The 'rape' of Okinawa

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

An article in the Asia Times by Chalmers Johnson dissects the current situation, and discusses why the status quo will remain. In his words "...But nothing ever changes. Why?"

Because the Japanese government speaks with a forked tongue. For the sake of the Okinawans forced to live cheek-by-jowl with 37 US military bases on their small island, Tokyo condemns the behavior of the Americans. Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda called the recent assault "unforgivable" and demanded tighter military discipline. But that is as far as it goes.

The Japanese government has never even discussed why a large standing army of Americans is garrisoned on Japanese territory, some 63 years after the end of World War II. There is never any analysis in the Japanese press or by the government of whether the Japanese-American Security Treaty actually requires such American troops.

Couldn't the terms of the treaty be met just as effectively if the marines were sent back to their own country and called on only in an emergency? The American military has never agreed to rewrite the Status of Forces Agreement, as demanded by every local community in Japan that plays host to American military facilities, and the Japanese government meekly goes along with this stonewalling.

Once an incident "blows over", as this latest one now has, the pundits and diplomats go back to their boiler-plate pronouncements about the "long-standing and strong alliance" (Rice in Tokyo), about how Japan is an advanced democracy (although it has been ruled by the same political party since 1949 except for a few years after the collapse of the Soviet Union), and about how indispensable America's empire of over 800 military bases in other people's countries is to the maintenance of peace and security.

As long as Japan remains a satellite of the United States, women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism. As long as the Japanese government refuses to stand up and demand that the American troops based on its territory simply go home, nothing will change.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html

[FaceTheMusic]

The author here uses his words carefully to make it sound like the highest possible number of troops are here, that rapes and beatings occur daily here and go unreported, and so on. He's written several books which if you just read the title, they show that he's got the anti-imperialist America mindset. When the crap hits the fan and China starts exercising its military might over the region, by the time we show up, Okinawa will endure 1000 times worse what we could do by just continuing the status quo.

However we could use better discipline among troops, because the behavior is unacceptable. Any ideas?

[Medama_Oyaji]

However we could use better discipline among troops, because the behavior is unacceptable. Any ideas?

i think the curfew is a good start...but it will bring more incidents on base.

[AFuel567]

An article in the Asia Times by Chalmers Johnson dissects the current situation, and discusses why the status quo will remain. In his words "...But nothing ever changes. Why?"


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html

Okay, this article is biased and inaccurate, the SOFA was rewritten after the '95 rape, hence the reason the SSgt cooled his heels with the Japanese authorities until the charges were dropped even though he was never indicted. There is a historical reason for the US to be here and for Japan to not have a large standing army. The countries in this region remember the last time Japan was a military power and don't want to see a return. Even though the Cold War ended, the threat from North Korea and aggression against Taiwan haven't gone away. The Chinese continue to grow and improve its military. Oh yeah the Russians are now flying their long range bombers around a lot these days. Also you have Jemah Islamiah and Abu Sayef in the region. The US military in this region also react to natural disaster to provide HA/DR (Earthquake/Tsunami 04, Mud slides and Typhoons in the Philippines, Bangladesh etc...). The US military is here for the security of Japan and the region.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Okay, this article is biased and inaccurate, the SOFA was rewritten after the '95 rape, hence the reason the SSgt cooled his heels with the Japanese authorities until the charges were dropped even though he was never indicted.
SOFA has never been rewritten. You mistake a tacit agreement between Japan and the US to hand over suspects in heinous crime cases with an actual new treaty. This is simply not the case. In fact, in many of the rape cases since 1995, the suspects have not been handed over by the US.

[Jrocka83]

i think the curfew is a good start...but it will bring more incidents on base.

It's better to keep things in-house.:w00t:

[Medama_Oyaji]

It's better to keep things in-house.:w00t:

i was waiting for that. :D

[DOCROB]

I would rather have things happen on base then have it get all blown up out in town.

[Rollin_J's]

The 'rape' of Okinawa
By Chalmers Johnson

I find this article to be extremely biased and inflammatory in nature. It seems strikingly familiar to the anti-imperalistic articles written about the British Empire in the early to mid 1900's.
This writer, though eloquent in his wording gives himself away as a staunch anti-United States partisan in his writings. I pay him no mind and I would encourage others to pay him no mind.

America is here to stay; for the interim at least. We are not going anywhere soon. Even after a "portion" of our forces move to Guam and Iwakuni; Okinawa will still host major military installations and personnel.

Take this this into perspective, Okinawa is smaller than Camp Pendleton in California. After WWII the Okinawan islands in total had less than 200,000 people alive. Now they have 1.3 million, so obviously space, noise, pollution, and other military items are more sensitive.

In 40 days I return back to California, should I support a policy that gets rid of all the Japanese/Chinese/OKINAWAN college students in an around San Diego and Los Angeles? Should I announce that these students partake in the drug lifestyle, sell their bodies to Older American Males to pay for their drugs, blah blah blah <--- This whole paragraph is equal to the ignorance of Chalmers Johnsen...

[AFuel567]

SOFA has never been rewritten. You mistake a tacit agreement between Japan and the US to hand over suspects in heinous crime cases with an actual new treaty. This is simply not the case. In fact, in many of the rape cases since 1995, the suspects have not been handed over by the US.
Exactly how many rape cases have been brought against SOFA personnel since '95 excluding the current ones? Only two come to mind, over thirteen years and countless rotations, that's not bad. Perfection is unobtainable.

[Asshat]

As long as Japan remains a satellite of the United States, women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism.

I agree with the article until this paragraph. Either the author is very ignorant, or is trying to sell something.

[Karateguy]

An article in the Asia Times by Chalmers Johnson dissects the current situation, and discusses why the status quo will remain. In his words "...But nothing ever changes. Why?"


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html
One reason the Japanese government is not moving to kick out the US military is that the US presence allows the Japanese not to spend as much money on their own military. This allows the government to use that money in different areas. If the US didn't spend so much on keeping the greatest military in the world, the US economy and health care systems would be so much better.

[okisteve]

One reason the Japanese government is not moving to kick out the US military is that the US presence allows the Japanese not to spend as much money on their own military. This allows the government to use that money in different areas. If the US didn't spend so much on keeping the greatest military in the world, the US economy and health care systems would be so much better.

Wow, that's the truth. So the Japanese are being pretty damn clever about this, and just trying to have their cake and eat it by pressing for better off-base behavior.

I don't mind that we "keep" the greatest military in the world... but I do object to pissing away our national wealth on futile efforts to spread democracy. We need regime change starting at home. Unfortunately, if Obama gets elected he inherits the worst economic situation since 1929 and will endure hell on earth from the loyal opposition for not being able to clean up Bush's mess.

[mikersoft]

As long as Japan remains a satellite of the United States, women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism.

I agree with the article until this paragraph.....

My feelings as well. He was making a lot of sense up until that point, then he lost some credibility with that statement.

-Mike

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Exactly how many rape cases have been brought against SOFA personnel since '95 excluding the current ones? Only two come to mind, over thirteen years and countless rotations, that's not bad. Perfection is unobtainable.
The article (you know, the one you clearly didn't bother to read in full, yet feel free to ridicule) cites fours cases of rape, sexual assault, and molestation since the biggest recent incident in 1995. May we assume your ignorance in this issue stems from your refusal to actually examine the evidence?

[okisteve]

As long as Japan remains a satellite of the United States, women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism.

I have to agree with uminchu that this statement is a bit over the top. I like Johnson (he used to be a regular on McNeil-Lehrer) but I think the above is really heavyhanded.

[Asshat]

I have to agree with uminchu that this statement is a bit over the top. I like Johnson (he used to be a regular on McNeil-Lehrer) but I think the above is really heavyhanded.

If those young men are "heavily armed," I don't figure to be "correcting" their behavior, or admonishing them to return to base by ten, or not to consume alcohol off base!

The "press" is starting to gross me out on all fronts. The assumption out there is that we are real concerned about juicy gossip tidbits, and not "news."

In this case, Johnson does exactly what he accused the GOJ of doing. Misrepresentation. It's not new. Just demeaning to me as a thinking human being.

[dweener]

I agree with the article until this paragraph. Either the author is very ignorant, or is trying to sell something.

I agree with you uminchu....it obvious he is just trying to make america look as bad as possible. I looked Chalmers up on wikipedia, and he is obsessed with american imperialism and how we use the military incorrectely. He reminds me of a cult leader...where they will say all the right things to get you in their commune, and when you get there, they are like "oh ya, we believe in cutting off our scrotum. Sorry...but you believed in us to this point right? Just keep going with it!"

[okisteve]

I agree with you uminchu....it obvious he is just trying to make america look as bad as possible. I looked Chalmers up on wikipedia, and he is obsessed with american imperialism and how we use the military incorrectely. He reminds me of a cult leader...where they will say all the right things to get you in their commune, and when you get there, they are like "oh ya, we believe in cutting off our scrotum. Sorry...but you believed in us to this point right? Just keep going with it!"

Wikipedia says he is a "critic of American imperialism", which may or may not mean he is "obsessed" with it, but why show everyone that you can exaggerate also? (I am also a critic of American imperialism, but I am not or ever have been a cult leader.)

BTW, he's not the same journalist I was thinking of, but he does have pretty good credentials, so maybe worth listening to.

[dweener]

Wikipedia says he is a "critic of American imperialism", which may or may not mean he is "obsessed" with it, but why show everyone that you can exaggerate also? (I am also a critic of American imperialism, but I am not or ever have been a cult leader.)

BTW, he's not the same journalist I was thinking of, but he does have pretty good credentials, so maybe worth listening to.

true, but he did write three books and a movie about the subject, plus numerous lectures. I thought it a safe assumption to make. Plus, wikipedia is not going to come straight out and say "he is obsessed".
I agree that he has valid points, but like many irresponsible journalists, he throws in his own agenda without "facts". just exagerations.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

So, all you know about him comes from Wikipedia? Wow! Such depth of knowledge is stunning.

[okisteve]

true, but he did write three books and a movie about the subject, plus numerous lectures. I thought it a safe assumption to make. Plus, wikipedia is not going to come straight out and say "he is obsessed".
I agree that he has valid points, but like many irresponsible journalists, he throws in his own agenda without "facts". just exagerations.

Academics (he is a retired professor from University of California) usually have some specialty on which they mainly publish. His happens to be Japan (and China). Political science, economics, etc., are not exact sciences and there are different ways to interpret observations.

I feel it is unfortunate that few academics play a role in policy. When they do we seem to end up with people like Milton Friedman and Paul Wolfowitz.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Wasn't Condi an academic before her political life...maybe Stanford?

[okisteve]

Wasn't Condi an academic before her political life...maybe Stanford?

How could I have forgotten? Actually she was a protege of Paul Wolfowitz,

[Naminori79]

Wikipedia says he is a "critic of American imperialism", which may or may not mean he is "obsessed" with it, but why show everyone that you can exaggerate also? (I am also a critic of American imperialism, but I am not or ever have been a cult leader.)

BTW, he's not the same journalist I was thinking of, but he does have pretty good credentials, so maybe worth listening to.

You are correct, leasing a military is cheaper than buying one's own. In effect Japan has an operational lease on the U.S. military. They get to have us in their country, but they have no benefits of ownership.

Chalmers Johnson is a wanker, not only is he obsessed with hating America he is also a 911 conspiracy theorist.

In addition, he fails to realize that Okinawans commit more rapes, sexual assaults, panty raids, and crimes in general than the American military ever will - even when one looks at the percentages, U.S. forces in Japan win hands down. I think most Japanese politicians realize this and they make enough noise to satisfy the antibase crowd then go about the business of the day.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Chalmers Johnson is a wanker, not only is he obsessed with hating America he is also a 911 conspiracy theorist.
Time for a citation, cupcake. I have read where CJ vigorously questions the Bush government's rational for war in Iraq, but not your allegations.

For example, CJ approved of this writer's take on "blowback"...


"According to the author of Charlie Wilson's War, the exception to CIA incompetence was the arming between 1979 and 1988 of thousands of Afghan mujahideen ("freedom fighters"). The Agency flooded Afghanistan with an incredible array of extremely dangerous weapons and 'unapologetically mov[ed] to equip and train cadres of high tech holy warriors in the art of waging a war of urban terror against a modern superpower .'

"The author of this glowing account, [the late] George Crile, was a veteran producer for the CBS television news show '60 Minutes' and an exuberant Tom Clancy-type enthusiast for the Afghan caper. He argues that the U.S.'s clandestine involvement in Afghanistan was 'the largest and most successful CIA operation in history,' 'the one morally unambiguous crusade of our time,' and that 'there was nothing so romantic and exciting as this war against the Evil Empire.' Crile's sole measure of success is killed Soviet soldiers (about 15,000), which undermined Soviet morale and contributed to the disintegration of the Soviet Union in the period 1989 to 1991. That's the successful part.

"However, he never once mentions that the 'tens of thousands of fanatical Muslim fundamentalists' the CIA armed are the same people who in 1996 killed nineteen American airmen at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, bombed our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, blew a hole in the side of the [I]U.S.S. Cole in Aden Harbor in 2000, and on September 11, 2001, flew hijacked airliners into New York's World Trade Center and the Pentagon."

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174877/chalmers_johnson_an_imperialist_comedy

Hardly a conspiracy theory.

[Asshat]

Chalmers Johnson is a wanker, not only is he obsessed with hating America he is also a 911 conspiracy theorist.

Please don't tell me that anyone who debates American policy theory is a hater of America. I am an American thru and thru, and I feel it is my patriotic duty to question the decisions made by the people we elect to represent us.

Questioning the decision of a president or the vote of a senator is not only our right, it is our duty. That is called "loving" America by the way. If I hated anyone, it would be those elected officials who fail to live up to their promises, who fail to be present during votes, who pander to special interest groups for re-election, or who pander to those who "contribute" to their re-election.

In addition, he fails to realize that Okinawans commit more rapes, sexual assaults, panty raids, and crimes in general than the American military ever will - even when one looks at the percentages, U.S. forces in Japan win hands down. I think most Japanese politicians realize this and they make enough noise to satisfy the antibase crowd then go about the business of the day.

The crime committed by Okinawans has no bearing on the crimes committed by US military. It might make for an interesting contrast, but a single crime committed by a guest of Japan is one crime that would not have been committed had that guest not been stationed here.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Good to see you back Umin :)

[Asshat]

Good to see you back Umin :)

Kinda wish I were still "gone." :) Oh well, maybe in a year or two...depending upon how bad the stocks fall in the recession we are not having. ")

[dweener]

So, all you know about him comes from Wikipedia? Wow! Such depth of knowledge is stunning.

yep. I think it comes down to the fact that all i want to know about him comes from wikipedia.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

So you're 100% convinced of Wikipedia's accuracy and impartiality in each and every entry?

[TheLastDon]

OH NOEZ,

Not a another discussion on the accuracy of Wikipedia. :barf:

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Thank you for your stuttering contribution to the discussion. Much like the Bush administration, accuracy has no place in your world, huh.

[hamsterhuey]

An article in the Asia Times by Chalmers Johnson dissects the current situation, and discusses why the status quo will remain. In his words "...But nothing ever changes. Why?"


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html

How funny. My wife found some of Johnson's articles over the weekend and was really steaming over them. Then she found out he's been academically discredited in quite a few circles, many of which are liberal and very left leaning.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Name one...

[TheLastDon]

Thank you for your stuttering contribution to the discussion. Much like the Bush administration, accuracy has no place in your world, huh.

No I am a fan of accuracy I just did want to get into another debate of Wikipedia.

Which administration has ever been accurate?

Is this the same Chalmers Johnson?

I don't agree with some of the facts in his article but I think I will read some more about the man.
http://www.jpri.org/about/officers.html

CHALMERS JOHNSON is president of the Japan Policy Research Institute, a non-profit research and public affairs organization devoted to public education concerning Japan and international relations in the Pacific. He taught for thirty years, 1962-1992, at the Berkeley and San Diego campuses of the University of California and held endowed chairs in Asian politics at both of them. At Berkeley he served as chairman of the Center for Chinese Studies and as chairman of the Department of Political Science. His B.A., M.A., and Ph.D. degrees in economics and political science are all from the University of California, Berkeley.

[TheLastDon]

I found this interesting from an interview he did.

Comparing the wall coming down and the fall of the Soviet Union to Okinawa kicking the US out to the fall of the US Empire.

This is why the US does not want to leave Okinawa.

In 1989, [Soviet leader] Mikhail Gorbachev makes a decision. They could have stopped the Germans from tearing down the Berlin Wall, but for the future of Russia he decided he'd rather have friendly relations with Germany and France than with those miserable satellites Stalin had created in East Europe. So he just watches them tear it down and, at once, the whole Soviet empire starts to unravel. It's the same sort of thing that might happen to us if we ever stood by and watched the Okinawans kick us out of Okinawa. I think our empire might unravel in a way you could never stop once it started.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/70243/tomdispatch_interview_chalmers_johnson_on_our_mili tary_empire

[DougP]

I found this interesting from an interview he did.

Comparing the wall coming down and the fall of the Soviet Union to Okinawa kicking the US out to the fall of the US Empire.

This is why the US does not want to leave Okinawa.



http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/70243/tomdispatch_interview_chalmers_johnson_on_our_mili tary_empire

There's some truth in that for sure. Although in my opinion that thread has already been pulled and our empire has been unraveling or sometime now. Eventually the ignorance to that fact will be replaced by a few million doing the one-handed-slap to the forehead... doh!

What is they say the first stage is?

[AFuel567]

The article (you know, the one you clearly didn't bother to read in full, yet feel free to ridicule) cites fours cases of rape, sexual assault, and molestation since the biggest recent incident in 1995. May we assume your ignorance in this issue stems from your refusal to actually examine the evidence?You know you're right I missed a couple, one of which was dropped (Maj Brown). Even if you add the other two (note I'm not condoning rape or assault) the article is still over states the issue when you look at the number of people involved and the time period covered. Folks in the military are human beings like you and like you they are fallible, the expectation of perfection is unrealistic and utopian.

[tanigua]

"...As long as Japan remains a satellite of the United States, women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism. As long as the Japanese government refuses to stand up and demand that the American troops based on its territory simply go home, nothing will change….”

The clichéd, hyperbolic ramblings of a tired old man whose expectations for the world differ from those who’d much rather simply go out and live in it. Get back on your meds Chalmers.

[hamsterhuey]

Name one...

You apparently can Google just as well as my wife. Knock yourself out.

[hamsterhuey]

An article in the Asia Times by Chalmers Johnson dissects the current situation, and discusses why the status quo will remain. In his words "...But nothing ever changes. Why?"


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JC05Dh01.html

Eel...what do you think the purpose of a military is? I'm curious.

[dweener]

Eel...what do you think the purpose of a military is? I'm curious.

He knows. The purpose of the military is to give people who are unhappy with life something to bitch about and criticize.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

You apparently can Google just as well as my wife. Knock yourself out.
As I suspected. A bullshit charge against a guy who writes an article you disagree with, but seem not to have the balls to tackle on its merits.

[dweener]

As I suspected. A bullshit charge against a guy who writes an article you disagree with, but seem not to have the balls to tackle on its merits.

Merits? This guy is full of accusations without merit. He throws out what the people were accused of, but none of the aftermath. He says "After each of these incidents and innumerable others that make up the daily police blotter of Japan's most southerly prefecture, the commander of US forces in Okinawa, a Marine Corps lieutenant general, and the American ambassador in Tokyo, make public and abject apologies for the behavior of US troops." Daily? What happened yesterday? what about 4 thursday ago? is that not an exageration.
Let me relate this to my psychology teacher in college. He has 3 PHD's, tenure, had 4 books published, was considered to be the authority on the subject, but was 84 and pooped him self and rambled on about colored folks in his neighborhood. Take that how you will.....

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I see the author being disparaged, without the slightest bit of evidence, other than "some guy's ditzy wife" maybe heard from her hairdresser's shampoo boy about CJ. Not a shred of evidence. Some of our more credible posters pointed out how the author was heavy-handed in one section of his Asia Times piece. Fair enough. We can read the section they refer to, and judge for ourselves. Hamster says his wifey knows the dirt on the author, so we shouldn't believe a word written. Going by what he writes, neither of them have a clue.

[dweener]

I see the author being disparaged, without the slightest bit of evidence, other than "some guy's ditzy wife" maybe heard from her hairdresser's shampoo boy about CJ. Not a shred of evidence. Some of our more credible posters pointed out how the author was heavy-handed in one section of his Asia Times piece. Fair enough. We can read the section they refer to, and judge for ourselves. Hamster says his wifey knows the dirt on the author, so we shouldn't believe a word written. Going by what he writes, neither of them have a clue.

EEL---i hear you. I just got to say, this is a hell of an article to rip on the man about.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

What about the article, besides the previously mentioned heavy-handed bit about "heavily armed man-child soldier-thugs slapping around local ladies", was so hard to swallow?

[dweener]

Haha!!!!!!!!

[tanigua]

What the hell are you guys talking about. Chalmers is an drooling invalid, the Japanese central Govt is happy we're here, and the Okinawan's are stuck in the middle of this this. We need to dial down the emotion and take a deep breath...

[RandomWalker]

The U.S. military (and its personnel, in particular) is the tennis ball caught between the games the politicians must play.

The powers that be in Tokyo are beholden to the right wing groups and also the anti-war leftists. In order to stay in power, they have to placate those groups. Whenever, something bad happens, the Tokyo politicians have to act tough on their stance towards the military, but they have no real wish for them to leave.

The pragmatists, which is the majority of Japanese, know that the U.S. is the only thing that keeps a balance in the East Pacific region and prevents a real arms race.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Okay, this article is biased and inaccurate, ...

Don't mean to call you out on this one, but very few people on earth can challenge this guy on his lifelong research. I've read The Sorrows of Empire and found his research to be right on the money.

Check out his bio for more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalmers_Johnson

[afret20]

It seems like every politician on Okinawa is taking a lot of cheap shots at the US. If it can be proven that this NCO did rape this girl he should be punshed as the law requires. The Okinawan government is reacting with more of a lynch mob mentality. From reading Japan Update it seems that there are enough problems with home gown Okinaan crime to keep them busy. There are criminals in every society. This does not mean that they should be excused. I lived on Okinawa for most of the time between 1955 and 1966. That was in the old USCAR days. I wondered then if Okinawa was ready for self rule and I wonder the same today. Perhaps it is because of the translation into English, but some of the statements Okinawan officials make can only be descried as naive and childish.

[okisteve]

It seems like every politician on Okinawa is taking a lot of cheap shots at the US. If it can be proven that this NCO did rape this girl he should be punshed as the law requires. The Okinawan government is reacting with more of a lynch mob mentality. From reading Japan Update it seems that there are enough problems with home gown Okinaan crime to keep them busy. There are criminals in every society. This does not mean that they should be excused. I lived on Okinawa for most of the time between 1955 and 1966. That was in the old USCAR days. I wondered then if Okinawa was ready for self rule and I wonder the same today. Perhaps it is because of the translation into English, but some of the statements Okinawan officials make can only be descried as naive and childish.

Wow, we need a thread for old-timers like you and Ox and a few others, here and elsewhere. I think everyone can learn something from the experience and others, but when you talk about "not being ready for self-rule", what did USCAR actually do to prepare the Okinawans for self-rule, or for reversion to Japan for that matter?

[guilot]

If any of the Okinawans wanted us here, they would organize counter demonstrations against the radicals and politicians who are dogging us, like they do in Korea.

Nobody wants us here, and we should just pull chocks and get the f*** out. There really isn't a need for us to be here geopolitically either. Russia and China have chilled out, and North Korea is reuniting with S. Korea. It is just a convenient place for us to stash the 20 to 30 thousand troops who are out here. If any Okinawan wanted us here, they would have stuck up for us by now.

[slickmetal]

If any of the Okinawans wanted us here, they would organize counter demonstrations against the radicals and politicians who are dogging us, like they do in Korea.

Nobody wants us here, and we should just pull chocks and get the f*** out. There really isn't a need for us to be here geopolitically either. Russia and China have chilled out, and North Korea is reuniting with S. Korea. It is just a convenient place for us to stash the 20 to 30 thousand troops who are out here. If any Okinawan wanted us here, they would have stuck up for us by now.

Muku please insert sweeping generalization comment here too please :D

[dweener]

If any of the Okinawans wanted us here, they would organize counter demonstrations against the radicals and politicians who are dogging us, like they do in Korea.

Nobody wants us here, and we should just pull chocks and get the f*** out. There really isn't a need for us to be here geopolitically either. Russia and China have chilled out, and North Korea is reuniting with S. Korea. It is just a convenient place for us to stash the 20 to 30 thousand troops who are out here. If any Okinawan wanted us here, they would have stuck up for us by now.

Wow, and we were questioning the "merits" of the guy who wrote the article. Look, they are not going to go and and counter-demostrate because they no we are not going anywhere!

[Gadget]

Where does this guy "Chalmers" live? I'd like to know so that if I'm ever in the part of the world he lives in, I might pay him a visit and show him the real definitions of slugging/beating/raping etc. To say it goes on alot around here shows he doesn't have the command of the english language his PHDs lead others to believe.

dickhead.

[whytimmywhy]

I'm sure that will solve all of our problems.

[dweener]

Where does this guy "Chalmers" live? I'd like to know so that if I'm ever in the part of the world he lives in, I might pay him a visit and show him the real definitions of slugging/beating/raping etc. To say it goes on alot around here shows he doesn't have the command of the english language his PHDs lead others to believe.

dickhead.

I think what you said just proved chalmers's point.................

[Asshat]

I think what you said just proved chalmers's point.................

violence works! Look how well it has served mankind right now! At least the "conservative" American republic thinks it's a good idea.

[dweener]

violence works! Look how well it has served mankind right now! At least the "conservative" American republic thinks it's a good idea.

They are right! I tried to say different, but they beat me up.:mad:

[Asshat]

They are right! I tried to say different, but they beat me up.:mad:

A couple of years ago, I sang "Imagine" in a bar...big USAF dude got real mad at me.

[dweener]

A couple of years ago, I sang "Imagine" in a bar...big USAF dude got real mad at me.

Oh ya? The real reason he was mad is because you picked his song!!! ;)

[hamsterhuey]

I see the author being disparaged, without the slightest bit of evidence, other than "some guy's ditzy wife" maybe heard from her hairdresser's shampoo boy about CJ. Not a shred of evidence. Some of our more credible posters pointed out how the author was heavy-handed in one section of his Asia Times piece. Fair enough. We can read the section they refer to, and judge for ourselves. Hamster says his wifey knows the dirt on the author, so we shouldn't believe a word written. Going by what he writes, neither of them have a clue.

Yep. I read about CJ on the back of my morning pop tarts. Not to mention a degree in cultural anthropology and masters study with the LSE in Asian studies. CJ was a sidenote, and was mainly used as an example of faulty research methodology (see other's references to sweeping generalizations). His sample populations were too small and concentrated, and he typically didn't sample from wider areas or demographic groups for the same work. Ultimately, his individual works, while certainly an impressive compendium, amounted to only several directed survey-studies. One of the things we learned, (and I pass this lesson on to you, free of charge), is not to hitch your wagon and hopes on one source (sort of like the Okinawan people did with little Suki after she tried to sell her ass on her cell phone to Tyrone).

Granted, much like Suki's story, and my claim, and your claim...nothing can be verified.

Poor Eel. You'll have to forgive him. Little Suki's story turned out to be false, and now, just like the Okinawan and Japanese government, he's grasping at straws, to include an obscure regional sociologist. Sorry I made fun of your best buddy, CJ. If I had known insulting him was going to cause you to vent your wrath on my wife, I would have left you and your discredited boyfriend alone.

See how unsatisfying that is? It's like "they" say. Getting into an argument on the internet is sort of like winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics. Sure...you won...but you're still retarded.

[okisteve]

You win!....

Seriously, huey, why don't you post some serious critiques of CJ's work instead of trying to impress us with your superior wisdom.

I'm willing to read anything intelligent.

[hamsterhuey]

I see the author being disparaged, without the slightest bit of evidence, other than "some guy's ditzy wife" maybe heard from her hairdresser's shampoo boy about CJ. Not a shred of evidence. Some of our more credible posters pointed out how the author was heavy-handed in one section of his Asia Times piece. Fair enough. We can read the section they refer to, and judge for ourselves. Hamster says his wifey knows the dirt on the author, so we shouldn't believe a word written. Going by what he writes, neither of them have a clue.

And at the risk of seeing the forest for the trees, I would be more than happy to debate on this. I sat down and made a comment when I didn't have time to do more than jot off a couple of lines. I guess you needed more immediate attention than that, so you saw that as an opportunity to dig on my spouse, for no apparent reason. Well...good for you. I relent. You win the slap fight, girlfriend. Good job.

[hamsterhuey]

You win!....

Seriously, huey, why don't you post some serious critiques of CJ's work instead of trying to impress us with your superior wisdom.

I'm willing to read anything intelligent.

I'll try and dig something up. If I can't find it, I'll scan what I have at home and post it to my website. My apologies upfront, as this will probably take some time.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Dear Hamster,

I'm still waiting for a single example of that third-hand, yet oh so common, information you used to completely dismiss the author and his article. Well?

[hamsterhuey]

Dear Hamster,

I'm still waiting for a single example of that third-hand, yet oh so common, information you used to completely dismiss the author and his article. Well?

No. You're right. CJ was right. I was full of crap and didn't have a clue. Giving up on some pointless argument is easier than trying to change a mind that is already made up. Just assume I was talking out of my ass. You don't need to wait any longer, brother. However, you might take some time to read Chomsky's interchange with Kenzaburo. His leanings are right up your alley, and is certainly more reputable than Johnson.

Enjoy!

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Good guess Hamster. I do enjoy Chomsky's work. I've referenced him in my posts too. Have you a complaint about his credentials as well?

[hamsterhuey]

Good guess Hamster. I do enjoy Chomsky's work. I've referenced him in my posts too. Have you a complaint about his credentials as well?

No. They're both widely published. What's to complain about? I figured he would be one of your influences.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://www.chomsky.info/debates/2002----.htm

Could you highlight the part(s) you take issue with, Hamster?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

What about CJ's credentials...what do you find objectionable?

He sort of retired from the political science faculty at the University of California, San Diego, where he had arrived in 1988 to head the Asian Studies department, after a lifetime at UC Berkeley.
He started there as a student in 1949 and after serving in the Navy and getting an MA and a PhD went on to head the Chinese Studies and political science departments. He has written books on the emergence of communist power in China, several on MITI and the Japanese "economic miracle," a widely used text called "Revolutionary Change," and on other aspects of modern Asian politics and history, earning a fairly widespread reputation as a thoughtful and innovative scholar of Asian affairs.

Chalmers Johnson makes no secret of the fact that he served as a consultant to the CIA between 1967 and 1973, and that during those heady times on campus he was a fierce opponent of campus anti-war demonstrators, whom he viewed as "self-indulgent as well as sanctimonious and who had so clearly not done their homework." He says now that he was a "spear carrier for the empire," but an informed one.

Given his interest in East Asia, it is hardly surprising that Chalmers Johnson has been a leading researcher into the situation on Okinawa, site of the last and the bloodiest battle of World War II. It has 1.3 million people and 39 American military bases, none of which has a thing to do with geopolitical strategy.

Johnson thinks U.S. bases are kept in Okinawa because they've been there a long time, they've become an American habit and – as with service in East Germany for the old Soviet military – American military personnel can live better there than in many domestic military bases. But there have been numerous incidents of rape and/or assault by U.S. servicemen and most Okinawans are extremely resentful of the U.S. presence (although a probably unhealthy percentage of the Okinawan economy has become fairly dependent on it).



http://www.antiwar.com/bock/b042402.html

[hamsterhuey]

http://www.chomsky.info/debates/2002----.htm

Could you highlight the part(s) you take issue with, Hamster?

Upon re-examination, I notice that I never said, or implied, that I had ANY issue with it.

[hamsterhuey]

What about CJ's credentials...what do you find objectionable?



http://www.antiwar.com/bock/b042402.html


And, to this, too, I note that I never found his credentials objectionable.

See? This is why I kind of find it pointless to debate this with you.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Upon re-examination, I notice that I never said, or implied, that I had ANY issue with it.
Very well. You did imply your dissent by stating that "his leanings are right up my alley", but you may retire if you must. On to CJ, then.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

How funny. My wife found some of Johnson's articles over the weekend and was really steaming over them. Then she found out he's been academically discredited in quite a few circles, many of which are liberal and very left leaning.

And, to this, too, I note that I never found his credentials objectionable.

See? This is why I kind of find it pointless to debate this with you.
By passing on your wife's judgement to us all, you do imply assent to her opinion. You suggest his work has somehow been demonstrated to have been false or riddled with errors. His body of work is certainly a part of his credentials.

[hamsterhuey]

Very well. You did imply your dissent by stating that "his leanings are right up my alley", but you may retire if you must. On to CJ, then.

You're so narrowly focused, Eel, my man. Not dissent, just stating the blindlingly obvious. I actually used a lot of Chomsky's work in my senior thesis, just because he's not so regional. I don't buy into some of his rabid anti-military views, just some of them.

What about CJ? I already pointed out my issue...not with him...but his research. And it's actually not a hit on all of his research. (It was on page six of this thread, I believe.) There are several (as I said before, LSE, U of Chicago, SUNY, UCSD and UCLA) that refuse to use much of his East Asian research because (1) it's too directed (research shaped to a thesis, rather than in support of) and (2) it's become too regionally focused. He's got a depth of knowledge, just not a breadth of it. Not like Chomsky. He's an academic. He's got GREAT creds. I don't discount that. But...he is an academic, and he's been in orbit around Berkeley for just a few minutes.

[hamsterhuey]

By passing on your wife's judgement to us all, you do imply assent to her opinion. You suggest his work has somehow been demonstrated to have been false or riddled with errors. His body of work is certainly a part of his credentials.

The only opinion of my wife that I passed on was that she was "steamed". She found out about his discrediting from me (remember...I'm the one that was force-fed CJ during graduate studies). So, I guess she would be assenting to MY opinion, eh? But, hey...she's ditzy. Right. Certainly not as learned in arts and letters as you.

On your second point, we're about to get into a semantic argument that's hardly worth the time. We're going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes credentials. If we're rolling it all into his credentials, then, yes...I think that aspect is of question.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

What about CJ? I already pointed out my issue...not with him...but his research. And it's actually not a hit on all of his research. (It was on page six of this thread, I believe.) There are several (as I said before, LSE, U of Chicago, SUNY, UCSD and UCLA) that refuse to use much of his East Asian research

That's too bad that UCSD won't touch his East Asian research.

In 1962, he began teaching political science at Berkeley until 1988, when he moved to the San Diego campus of the University of California — where he worked until he retired in 1992. http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/AuthorBiography.aspx?AuthorId=475

He taught for thirty years, 1962-1992, at the Berkeley and San Diego campuses of the University of California and held endowed chairs in Asian politics at both of them.http://www.jpri.org/about/officers.html

Wonder why UCSD won't touch him with a ten-foot pole?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

The only opinion of my wife that I passed on was that she was "steamed". She found out about his discrediting from me (remember...I'm the one that was force-fed CJ during graduate studies). So, I guess she would be assenting to MY opinion, eh? But, hey...she's ditzy. Right. Certainly not as learned in arts and letters as you.
You neglected to mention from whom your wife learned.

On your second point, we're about to get into a semantic argument that's hardly worth the time. We're going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes credentials. If we're rolling it all into his credentials, then, yes...I think that aspect is of question.
Most CVs I've seen include publications. How about you?

[hamsterhuey]

That's too bad that UCSD won't touch his East Asian research.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/AuthorBiography.aspx?AuthorId=475

http://www.jpri.org/about/officers.html

Wonder why UCSD won't touch him with a ten-foot pole?

I don't know. Maybe you should ask. The vast majority of the Anthropology department find him repugnant. Maybe it's his cologne. I mean...he was there for a whole four years.

[hamsterhuey]

You neglected to mention from whom your wife learned.


Most CVs I've seen include publications. How about you?

Nope...you got me on that, brother.

[hamsterhuey]

You neglected to mention from whom your wife learned.

Hmmm...didn't know it was a point I needed to mention.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I don't know. Maybe you should ask. The vast majority of the Anthropology department find him repugnant. Maybe it's his cologne.
Good thing he's a poli-sci/econ guy.

Nope...you got me on that, brother.
I know.

???

Sorry...not sure I follow you.
Let's go back to the original post about that.

How funny. My wife found some of Johnson's articles over the weekend and was really steaming over them. Then she found out he's been academically discredited in quite a few circles, many of which are liberal and very left leaning.

Jog your memory?

[hamsterhuey]

Good thing he's a poli-sci/econ guy.


I know.


Let's go back to the original post about that.



Jog your memory?

Maybe if I had been poli-sci/econ, I could have slurped the CJ Kool-Aid, too. Weird how all the departments in a university don't sing the same, happy song, no? Would you like to debate the relative merits of PS/econ vs. Anth?

And, I think I mentioned from whom my wife got this information. No? Oh, wait...yep.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Hell, when I was in school, the various sub-departments in my department bickered endlessly, let alone the interdepartmental competition.

[hamsterhuey]

Hell, when I was in school, the various sub-departments in my department bickered endlessly, let alone the interdepartmental competition.

Indeed.

I see your point, though, and you've made it well. Now I'm just being a contrarian for the sake of arguing.

I'll tell you what. I'll pull out all my old CJ and give it a re-read. In light of recent events, it deserves at least that.

[rich123]

The author here uses his words carefully to make it sound like the highest possible number of troops are here, that rapes and beatings occur daily here and go unreported, and so on. He's written several books which if you just read the title, they show that he's got the anti-imperialist America mindset. When the crap hits the fan and China starts exercising its military might over the region, by the time we show up, Okinawa will endure 1000 times worse what we could do by just continuing the status quo.
However we could use better discipline among troops, because the behavior is unacceptable. Any ideas?

:thumbup1:I wonder how well the Chinese remember the vicious atrocities of WWII put upon them by the nation of Japan. We leave and they will move on Japan at some time with a vengeance that has never been seen.

[okisteve]

:thumbup1:I wonder how well the Chinese remember the vicious atrocities of WWII put upon them by the nation of Japan. We leave and they will move on Japan at some time with a vengeance that has never been seen.

Thank you Ridgemont High delegate.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Thanks to okisteve, I'm now listening to Sammy Hagar...

[Gadget]

I see this stupid argument is still going on. Maybe someone can tell me how much time Johnson has actually spent living amongst the people of Okinawa and it's 39 bases while conducting his research? A day? A week? A year? How about 15 years?

In the 15 years I've lived here, I've seen very little of the falsely spewed bile that comes from his mouth. Have SOFA status people committed crimes? Yes they have. But no where near the amount and seriousness that he claims and far less than even the Okinawan people who live here.

He makes his money by spreading bullshit at the top of his lungs so that he can get more grant money for his next big research project - kinda like the way the vocal minority politicians here do the same in order to get re-elected and beg money from the central government in Tokyo.

All the same breed if you ask me. I feel sorry for anyone who actually believes their bullshit.

[nipponliving]

In the 15 years I've lived here, I've seen very little of the falsely spewed bile that comes from his mouth. Have SOFA status people committed crimes? .


This is the closest I could find. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080226zg.html

[hamsterhuey]

This is the closest I could find. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080226zg.html

That was a pretty interesting article. It makes me think of a story I heard. I'm not sure if it was a local mayor, or the PM (sorry...I know...that's vague). When asked what he thought about crimes committed by servicemembers versus, those committed by nationals, he stated that, for every crime committed by a servicemember, if the military were not here, it would be one less crime he would have to worry about.

It's the "I can talk about my sister, but you can't talk about my sister" effect. If it's Japanese-on-Japanese crime, it's a crime. If it's US-on-Japanese...it's an atrocity. Hey...four years ago, it would have been labeled "terrorism".

[vvloc]

In the 15 years I've lived here, I've seen very little of the falsely spewed bile that comes from his mouth. . . But no where near the amount and seriousness that he claims

CJ's work is quite widely available on the internet, not to mention his books. Perhaps you could share with us a single instance of "falsely spewed bile" or embellished claims.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Johnson was born in 1931 in Phoenix, Arizona. He earned a B.A. degree in Economics in 1953 and a M.A. and a Ph.D. in political science in 1957 and 1961 respectively. All of his degrees were from the University of California, Berkeley. During the Korean War, Johnson served as a naval officer in Japan. He taught political science at the University of California from 1962 until he retired from teaching in 1992. He was best known early in his career for scholarship about China and Japan.

Johnson set the agenda for ten or fifteen years in social science scholarship on China with his book on peasant nationalism. His book MITI and the Japanese Miracle, on the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry was the preeminent study of the country's development and created the bustling subfield of what could be called the political economy of development. He coined the term "developmental state." As a public intellectual, he first led the "Japan revisionists" who critiqued American neoliberal economics with Japan as a model, but also attacked Japan for protectionism. During this period, Johnson acted as a consultant for the Office of National Estimates, part of the CIA, contributing to analysis of China and Maoism.[1]

Johnson was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1976. He served as Director of the Center for Chinese Studies and Chair of the Political Science Department at Berkeley, and held a number of important academic posts in area studies. He was a strong believer in the importance of language and historical training for doing serious research. Late in his career he became well known as a critic of "rational choice" approaches, particularly in the study of Japanese politics and political economy.

Johnson is today best known as a sharp critic of what he sees as American imperialism. His book Blowback won a prize in 2001 from the Before Columbus Foundation, and was re-issued in an updated version in 2004. Sorrows of Empire, published in 2004, updated the evidence and argument from Blowback for the post-9/11 environment and Nemesis concludes the trilogy. Johnson was featured in the Eugene Jarecki-directed film Why We Fight, which won the 2005 Grand Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival.

[bumpofchicken]

CJ's work is quite widely available on the internet, not to mention his books, perhaps you could share with us a single instance of "falsely spewed bile" or embellished claims.

Eelcurb did this with MUCH more panache than you. I'll try. It took me reading, literally, one WHOLE article from Mr. Johnson. Wait. It was the article from this thread.

Quotes are from "The 'rape' of Okinawa".

"Other incidents of bodily harm, intimidation and death continue in Okinawa on an almost daily basis, including hit-and-run collisions between American troops and Okinawans on foot or on auto bikes, robberies and assaults, bar brawls and drunken and disorderly conduct. "

- Here's your challenge, thrown back in your face. Name an incident for each day for the last two weeks. That would be over 300 incidents a year. It seems like we would ALL hear more about this.

"The Japanese government has never even discussed why a large standing army of Americans is garrisoned on Japanese territory, some 63 years after the end of World War II."

- The Japanese government helps write the scenarios for bi-lateral training conducted over a dozen times each year. They must not talk about the other "lateral" in the "bi-lateral" training.

"Couldn't the terms of the treaty be met just as effectively if the marines were sent back to their own country and called on only in an emergency?"

- I guess the North Koreans will e-mail two weeks in advance of an attack? And this from a "naval officer" in the Korean War.

"...women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism."

- This was already pointed out in this very thread. If you don't call this an embellishment, you're sort of a knob.

[bumpofchicken]

Johnson was born in 1931 in Phoenix, Arizona. He earned a B.A. degree in Economics in 1953 and a M.A. and a Ph.D. in political science in 1957 and 1961 respectively. All of his degrees were from the University of California, Berkeley. During the Korean War, Johnson served as a naval officer in Japan. He taught political science at the University of California from 1962 until he retired from teaching in 1992. He was best known early in his career for scholarship about China and Japan.

Johnson set the agenda for ten or fifteen years in social science scholarship on China with his book on peasant nationalism. His book MITI and the Japanese Miracle, on the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry was the preeminent study of the country's development and created the bustling subfield of what could be called the political economy of development. He coined the term "developmental state." As a public intellectual, he first led the "Japan revisionists" who critiqued American neoliberal economics with Japan as a model, but also attacked Japan for protectionism. During this period, Johnson acted as a consultant for the Office of National Estimates, part of the CIA, contributing to analysis of China and Maoism.[1]

Johnson was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1976. He served as Director of the Center for Chinese Studies and Chair of the Political Science Department at Berkeley, and held a number of important academic posts in area studies. He was a strong believer in the importance of language and historical training for doing serious research. Late in his career he became well known as a critic of "rational choice" approaches, particularly in the study of Japanese politics and political economy.

Johnson is today best known as a sharp critic of what he sees as American imperialism. His book Blowback won a prize in 2001 from the Before Columbus Foundation, and was re-issued in an updated version in 2004. Sorrows of Empire, published in 2004, updated the evidence and argument from Blowback for the post-9/11 environment and Nemesis concludes the trilogy. Johnson was featured in the Eugene Jarecki-directed film Why We Fight, which won the 2005 Grand Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival.

Yawn......

[Son Kokujin]

This Johnson moron, and the idiots who support him can go toss the salad of an skunk with explosive diarrhea. Amazing to think that people can make money off just sharing shuch skewed nonsense.

[proudtobnotpc]

Yawn......

dude sorry but I think Ian gave you a pointed and experienced history why do you continue? with the rhetoric it seems to me that perhaps its a never win

[Denise]

i think we should clean our own house up before we try to clean some one else's

[EmbOKJ]

Johnson is an intelectual, schooled in a very liberal institution. The naval experience aside, from what I've read, he's basically applying "theory" to real-world situations - which is basically what liberalism and socialism try to do. Great idea's, but realistic? As for the imperialism...From what I know, a goal of imperiailism is to gain or take resources by taking over other lands (British empire for example). I'm not sure I see anywhere in the world where we are doing this...no - if we were, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be Japan and if we were, I'm pretty sure gas prices wouldn't be closing on 4 bucks a gallon...

[okisteve]

Johnson is an intelectual, schooled in a very liberal institution. The naval experience aside, from what I've read, he's basically applying "theory" to real-world situations - which is basically what liberalism and socialism try to do. Great idea's, but realistic? As for the imperialism...From what I know, a goal of imperiailism is to gain or take resources by taking over other lands (British empire for example). I'm not sure I see anywhere in the world where we are doing this...no - if we were, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be Japan and if we were, I'm pretty sure gas prices wouldn't be closing on 4 bucks a gallon...

Sorry EmbOKJ (are you the US consul-general?:scared:) but it is impossible not to mention imperialism and Iraq in the same breath. The 50+ million barrels a day (or whatever it is) was just too big a prize to leave unclaimed by the US economy. I won't say any more about it, just await other opinions.

[Tony Stacks]

Sorry EmbOKJ (are you the US consul-general?:scared:) but it is impossible not to mention imperialism and Iraq in the same breath. The 50+ million barrels a day (or whatever it is) was just too big a prize to leave unclaimed by the US economy. I won't say any more about it, just await other opinions.

I'm so sick of ppl thinking the Iraq war is about oil! Do I agree with the war? No. Ok, so now we got that out of the way here's a better question. If the war in Iraq was about/for oil then WHY the **** have'nt the gas prices lowered yet? Why are they rising? Why the **** is gas so expensive? Because the war is not about oil plain in simple. Now what it is about is stupid ******* politics.:army:

[okisteve]

There are many reasons not related to Iraq at all why gas prices are high. One does happen to be that Iraq is now still pumping LESS oil than it was before the war. Ooops, my bad.

[DougP]

Some people are still under the impression that a conquest for Oil is supposed to benefit the entire country. When in fact its more beneficial to continue turmoil in the area and hike the price up. Why? Because its in the best interest of those who have a finger in the oil business already. Hmm wonder what well known family has ties with the oil industry? Put it this way, the en devours of a business or of the rich elite are never in the best interest of the common people. $4 a gallon equals more money in someone else's pocket plain and simple. As far as they are concerned we could all go bugger off.

[okisteve]

Dick Cheney was in Saudi last week trying to twist their arms to raise their production so gas prices in the US don't keep helping to tank the economy. I would love to have been a fly on the wall during that conversation. "You want more of our latest fighters, we want more of your black gold. That's a deal we can all live with, eh, Abdullah baby?"

[bumpofchicken]

dude sorry but I think Ian gave you a pointed and experienced history why do you continue? with the rhetoric it seems to me that perhaps its a never win

Yes, he did a good job of copying-and-pasting from Wikipedia. Just like the first article was a copy-and-paste opinion editorial with unsubstantiated facts (reference to Maj Brown, as well as the daily crimes). You're right. Absolutely.

[SPMF#1]

hmm, yet more refferences

[TheLastDon]

Yes, he did a good job of copying-and-pasting from Wikipedia. Just like the first article was a copy-and-paste opinion editorial with unsubstantiated facts (reference to Maj Brown, as well as the daily crimes). You're right. Absolutely.

Yes, it was a beautiful cut and paste job from wikipedia.

[bumpofchicken]

Yes, it was a beautiful cut and paste job from wikipedia.


I especially liked his flourish after dismount. Easily a 9.8. The Romanian judged dinged him on his right-click, though.

[EmbOKJ]

Sorry EmbOKJ (are you the US consul-general?:scared:) but it is impossible not to mention imperialism and Iraq in the same breath. The 50+ million barrels a day (or whatever it is) was just too big a prize to leave unclaimed by the US economy. I won't say any more about it, just await other opinions.

The Iraq war and oil are very related - primarily becuase the worlds economy, not just our own depends on oil - however, that has no likeness to imperialism. It's easy to throw out nice words that provide an instant bad taste to make a point, but equating the war in Iraq to imperialism...that's a stretch, especially when you see that we PAY for the oil along with the rest of the world. Yes, production went down significantly (to nothing for a while). Today, production is back up and rising. Having recently returned from a jaunt in the northern arabian sea - watching tanker after tanker rolling up to KAAOT and MABOT oil terminals, I'd say they are getting back in the game.

[bumpofchicken]

Sorry EmbOKJ (are you the US consul-general?:scared:) but it is impossible not to mention imperialism and Iraq in the same breath. The 50+ million barrels a day (or whatever it is) was just too big a prize to leave unclaimed by the US economy. I won't say any more about it, just await other opinions.

That's a good point, Okisteve. Since you seem pretty well versed on this, could you provide the average oil revenue to the U.S. since March 2003, when the U.S. forcibly seized all of Iraq's oil assets, and immediately began pumping operations? I mean, the money the U.S. has made since the seizure, over the last 5 years, should be staggering. It seems like the other Arab states would have had something to say about it.

Oh, and if you can provide figures to the closest, say...million dollar mark, that would be helpful. I would hate to think that, in this rhetoric-fueled thread, you would resort to throwing out amounts with a "whatever it is". Ooooooops. My bad. Guess you already did.

To use your words, I won't say any more about it. Just await your answer. I should probably grab something to eat. It's probably going to be a while.

[Isaak Brodsky]

"Other incidents of bodily harm, intimidation and death continue in Okinawa on an almost daily basis, including hit-and-run collisions between American troops and Okinawans on foot or on auto bikes, robberies and assaults, bar brawls and drunken and disorderly conduct. "

- Here's your challenge, thrown back in your face. Name an incident for each day for the last two weeks. That would be over 300 incidents a year. It seems like we would ALL hear more about this.

"The Japanese government has never even discussed why a large standing army of Americans is garrisoned on Japanese territory, some 63 years after the end of World War II."

- The Japanese government helps write the scenarios for bi-lateral training conducted over a dozen times each year. They must not talk about the other "lateral" in the "bi-lateral" training.

"Couldn't the terms of the treaty be met just as effectively if the marines were sent back to their own country and called on only in an emergency?"

- I guess the North Koreans will e-mail two weeks in advance of an attack? And this from a "naval officer" in the Korean War.

"...women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism."

- This was already pointed out in this very thread. If you don't call this an embellishment, you're sort of a knob.

Excellent quotes and comments!

The bio only highlights his academic bad-ass-ed-ness, not his willingness to stray into hyperbole for the sake of sensational prose.

[okisteve]

That's a good point, Okisteve. Since you seem pretty well versed on this, could you provide the average oil revenue to the U.S. since March 2003, when the U.S. forcibly seized all of Iraq's oil assets, and immediately began pumping operations? I mean, the money the U.S. has made since the seizure, over the last 5 years, should be staggering. It seems like the other Arab states would have had something to say about it.

Oh, and if you can provide figures to the closest, say...million dollar mark, that would be helpful. I would hate to think that, in this rhetoric-fueled thread, you would resort to throwing out amounts with a "whatever it is". Ooooooops. My bad. Guess you already did.

To use your words, I won't say any more about it. Just await your answer. I should probably grab something to eat. It's probably going to be a while.

Having control over oil supplies is not the same thing as owning them. All those tankers are headed west, not east, and that is the game nowadays. And yes, Iraq receives the oil revenues, which is why their economy is in such great shape now. :rolleyes:

You may recall that the original neo-con plan was that the postwar Iraqi oil revenues were to pay the cost of reconstruction of the country. I guess that hasn't worked out very well, has it? Maybe we should just give it some more time, like McCain says (100 years). It ain't gonna be done by the time you finish lunch, and I can provide references for that.

[EmbOKJ]

Having control over oil supplies is not the same thing as owning them. All those tankers are headed west, not east, and that is the game nowadays. And yes, Iraq receives the oil revenues, which is why their economy is in such great shape now. :rolleyes:

You may recall that the original neo-con plan was that the postwar Iraqi oil revenues were to pay the cost of reconstruction of the country. I guess that hasn't worked out very well, has it? Maybe we should just give it some more time, like McCain says (100 years). It ain't gonna be done by the time you finish lunch, and I can provide references for that.

Actually the majority of those tankers are heading East to India and China.

And Iraq's big oil contracts go to ...
Companies from China, India and other Asian nations are seen getting the first contracts. But don't write off Big Oil just yet.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
April 5 2007: 1:42 PM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Despite claims by some critics that the Bush administration invaded Iraq to take control of its oil, the first contracts with major oil firms from Iraq's new government are likely to go not to U.S. companies, but rather to companies from China, India, Vietnam, and Indonesia.

[okisteve]

Worse yet! Poor planning, poor execution, lousy results.
Companies from China, India and other Asian nations are seen getting the first contracts.
Sorry - they had a free and fair election. Now the Shi'ites can oppress the Sunnis instead of like in the bad old days. At least the Kurds have the sense to get the hell out of there and have their own country (soon).

[bumpofchicken]

Having control over oil supplies is not the same thing as owning them. All those tankers are headed west, not east, and that is the game nowadays. And yes, Iraq receives the oil revenues, which is why their economy is in such great shape now. :rolleyes:

You may recall that the original neo-con plan was that the postwar Iraqi oil revenues were to pay the cost of reconstruction of the country. I guess that hasn't worked out very well, has it? Maybe we should just give it some more time, like McCain says (100 years). It ain't gonna be done by the time you finish lunch, and I can provide references for that.

No no. Don't go politico on me and re-shape the question to suit your needs. You made a claim that the US seized oil fields for their profit. I asked for you to provide proof..

Oh, and I'm well aware of the fact that oil revenues were to pay for construction and the IGFC and ISF. So, you were at least half right on that one. No need to provide proof, since that wasn't the turd you tossed on the table. I'll remind you. I think it was something about the oil fields being a treasure the US couldn't wait to get its greedy hands on. It should be easy to find evidence. Gosh, that much money must stick out like a sore thumb. So...whenever you want to back that claim up...I got a bag of chips from the vending machine.

[bumpofchicken]

Worse yet! Poor planning, poor execution, lousy results.

Sorry - they had a free and fair election. Now the Shi'ites can oppress the Sunnis instead of like in the bad old days. At least the Kurds have the sense to get the hell out of there and have their own country (soon).

Really? The Shi'ites are oppressing the Sunnis? Or is it the other way around. I don't know. It changes every 20 years or so...hard to say which is worse.

Good thing the Kurds are getting out of Iraq. Except for all of the incursions.

[bumpofchicken]

Excellent quotes and comments!

The bio only highlights his academic bad-ass-ed-ness, not his willingness to stray into hyperbole for the sake of sensational prose.


No, the guy is an academic stud. Just my personal thought, but a guy that gets all of his degrees from Berkeley, then goes back for an endowed chair and tenure at...Berkeley. "Suspect" isn't the right word. Considering the climate surrounding...Berkeley...it's just dubious. Sort of like...wow...a professor from Berkeley that villifies America and the military. That's pretty unusual.:rolleyes:

(Take note....that's the proper use of the sarcasm smiley. Unlike some of you that use it instead of periods and commas.)

[okisteve]

Really? The Shi'ites are oppressing the Sunnis? Or is it the other way around. I don't know. It changes every 20 years or so...hard to say which is worse.

Good thing the Kurds are getting out of Iraq. Except for all of the incursions.

You were bound to get something right (see above).

Here is a very recent piece about Iraq's oil. You may not agree with it, but that's fine with me too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm

[Dark_Ronin]

the rape in okinawa........

this is what hapen when you keep a tiger as a pet.

[Gadget]

Someone asked me to point out which of the bile was false - sorry I can't quote the person - not worth my time to go back and find the names but they know who they are -

Read bump of chicken's post after mine...he (she?) did a great job of providing you with some quotes. I don't need to provide any more. How about instead of asking me to provide quotes, you answer my freaking question - how long has chalmers lived here amongst the Okinawans? So far, no one has suggested that he even has.

Someone else said I'm proving CJ's point by suggesting in an earlier post that I'd explain to him the real definitions of rape/beating/assault etc were I to meet him face to face.

My opinion has nothing to do with the fact that I spent 25+ years in the military. It has everything to do with pride in where I come from and my strong feelings that people in positions such as his should not tell lies of the type he has.

Everyone has to be held accountable for the actions they take. CJ included.

Cheers

[Isaak Brodsky]

... how long has chalmers lived here amongst the Okinawans? So far, no one has suggested that he even has.
...

My opinion has nothing to do with the fact that I spent 25+ years in the military. It has everything to do with pride in where I come from and my strong feelings that people in positions such as his should not tell lies of the type he has. ...

With all respect due your service to the nation and you the server, is it actually necessary in this case to "live" in a country or region in order to research it and draw reasonable conclusions?

You'll likely find that a great deal of social science reserach can be conducted outside the communities being researched. Hard sciences, different story. I don't know that CJ has actually lived here in Okinawa. Maybe, he has, maybe not. Maybe in this case, it's a non sequitur.

He's a heavyweight academic whose work is heavily peer-reviewed. This doesn't mean that his shat doesn't stink, but he's got to maintain some integrity.

Since CJ's observations strike such a chord, why not write an editorial to some San Fran paper that illuminates this academic's sloppy scholarship? I'd encourage that. This has nothing do with pride but with calling into question what you see as wholesale distortions.

I agree that the dishonest should be held accountable. That's one reason why I feel that it is imperative Bush and his cronies be brought in for questioning.

[Gadget]

Write a letter to a San Francisco newspaper? I don't think so. I won't elaborate on why.

If CJ has to maintain some integrity then why is he allowed to spew out the falsehoods he does? I really don't give a rats-ass about his particular degrees/awards etc. He chose his path, I chose mine. Doesn't mean his opinions are to be respected more than mine.

And yes, I think if you are going to write a lengthy dissertation about the social situation in a particular location, you should spend some time there. Otherwise all you're doing is writing something that has a lengthy biblio because the "research" was mostly done off someone elses...people then pick and choose what they want to use to get their main points across instead of applying critical thinking during the research project.

I am currently going to school full time so I know a little about the last point I made. It amazes me the numbers of text books and research material I read that contain very little original research. Simply astonishing.

[Isaak Brodsky]

So, as a side note, could you kindly briefly describe your own research project?

[bumpofchicken]

You were bound to get something right (see above).

Here is a very recent piece about Iraq's oil. You may not agree with it, but that's fine with me too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4354269.stm

Very recent? When you Googled "oil revenue" + "U.S." + "Iraq" (gotta love Boolean search strings, right), and you pulled this "very recent piece", did you notice that it's OVER THREE YEARS OLD? Or did the "Two years ago today - when President George Bush announced US, British and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad" line throw you off? Or, look at the top of the page, with the by-line date of 17 March 2005. It's 2008. 2008 - 2005 = 3. Subtraction truly is addition's tricky pal, isn't it?

By your standards, here's some more "recent" headlines.

TITANIC SINKS!

NAZIS SURRENDER!

MAN ON THE MOON!

It's not that I disagree with the article, Okisteve. Using another unsubstantiated article that's 36 months old to bolster your argument. Dunno. Not how I would have gone about it. You just...you know...haven't really provided any proof to your original statement. As I said, I don't know. I guess I'm still waiting for you to enlighten us all. Can't wait!!!

[Gadget]

The biggest one I did was for a multicultural research paper I had to do. I had to do a comparison of different cultures and did mine on the mix of US Military and Okinawa people here. I did library research on the Okinawan people along with reviews of pamphlets/books provided by the Okinawan Government in addition to live interviews of people here (young and old). I did similar to research on the US military although it's harder to find written material that goes beyond simple statistics like troop strength etc. Of course I am former US military so personal experience was a big help.

The paper itself was straightforard comparisons of things like religious beliefs, values, holidays, child care, the apology thing etc. Got a perfect score on it so I was happy.

My paper didnt' take me years to write although it was loosely based on my 14 years here (at the time of the writing) so I figured that a bunch of what I wrote was in fact typical of the differences. I suppose I could have wrote about the guys who drive around in black vans, and the people who come from mainland japan to wrap their hands around Kadena every year. But they are not typical, and as someone else already pointed out, rapes and assaults by americans do not occur daily here.

[bumpofchicken]

With all respect due your service to the nation and you the server, is it actually necessary in this case to "live" in a country or region in order to research it and draw reasonable conclusions?

Yes and no. Like that? Just kidding. For CJ, who is an economist and a poli-sci guy, his work is going to be based on theoretical models, and not much "field work". So, for his specialty, no...he doesn't need to "go native".

However, the article quoted in this thread was an op-ed piece he penned when the facts about the "rape" case were inconclusive, and the girl had re-canted. Since he was speaking outside his area of expertise, I think it's very pertinent to comment on his lack of time spent in the environs about which he draws conclusions. He makes some pretty bold statements. Again, I point out the reference to "near daily" crimes. No one on this board, with any credence whatsover, no matter what your leanings or feelings about CJ, can agree with that statement. Again...they guy is a tenured chair. He didn't just fall into that position. But that is a provocative and patently false statement. He got pissed off. He penned an article. It got published because he's Chalmers Johnson...and some pick it up as gospel truth.

So, in answer to your question...yes and no. If he's writing about theoretical models in his area of expertise, no...no need to live amongst the people. If he's commenting on the daily occurrences of a culture, it is necessary to actually spend an extended period of time there, in order to build up the catalog of evidence necessary to back such a statement up.

[okisteve]

Very recent? When you Googled "oil revenue" + "U.S." + "Iraq" (gotta love Boolean search strings, right), and you pulled this "very recent piece", did you notice that it's OVER THREE YEARS OLD? Or did the "Two years ago today - when President George Bush announced US, British and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad" line throw you off? Or, look at the top of the page, with the by-line date of 17 March 2005. It's 2008. 2008 - 2005 = 3. Subtraction truly is addition's tricky pal, isn't it?

By your standards, here's some more "recent" headlines.

TITANIC SINKS!

NAZIS SURRENDER!

MAN ON THE MOON!

It's not that I disagree with the article, Okisteve. Using another unsubstantiated article that's 36 months old to bolster your argument. Dunno. Not how I would have gone about it. You just...you know...haven't really provided any proof to your original statement. As I said, I don't know. I guess I'm still waiting for you to enlighten us all. Can't wait!!!

Sorry, I saw March 17 but didn't notice the year. My bad. But what's the difference if it was discussing events that took place prior to the invasion? Do you throw away your history books when they get three years old?

And if we are going to limit this discussion to articles that are not unsubstantiated, how about you find something for me that proves your point. Yeah, show me how you would have gone about it.

Yes, I used Google. I also picked the first one that came up, but I am sure there are many more in a similar vein. I tend to trust BBC reporting most of the time, too. Call me biased, I guess.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... another unsubstantiated article that's 36 months old to bolster your argument.

Though only slightly mildewed with age, the article cited is hardly "unsubstantiated"? Why should its contents be dismissed?

[EmbOKJ]

Yes and no. Like that? Just kidding. For CJ, who is an economist and a poli-sci guy, his work is going to be based on theoretical models, and not much "field work". So, for his specialty, no...he doesn't need to "go native".


You put in the perfect statement that is the root of the discussion, in my opinion, "Theoretical". A theory is just that, no matter what topic is being discussed. Until there are undisputed facts involved, a theory is just a theory. Of course there's nothing wrong with coming up with a good theory until a biased opinion is used to convice everyone else that your theory is fact.

[bumpofchicken]

Sorry, I saw March 17 but didn't notice the year. My bad. But what's the difference if it was discussing events that took place prior to the invasion? Do you throw away your history books when they get three years old?

And if we are going to limit this discussion to articles that are not unsubstantiated, how about you find something for me that proves your point. Yeah, show me how you would have gone about it.

Yes, I used Google. I also picked the first one that came up, but I am sure there are many more in a similar vein. I tend to trust BBC reporting most of the time, too. Call me biased, I guess.

No, I don't throw them away. But if something plausible comes along to refute what's in them, I no longer use them as the sole basis for an argument. Then again, I wouldn't call a three-year-old online article about a self-professed "OPEC-watcher" a "history book". Before the first Gulf War, there were murals with Hussein riding in a chariot and defeating the Egyptian hordes. History, no matter how dubious, comes in many forms. It's up to the discerning eye to determine what is history, and what is myth created to bolster a point. You hit the nail on the head. I tend to trust various news sources most of the time, as well. When CNN states that a hurricane in Iowa wiped out all the rice paddies, I tend to wait for the correction where they change "Iowa" to "Indonesia".

On your second paragraph, I'm still waiting for you. Quit throwing out red herrings and starting new arguments. Show me solid evidence that the U.S. seized Iraqi oil fields and is profiting from them (that was your original claim, by the way...all your new topics and arguments might have caused you to forget), and I'll take the time and bother to find something to refute it. Otherwise, you're doing nothing more than screaming "blood for oil!", and there's a whole village of idiots that would welcome you with open arms. I think it's called...Berkeley.

Also on your second point, I didn't throw out a provocative claim, I have nothing to prove. It's like you pulling up an article saying UFOs were flying over Iowa (or maybe it was Indonesia), I come back and call BS, and then you tell me I need to find evidence that they WEREN'T flying over Iowa. So, what evidence should I give you. A picture of the night sky with nothing in it? And, yes...if you're going to make a claim, you should have SUBSTANTIATED evidence to back it up. Your remark that we should include unsubstantiated claims to back up YOUR unsubstantiated claims...that doesn't even make sense!

I go back to my original point. According to your claim, we're making a hell of a lot of money off Iraqi oil. This should be an easy claim to find evidence for.

[DougP]

I think what is even more disturbing about all of this is there is really no idea where the revenues from Iraq's oil production have been going. More or less who is pocketing the money? Now when someone says we(the US) are making money off the oil in Iraq I do not necessarily equate it to America's economy is making money off Iraq's oil. Its a lot more involved than that. One should look into who is getting paid the big money to protect the pipelines and oil plants. More or less which companies have made out rather well during this war. After these companies have been identified follow the money and see who in the US has vested interest in these firms. The phrase follow the money holds true. Just because direct revenue from Iraq's oil production doesn't trade hands with the American economy doesn't exactly dismiss the possibility of American companies and certain individuals with special interests have not been profiting from all of this.

If this hasn't been for the long term investment in Iraq's oil production and ongoing contracts involved in securing and continuing the production of their oil then what is all of this really for? The sovernity of Iraq and the benefit of their people? I find the latter to be even more difficult to swallow.

What is disturbing is that oil production has been up and the question still remains as to where the money is going and what is going to be done with the surplus.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/08/iraq.main/
http://www.upi.com/International_Security/Energy/Briefing/2008/01/29/iraq_oil_production_revenue_up_in_2007/1646/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23578542/

[okisteve]

No, I don't throw them away. But if something plausible comes along to refute what's in them, I no longer use them as the sole basis for an argument. Then again, I wouldn't call a three-year-old online article about a self-professed "OPEC-watcher" a "history book". Your remark that we should include unsubstantiated claims to back up YOUR unsubstantiated claims...that doesn't even make sense!

I go back to my original point. According to your claim, we're making a hell of a lot of money off Iraqi oil. This should be an easy claim to find evidence for.

Actually what I said is that the oilfields were a tempting prize.

Someone here graduated from the "When you're caught with your pants down, yell 'Fire'" school of debate, and it ain't me.

[Muku]

I wonder what does any of the recent posts on this thread about Iraq or Oil have to do with the OP and the "rape" of Okinawa?

Seems like this should have been split off into another one of those "off-topic" replies threads here.

[bumpofchicken]

The 50+ million barrels a day (or whatever it is) was just too big a prize to leave unclaimed by the US economy.

Looks like someone is suffering from "Maybe if I bury it in 100 other replies, everyone will forget about my original comment" school of debate.

Here you insinuate that the daily oil production of Iraq was claimed by the US economy.

It's good to have the original topic back in plain view, isn't it? Maybe it will provide you the focus you need to answer the original question.

Wait...let me check. No...nothing about it being a "tempting prize". Anything else about your original false claim you'd like to change? Seems like your time would be better spent finding evidence to support the above post. Maybe it's with the WMDs! (Oh...and we're not debating WMDs. That was a joke. Sorry if it distracted you.)

[bumpofchicken]

I wonder what does any of the recent posts on this thread about Iraq or Oil have to do with the OP and the "rape" of Okinawa?

Seems like this should have been split off into another one of those "off-topic" replies threads here.

I think we got back on the "question Johnson's credibility" track. Basically, Johnson wrote the piece about the rape, then it was pointed out that he's written about imperialism and America. Then America's involvement in Iraq was used as an example of American imperialism.

I believe that's how it developed. I think starting a new thread would have wasted forum envelopes and stamps, and would have made the electronic landfill overflow with ones and zeroes.:D

[okisteve]

Looks like someone is suffering from "Maybe if I bury it in 100 other replies, everyone will forget about my original comment" school of debate.

Here you insinuate that the daily oil production of Iraq was claimed by the US economy.

It's good to have the original topic back in plain view, isn't it? Maybe it will provide you the focus you need to answer the original question.

Wait...let me check. No...nothing about it being a "tempting prize". Anything else about your original false claim you'd like to change? Seems like your time would be better spent finding evidence to support the above post. Maybe it's with the WMDs! (Oh...and we're not debating WMDs. That was a joke. Sorry if it distracted you.)

Ah, many apologies for assuming people here can interpret a simple statement beyond it's literal meaning. To regard something as an objective before the invasion was launched is not the same thing as actually completing the action, which is what you are suggesting I said. Is it OK if I say that it looked like a tempting prize instead of "too big a prize"? You are trying to put words in my mouth and hoping that it will obscure your careless reading.

Muku - fine with me if this thread gets moved or closed so Chickenmouth can move onto loftier pursuits.

[bumpofchicken]

Ah, many apologies for assuming people here can interpret a simple statement beyond it's literal meaning. To regard something as an objective before the invasion was launched is not the same thing as actually completing the action, which is what you are suggesting I said. Is it OK if I say that it looked like a tempting prize instead of "too big a prize"? You are trying to put words in my mouth and hoping that it will obscure your careless reading.

Muku - fine with me if this thread gets moved or closed so Chickenmouth can move onto loftier pursuits.

Well, I guess since you spent so many replies defending a position you apparently never made, you must be right about me misreading it.:rolleyes:

And, seeing as how you've resorted to namecalling...it's pointless to continue. To me, it's sort of the intellectual equivalent of a child dirtying their pants. I'm sure any further attempts at soliciting proof from you would only garner more changes of story, as well as a few well-chosen epithets thrown at my mother. So, you win through sheer force of ignorance. Besides, I got my oil revenue check in the mail yesterday. There's a fleet of Porsches I've had my eye on for quite some time. Glad I got my piece of the "prize".

[DougP]

I'm all in favor of leaving this thread the way it is. After 15 pages I hope we've covered everything we need to about CJ and his writings. If the creator of the OP wishes for it to be cleaned up then I'll do so.:)

If anyone wishes to continue the off topic discussions that came about a couple of pages back I'd suggest creating another thread. There's more than enough material in the side discussions for it to have its own title and thread. Something better that "Off topic comments from...."

Heck there might already be a thread or to that cover the topic already.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

How about instead of asking me to provide quotes, you answer my freaking question - how long has chalmers lived here amongst the Okinawans? So far, no one has suggested that he even has.



Chalmers Johnson is president of the Japan Policy Research Institute, a non-profit research and public affairs organization devoted to public education concerning Japan and international relations in the Pacific. He taught for thirty years, 1962-1992, at the Berkeley and San Diego campuses of the University of California and held endowed chairs in Asian politics at both of them. At Berkeley he served as chairman of the Center for Chinese Studies and as chairman of the Department of Political Science. His B.A., M.A., and Ph.D. degrees in economics and political science are all from the University of California, Berkeley. He first visited Japan in 1953 as a U.S. Navy officer and has lived and worked there with his wife, the anthropologist Sheila K. Johnson, every year between 1961 and 1998.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/01/24/chalmers-johnson-3/

[okisteve]

Well, I guess since you spent so many replies defending a position you apparently never made, you must be right about me misreading it.:rolleyes:

And, seeing as how you've resorted to namecalling...it's pointless to continue. To me, it's sort of the intellectual equivalent of a child dirtying their pants. I'm sure any further attempts at soliciting proof from you would only garner more changes of story, as well as a few well-chosen epithets thrown at my mother. So, you win through sheer force of ignorance. Besides, I got my oil revenue check in the mail yesterday. There's a fleet of Porsches I've had my eye on for quite some time. Glad I got my piece of the "prize".

Yup, you win. You've discovered Mr. Rolleyes! Now I know I've been licked.

[bumpofchicken]

Chalmers Johnson is president of the Japan Policy Research Institute, a non-profit research and public affairs organization devoted to public education concerning Japan and international relations in the Pacific. He taught for thirty years, 1962-1992, at the Berkeley and San Diego campuses of the University of California and held endowed chairs in Asian politics at both of them. At Berkeley he served as chairman of the Center for Chinese Studies and as chairman of the Department of Political Science. His B.A., M.A., and Ph.D. degrees in economics and political science are all from the University of California, Berkeley. He first visited Japan in 1953 as a U.S. Navy officer and has lived and worked there with his wife, the anthropologist Sheila K. Johnson, every year between 1961 and 1998.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/01/24/chalmers-johnson-3/


(Eelcurb...hope you don't mind.)

THIS IS HOW YOU PROVIDE SUBSTANTIATED PROOF IN ORDER TO ANSWER A QUESTION!!!:thumbup1:

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Honestly, it wasn't hard to find the answer to Gadget's question.

BuzzFlash: Mr. Johnson, you stated earlier that there are over 725 American military bases outside of the United States. On the occupied island of Okinawa, Japan, there are at least 38 separate bases that, as you describe it, occupy the choicest 20 percent of the island. How did your time spent in Okinawa have an impact on how you viewed this concept of the United States as an empire?

Chalmers Johnson: One of the events that led me to write a previous book published in 2000 called Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire was my first visit to Okinawa, even though I'd spent my adult life studying Japan as a professor, and writing about it. Okinawa is the equivalent of Puerto Rico, the southernmost island in the Japanese chain. It was annexed into the Japanese empire in the late 19th Century, just as was Puerto Rico to ours. It's been used as a dumping ground by the Japanese to maintain the Japanese-American security treaty. They want to put the Americans down there so that they don't have contact with mainland Japanese, who would use their political power to get rid of them. They don't like having foreign troops based there, for now well over 50 years.

I was there in 1996, invited by the Governor of Okinawa, because of the fierce reaction that occurred to the event of Sept. 4, 1995, when two Marines and a sailor from Camp Henson in central Okinawa abducted, beat and raped a 12-year-old girl. It led to the biggest demonstrations against the United States since the security treaty had been signed. I began to study these incidents. I discovered that this was not an exceptional incident at all; the rate of sexually violent crimes committed by our troops in Okinawa leading to court martial averages about two per month, and has for half a century. The people of Okinawa are boiling like a volcano over the cost to them of living cheek-by-jowl with 38 American military bases, environmental pollution, prostitution and a whole range of problems.

My first reaction was that I was appalled by Okinawa. My reaction was that it must be exceptional -- that it's just simply off the beaten track. But as I began to study other bases around the world, I had to conclude, unfortunately, that it's not that Okinawa was exceptional or unique. It was far too typical of the conditions that exist around our military bases.
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/03/int04013.html

A little more detail on that visit:

A personal experience five years after the collapse of the Soviet Union also set me rethinking international relations in a more basic way. I was invited to Okinawa by its governor in the wake of a very serious incident. On September 4, 1995, two Marines and a sailor raped a 12-year old girl. It produced the biggest outpouring of anti-Americanism in our key ally, Japan, since the Security Treaty was signed [in 1960].

I had never been to Okinawa before, even though I had spent most of my life studying Japan. I was flabbergasted by the 32 American military bases I found on an island smaller than Kauai in the Hawaiian Islands and the enormous pressures it put on the population there. My first reaction as a good Cold Warrior was: Okinawa must be exceptional. It's off the beaten track. The American press doesn't cover it. It's a military colony. Our military has been there since the battle of Okinawa in 1945. It had all the smell of the Raj about it. But I assumed that this was just an unfortunate, if revealing, pimple on the side of our huge apparatus. As I began to study it, though, I discovered that Okinawa was not exceptional. It was the norm. It was what you find in all of the American military enclaves around the world.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/70243/tomdispatch_interview_chalmers_johnson_on_our_mili tary_empire

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

The impression I get with opponents of CJ is that they're pissed that one of theirs changed sides.

Johnson, who served as a lieutenant (jg) in the Navy in the early 1950s and from 1967-1973 was a consultant for the CIA, ran the Center for Chinese Studies at the University of California, Berkeley for years. He defended the Vietnam War ("In that I was distinctly a man of my times…"), but is probably the only person of his generation to have written, in the years since, anything like this passage from the introduction to his book Blowback: "The problem was that I knew too much about the international Communist movement and not enough about the United States government and its Department of Defense… In retrospect, I wish I had stood with the antiwar protest movement. For all its naiveté and unruliness, it was right and American policy wrong."

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/70243/tomdispatch_interview_chalmers_johnson_on_our_mili tary_empire

[Muku]

I'm all in favor of leaving this thread the way it is. After 15 pages I hope we've covered everything we need to about CJ and his writings. If the creator of the OP wishes for it to be cleaned up then I'll do so.

Well I only have 4 pages but then I have it set that way in the first place:)

But anyway thanks for asking about it first :thumbup:

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Yes Doug, thank you for instructing Muku. The thread shall stand as it is!

[bumpofchicken]

The impression I get with opponents of CJ is that they're pissed that one of theirs changed sides.



http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/70243/tomdispatch_interview_chalmers_johnson_on_our_mili tary_empire

I agree with you. It's what Americans love, hate, and love to hate about their country. It loves its freedom of speech, except when someone uses it. And then they seek ways to restrict it.

I can see their point...it would be irritating to have someone bad mouth the organisation that is, by my research, underpaid to protect those rights. Sort of biting the hand that feeds you. But, I'm sure Johnson has badmouthed his cable installer, his gardener and any number of people. He just hasn't written articles about them.

The other thing that irritates people about him (and this is going to be difficult to understand for people who have never been in the military), is that he was an officer in the US military. An officer's first and foremost job is to ensure the welfare of the men and women he or she leads. To broadbrush colour the entire military as a bunch of gun-toting brownshirts, from a former military officer...that one is a little hard to stomach. I know what I'm about to say will be inflammatory, but it's sort of like one of your own joining the enemy on the battlefield and doing harm to your fellow soldiers because you've suddenly had a change of heart.

[Gadget]

That's the best you could do? Find one quote that says he visited once in 1995? Despite "coming here every year between 1961 and 1968?

Sorry Eel, but one visit to Japan for a few days does not make johnson an expert on Okinawa. You even quoted that he's studied Japan a lot but had never visited here until 1995. WTF? So now he's qualified to make any statement he wants regardless of the truth behind it? Bullshit.

People who have lived here for more than X years makes the person an expert. I let you decide how many years that is. No matter how much you choose, it will be more than the time johnson has spent here.

I stand by my opinion that his crap about Okinawa is just that - crap. He only knows what someone else is telling him - not what he has seen first hand. And the fact that people believe it cause he repeated it boggles the mind. Now I know why some people give out their credit card info to phishers and why others buy swampland in Florida. A sucker truly is born every minute.

And he is lying out his teeth when he says women get raped here daily by US Forces.

**** Charles. And I don't give a rats ass about how many degree's he's had or what positions he's held. He chose his path, I chose mine. Whose to say that teaching at a liberal college like Berkley is more important than spending a lifetime defending your country in a time of war or over several wars?

Or vice versa.

It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

But when people lie about what makes it go round, it's wrong and he belongs in the same category as the mayors around here who spit vomit out of their mouths in public in order to get elected then gladly smile behind closed doors when their paychecks paid by the Central Government get cashed.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

The other thing that irritates people about him (and this is going to be difficult to understand for people who have never been in the military), is that he was an officer in the US military. An officer's first and foremost job is to ensure the welfare of the men and women he or she leads. To broadbrush colour the entire military as a bunch of gun-toting brownshirts, from a former military officer...that one is a little hard to stomach. I know what I'm about to say will be inflammatory, but it's sort of like one of your own joining the enemy on the battlefield and doing harm to your fellow soldiers because you've suddenly had a change of heart.
Yes, that's what I was pointing out. As a military officer, and later a CIA (no, not the Culinary Institute of America, the other CIA) consultant, he supported the Vietnam war and other US foreign policy. He only later came to understand and embrace the other side of the coin.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... The other thing that irritates people about him (and this is going to be difficult to understand for people who have never been in the military), is that he was an officer in the US military. An officer's first and foremost job is to ensure the welfare of the men and women he or she leads. To broadbrush colour the entire military as a bunch of gun-toting brownshirts, from a former military officer...that one is a little hard to stomach. I know what I'm about to say will be inflammatory, but it's sort of like one of your own joining the enemy on the battlefield and doing harm to your fellow soldiers because you've suddenly had a change of heart.

I agree with some of what you say, but some of this stuff is undigestable. I served in the military for seven SHORT years, fought in two foreign campaigns, and knew - even as I served - that the political policies guiding these actions were straight bullshit.

My colleagues and I had few difficulties seeing straight through the first Bush's rhetorical bunk, and we never feared talking openly about the bullshit beyond his public persona.

It seems to me from this post that you are not giving the common man/woman in the battle enough credit for being able to apprehend the difference between truth and fantasy. In my experience, no one really gives two cold turds about what some academic says. They just wanna survive and see their sons and daughters grow up.

You can't polish up a policy that is itself inherently flawed and founded on a deception. No one is ever harmed by calling a turd a turd. The best thing to do with it is evacuate it from your sight and hope that its presence doesn't continue to stink up the place. This idea of continuing the fight for honor is as vacuous.

Conflating the fully justified criticism of Bush and his policies with the people who have sworn to defend the Constitution is not a very honest act.

I can see the evidence each semester that those who serve know the difference.

If I've miscontrued your intent here, sorry 'bout dat.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

That's the best you could do? Find one quote that says he visited once in 1995? Despite "coming here every year between 1961 and 1968?
I'm sure you read carefully, and understood he lived and worked in Japan each year for the period from 1961-1998 (37 years).

Sorry Eel, but one visit to Japan for a few days does not make johnson an expert on Okinawa. You even quoted that he's studied Japan a lot but had never visited here until 1995. WTF? So now he's qualified to make any statement he wants regardless of the truth behind it? Bullshit.As you read carefully, you noticed that he first went to Japan in 1953 as a US Naval officer. He has both Japanese and Chinese language ability. How about you? You do those interviews of Japanese people for your college class report in Japanese? A random sample of the local population. Or just a few base workers who speak English. I think there may have been some sample bias in that report, you know, the one that you seem to think puts you on a par with CJ!

People who have lived here for more than X years makes the person an expert. I let you decide how many years that is. No matter how much you choose, it will be more than the time johnson has spent here.His 37 years of yearly residence and work don't count, along with the additional time spent in Japan as a naval officer? You are strict! But, somehow, your 14 years here (+ a few extra years past since that paper you wrote for your underwater basket-weaving class) trump that?

I stand by my opinion that his crap about Okinawa is just that - crap. He only knows what someone else is telling him - not what he has seen first hand. And the fact that people believe it cause he repeated it boggles the mind. Now I know why some people give out their credit card info to phishers and why others buy swampland in Florida. A sucker truly is born every minute. And he is lying out his teeth when he says women get raped here daily by US Forces. How much time you spent with the governor of Okinawa talking about his and his constituents' views on their homeland and the US military. Does your 14-ish years on Okinawa trump those who were born and raised here?

[Isaak Brodsky]

The compilation of reports found here appears to contradict Johnson's hyperbolic rape stats fantasy.

http://rokdrop.com/2008/02/20/statistics-for-recent-usfj-crime-rate-on-okinawa-released/

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

A page offering a more complete statistical picture. For example, a couple of interesting charts, showing that although arrest rates are relatively close, the US advocate rather successfully for their wayward charges to be released before indictment in comparison to the locals, who have not the benefit of intervention from the government of the world's only superpower ...

SOFA Arrest Rate vs. Overall Okinawa Arrest Rate

In this graph, blue shows the number of SOFA personnel arrested by the Okinawan police per 1000 SOFA personnel stationed in Okinawa. Red shows the overall number of arrests made by the Okinawan police per 1000 Okinawan residents (including SOFA personnel).
http://nihon.awardspace.com/per_capita_arrests.png

SOFA Crime Rate vs. Overall Okinawa Crime Rate

In this graph, blue shows the number of criminal cases brought by the Okinawan police per 1000 SOFA personnel stationed in Okinawa. Red shows the overall number of criminal cases per 1000 Okinawan residents (including SOFA personnel).
http://nihon.awardspace.com/per_capita_cases.png

http://nihon.awardspace.com/okinawa_sofa_crime.html

[bumpofchicken]

I agree with some of what you say, but some of this stuff is undigestable. I served in the military for seven SHORT years, fought in two foreign campaigns, and knew - even as I served - that the political policies guiding these actions were straight bullshit.

My colleagues and I had few difficulties seeing straight through the first Bush's rhetorical bunk, and we never feared talking openly about the bullshit beyond his public persona.

It seems to me from this post that you are not giving the common man/woman in the battle enough credit for being able to apprehend the difference between truth and fantasy. In my experience, no one really gives two cold turds about what some academic says. They just wanna survive and see their sons and daughters grow up.

You can't polish up a policy that is itself inherently flawed and founded on a deception. No one is ever harmed by calling a turd a turd. The best thing to do with it is evacuate it from your sight and hope that its presence doesn't continue to stink up the place. This idea of continuing the fight for honor is as vacuous.

Conflating the fully justified criticism of Bush and his policies with the people who have sworn to defend the Constitution is not a very honest act.

I can see the evidence each semester that those who serve know the difference.

If I've miscontrued your intent here, sorry 'bout dat.

Not so much misconstrued, since what you said is true. I'm going down to the pure nuts and bolts on this. And not really talking about Johnson, per se, but academics as a whole. Bush aside, and national politics and strategy aside, I'm talking about a guy that used to be an officer, who takes an oath to look out for the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who are subordinate to him, turning around and calling all of them, basically, thugs, and then using that dispersion as part of the basis for his arguments.

If conflating lines of reasoning is a dishonest act, I'll argue picking and choosing which lines of reasoning suit your needs, when they're all stated in the same article, is specious logic.

My personal feeling about Johnson is that, while he is a well-thought academic, he doesn't fully understand the strategic role of the US position over here. Why do I say that? I go back to the one quote from this article that I pointed out. Basically, can't Marines do their stated mission of defending the region if they're homestationed in California. That's absurd. It's ludicrous. Quite frankly, we have never had the lift capability to move that many troops that far in that short a time, even before the current war, which took most of our strategic lift and moved it to the Middle East. And that's the short-sightedness that most academics have.

[Isaak Brodsky]

… The other thing that irritates people about him (and this is going to be difficult to understand for people who have never been in the military), is that he was an officer in the US military. An officer's first and foremost job is to ensure the welfare of the men and women he or she leads. … but it's sort of like one of your own joining the enemy on the battlefield and doing harm to your fellow soldiers because you've suddenly had a change of heart.

A couple things worth noting here: (a) “ensuring the welfare” of those in your charge involves the implicit unwritten liability to resist/reject/thwart/question/refuse/frustrate any unjustified or morally depraved policies/strategies planned by superiors – military or civilian – that create the kind of “harm” you are commissioned to avoid. Also, (b), Johnson’s sense of responsibility to those in uniform apparently extends beyond his own active commission; i.e. he’s not letting inept policymakers with inane plans ruin the institution.

Hitler’s henchmen weren’t spared the gallows for offering the “just following orders” defence. Abu Gharib is a more recent example.

Some folks see Johnson’s vitriol emanating from a sort of gut reaction to the military, but other folks see his work as a much wider criticism of the civilian policymakers who issue the orders.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

My personal feeling about Johnson is that, while he is a well-thought academic, he doesn't fully understand the strategic role of the US position over here. Why do I say that? I go back to the one quote from this article that I pointed out. Basically, can't Marines do their stated mission of defending the region if they're homestationed in California. That's absurd. It's ludicrous. Quite frankly, we have never had the lift capability to move that many troops that far in that short a time, even before the current war, which took most of our strategic lift and moved it to the Middle East. And that's the short-sightedness that most academics have.
Could it be that the US is here to protect their market & trading partner, plain and simple? Let's hear from this not-so-academic fellow, who TP has mentioned before...

Butler was known for his outspoken lectures against war profiteering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_profiteer) and what he viewed as nascent fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) in the United States. During the 1930s, he gave many such speeches to pacifist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism) groups. Between 1935 and 1937, he served as a spokesman for the American League Against War and Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_League_Against_War_and_Fascism) (which some considered communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism)-dominated).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler#_note-hans)


In his 1935 book, War Is a Racket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket), Butler presented an exposé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expos%C3%A9_%28journalism%29) and trenchant condemnation of the profit motive behind warfare. His views on the subject are well summarized in the following passage from a 1935 issue of "the non-Marxist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism), socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)" magazine, Common Sense — one of Butler's most widely quoted statements:

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcer) for Big Business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Business), for Wall Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street) and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer), a gangster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangster) for capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism). I helped make Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) and especially Tampico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampico_Affair) safe for American oil interests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_imperialism) in 1914. I helped make Haiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti_%281915-1934%29) and Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba) a decent place for the National City Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citibank) boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America) republics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic) for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua) for the International Banking House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank) of Brown Brothers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Brothers_Harriman) in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Republic) for the American sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugarcane) interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company) in 1903. In China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China) in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil) went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone) a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racket_%28crime%29) in three districts. I operated on three continents."[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler#_note-CommonSense1935)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

[Isaak Brodsky]

Could it be that the US is here to protect their market & trading partner, plain and simple? Let's hear from this not-so-academic fellow, who TP has mentioned before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

eelcurb, great post, i was actually going to mention this one at some point. i make copies of it and distribute it to my students for discussion.

[bumpofchicken]

A couple things worth noting here: (a) “ensuring the welfare” of those in your charge involves the implicit unwritten liability to resist/reject/thwart/question/refuse/frustrate any unjustified or morally depraved policies/strategies planned by superiors – military or civilian – that create the kind of “harm” you are commissioned to avoid. Also, (b), Johnson’s sense of responsibility to those in uniform apparently extends beyond his own active commission; i.e. he’s not letting inept policymakers with inane plans ruin the institution.

Hitler’s henchmen weren’t spared the gallows for offering the “just following orders” defence. Abu Gharib is a more recent example.

Some folks see Johnson’s vitriol emanating from a sort of gut reaction to the military, but other folks see his work as a much wider criticism of the civilian policymakers who issue the orders.

I agree with your points, as they are all self-intuitive. I apologize...I wasn't trying to discredit Johnson. I'm simply pointing out why some, particularly those in the military, take issue with what he says.

Again, when he states, "...As long as Japan remains a satellite of the United States, women and girls in Okinawa will continue to be slugged, beaten and raped by heavily armed young Americans who have no other reason for being there than the pretensions of American imperialism.", he's not talking about civilian policymakers. He's talking about servicemembers. I don't think he states policymakers are raping women and girls. It's servicemembers doin' the rapin' and beatin'.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Totally see your point. :)

[bumpofchicken]

Could it be that the US is here to protect their market & trading partner, plain and simple? Let's hear from this not-so-academic fellow, who TP has mentioned before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

So what you're saying is, we're here, because we gain more profit with Japan as it is right now, rather than being part of China, or North Korea? That we're here out of economic concerns, rather than altruism and a desire to see democracy and freedom prosper?

Um...no shit.

We're not in Iraq so we can pass out candy and stuffed animals to the dirty-faced Iraqi children. We're there because if the oil fields and economy generated by the oil fields were seized by an anti-Western, anti-European country, it would cause a worldwide economic meltdown, that would include the US. (No, Okisteve...it's not the same as what you were saying.)

Everything...EVERYTHING...in society is economy driven. Government, religion, everything. So, yes. We're here to maintain the balance of power in the region.

As someone else said in an earlier reply, if the US military wasn't here to do that, who do you think would? Japan? Think Japan's economy could stand having to activate and train a force that could do for the region what the US military does? I'm not talking about just protecting Japan. Remember, we operate in EVERY country in the Pacific Rim. That's from Russia, down to Australia. Actively operate and train in those countries. And we operate in over a dozen countries simultaneously at any given time. That's on top of maintaining a large presence in two countries (Japan, to include Okinawa, and the ROK).

That would be a lot of raffle tickets and car washes to hold to raise the kind of money Japan would need to stand up that sort of force. I wonder (and, really, I wonder) what parts of Japanese society would suffer (many would argue the way parts of the US have suffered) economically in order to stand up that force. Arts? Scientific research? Local construction projects? I don't know.

Yes...in answer to your question, it is more profitable to keep a US presence over here. I would say that it's profitable for both parties. If there wasn't some economic gain to be had on our part, we probably wouldn't be here. The "A" in "USA" never stood for altruism. Every servicemember knows their primary role is to protect American interests.

[bumpofchicken]

Totally see your point. :)

And, again...I see yours. Next drink's on me.:thumbup:

[bumpofchicken]

Yes, that's what I was pointing out. As a military officer, and later a CIA (no, not the Culinary Institute of America, the other CIA) consultant, he supported the Vietnam war and other US foreign policy. He only later came to understand and embrace the other side of the coin.

I prefer the other CIA, actually. I think they've done more for the world than the Intel Agency.

[bumpofchicken]

Could it be that the US is here to protect their market & trading partner, plain and simple? Let's hear from this not-so-academic fellow, who TP has mentioned before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

In reference to this, Butler was speaking of military actions directed to influence economic gain. And, by actions, I mean active campaigns such as those against the Boxers and plantation owners. Would you compare those to our presence in Japan? If so, how? What are we doing militarily to influence and enable American economic encroachment? What sort of foothold does American industry have in Japan? Again, in reference to the above article.

And, I would argue his point (mainly because he wasn't around to see it), that WW2 and the profits that were made fueling the war brought an end to the Great Depression. In regards to that, I agree with his point that "...[war is a racket that is] international in scope.", to paraphrase.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

You make some good points bump. I do understand that the US, through the CIA, paid a lot of money to the LDP party to rig/buy elections, as well as change and manipulate major business decisions in America's favor. You are familiar with the Lockheed scandals?

[bumpofchicken]

You make some good points bump. I do understand that the US, through the CIA, paid a lot of money to the LDP party to rig/buy elections, as well as change and manipulate major business decisions in America's favor. You are familiar with the Lockheed scandals?

I am, but only remotely. Would you mind providing a source that gives something better than the short paragraph blurbs I've been able to find?

Buying off elections is pretty tame, though. There are a lot of things the CIA does and has done that would make your skin crawl. Although I'm sure you won't find that too hard to believe.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://www.bookrags.com/research/lockheed-scandal-ema-03/
http://www.bookrags.com/news/us-intel-recruited-japan-war-moc/

A couple - the Lockheed scandal and US intelligence recruiting war criminals.

[okisteve]

We're there because if the oil fields and economy generated by the oil fields were seized by an anti-Western, anti-European country, it would cause a worldwide economic meltdown, that would include the US. (No, Okisteve...it's not the same as what you were saying.)



You are correct, but maybe unaware that a telescope has two ends. Given the rapid increase in the consumption of world resources over the last five years by China and India, and given how near we actually are to a global financial meltdown in the year 2008, there might be an excellent if rather post hoc, excuse for controlling the Iraqi oilfields. But I doubt if we were so intensely focused on the welfare of the rest of the world in 2003. Gas over $2.00? Politically unthinkable. Higher corporate mileage standards? Unacceptable.

[hamsterhuey]

You are correct, but maybe unaware that a telescope has two ends. Given the rapid increase in the consumption of world resources over the last five years by China and India, and given how near we actually are to a global financial meltdown in the year 2008, there might be an excellent if rather post hoc, excuse for controlling the Iraqi oilfields. But I doubt if we were so intensely focused on the welfare of the rest of the world in 2003. Gas over $2.00? Politically unthinkable. Higher corporate mileage standards? Unacceptable.

I think we may have been focused on the welfare of the rest of the world. Maybe not improving their welfare(:dead:). But their welfare nonetheless.

(Sorry...I've been looking for an excuse to use that smiley. I guess it's not really a smiley. Thought I'd get back in the game...conversation...whatever.)

Eel...went back and read CJ again. Sorry...can't read and post at the same time. Makes you wonder why, if I hate the guy so much, I have so many of his damn books. Maybe one will get me over my hellacious jet-lag. By the way...California is still there, if anyone was wondering.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... The "A" in "USA" never stood for altruism. Every servicemember knows their primary role is to protect American interests.

Fantastic but sad point. What to do with those who raise their hand to swear to defend the Constitution? Are they just naïve idealists?

[okisteve]

Conceded a point but then changed yer mind! :w00t:Oh well, that's a start.

GWB's altruism started and ended at making Iraq safe for democracy. I think anything else was supposed to be a bonus for American consumers/voters.

[Gadget]

Sorry eel - that was a typo on my part - I knew you quoted 98, I mistyped it.

Regardless of how much time he's spent in mainland Japan, the fact remains he's spent practically none in Okinawa and that he's writing articles based on hearsay and not what he has experienced first hand.

As to my research methods - not that I have to justify anything to you or anyone else who isn't grading my paper but I'll humor you. My live interviews were just that - live, and conducted in Japanese with OKINAWANS (not Japanese who live here), and a large percentage were conducted with people who actually experienced the battle of Okinawa - not people who merely read about it or were told about it.

At any rate, it wasn't a doctoral thesis nor was it to write a book so no, I didn't ask half the population of Okinawa to participate. Nor was it a paper on "should the bases be removed". It was simply a paper on the similarities and differences in our cultures.

It wasn't I who brought up my methods - I think it was Ian who questioned whether or not I knew how to conduct research and so I responded.

Basket weaving? I hardley think a degree in Mathematics is the same as basket weaving, but what ever - you're smarter than me - you win.

Not really, but if it makes you feel better to think so, please do.

BTW - do you think Chalmers will be at the rally this weekend? I mean, he's such and expert on Okinawa and all, and he's so damn important to their cause right?

I'm guessing he won't be - all talk and no action.

Ya'll enjoy the rest of this conversation - I've made my point about the untruthfulness of his article. Anything else is like saying the wife of monica's ex-boyfriend would make a better prez than obama or vice versa. Or we could talk about abortion, or religion, or the death penalty or anything else that is sure to polarize someone somewhere...

Cheers...

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I don't know. Maybe you should ask. The vast majority of the Anthropology department find him repugnant. Maybe it's his cologne. I mean...he was there for a whole four years.
Since CJ's wife is an anthropologist, maybe that has something to do with it.

[hamsterhuey]

Since CJ's wife is an anthropologist, maybe that has something to do with it.

Something...

Knowing how famously many econ, poli-sci and anthro departments get along so smashingly (and, by "smashingly", I refer to having seen lamps being thrown at faculty parties), I can only imagine some of the dinner table conversations in that house.

[hamsterhuey]

Conceded a point but then changed yer mind! :w00t:Oh well, that's a start.

GWB's altruism started and ended at making Iraq safe for democracy. I think anything else was supposed to be a bonus for American consumers/voters.

No, the tequila is making me forget which is the left mouse button, and which is the right. Maybe I should focus on the middle one. It moves less.

[hamsterhuey]

Fantastic but sad point. What to do with those who raise their hand to swear to defend the Constitution? Are they just naïve idealists?

No. The vast majority just want a job. Or vocational training. Or both.

Besides. The country doesn't have to be altruistic. Despite what many thing, it's still one of the best games in town. There will always be some facet of American culture worth defending.

Wow...this thread is becoming an absolute love-fest, isn't it?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Besides. The country doesn't have to be altruistic. Despite what many thing, it's still one of the best games in town. There will always be some facet of American culture worth defending.

Any facet of Okinawan culture worth defending? Japanese? Asian?

[Norobizaka]

37 U.S. Military Bases here? On Okinawa? Ummmmm. Ok. Please eelecurb, tell me all those 37 U.S. Military Bases on Okinawa.

I served here in the USMC and now I live here and even I didn't know that we had 37 U.S. Military Bases.

Please quote bases and locations

[bumpofchicken]

37 U.S. Military Bases here? On Okinawa? Ummmmm. Ok. Please eelecurb, tell me all those 37 U.S. Military Bases on Okinawa.

I served here in the USMC and now I live here and even I didn't know that we had 37 U.S. Military Bases.

Please quote bases and locations

I wondered about that, too. I think he's counting each range, LZ and gunpoint as a location, as well as including housing areas, some of which may have been reverted (Hamaqawa, Kuwae, etc).

[bumpofchicken]

Any facet of Okinawan culture worth defending? Japanese? Asian?

If you ask me, we're here to defend the Helios brewpub on Kokusai, because of their fine Pale Ale that they brew. Would Chalmers Johnson simply let that fall into the hands of the red Chinese?!

[Isaak Brodsky]

If you ask me, we're here to defend the Helios brewpub on Kokusai, because of their fine Pale Ale that they brew. Would Chalmers Johnson simply let that fall into the hands of the red Chinese?!

They've got some damn good suds there.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Count 'em yerselves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Japan

http://www.pref.okinawa.jp/summit/a_la/peace/beigun/index2.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/okinawa-map-jp1.gif

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/okinawa-map-jp2.gif

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://geography.berkeley.edu/projectsresources/JEE/okinawa/map.gif http://geography.berkeley.edu/projectsresources/JEE/okinawa/inset.gif http://geography.berkeley.edu/projectsresources/JEE/okinawa/Airspace.gif

[Isaak Brodsky]

gooooooooooooooooood grief that's a lot of land area and bases!

looks like 33 on the big island of Okinawa alone, unless i've mis-counted.

[Muku]

eel fyi some of the locations on those maps that you provided have been returned already to Okinawan or Japanese control.

I realize that isnt the point you were trying to make, however the maps are not accurate.

Deputy Division Engineering Office, used to be the Army Corp of Engineers Hdq is now the Barclay Court in Urasoe next to the US Consulate.

Geshashi Coast Guard LAN Station has been turned over to the Japanese Coast Guard.

Sobe Communications Area, aka the "zo" was returned a few years ago, along with I am fairly certain some of the other outer island training areas.

Sure they are smaller installations.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Thank you for the update. A very small drop in the bucket, but perhaps a step in the right direction. Big perhaps, as the Henoko issue could easily wipe out what little progress has occurred thus far.

[bumpofchicken]

Thank you for the update. A very small drop in the bucket, but perhaps a step in the right direction. Big perhaps, as the Henoko issue could easily wipe out what little progress has occurred thus far.

Henoko issue? I'm curious. Aside from the obvious...what is the Henoko issue.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Building an offshore air-base to replace Futenma, destroying one of the last remaining habitats of an endangered species.

[bumpofchicken]

Building an offshore air-base to replace Futenma, destroying one of the last remaining habitats of an endangered species.

Well, I guess I regard the Henoko project in much the same way as I regard the Awase project. Or the land stripping north of Nago, near the Resonex hotel. Or Onna. Square mile after square mile of dead coral that won't come back. So, do you think Ourawan will be protected if we don't build an airfield there? Do you think it would remain undeveloped?

How about the mangroves around Naha that were destroyed when they decided to reclaim enough land to connect Naha to the main island. What sort of impact do you think that had on the Okinawan dugong?

Dugong used to populate the entire eastern shoreline's mangroves. Well...when there were mangroves. So, when they stripped the land north of 104 to make the International Trade Village, and then it went into disuse, and now they're stripping more land to build something else (true story...I was there taking pictures just last weekend), think that had any impact on wildlife?

Let's pretend Camp Schwab just...went away. What do you think would happen to the land there? Cultural preserve? Or maybe it would be undergoing development, like the cultural preserve near Onna.

Sorry...the dugong is being invoked because the airfield won't garner as much money as a northern resort complex. It's the Okinawan version of the Spotted Owl.

For every "runway gonna kill the dugong" story, I'm sure I can cite a dozen or more developed-then-disused land stories. Spare me the "base impact on the environment" screed. For every "red-clay runoff" example, I can cite five silting events construction projects have created.

Pardon the cynicism. The idea that the Okinawans are great stewards of the oceans, that they're all "uminchu"...it's a myth. That's pretty much how I feel about the Great Henoko Tragedy. The Okinawans (and, yes...military development as well) forced the Okinawan dugong northward, and it now has a small parcel of waterway near the Tinian mangroves. The off-shore airfield might be the final straw. But, what are the Okinawans doing to reclaim mangrove areas in other parts of the island to make way for the dwindling population? Have they transported dugong down to the mangroves near Route 11?

The dugong didn't become a concern until it became a way to halt development of the runway. You can either have dugong and have planes and helicopters continue to fly over Ginowan, or you can move the dugong (and, it's been done before, and they thrive), close Futenma, and develop the airfield.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Unfortunately, what can be preserved versus what preservation should take place, often hinges on what is politically possible in a certain atmosphere. That decisions to preserve are not consistent across the board in regards to preserving things for and of themselves, should not prevent those efforts from being pursued.

[Gadget]

Jesus H. Christ Eel! Now I know why you defend CJ so much - you post lies the same as he does.

Others have already pointed it out but still, I will too - your map of the bases is very inaccurate. Do you even live here on Okinawa?

Sorry - I know I said I was gonna step out of this conversation but when I saw the map you're posting as fact, I couldn't help myself.

I count at least 8 on the island of Oki that have been given back, the most significant being Yomitan airfield - it was given back before I got here a long time ago. But guess what - the majority of it still looks like it does during the battle of Okinawa. Lots of useable land "given back" but under developed. Way under developed.

I'll let you use your magical research methods - you know, the ones that are better than used in my "basket weaving" degree - to determine what the other 7 are

Wait a minute - is Eel actually CJ in disguise?

On the side topic that's got started...I loath the land fill going on here. As an avid waterman & uminchu, it sickens me to see the reclaimed land projects and new hotels built on pristine beaches going on around here.

I know someone mentioned the majority of reclamation is on dead reefs. I would disagree with that notion. Although portions of the reefs may appear dead, there is a lot of life there. In addition, the "dead reefs" act as a barrier both protecting the island from the sea, and the live corals out at the edge of the reefs from the runoff of the island. Build upon the "dead" reef, and now you have sea-walls and/or buildings right up against the live coral which begins to die off from the runoff coming from the reclaimed land.

I remember in 1993 - Sunabe seawall was one of the best shore dive spots on the island, maybe one of the best dive spots period cause of the numbers of soft corals there. Then they built the desalinazation plant. The water got dirty during the construction and never really cleared up. A lot of the soft corals have died too.

Then there's the quarry up in Nago where tons of dust hava blanketed the coral there killing it all and most definitely turning it lifeless. A few months ago they finished the reclamation project up north of Nago (Haneji I think)...Not sure what the hell that was for - no one lives up there as it is - are they planning their own Jusco?

I really don't want to get into the hotels & beaches...I would like to enjoy some of the rest of my day. But I've seen what hotels have done to my home island of Hawaii, and what they've done to places like Busena.

Reclaim land, build hotels on the beaches, create more construction run off that kills the corals, dump chemicals into the roadside drainage ditches which also runoff into the ocean, instead of using street sweepers, they wet down the roads at construction sites which gets that shit all over our vehicles or flows into the drainage ditches.

Then they wonder why the reefs are dying and there are no more fish.

Wait - it must be the American spearfisherman right?

Its not the US military here that are raping the island of Okinawa...

The Japanese and Okinawans are doing a fine job of that all by themselves.

[bumpofchicken]

Unfortunately, what can be preserved versus what preservation should take place, often hinges on what is politically possible in a certain atmosphere. That decisions to preserve are not consistent across the board in regards to preserving things for and of themselves, should not prevent those efforts from being pursued.

Wow. Profound, circular, and full of legal-ese.

In the words of the illustrious American thinker, James Evans, Jr.:

"Say whaaaaat?"

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Actually bump and gadget, I would agree the Okinawans and their Japanese partners have not been good stewards of the land or sea in the post-war years. I don't see the point, however, in destroying what little natural habit remains. Whether it's the Americans or Japanese trying to destroy Ourawan, they should be opposed.

[bumpofchicken]

Actually bump and gadget, I would agree the Okinawans and their Japanese partners have not been good stewards of the land or sea in the post-war years. I don't see the point, however, in destroying what little natural habit remains. Whether it's the Americans or Japanese trying to destroy Ourawan, they should be opposed.

Absolutely. I agree. They should be. I think that those opposed to intrusion on the dugong habitat, if they were truly opposed...might update the signs up north that have been there for over 8 years.

True story. Once a month I take part in an underwater cleanup. There's usually one or two small ones on either end of the island. Anyway...late August last year, as I was cleaning up the area just north of Schwab, off a beach off 331, you'll never guess what I pulled out of the water.

That's right, kids. A 20-foot-by-6-foot banner proclaiming "Stop Bases Killing Dugong!" It had firmly wrapped itself around a small bed of dead staghorn coral. It took almost two thirds of my tank to untangle it. I guess it had blown itself in the water during a previous typhoon.

[Son Kokujin]

Got any pics?

[bumpofchicken]

Got any pics?

Heh. No, I don't. My wife is the underwater photographer of the family, and she was deployed at the time. I used to take my camera out, until I turned into such a gear bomb that I decided to reduce my load. You know...too many danglies bouncing off the fishies heads. My gadgets were the first thing to go. I guess I had been on so many of those cleanups, it didn't even occur to me to keep a camera in the car. Jeez...that would have been a great one, though!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Wow. Profound, circular, and full of legal-ese.

In the words of the illustrious American thinker, James Evans, Jr.:

"Say whaaaaat?"

That's what my neighbor (named Huey) said when I tried to explain it to him. I like visiting Huey. He has lots of hamsters.

[DougP]

If you have a criticism or remark about a mod or their actions, do not voice that in a thread not created specifically for that. Threads such as those should be created in the Forum Feedback area only. If you post a remark about a mod in an area other than there, whether it be a post fully about the mod, or embedded in an on-topic remark, the whole post will be deleted. The first time a PM will be sent telling you to not do so, the second time you will be given an official warning, the third time one could possibly be infracted with points.

[bumpofchicken]

That's what my neighbor (named Huey) said when I tried to explain it to him. I like visiting Huey. He has lots of hamsters.

Maybe next time, you can give him a brief explanation of split personalities and IP snooping. Sometimes, you have to explain things in abstract terms in order to explain the simple.

[mikersoft]

I remember in 1993 - Sunabe seawall was one of the best shore dive spots on the island, maybe one of the best dive spots period cause of the numbers of soft corals there. Then they built the desalinazation plant. The water got dirty during the construction and never really cleared up. A lot of the soft corals have died too.

Even then it wasn't all that good. I got PADI certified in 1990 and much of the Sunabe area was already looking rough. We'd go way up north for the nicer spots. It's a shame because I'd buy the diving magazines in the PX and see pics of all the awesome reefs around the world (like Palau for instance) and wish Okinawa was that nice. :(

-Mike

[bumpofchicken]

Even then it wasn't all that good. I got PADI certified in 1990 and much of the Sunabe area was already looking rough. We'd go way up north for the nicer spots. It's a shame because I'd buy the diving magazines in the PX and see pics of all the awesome reefs around the world (like Palau for instance) and wish Okinawa was that nice. :(

-Mike

That's funny. We get the two main diving magazines, as well as a few of the dive trade magazines. Sport Diver and Scuba Diving both do a Top 10, 20, 50 and 100 list themed magazine. In the last one (I think it was Sport Diver), they listed Izu as one of the best North Pacific dives. Izu! A cold water, low-viz (compared to Okinawa) dive, where you have to pay the local fishing groups money if you want to dive someplace other than where the tourist companies take you, or if you want to have air in your tires after your dive.

There are still some parts of some dive sites that are great (Sakiyama up north, Yamashiro down south). But, when we went to Sakiyama this weekend, we noticed that developers were out surveying an area for development, and it's in a runoff area. Oh well.

[demonroach]

The military base is important to japan security as well. Also, US relations is important, who do you think 100% bailed out japan with the economic crisis in the 90s? It was the US who invested billions into the japan economy to keep it afloat. W/o the base, japan would have been in many wars by now.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

But the US is fighting the good fight, eh. They'll fight enough for everyone. Kinda like having a beer for your buddy who can't come out. Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Nicaragua...


Officially, the US has fought four wars since the end of WWII. The Korean War (1950-53), the Vietnam War (1964-1973), the first Gulf war (1990-1991), and the second Gulf war (2003-present).

However, it should be noted that none of these are "wars" by legal definition. There was never a declaration of war by Congress. Instead, unspoken support was shown by congress by passing annual budgets that included increases in defense spending to allow for operations to commence and by public support for military action.

This also doesn't account for CIA programs or other cladestine military support and action taken by the US in the Cold War period (the Iran-Contra affair, El Salvador, Laos and Cambodia, to name a few) nor does it account for US military operations under NATO or the UN peacekeepers such as the wars in Croatia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Somalia.

http://iq.lycos.co.uk/qa/show/184/How+many+wars+has+the+USA+fought+since+the+end+of+ WW2%3F/

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Some excerpts from an article every American should read.After the catastrophic attacks of September 11 2001 monumental sorrow and a feeling of desperate and understandable anger began to permeate the American psyche. A few people at that time attempted to promote a balanced perspective by pointing out that the United States had also been responsible for causing those same feelings in people in other nations, but they produced hardly a ripple. Although Americans understand in the abstract the wisdom of people around the world empathizing with the suffering of one another, such a reminder of wrongs committed by our nation got little hearing and was soon overshadowed by an accelerated "war on terrorism."

But we must continue our efforts to develop understanding and compassion in the world. Hopefully, this article will assist in doing that by addressing the question “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” This theme is developed in this report which contains an estimated numbers of such deaths in 37 nations as well as brief explanations of why the U.S. is considered culpable.

This study reveals that U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.

The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.

But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.

The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

It is essential that Americans learn more about this topic so that they can begin to understand the pain that others feel. Someone once observed that the Germans during WWII “chose not to know.” We cannot allow history to say this about our country. The question posed above was “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” The answer is: possibly 10,000.


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/371890.html

[Old Timer]

Some excerpts from an article every American should read.After the catastrophic attacks of September 11 2001 monumental sorrow and a feeling of desperate and understandable anger began to permeate the American psyche. A few people at that time attempted to promote a balanced perspective by pointing out that the United States had also been responsible for causing those same feelings in people in other nations, but they produced hardly a ripple. Although Americans understand in the abstract the wisdom of people around the world empathizing with the suffering of one another, such a reminder of wrongs committed by our nation got little hearing and was soon overshadowed by an accelerated "war on terrorism."

But we must continue our efforts to develop understanding and compassion in the world. Hopefully, this article will assist in doing that by addressing the question “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” This theme is developed in this report which contains an estimated numbers of such deaths in 37 nations as well as brief explanations of why the U.S. is considered culpable.

This study reveals that U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.

The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.

But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.

The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

It is essential that Americans learn more about this topic so that they can begin to understand the pain that others feel. Someone once observed that the Germans during WWII “chose not to know.” We cannot allow history to say this about our country. The question posed above was “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” The answer is: possibly 10,000.


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/371890.html


OK......but I need and demand exacting details, and only a complete investigation can dignify these broad statements in the cases claimed. At first glance maybe, but the claim must be clarified.......in detail. :old:

[Asshat]

Yeah, and I am having trouble finding out how America is responsible for the current mess in the Middle East. And yeah, I posted those links before.

I also marvel that the article doesn't lend itself some credibilty by stating how many people the US has rescued from tyranny, or was on hand to provide aid for natural disasters.

That was a very shallow piece that doesn't begin to examine the statements made within it, relying instead on gross misrepresentations of world affairs.

[sgtwho08]

I was there during the rape that happend in 95 -96, he actually lived 2 rooms down from me and in the middle of the night, NCIS and CID came kicking everybody out there rooms at 03 in the morning, we had no idea what had happened until that monday morning when the 1st Sgt put everybody in formation. When that happended we werent put on any curfew, or locked down,, I cant ercall anything happneing to us actually, I think we were all just not that stupid to let something happen, no matter how drunk or horny we were, except those 3 individuals. This new age of Marines and sailors has pushed me to the point where almost after 12 years its time to post my self and call up my orders to 1st civdiv, couch battalion, its not the marine corps i once loved and it sure isnt the same marines either, im sure alot of us older ones will agree, it isnt what it use to be. This new(er) group of kids, just dont have the discipline that we had, and no matter how bad you try to threaten them with a green/red/gold card there just going to ask the question "why!!" The only way that I will ever see myself getting back to the island that I wanted to retire to one day is (1) if I got a job paying my families way over there for several years, and payed atleast 60tho a year, (2) if I bought 6,000 worth of tickets for my family, or (3) my wifes family bought the tickets,lol. I cant get a job there cause I "dont know anybody there anymore,lol" Well, IM just ranting on, I think alot of people will agree, and Im just expressing my opinion. I still love Okinawa, but its not what it use to be!!

[Bones]

Well SgtWho08,,

Don't believe everything that you hear.

Things are looking pretty good, when compared to three years ago.

Bones

[jrademacher]

the thing that gets me is the rapes by the Japanese and the Okinawans. They happen all the time and barely get media attention. The first time any SOFA member sneezes wrong it gets blown out of proportion.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

the thing that gets me is the rapes by the Japanese and the Okinawans. They happen all the time and barely get media attention. The first time any SOFA member sneezes wrong it gets blown out of proportion.
Unless...unless...you read/listen to the local media, in the local language. Perhaps you should ask Stars & Stripes to include translations of the crime section of the local rags.

[P_chan]

the thing that gets me is the rapes by the Japanese and the Okinawans. They happen all the time and barely get media attention. The first time any SOFA member sneezes wrong it gets blown out of proportion.


Like eel said, the japanese news reports on a lot of JP on JP crime that you won't ever hear about. That is unless you watch the japanese news. Even if they did report more on american crimes, who gives a shit? Also, please tell me how reporting on a break in at someones house and passing out on their couch or raping a 14 year old girl is "blowing things out of proportion". I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty pissed off if I woke up to found some dumb ass drunk marine sleeping in my living room. And you don't even want to know how I'd feel if someone raped my 14 year old daughter.

[jrademacher]

cant really defend against that. some things are blown out of proportion. The incident deserves to be dealt with but most times it/they are used to repel the US from Japan.

[Old Timer]

In mainland crime runs rampant. Most sexed based, and child related. A rash of murders lately. The first 20 minutes are crime, then of course they get down to the main issue......cuisine! <3

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Rampant? Could you give us the current crime rate? Compare it with Okinawa and with say, the US?

[Old Timer]

Rampant? Could you give us the current crime rate? Compare it with Okinawa and with say, the US?

Said in jest, and in comparision to 25/30 years past. "Rampant" based on my warped ability to compare, and negative sense of humor.



http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ja-japan/cri-crime

I'm old, too much work....you compare!

[vvloc]

What faulty memories, or are they just outright lies?

How long has the military been dumping toxic waste in the seas?

Too inconvenient to dispose of it properly?

I was there -- I saw it done myself.

Don't believe it?

There is an advertisement in JU for the washerman.

Verify it with him.

vv




Jesus H. Christ Eel! Now I know why you defend CJ so much - you post lies the same as he does.

Others have already pointed it out but still, I will too - your map of the bases is very inaccurate. Do you even live here on Okinawa?

Sorry - I know I said I was gonna step out of this conversation but when I saw the map you're posting as fact, I couldn't help myself.

I count at least 8 on the island of Oki that have been given back, the most significant being Yomitan airfield - it was given back before I got here a long time ago. But guess what - the majority of it still looks like it does during the battle of Okinawa. Lots of useable land "given back" but under developed. Way under developed.

I'll let you use your magical research methods - you know, the ones that are better than used in my "basket weaving" degree - to determine what the other 7 are

Wait a minute - is Eel actually CJ in disguise?

On the side topic that's got started...I loath the land fill going on here. As an avid waterman & uminchu, it sickens me to see the reclaimed land projects and new hotels built on pristine beaches going on around here.

I know someone mentioned the majority of reclamation is on dead reefs. I would disagree with that notion. Although portions of the reefs may appear dead, there is a lot of life there. In addition, the "dead reefs" act as a barrier both protecting the island from the sea, and the live corals out at the edge of the reefs from the runoff of the island. Build upon the "dead" reef, and now you have sea-walls and/or buildings right up against the live coral which begins to die off from the runoff coming from the reclaimed land.

I remember in 1993 - Sunabe seawall was one of the best shore dive spots on the island, maybe one of the best dive spots period cause of the numbers of soft corals there. Then they built the desalinazation plant. The water got dirty during the construction and never really cleared up. A lot of the soft corals have died too.

Then there's the quarry up in Nago where tons of dust hava blanketed the coral there killing it all and most definitely turning it lifeless. A few months ago they finished the reclamation project up north of Nago (Haneji I think)...Not sure what the hell that was for - no one lives up there as it is - are they planning their own Jusco?

I really don't want to get into the hotels & beaches...I would like to enjoy some of the rest of my day. But I've seen what hotels have done to my home island of Hawaii, and what they've done to places like Busena.

Reclaim land, build hotels on the beaches, create more construction run off that kills the corals, dump chemicals into the roadside drainage ditches which also runoff into the ocean, instead of using street sweepers, they wet down the roads at construction sites which gets that shit all over our vehicles or flows into the drainage ditches.

Then they wonder why the reefs are dying and there are no more fish.

Wait - it must be the American spearfisherman right?

Its not the US military here that are raping the island of Okinawa...

The Japanese and Okinawans are doing a fine job of that all by themselves.

[vvloc]

I can't believe anyone, especially, The Commander, has no comments to make on my observation!




What faulty memories, or are they just outright lies?

How long has the military been dumping toxic waste in the seas?

Too inconvenient to dispose of it properly?

I was there -- I saw it done myself.

Don't believe it?

There is an advertisement in JU for the washerman.

Verify it with him.

vv

[Jazz]

I went swimming in the ocean yesterday. Was that bad for me? No worse than driving down 58 probably..

Seriously though they souldn't dump shit in that beautiful ocean. There's some mighty tasty edibles in there.

[bli182_2001]

I can't believe anyone, especially, The Commander, has no comments to make on my observation!

Why would the commander make a comment on your observation? you are only one person with a one sided mind frame come on now????:thumbdown:

[vvloc]

What faulty memories, or are they just outright lies?

How long has the military been dumping toxic waste in the seas?

Too inconvenient to dispose of it properly?

I was there -- I saw it done myself.

Don't believe it?

There is an advertisement in JU for the washerman.

Verify it with him.

vv

Are you abonnet's twin brother?

Why would the commander make a comment on your observation? you are only one person with a one sided mind frame come on now????:thumbdown: