what about looting?

[P_chan]

I'm not sure where this would go so I just put it in here!

With the impending typhoon I was thinking about when I was in hurricane katrina. There was a lot of looting going on and I remember people saying it was wrong. What do you think? Do you think looting after a storm is right or wrong?

I personally think it's ok, but to some extent. If you break into a store to loot food then it's ok. If the store is already blown open then sure you can go in and take what you want. Since the store is damaged the store owner is just going to file a claim for all his stuff at the insurance company. So why not take some stuff? However, if there is a store that is not damaged and is still locked, it's wrong to break into it and start stealing. UNLESS what your breaking into is a food store to loot food for you and your family. Sorry breaking into a locked up champs sports to steal a pair of nikes is not ok. You don't need those nike's or that jersey to survive so you didn't need to break into that store.

[TheNoNamedOne]

If you break into a store to loot food then it's ok. If the store is already blown open then sure you can go in and take what you want. Since the store is damaged the store owner is just going to file a claim for all his stuff at the insurance company. So why not take some stuff?

What if it is not a large chain store, and in fact is a small mom and pops store? Lots of small stores may not have insurance to recover losses, and these people hope that when they come to their place the next day, they can salvage what is there to keep their livelihood. Looters would not know they are not insured, so is it still ok in your book for these looters to climb through broken windows and doors to help themselves?

I think this is a good thread and some good points brought up, P-chan. I hope you answer my question and work out an ethical answer that is consistent. Perhaps that answer just entails the few have to suffer for the benefit of the many.

In any case, there should be ethics classes starting grade school for our society to work through difficult questions like these -- particularly as growing populations make living together more stressful and as more threats from global warming and the environment visit us.

[P_chan]

Yes it is still ok. If they don't have insurance....well they should have had it, especially if tropical storms are common in their area. I'm sorry but if my family and I are hungry and we don't have any food left after a bad storm, you bet your ass I'm stealing food from where ever I can find it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yes it is still ok. If they don't have insurance....well they should have had it, especially if tropical storms are common in their area. I'm sorry but if my family and I are hungry and we don't have any food left after a bad storm, you bet your ass I'm stealing food from where ever I can find it.

Very hedenistic of you.

You can live 4 to 6 weeks without food. Water can be had after a storm with no problem, and when you have to scoop it up yourself, you can boil it to purify it.

What you want and what you need are two entirely different things.

[Asshat]

Yes it is still ok. If they don't have insurance....well they should have had it, especially if tropical storms are common in their area. I'm sorry but if my family and I are hungry and we don't have any food left after a bad storm, you bet your ass I'm stealing food from where ever I can find it.

American mentality. Who else would depend on the insurance company to make things right? Who else would build on ground that is not only below sea level, but below sea level in a Hurricane zone, then bitch because the federal government, or the insurance company didn't bail their asses out?

If your family is hungry, it is your responsibility to feed them, not the governments, or the insurance companies. If someone wants to build a multi-zillion dollar house on some beach somewhere, deny them insurance. Why should the rest of us pay higher premiums?

In short, your method of justifying thievery is taking the food out of my children's mouths.

After this storm, you'll be surprised to see how a bigger storm generated almost no real damage. And you'll wonder why the most wealthy country in the world has a "Katrina" incident. Looting indeed.

[socalheart]

It's basically wrong to steal. However, there are extenuating circumstances as seen after Hurricane Katrina which provide sufficient reason to take certain thing without paying for them. In one case that I saw on the news, a grocery store manager opened the ruined store and allowed people to take food and water. This was after a state of emergency was declared and no outside help had been brought into that community.

We're lucky enough to be able to go to the military base for assistance in a similar event. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the local grocery stores here started passing out food and water to the local community residents in a state of emergency, much like was done stateside.

After this storm, you'll be surprised to see how a bigger storm generated almost no real damage. And you'll wonder why the most wealthy country in the world has a "Katrina" incident.
As for this, as far as I recall reading and seeing in the news, the "incident" wasn't directly due to storm damage, but to flooding from a poorly designed flood prevention system. Yes, the hurricane caused a lot of damage, but it was only one act in a tragic play.

[Asshat]

As for this, as far as I recall reading and seeing in the news, the "incident" wasn't directly due to storm damage, but to flooding from a poorly designed flood prevention system. Yes, the hurricane caused a lot of damage, but it was only one act in a tragic play.

Good point- Yet it is the entire infrastructure I make an indictment on, as well as the mentallity that "somehow someone else is responsible for taking care of me."

Of course in a natural disaster, people should and will lend assistance. Although they boast of a plan, a tsunami would be a stark test of Okinawa's ability to weather a natural disaster. Or an outbreak of H5N1 on the island. (there are plans for that too, but none of us really want to talk about it)

I do not think there are extenuating curcumstances to steal. A family makes a choice where they live, or how they prepare for emergencies. Then again, their were a lot of poor people affected by Katrina including the homeless. The extenuating curcumstance there is an indictment upon local and federal governments. And maybe on the rest of us.

[P_chan]

All right people this has nothing to do with insurance companies!!! Umichu it seems like your trying to make me seem like some guy who is smashing windows and stealing whatever I want. No I'm talking extreme circumstances where the only way to get food would have been by looting it. I never said a thing about depending on the insurance companies to make things right either. How am I stealing the food out of your childrens mouths? By making you pay higher premiums so you can't afford food? I would pay those higher premiums too! I'm talking major devastation for miles and being at your wits end. Not stealing plasma screen tvs and sports jerseys because there was a hurricane.

Exactly it is my responsibility to feed MY family. If my family is starving and the only way to get food is to steal it, then I don't give a damn about your premiums.

Oh and what do you mean after this storm I'll see how a bigger storm left almost no damage? Are you talking about this typhoon being bigger then Katrina? It's certainly not bigger then Katrina as of right now! Did you personally see the aftermath of Katrina? Were you there? Or were you at home watching the news worrying about your premiums going up?

How am I going to boil water after a disaster where I don't have a house and very limited supplies? Sure I could start a fire but that might even be a little hard. I'm not talking just a normal disaster or anything like that. I'm talking about a major disaster of any kind.

And for the record I hate insurance companies and I don't depend on them. Oh and a lot of people who live on the gulf coast are morons. Why build a flimsy house in a hurricane zone? Either move or have a hurricane resistant concrete house built instead. Unfortunately a lot of people who live there can't afford to do either of those things. A VAST majority of them don't live in zillion dollar beach front homes either.

I do agree that most people have that "it's someone else's fault" mentality. I hate that, man up and take the blame.

[DoctorP]

Instead of looting, why not just leave the area and go to where the food is?

[P_chan]

If that was an option then yes you could do it. But what if it's not an option?

[Asshat]

If that was an option then yes you could do it. But what if it's not an option?

I did point out the poor in my later post. I am not poor, nor apparently are you. So no, I would not put my family in the position where I could not feed them without stealing. Simple as that.

You were the one who brought up insurance...as if when you stole from a store, it was the owner's fault for suffering a loss if she did not have insurance. Whatever. Who the hell pays the premiums for inadequate building construction, weak construction regulations, or looting?

[DoctorP]

If that was an option then yes you could do it. But what if it's not an option?

That was an option for many who were affected by Katrina, and many who are continually affected by storms in the US. They have early warning, but choose to stay and ride it out. Here, we are on an island, and you have less options available to you.

[P_chan]

Getting out BEFORE the storm was an option for many who were stuck in katrina. There were a lot of idiots who decided to not leave until the finally realized how big the storm was but by then it was too late. Where I was at the ocean came up and surrounded us but luckily stayed back enough to where we didn't drown. But they procrastinated and didn't get out in enough time. Where I was at in mississippi we almost got trapped. There were three bridges out of town, and one land route. Two of those bridges were destroyed and the land route road was destroyed. Lucky one bridge survived and the base was ready for the hurricane so we had food. I spent my days immediately after katrina picking up FOD on the flight line so supplies could be flown in. Hell if it was up to me I would have been out of there before the storm but the air force said no.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Looting is mob mentality and might makes right. Both of those are wrong, and unless the moment is one of urgent life or death, then basically it comes down to selfishness over discipline and order -- the marks of civilized man.

If a mom and pops store is the livelihood of a couple, then basically you are saying "my family has the right to life more than you do, and we will force you to forfeit your life for ours." How selfish and arrogant!

In your world view philosophy of might makes right, the mom and pops would be justified in camping out near their store and shooting looters to protect their life -- which is tied to their livelihood.

[DoctorP]

Let's add a spin to this:

Let's say the window is already broken and you are helping yourself. Is the store owner right to shoot you for looting?

[TheNoNamedOne]

An example not in the OP?

I'll be courteous and address it anyway.

Sure, if might makes right is the operating philosophy in natural disasters and one has the perception, whether it is true or not, that one's life is about to be forfeited -- either through being hungry or losing your livelihood.

[DoctorP]

No it was not addressed in the OP, but it is relevent as the OP seems to think that looting would be ok in the right circumstances.

[TheNoNamedOne]

That is right! For it to be ok in the right places, then it must have a wrong time when it is not ok i.e A COMPARISON exists whether it is addressed in the OP or not, and if it WERE addressed in the OP explicitly it would even be more relevant for discussion.

[P_chan]

It depends. I think if you were taking food from a store, the store owner wouldn't shoot you. I think most store owners would be happy to let people take food stuffs right after a natural disaster. But if you were taking food and other stuff from a private residence then yes you would probably get shot and I wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

[Asshat]

You see a difference between an individual's buisness investment, and an individual's home investment? Why would a buisness owner "not" shoot you for robbing his store?

By the way, this storm has now exceeded the wind strength of Katrina. It is currently 143 MPH gusting to 173 MPH, and by the time it reaches Okinawa will have gusts in excess of 184 MPH. Katrina was 140 when it reached landfall.

Is the point of this thread simply to ask what measure someone would take to protect their family? If so, it is a fairly pedant question, since most of us would kill another human to protect our families. In that case, mere "looting" is not an issue.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I would kill to protect and defend when being threatened by another. I would not kill to impose and take from the weaker even if that meant putting my life or my family's life at risk.

A mom and pops store in the example I put forth is weaker and at the mercy of the mob. Is that what one wants to be? A mob? A mere brute beast of a human? Why should we ever hope for or expect to be treated with dignity and mercy at all times when we are not prepared to offer that treatment to those weaker than us?

Perhaps that when we fail to do so we are in the grips of cognitive dissonance or lack the mirror gene.

As humans with a developed mind, morals, and sense of ethics, we are the altruistic species and can choose that.

[Asshat]

As humans with a developed mind, morals, and sense of ethics, we are the altruistic species and can choose that.

Et tu? Up at two? Yes, I have a hard time with the original question. It seemed more natural for me to avoid putting my family in a dangerous or questionable situation. It is what I do now. Probably a large reason I live here now, and definitely a reason why I lived here most of my life. It's about choices.

Someone in the military who is ordered where to live may have a different view on personal choices, yet that same person makes a choice to be in the military.

Maybe I just call it responsibility. I think few of us know how scary it is to be out of reach of help. 1500 miles out to sea in a small boat in a storm kind of scary. The knowledge that one's existance depends entirely upon one's self.

[P_chan]

Exactly you would kill to protect your family. So why wouldn't you loot to feed your family if they are starving? It has nothing to do with morals because you become a victim of circumstance.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Exactly you would kill to protect your family. So why wouldn't you loot to feed your family if they are starving? It has nothing to do with morals because you become a victim of circumstance.

Where has anyone ever died in the top 7 most developed countries of starvation due to a Hurricaine? The example you used with people looting after Katrina showed fat Americans running into super markets -- hardly the picture of people on the verge of starvation.

If your question is conceptual to the extreme, then in a lifeboat situation I may murder someone just to eat them. There you go. We all know that in such examples most may do that, but that doesn't speak to anything about the real life situations those in the U.S. can expect now or in the near future.

Can you provide some examples of people on the verge of starving to death in the U.S. after recent hurricaines in modern times?

[P_chan]

they weren't on the verge of starving to death but they were very hungry and there was no government emergency supplies at first. The only thing to eat were MREs and most of those were reserved for the people living on base. I think most people don't understand that EVERYTHING was washed away after the hurricane. Not only the roads out of town, but a majority of the town itself. So that means that the food stored in their houses was also washed away. So they had to loot from a store in order to get food to eat. Most store owners LET people take food from their stores right after the hurricane.

[Asshat]

they weren't on the verge of starving to death but they were very hungry and there was no government emergency supplies at first. The only thing to eat were MREs and most of those were reserved for the people living on base. I think most people don't understand that EVERYTHING was washed away after the hurricane. Not only the roads out of town, but a majority of the town itself. So that means that the food stored in their houses was also washed away. So they had to loot from a store in order to get food to eat. Most store owners LET people take food from their stores right after the hurricane.

P-Chan, it is very obvious to me that you have a very different view of Katrina than I. You saw it, you lived it, I didn't.

In the end, I have long thought in my life that I should not judge others when I have not been where they've been.

Maybe you are answering your own question better than I could.

Peace out- You're opinions are important. Mine are too, but I am a crumudgeon. :)