesses here and send all the profits BACK to their HQ in mainland. If Okinawa sees itself as a small island in the middle of nowhere, then that is all it will ever be. If OKinawa saw itself as it did hundreds of years ago, a crossroads in the Pacific, then that is what it can be again. I am running for office in Okinawa one of these days. Seriously.

RenaissanceMan, you are my hero! You're absolutely right when you say that it is the mindset of the people themselves that are holding them back! The place can be a crossroads of the pacific again but as long as people are content to play the victim card, they will always be the victim. Being the victim means you want people to feel sorry for you. Its the easy way out and the gutless choice!

That is why they are so quick to point to the American's here and blame them for every woe that befalls them. It's easier to point fingers at others than to face yourself in the mirror and admit that you are your own worst enemy. I'm not saying that American's over here are without sin, its just that we are not the cause of every bad thing that happens as those in local leadership and the media are so quick to point out.:army:

[Rollin_J's]

First I want to thank those of you here who have responded with civility, especially even if we have differing perspectives.

Secondly, I think some of you are assuming and speculating too much about why I feel the way I do. In case it wasn't obvious, I titled this thread "Changes in feelings about Okinawa". Changes. Which would normally suggest that I didn't always feel this way. Yes, I did make a list of things that bother me about it but then added "Nevertheless, whatever charm the island held has been soured by this negativity aimed at ALL Americans and military personnel here" which I clarified was referring to the vocal minority and media. And that means that despite the things I outlined, the island still had it's attractions ... until this fiasco and I explained why that was so.

Really, unless comprehension skills are suffering, I think my post was pretty self-explanatory. No, I'm not worried about living here now. But I do believe that the media will shape public opinion over time and I personally feel that the tensions will not simply blow over if we ignore them. Hopefully, I am wrong. As most of our hands our tied in this regard either way, I don't find it an outrageous sentiment that maybe this isn't the perfect place for everyone. If it were, I can't imagine how we'd cram all the world's population into this little island.

Maybe I'm just confused as to why someone would be so defensive about someone else's opinions about where to live. Do you all intend to retire here? Is there something inherently wrong with wishing to live elsewhere?

As for my mentioning a budget ... perhaps you overlooked the sarcastic smiley I was careful to add. You know, suggesting that I was being ... sarcastic ... ie. fully aware that we are not the only ones living on a budget yada yada. I don't see how the way we choose to spend our money is cause for controversy and I certainly am not going to delineate our financial plans to "defend" myself here.

Anyway, I hope that everyone who does a tour here makes the best they are able to out of it. Those of you who love this place like no other, well, peace and much prosperity to you. Those of you who look forward to moving on, likewise.

They are being defensive.

Please take into account that a lot of these people call Okinawa their permenant home now. They have married a local therefore creating a family unit that has its roots in Okinawa/Japan. Basically they have adopted this as their new home and defend it rigidly, regardless if you meant to smite Okinawa or not.
I think some of the comments were unnecessary, but at least it shows they care. :old: