Should Bush be impeached?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Dennis Kucinich (dem -- Ohio) was the first to start the talk about impeaching Bush several months ago, and since then it looks like perhaps it may come about. Things are not going very well for Bush, and his latest commuting of Libby's conviction sentence and refusing oversight by Congress could just do it.

Cindy Sheehan has even gotten into the act by trying to twist Nancy Pelosi's arm, saying that if she did not begin impeachment hearings within the next 120 days, she would move to her district and challenge her in the next upcoming elections.

Would you support Bush being impeached? If not, why not?

As for me, I would like to see him impeached.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Both Bush and Cheney. Their manufacture of the present mis-adventure in Iraq can easily be likened unto high treason. The very premises upon which this campaign was launched were severely flawed: a pre-emptive war over a perceived threat from an impotent and marginalised egocentric dictator.

One of these clever legislators in the Congress can likely construct a case for the wreckless and hasty rush to conflict that has drained resources and jeopardised America's national defense.

[DoctorP]

What is to be gained by an impeachment? Really? The new elections are coming up and a new regeme will be in place. All of the rest of this is just a dog and pony show to try and make themselves look good.

Would I support it? Not really. Is it because I support Bush completely? No. It is because whenever something goes wrong that is the first word out of someone's mouth. Kinda like "I'll sue!". It's getting old. Politicians need to quit acting like little kids and work together for the greater good, instead of drawing party lines and bickering all of the time

As for Cindy Sheehan...why does she think that she could do any better? I doubt she could garner enough votes to win anyway.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I suppose the rule of law no longer matters? Are public officials no longer to be held accountable for lying?

The evidence of manufacturing lies, half-truths and misleading the public by omitting facts is tantamount high crimes. It is very easy to show a solid pattern of deception.

[DoctorP]

I'm not denying those claims. What I am asking, is how would it make things better if you impeached the Pres and VP?

[Isaak Brodsky]

A fair question.

Seems to me that impeachment proceedings would illustrate to the rest of the world that we actually do respect the law, that even officials sitting the highest offices are not above law.

[DoctorP]

I can see that, but with both being impeached, where would that leave us?
Are you merely going to do it for symbolic reasons? If so, then I don't see the sense in it...much like I didn't see the sense in Clinton's debacle!

[TheNoNamedOne]

As for Cindy Sheehan...why does she think that she could do any better? I doubt she could garner enough votes to win anyway.

I don't think she could do any better, and I don't think she'd win. And I don't even think she thinks she could do any better or that even she'd win.

The point of her entering the race would bring and focus the debate of the elections on impeachment which Pelosi would have to constantly address. As a politician Pelosi would have to weigh this affect on her campaign, and if Sheehan would cyphon off enough support from her that would perhaps allow a 3rd party to win.

All it is is simple arm twisting on the part of Sheehan without being able to break the arm. But a twisted arm sure can cause one to act if it is twisted hard enough.

Think chess.

[DoctorP]

The point of her entering the race would bring and focus the debate of the elections on impeachment which Pelosi would have to constantly address. As a politician Pelosi would have to weigh this affect on her campaign, and if Sheehan would cyphon off enough support from her that would perhaps allow a 3rd party to win.

All it is is simple arm twisting on the part of Sheehan without being able to break the arm. But a twisted arm sure can cause one to act if it is twisted hard enough.


I don't think Sheehan could do any damage at all. There are probably more people that hate her than like her...but that is my opinion. But from what I saw of her rallies, she didn't fare very well at all.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I don't think Sheehan could do any damage at all.

C'mon, we are talking about Pelosi's district in SAN FRANCISCO. That is liberal heaven. She wouldn't win. But she sure would not go unnoticed at the polls.

She doesn't need to do a lot of damage. Just enough will do.

[DoctorP]

Sure, you have a point. But back to the impeachment. Do you really think that it would serve any good? I mean good to the people, not good as in people who hate Bush/Cheney would have that good tingly feeling all over!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yes. Good is done when justice is served.

Don't you think good is done when a 90 year old Nazi war criminal is hunted down in South America and held accountable for his crimes 5 decades earlier? I think it is, why don't you?

I don't see how Jewish people are done good by that in any way -- but I see justice is done good, and rightly it should so be.

Edit to add: ... and a message is sent to future persons who may be tempted to do the same or similar thing.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I'm not certain when in American history so many demoralizing and devastating deceptions have been conjured up and set into motion by any party in power. Clinton's deceptions were meager in light of the present administration's. Even Watergate pales in comparison.

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz have broken new ground in extremist neo-conservatism, except theirs is secular whereas bin Laden's is religious.

The BBC produced a really good documentary on this very topic. You can check it out for free online at

http://www.oneplanetonenation.com/ponightmares1.html

Check it out when you have some time.
Cheers.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Only curious to know if anyone has had a chance to check out "The Power of Nightmares."

It really provides some nice context to the entire issue of the West against the Isalmofacists.

[Asshat]

I'm not certain when in American history so many demoralizing and devastating deceptions have been conjured up and set into motion by any party in power.

Ian, I don't want to try and turn this into a history lesson, but your question is easily answered without too much effort. Nixon's stalling the Paris talks to use as an election tool, Ike sending CIA and Marines into Guatamala to unseat a duly elected president....so UFC of whose board his wife sat at...could get back the plantation land they stole originally. Obviously, there are other examples.

Earlier you posted something about showing the world that the US is XY and Z for impeaching....really doesn't have much merit. True, plenty of Americans are groveling in their quest for "why don't they like us" and "what will the world think." But no one really cares. No, getting US autos delivered for a higher tarrif than what the US charges them is more important.

Showing the world what? Impeach a president to show the world "we mean buisness" while consuming the majority of the world's natural resources?

[Isaak Brodsky]

Actually, I didn’t pose a question but posited a fairly reasonable observation. My own graduate students sometimes cite similar flimsy examples as those catalogued above. The invasion of Panama to depose Noriega might qualify as a close second in terms of frivolous military forays masquerading in the guise of freedom and liberty, but no mess on the scale of what we faced during “Just Cause” can compare to Iraq.

Impeachment proceedings carry the most merit for a public official of Bush’s ilk because it seems to me that most reasonable and self-respecting Americans still care about how they are perceived in the world—even today. That is, they seem to actually care about the law. Punishing a lawbreaker communicates the degree to which we esteem our own laws. It communicates as well our rejection of privilege and class.

It is astonishing that citizens of such a prosperous republic would trivialize the importance of law.

Nevertheless, I think that you are perhaps mainly and merely referring to a slim minority of arrogant but vocal backwater hillbillies who may care only about the next Christmas buying season and whether their credit cards will accept the merchandise they desire. When you say that “no one really cares,” you are literally brushing every American with the same broad stroke. Hasty generalizations such as these may suggest to those who don’t really know you either arrogance or ignorance.

Kidding aside, I appreciate your efforts in not wanting to turn this into some sort of history lesson. For the record, I teach rhetoric and communication theory to adult learners.

So, my goal in these forums is not to lecture anyone but to offer up some alternative perspectives and to provoke some thoughtful responses to important issues that affect our lives. Flippant and condescending retorts aren’t always productive.

I offer up a pre-emptive apology to anyone who perceives my comments about the political issues that shape our lives as gratuitous moralizing.