Do Something About The Lockdown

[Naminori79]

edited for content

[P_chan]

But that means I actually have to put forth and effort:D

What about people (like myself) who like to complain about it just so they can vent?

[Naminori79]

P Chan, I wouldn't say you lack discipline, you just have an affinity for biting the figurative pillow.

[P_chan]

Pillows are soft!

Care to spam up any other thread with this post?

Oh and for the record, I have never partaken in, nor had an intrest in, butt secks.

[silviasichigo]

I have been in contact with my congress man, So far he has all the info I have recieved in reguards to the LD. He has actually told me I am the 10th person (civilian contractor) that has written him about the situation. We will see what is going to happen 4 of the 5 things you listed have already been complteted.

[badkitty]

I am going to write my mom, she cares!!

[EatMoreFish]

I have been in contact with my congress man, So far he has all the info I have recieved in reguards to the LD. He has actually told me I am the 10th person (civilian contractor) that has written him about the situation. We will see what is going to happen 4 of the 5 things you listed have already been complteted.

By the time they get around to doing anything it will be over.

[DougP]

By the time they get around to doing anything it will be over.

But just in time to have the rules laid out and in writing for the next time this happens. And it will happen again. This one is a lost cause but taking the steps to prevent this kinda thing from occurring again is what's motivating most of us to keep writing and speaking out.

[silviasichigo]

By the time they get around to doing anything it will be over.

I really focused my concerns on a possible cerfew more than the actual lockdown as this lock down does not affect me like it does others..... I know that this lockdown is temporary (just don't know the time frame) I was informed as well by the same congressman that he dealt with the Korean situation but he did not go into detail. I know what my priorities are and they are not the lockdown but the possible cerfew that might come in it's wake.......:thumbdown:

[badkitty]

Okay, I was there for the Korean situation and that WAS NOT pretty. But the lockdown there lasted a week and then we resumed our normal curfew. But we were restricted from going to one area of Seoul.... From what i understand it's still off limits to this day...

[Crazysix]

Why complain ? sit back do your time and then carry on, they are not denying you anything life essential. Sit back drink a beer and watch the whiners complain. Its sucks but do and LF6F and then this will seem like a cake walk.

[Daniela]

Just in case I wanted to complain;
I am a German citizen. Please direct me to the elected official that gives a darn about this in Germany.
Oh yeah, I am still on the German kick <3
Seriously, I am with the beer/wine/cocktail drinking porch sitting kind.
Daniela:w00t:

[Ammoyankee]

By the time they get around to doing anything it will be over.

But what would be funny is if they decided to approach the GOJ with an amendment that would definately include everyone on island that is connected to USFJ. It would be the "Haha B!tches, We Got Your Number Next Time" amendment!

[DougP]

Why complain? Why not? Its not just service members feeling the pinch. Some of the people affect by this order are Japanese citizens who have every right to NOT be restricted in their own country. Seems like a legitimate reason to complain.

The founders of the Constitution were very straight forward and clear. The Government was not to exercise any power not delegated to it by the Constitution. Unfortunately recently, it has been assuming a more totalitarian role enacting laws for which there is no constitutional basis. This order has been created in response to demands from the local public to "do something" about a reoccurring problem. Without bothering to adopt amendments to the current constitution and agreement between the two nations that would make such an order legitimate, the military, for the most part, has ignore the rights of its nations citizens in Japan and the Japanese citizens that are dependent of those persons, those free souls or America. Often they resort to imaginative sophistry to try to make it seem legitimate, while others pick up on this and regurgitate to anyone who questions the legitimacy of this order.

If this weren't bad enough, these so called inherent authoritative rights of the military and its commanders are increasingly being abused to serve purposes and interests that were never intended by the original legislation, the constitution. This of course has been made quite clear in recent years and has now hit home for many here in Okinawa. The result is an increasing crisis of legitimacy, and increasing violations of basic human rights.

If you're still with me I'll explain a few things shortly in detail why it is not best to just shut up and take it now more than ever.

Why is questioning the legitimacy of an order important? Is this order we are under lawful right now? Where does this fall in with military law? How is this a factor when it comes to UCMJ? Well in Section 16(c) and in 14(c) explains what is considered lawful or not. Here it is in black and white for you.
Lawfulness. A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it.

Inference of lawfulness. A order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.

Just remember that part where it says "contrary to the constitution"

Ok, what about federal law?

18 USC 242,This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

also under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Just so you do not miss what I'm about to type next: This could be applied to military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens, either military or civilian.

more to come.

references:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm92.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/statutes.htm

[Hawk1142]

Why complain? Why not? Its not just service members feeling the pinch. Some of the people affect by this order are Japanese citizens who have every right to NOT be restricted in their own country. Seems like a legitimate reason to complain.

The founders of the Constitution were very straight forward and clear. The Government was not to exercise any power not delegated to it by the Constitution. Unfortunately recently, it has been assuming a more totalitarian role enacting laws for which there is no constitutional basis. This order has been created in response to demands from the local public to "do something" about a reoccurring problem. Without bothering to adopt amendments to the current constitution and agreement between the two nations that would make such an order legitimate, the military, for the most part, has ignore the rights of its nations citizens in Japan and the Japanese citizens that are dependent of those persons, those free souls or America. Often they resort to imaginative sophistry to try to make it seem legitimate, while others pick up on this and regurgitate to anyone who questions the legitimacy of this order.

If this weren't bad enough, these so called inherent authoritative rights of the military and its commanders are increasingly being abused to serve purposes and interests that were never intended by the original legislation, the constitution. This of course has been made quite clear in recent years and has now hit home for many here in Okinawa. The result is an increasing crisis of legitimacy, and increasing violations of basic human rights.

If you're still with me I'll explain a few things shortly in detail why it is not best to just shut up and take it now more than ever.

Why is questioning the legitimacy of an order important? Is this order we are under lawful right now? Where does this fall in with military law? How is this a factor when it comes to UCMJ? Well in Section 16(c) and in 14(c) explains what is considered lawful or not. Here it is in black and white for you.


Just remember that part where it says "contrary to the constitution"

Ok, what about federal law?



also under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Just so you do not miss what I'm about to type next: This could be applied to military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens, either military or civilian.

more to come.

references:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm92.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/statutes.htm

DougP, you have every right to complain. This is a unique situation. No, you are not an active duty service member but, you do work for the US military overseas. This kind of thing would never happen in the states. Sorry, in my 15years in the Marines I have never seen this happen in the states. Commanders are given more latitude here than they would conus......

[DougP]

Just want to touch up some stuff about constitutional violations. It appears that there are many of you out there that may not be aware of what actual rights you have. I urge any and all of you that may have doubts about the legitimacy of this order to do a bit of research. Why, because it benefits you.

The Constitution allows criminal prosecution under federal laws on state territory only for treason, counterfeiting, crimes on the high seas, crimes against the law of nations, or violations of civil rights by officials.

Oh wait so that means none of this applies to us over here? Wrong, it does.
Federal criminal laws also apply acts committed on federal territory, including land ceded to the federal government by a state legislature, coastal waters, U.S. flag vessels on the high seas, and the grounds of U.S. embassies (consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States abroad).

Which if you've been following the circle clearly paints a road that leads to: violations of civil rights by officials and depriving citizens of their rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S. is against federal law. Which does apply to us, military from grunts to commanders and the civilians.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/05/iraq8547_txt.htm
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000007----000-.html

[DougP]

DougP, you have every right to complain. This is a unique situation. No, you are not an active duty service member but, you do work for the US military overseas. This kind of thing would never happen in the states. Sorry, in my 15years in the Marines I have never seen this happen in the states. Commanders are given more latitude here than they would conus......

I just hope others get involved. Not to end this current parade, but to prevent this from happening again. I also would like others out there to be more aware of their rights not only as service members, civilians, US citizens but as human beings. Thanks for understanding Hawk:thumbup1:

[Hawk1142]

Just want to touch up some stuff about constitutional violations. It appears that there are many of you out there that may not be aware of what actual rights you have. I urge any and all of you that may have doubts about the legitimacy of this order to do a bit of research. Why, because it benefits you.

The Constitution allows criminal prosecution under federal laws on state territory only for treason, counterfeiting, crimes on the high seas, crimes against the law of nations, or violations of civil rights by officials.

Oh wait so that means none of this applies to us over here? Wrong, it does.
Federal criminal laws also apply acts committed on federal territory, including land ceded to the federal government by a state legislature, coastal waters, U.S. flag vessels on the high seas, and the grounds of U.S. embassies (consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States abroad).

Which if you've been following the circle clearly paints a road that leads to: violations of civil rights by officials and depriving citizens of their rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S. is against federal law. Which does apply to us, military from grunts to commanders and the civilians.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/05/iraq8547_txt.htm
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000007----000-.html

DougP, maybe it benefits you. I am active duty their is not much that I can do.

[Hawk1142]

My problem is that I am a Gunny, and I have to enforce this order wether I agree with it or not.

My wife is local, and I live out in town.....trust me I feel your pain

[Naminori79]

If your response is to shut up and take it, then you deserve it. The reason people like Herr Zilmer are emboldened to take these actions is because of all the people who follow orders without question; in other words, the people who shut up and take it.

Well you deserve it, bite that pillow!! Hope you get used to it!

[DougP]

My problem is that I am a Gunny, and I have to enforce this order wether I agree with it or not.

My wife is local, and I live out in town.....trust me I feel your pain

You are in a pickle right now that's for sure. You would have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this order is illegal. Even though by definition of the UCMJ and federal law it obviously is, there might be some trick up their sleeves they have lying in waiting for something like this. You do not have the breathing room I do to speak up against it. That is one thing I am very thankful for and trust me being prior service, I know how hard it is to keep my trap shut sometimes.:D I sympathize for you as well because I also feel you have all the same rights that I do and every right not to have your freedom of movement restricted. Probably more so because of the line of work you're in. You're the tip of the spear my friend, not I, so I think you should be the one to take the first breath of freedom. Well before I do:thumbup1:

[Hawk1142]

If your response is to shut up and take it, then you deserve it. The reason people like Herr Zilmer are emboldened to take these actions is because of all the people who follow orders without question; in other words, the people who shut up and take it.

Well you deserve it, bite that pillow!! Hope you get used to it!

You must not be in the military than, or you haven't read the UCMJ or you don't remember your oath.....

[P_chan]

If your response is to shut up and take it, then you deserve it. The reason people like Herr Zilmer are emboldened to take these actions is because of all the people who follow orders without question; in other words, the people who shut up and take it.

Well you deserve it, bite that pillow!! Hope you get used to it!

Ummmmm........but they're in the military, they're taught to shut up and take it. Someone in the military no saying "yes sir" is like a quadriplegic trying to masturbate, it just doesn't make sense.

While I agree you shouldn't sit by and say nothing. You have to pick your battles, and some you just can't win. That doesn't make anyone a "pillow biter".

[Hawk1142]

You are in a pickle right now that's for sure. You would have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this order is illegal. Even though by definition of the UCMJ and federal law it obviously is, there might be some trick up their sleeves they have lying in waiting for something like this. You do not have the breathing room I do to speak up against it. That is one thing I am very thankful for and trust me being prior service, I know how hard it is to keep my trap shut sometimes.:D I sympathize for you as well because I also feel you have all the same rights that I do and every right not to have your freedom of movement restricted. Probably more so because of the line of work you're in. You're the tip of the spear my friend, not I, so I think you should be the one to take the first breath of freedom. Well before I do:thumbup1:

My biggest problem is telling Marines to follow my orders, but guess what the gunny isn't going to or doesn't want to follow this one...

[DougP]

Those that are in the military don't have the luxury to just speak out. You have to be very surgical and precise with your words if you want them to be heard, understood and not get you in trouble at the same time. I remember what that was like. Having the ability to speak out without the same fear of reprisal is nice
but it doesn't alway wield as much power as I once thought it would.

Instead of turning on those in the military, who are in a tight position anyway, for not speaking out, yell a little bit louder for them:D

[Tony Stacks]

If your response is to shut up and take it, then you deserve it. The reason people like Herr Zilmer are emboldened to take these actions is because of all the people who follow orders without question; in other words, the people who shut up and take it.

Well you deserve it, bite that pillow!! Hope you get used to it!


Well in the military you can't just "do something about it". I agree with what others posted. YOU should be speaking louder for them!

[Hawk1142]

Those that are in the military don't have the luxury to just speak out. You have to be very surgical and precise with your words if you want them to be heard, understood and not get you in trouble at the same time. I remember what that was like. Having the ability to speak out without the same fear of reprisal is nice
but it doesn't alway wield as much power as I once thought it would.

Instead of turning on those in the military, who are in a tight position anyway, for not speaking out, yell a little bit louder for them:D

I think we all agree that most of the incidents are caused by Marines...

You have to remember that the Marines as a whole are the youngest branch by age in the US military. With that said everybody shouldn't have to pay the price, but these young Marines should be given mopre respect.....

[Tony Stacks]

I think we all agree that most of the incidents are caused by Marines...

You have to remember that the Marines as a whole are the youngest branch by age in the US military. With that said everybody shouldn't have to pay the price, but these young Marines should be given mopre respect.....


My 2 yen,
The only reason there are more incidents caused by Marines is because there are more marines than anyone else. If the numbers were changed and there was more army, airfrorce or navy than their numbers would be the highest.

[Hawk1142]

My 2 yen,
The only reason there are more incidents caused by Marines is because there are more marines than anyone else. If the numbers were changed and there was more army, airfrorce or navy than their numbers would be the highest.

Yes, we need to figure out a way to teach Marines how to behave, or at least act like they don't own the island....

[Tony Stacks]

Yes, we need to figure out a way to teach Marines how to behave, or at least act like they don't own the island....

Get rid of mothers of America, bring back hzing, bring back CCU.

[Jack Baretz]

Yes, we need to figure out a way to teach Marines how to behave, or at least act like they don't own the island....

I hope the CG has been on an Amphib before. The only thing worse than a group of sailors on a Liberty call with 2 or 3 paychecks in their pockets is a group of Marines with that much dough. God help Okinawa when they lift the lockdown order.

[Hawk1142]

I hope the CG has been on an Amphib before. The only thing worse than a group of sailors on a Liberty call with 2 or 3 paychecks in their pockets is a group of Marines with that much dough. God help Okinawa when they lift the lockdown order.


The CG pulled his trump card. What is he going to do the first weekend the lockdown is over and there are 20 incidents.....

[DoctorP]

I hope the CG has been on an Amphib before. The only thing worse than a group of sailors on a Liberty call with 2 or 3 paychecks in their pockets is a group of Marines with that much dough. God help Okinawa when they lift the lockdown order.

Just because the lock down gets repealed...what makes you think that there will be a lot of freedom? It's almost guaranteed that things will not be business as usual around here. Probably very strict curfews and multiple patrols. It would suck to be one of the first idiots to be dragged in for assault, dui, urinating in the street (not you Muku) or pretty much any alcohol related offense.

[DoctorP]

The CG pulled his trump card. What is he going to do the first weekend the lockdown is over and there are 20 incidents.....

exactly! :thumbup1:

[Hawk1142]

Just because the lock down gets repealed...what makes you think that there will be a lot of freedom? It's almost guaranteed that things will not be business as usual around here. Probably very strict curfews and multiple patrols. It would suck to be one of the first idiots to be dragged in for assault, dui, urinating in the street (not you Muku) or pretty much any alcohol related offense.

Of course there will be some sort of curfew, I am thinking it will be midnight...

[Naminori79]

My original and any follow on posts are meant for civilians, contractors or DoD employees, not military folks.

Military folks just have no choice but to do what they are told - I was in that position for 8 years and I sympathize.

I apologize for any bad feelings or loss of warm fuzzies my statements may have caused.

DoD civilians and contractors, if you are not speaking out: how does the pillow taste?

[Craig_Sunabe]

Hey, if I am a US citizen, but don't belong to a State (I don't pay State taxes, as I never actually resided in the states yet)... which one should I contact?

Maybe one that someone on here has already contacted?

Can someone send me a link?

[DoctorP]

Hey, if I am a US citizen, but don't belong to a State (I don't pay State taxes, as I never actually resided in the states yet)... which one should I contact?

Maybe one that someone on here has already contacted?

Can someone send me a link?

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

https://forms.house.gov/htbin/wrep_save

[trianglechoke]

Or you could just go back to the CONUS. What, didn't read the fine print in that contract or was it just the big $$$$ you were looking for? DoDs and contractors -- go back to CONUS where you can get paid half as much, then you can screech about civil rights.


My original and any follow on posts are meant for civilians, contractors or DoD employees, not military folks.

Military folks just have no choice but to do what they are told - I was in that position for 8 years and I sympathize.

I apologize for any bad feelings or loss of warm fuzzies my statements may have caused.

DoD civilians and contractors, if you are not speaking out: how does the pillow taste?

[Tony Stacks]

Or you could just go back to the CONUS. What, didn't read the fine print in that contract or was it just the big $$$$ you were looking for? DoDs and contractors -- go back to CONUS where you can get paid half as much, then you can screech about civil rights.


Go kick sand!

[Hawk1142]

Go kick sand!


Nobody signed up for this....

[trianglechoke]

Our military bases here are not considered any of the below.



Oh wait so that means none of this applies to us over here? Wrong, it does.
Federal criminal laws also apply acts committed on federal territory, including land ceded to the federal government by a state legislature, coastal waters, U.S. flag vessels on the high seas, and the grounds of U.S. embassies (consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States abroad).

[nipponliving]

Check this story from LA Times out..

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080226zg.html

Here's part of it.

Now let's turn to the U.S. military in Okinawa. There are about 42,570 SOFA-covered Americans living in the prefecture. In 2006, 63 SOFA-covered individuals were arrested for penal code offenses. Eleven arrests for special law violations can be estimated. A little math using these numbers gives us an arrest rate of 0.174 percent, about half that of Japanese in Okinawa (0.342) and the entire country (0.351).

Shocked? I am! It's particularly surprising when you consider that almost half the U.S. military population is 25 years old or younger. In fact, 80 percent of U.S. service members are younger than 35. And men comprise nearly 85 percent of the U.S. military force.

If we were to attribute 80 percent of arrests of Japanese in Okinawa to men and women aged 15 to 64, a group that makes up 65.1 percent of the prefecture, the arrest rate among Japanese in this age bracket in Okinawa would rise to 0.420 percent. In fact, we would have to attribute 67 percent of arrests in Okinawa to those under the age of 15 and over the age of 64 before the arrest rate of Japanese in the 15-to-64 age bracket would fall below that of SOFA-covered individuals in the area. Shocking indeed!

[DougP]

Or you could just go back to the CONUS. What, didn't read the fine print in that contract or was it just the big $$$$ you were looking for? DoDs and contractors -- go back to CONUS where you can get paid half as much, then you can screech about civil rights.

More regurgitation. Perhaps you need to go back and read what I posted earlier this evening in this thread. It spells it out to you what the "LAW" really is. Oh and yes I did read the fine print in my contract. Trust me there was nothing in that agreement that stated my rights are now null and void and the CG has the right to illegally restrict my movement when I have not violated any laws. So yes I can screech about civil rights over here as well. I am allowed to according to federal law. The same federal laws that clearly state that my constitutional rights do apply here. You might want to actually do some reading yourself and not just repeat hearsay.

[DougP]

Our military bases here are not considered any of the below.

Uh yes they are.. did you not see the part where it says military???? Did you go to the link and continue to read the rest of that law?

[Hawk1142]

More regurgitation. Perhaps you need to go back and read what I posted earlier this evening in this thread. It spells it out to you what the "LAW" really is. Oh and yes I did read the fine print in my contract. Trust me there was nothing in that agreement that stated my rights are now null and void and the CG has the right to illegally restrict my movement when I have not violated any laws. So yes I can screech about civil rights over here as well. I am allowed to according to federal law. The same federal laws that clearly state that my constitutional rights do apply here. You might want to actually do some reading yourself and not just repeat hearsay.

Who has the right to restrict the movement of anyone who has not committed a crime.....

[DougP]

Ok for those who haven't gone in to any of the links here is some more.

With respect to offenses committed by or against a national of the United States as that term is used in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act—
(A) the premises of United States diplomatic, consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States, including the buildings, parts of buildings, and land appurtenant or ancillary thereto or used for purposes of those missions or entities, irrespective of ownership; and
(B) residences in foreign States and the land appurtenant or ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of those missions or entities or used by United States personnel assigned to those missions or entities.

Saying that anyone in areas such as this are still covered under federal law. which prohibits the violations of civil rights by officials and depriving citizens of their rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

Also I covered what are considered to be unlawful orders under the UCMJ. Its a double wammy isn't it?

[DougP]

Who has the right to restrict the movement of anyone who has not committed a crime.....

Exactly what I've been asking this entire time.:thumbup: So far it seems that nobody has the right to do so. At least not according to federal law and even according to the UCMJ; orders are considered to be unlawful when they are in violation of the constitution.

I'm just waiting for someone to produce something on the contrary in writing.

[Hawk1142]

Exactly what I've been asking this entire time.:thumbup: So far it seems that nobody has the right to do so. At least not according to federal law and even according to the UCMJ orders are considered to be unlawful when they are in violation of the constitution.

I'm just waiting for someone to produce something on the contrary in writing.

My wife is livid, she was born on this island , now some general thinks he can tell her where she can and can't go....

[Jack Baretz]

My original and any follow on posts are meant for civilians, contractors or DoD employees, not military folks.

Military folks just have no choice but to do what they are told - I was in that position for 8 years and I sympathize.

I apologize for any bad feelings or loss of warm fuzzies my statements may have caused.

DoD civilians and contractors, if you are not speaking out: how does the pillow taste?

We have spoken. However, the wheels of justice are slow. The lockdown order had some holes in it which are being pursued. The order allowed Freedom of Worship on the economy which is noble. However, this sparks the question of other Constitutional rights such as liberty and free enterprise. I believe the Free Masons are filing a lawsuit as are other corporations such as Starbucks. Smaller businesses affected by this will also figure it out. Nobody has the right to select the freedoms which are allowed in a free society. Congress is also taking an interest, it will just take time.

[badstreetusa]

My wife is livid, she was born on this island , now some general thinks he can tell her where she can and can't go....

Is your wife SOFA status?

[trianglechoke]

Regurgitation? Hardly. It's called thinking logically on my own, except I won't spew fancy quotes.

We are not on any US federal territory, US state, etc. The Constitution is not here to save you.

We are US citizens in a foreign country. Our rights are whatever Japan says they are based on their laws and the SOFA agreement with the US.

Most of us do not have Japanese visas. Our presence on their territory is legitimized purely by the SOFA agreement.

If you are military, the commander does have the right to limit movements off base in certain situations, including this one.

If you are civilian SOFA, you still have the "right" to move around off base if it is allowed by the Japanese, but the commander also has the right to terminate your contract and your SOFA status as he sees fit.

If they remove your SOFA status, you are now just a foreigner in Japan without any visa or right to be here unless the Japanese say otherwise.




More regurgitation. Perhaps you need to go back and read what I posted earlier this evening in this thread. It spells it out to you what the "LAW" really is. Oh and yes I did read the fine print in my contract. Trust me there was nothing in that agreement that stated my rights are now null and void and the CG has the right to illegally restrict my movement when I have not violated any laws. So yes I can screech about civil rights over here as well. I am allowed to according to federal law. The same federal laws that clearly state that my constitutional rights do apply here. You might want to actually do some reading yourself and not just repeat hearsay.

[DougP]

Regurgitation? Hardly. It's called thinking logically on my own, except I won't spew fancy quotes.

We are not on any US federal territory, US state, etc. The Constitution is not here to save you.

We are US citizens in a foreign country. Our rights are whatever Japan says they are based on their laws and the SOFA agreement with the US.

Most of us do not have Japanese visas. Our presence on their territory is legitimized purely by the SOFA agreement.

If you are military, the commander does have the right to limit movements off base in certain situations, including this one.

If you are civilian SOFA, you still have the "right" to move around off base if it is allowed by the Japanese, but the commander also has the right to terminate your contract and your SOFA status as he sees fit.

If they remove your SOFA status, you are now just a foreigner in Japan without any visa or right to be here unless the Japanese say otherwise.

After reading the above I have come to one conclusion. I have actual federal laws and articles of the UCMJ that back my statements and clearly point out that we do have constitutional rights over here. That is one step above just thinking logically, it is thinking logically with concrete proof to substantiate it.

It is quite clear that I do have a leg to stand on here in light of what you have posted. For one reason and one reason alone. My logic is backed up by laws and in writing. What do you have to back up your claims?

[DougP]

Another thing you were incorrect on is the fact that after you come off SOFA status you are not here in Japan illegally. You have a window of 60 days(coming straight from the Japanese Immigration Office) to secure a visa or leave Japan and come back on tourist or other visa.

[trianglechoke]

Uh yes they are.. did you not see the part where it says military???? Did you go to the link and continue to read the rest of that law?

Yes I did see that. But our bases are not federal territory in the diplomatic sense. Our bases are actually Japanese property, subject to their law. It is not like an embassy. You'll recall that their customs rules apply to you when you land on Kadena, they can rip open your US mail the moment it lands on Kadena and bust you if they don't like your Playboy, they can come on base and arrest you if you did something bad, the drinking age that THEY set is what is observed on base, you drive on the LEFT side of the road on base, etc.

[DougP]

Yes I did see that. But our bases are not federal territory in the diplomatic sense. Our bases are actually Japanese property, subject to their law. It is not like an embassy. You'll recall that their customs rules apply to you when you land on Kadena, they can rip open your US mail the moment it lands on Kadena and bust you if they don't like your Playboy, they can come on base and arrest you if you did something bad, the drinking age that THEY set is what is observed on base, you drive on the LEFT side of the road on base, etc.

That law covers military facilities overseas:thumbup1:

Also it wouldn't nullify the fact that a commanding officer cannot issue an order that is in violation of the constitution. An amendment to the constitution would be required to do so and that would be decided by those well above anyone in the military.

[DougP]

Yes I did see that. But our bases are not federal territory in the diplomatic sense. Our bases are actually Japanese property, subject to their law. It is not like an embassy. You'll recall that their customs rules apply to you when you land on Kadena, they can rip open your US mail the moment it lands on Kadena and bust you if they don't like your Playboy, they can come on base and arrest you if you did something bad, the drinking age that THEY set is what is observed on base, you drive on the LEFT side of the road on base, etc.

Also in the SOFA it covers who has the jurisdiction to deal with crimes committed by SOFA status personnel that are in violation of US law and Japanese law. It does not however cover anything on whether or not the area commander can take punitive action against anyone who violates an illegitimate order(covered in the UCMJ) that's in violation of the constitution.

[trianglechoke]

No, you just have quotes that you string together. It's really not that simple.

Moreover, the commander is not restricting your movement. Are there soldiers holding you down? Are you locked in? You can do what you want.

And they can take your SOFA status.

You just want to keep your SOFA status and not have to deal with rulings that you don't like.

Good luck with that.


After reading the above I have come to one conclusion. I have actual federal laws and articles of the UCMJ that back my statements and clearly point out that we do have constitutional rights over here. That is one step above just thinking logically, it is thinking logically with concrete proof to substantiate it.

[Craig_Sunabe]

And they can take your SOFA status.



In other words...
:dead:Coercion :dead:

[RODSCALIP5]

LOL! I really want to know what makes you guys so special that you feel you need to be above everyone else. Im pretty sure your Congressman/Senators know about the situation, this whole "lockdown" is because of politics, not because some General decided to do it for sh *ts and giggles. Suck it up, it's almost over.

[DougP]

Those are actual laws that I posted. It doesn't get anymore cut and dry then that. They are out there and free for anyone to look at. Be it federal, military(UCMJ) international, NATO etc. Nothing about them are fancy quotes.

And the right to free movement is a constitutional right. It is also a human right protected by NATO. The freedom of movement is where citizen is allowed to travel wherever the citizen is welcome. To be able to engage in free commerce and to not be limited by any means be it physical or coercion.
Doing so would be considered false imprisonment. So by dictating where people can and cannot go, engage in free commerce etc when there are no legal grounds on which to do so. eg. if they have committed a felony, they are very clearly in violation of the freedom of movement. The are restricting us.

The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. If they are to regulate or limit that movement(like they are doing now), it must adhere to the law-making functions of the Congress.

[badstreetusa]

LOL! I really want to know what makes you guys so special...Suck it up, it's almost over.

What makes you so special that you think it's "almost over"?

[trianglechoke]

Hah, it sure is!

Coercion is another word for "consequences" when one has the victim mentality.

In the same way it's coercion that I'd get fired (if i were back in my civilian job) if I told my boss to stuff it whenever I didn't like his rules...

DoDs and contractors that do not like the rules are free to "coerce" back -- by quitting. I am sure a mass quitting of DoDs would have some effect.

In other words...
:dead:Coercion :dead:

[RODSCALIP5]

What makes you so special that you think it's "almost over"?

Answer my question first and then I shall answer yours.............

[DougP]

LOL! I really want to know what makes you guys so special that you feel you need to be above everyone else. Im pretty sure your Congressman/Senators know abou tthe situation, this whole "lockdown" is because of politics, not because some General decided to do it for sh *ts and giggles. Suck it up, it's almost over.

A narrow look into history may give someone the "false" sense that this is almost over when in fact it is the scratch on the broken record that cause the song to repeat itself. This is not the first time that this has happened. If this goes unchecked and civil liberties are thrown out the window because people assume without real sustenance that we have no rights, then it can only happen again.

No body is claiming to be special. What some, including myself are trying to point out, by citing laws, regulations and laying it out in plain english, is that we all have rights. Its is also clear that this order is in violation of it. Of course if nobody cares it will go unchecked. Perhaps those who are content with having their basic freedoms stripped from them or who have been under the impression that they don't exist, wont care to speak out.

[badstreetusa]

Answer my question first and then I shall answer yours.............

Your question isn't for me...you obviously haven't read my posts...I haven't claimed to be above anyone. I've been advising everyone, even those with Japanese/Okinawan wives to obey the "period of reflection".

[trianglechoke]

You are not in the jurisdiction of the united states congress!

Even if I bought your argument that somehow our bases were sovereign territory of the US, the commander is NOT restricting your movement on base.

It's OFF BASE that you're not supposed to go, lest your risk your SOFA rights. OFF BASE = JAPAN.


Those are actual laws that I posted. It doesn't get anymore cut and dry then that. They are out there and free for anyone to look at. Be it federal, military(UCMJ) international, NATO etc. Nothing about them are fancy quotes.

And the right to free movement is a constitutional right. It is also a human right protected by NATO. The freedom of movement is where citizen is allowed to travel wherever the citizen is welcome. To be able to engage in free commerce and to not be limited by any means be it physical or coercion.
Doing so would be considered false imprisonment. So by dictating where people can and cannot go, engage in free commerce etc when there are no legal grounds on which to do so. eg. if they have committed a felony, they are very clearly in violation of the freedom of movement. The are restricting us.

The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. If they are to regulate or limit that movement(like they are doing now), it must adhere to the law-making functions of the Congress.

[DougP]

Answer my question first and then I shall answer yours.............

Answered yours now for my question to you.

What real substantiating proof do you have, maybe a reference, that you could provide us all that we do not have any constitutional rights? Maybe you could explain why even under this order people are afforded the "right" to practice their religion and visit their place of worship. How is it some constitutional rights apply here and others don't?

[Mad Hatter]

Doug, you know that I support about 90% of your arguments, but I think that the triangle has a point.

When we would do a drill; on ship, another country or here on Okinawa... we would run these type of scenarios where bad stuff would happen (air craft crashing into a school, bombings, missile attack...etc) and the commander would issue out an order to do things like, limit e-mail traffic to only high ranking officials, shutdown internet communication, and "lockdown" the civilians or SOFA people.

I think that he is doing this for more than the obvious reason (punishment), he is trying to calm down a few loud mouths and protect us from other "problems" that might occur.

That's just my thoughts on it though.

[whatthe...!!]

What, didn't read the fine print in that contract or was it just the big $$$$ you were looking for? DoDs and contractors -- go back to CONUS where you can get paid half as much, then you can screech about civil rights.

I would have to say you need to know more about some of these contracotrs and what they pay. I know of three companies right next to me that pay very little money. An E-4 with four years (single) when you figure in all of his COLA and other entitlements makes more than some contractors I know. Then you you need to realize that we have to pay for medical and health insurance (I pay just short of $100 per paycheck) while all of yours is free

[RODSCALIP5]

A narrow look into history may give someone the "false" sense that this is almost over when in fact it is the scratch on the broken record that cause the song to repeat itself. This is not the first time that this has happened. If this goes unchecked and civil liberties are thrown out the window because people assume without real sustenance that we have no rights, then it can only happen again.

No body is claiming to be special. What some, including myself are trying to point out, by citing laws, regulations and laying it out in plain english, is that we all have rights. Its is also clear that this order is in violation of it. Of course if nobody cares it will go unchecked. Perhaps those who are content with having their basic freedoms stripped from them or who have been under the impression that they don't exist, wont care to speak out.


Do you honestly think the U.S. Government is going to risk National Security and your SAFETY just because you feel your "freedom of movement" is being compromised? I don't like the fact that some of you assume Gen. Zilmer did this on his own accord. None of the higher ups are happy with this "lockdown", trust me, we're not happy.

[DougP]

You are not in the jurisdiction of the united states congress!

Even if I bought your argument that somehow our bases were sovereign territory of the US, the commander is NOT restricting your movement on base.

It's OFF BASE that you're not supposed to go, lest your risk your SOFA rights. OFF BASE = JAPAN.

Why am I not allowed to go off base when I live off base, in fact I am there right now. My house does not belong to the US military.

Now seriously I showed you in black and white text where it states under federal law, that the constitution does still apply to us. Can you show me where it states that because we are under SOFA in Japan we do not have any rights? As I stated before, you still have the right to visit your place of worship and practice your religion. How could you do that if you have no constitutional rights here in Japan under SOFA?

Where did you get this information. Remember saying "using simple logic" often equates to: "I heard someone else say it."

[Naminori79]

Your question isn't for me...you obviously haven't read my posts...I haven't claimed to be above anyone. I've been advising everyone, even those with Japanese/Okinawan wives to obey the "period of reflection".

No doubt the order should be obeyed, but that does not mean we cannot challenge it in a constructive manner.

I will play the man's game but I am not going to lick his boots.

[trianglechoke]

The SOFA agreement with Japan holds that -- if one loses SOFA rights -- that person has to be removed from Japan expeditiously at the expense of the US government at the request of the Japanese. You aren't automatically empowered with the right to meander about and ask for a visa. If you separate from the military on island and they don't dislike you you, sure they can let you have a visa. But they can also make you go away at cost to the US ASAP.

Another thing you were incorrect on is the fact that after you come off SOFA status you are not here in Japan illegally. You have a window of 60 days(coming straight from the Japanese Immigration Office) to secure a visa or leave Japan and come back on tourist or other visa.

[DougP]

Do you honestly think the U.S. Government is going to risk National Security and your SAFETY just because you feel your "freedom of movement" is being compromised? I don't like the fact that some of you assume Gen. Zilmer did this on his own accord. None of the higher ups are happy with this "lockdown", trust me, we're not happy.

Where is the national security crisis in this? If the PM of Japan called for the heads of 50 service members and their families would it be ok to proceed with that as well? Just for the sake of national security?

There is truth in this phrase: Those who are willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither.

[trianglechoke]

Because the portion you forgot to quote states that the blah blah blah about federal jurisdiction this and constitution that does NOT preempt any international treaties. Read the whole thing.

And the SOFA agreement says we are under the laws of Japan.



Why am I not allowed to go off base when I live off base, in fact I am there right now. My house does not belong to the US military.

Now seriously I showed you in black and white text where it states under federal law, that the constitution does still apply to us. Can you show me where it states that because we are under SOFA in Japan we do not have any rights? As I stated before, you still have the right to visit your place of worship and practice your religion. How could you do that if you have no constitutional rights here in Japan under SOFA?

Where did you get this information. Remember saying "using simple logic" often equates to: "I heard someone else say it."

[DougP]

The SOFA agreement with Japan holds that -- if one loses SOFA rights -- that person has to be removed from Japan expeditiously at the expense of the US government at the request of the Japanese. You aren't automatically empowered with the right to meander about and ask for a visa. If you separate from the military on island and they don't dislike you you, sure they can let you have a visa. But they can also make you go away at cost to the US ASAP.

A while back before getting out of the military, instead of believing this hearsay, I looked into it myself. I went down to immigration to ask them straight up what I had to do. They said there is a 60 day window in which you have to secure a visa or leave Japan and come back. No where does it say you have to go back to your own country. On day 59 after SOFA I flew to Taiwan, had a vacation and came back here on a 90 day tourist visa. Don't ask me why, but somehow I don't think what you just posted here is 100% correct.

[RODSCALIP5]

Where is the national security crisis in this? If the PM of Japan called for the heads of 50 service members and their families would it be ok to proceed with that as well? Just for the sake of national security?

There is truth in this phrase: Those who are willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/okinawa.htm

You liberty is not being taken, your just spoiled.......................

[DougP]

Because the portion you forgot to quote states that the blah blah blah about federal jurisdiction this and constitution that does NOT preempt any international treaties. Read the whole thing.

And the SOFA agreement says we are under the laws of Japan.

I'm happy you've gone back and actually started reading it. Now all you have to do is read the SOFA between the US and Japan. In it you might find that there is no abolishment of constitutional rights or any amnesty from US and federal laws for US personnel covered under the SOFA.

[trianglechoke]

Where is the national security crisis in this?

The last time we had one of these, close to half the legislative body of Japan wanted us out. A close call.

Under SOFA, once they ask us to leave, it's game over.

Many forces not friendly to the US would love for that to happen. Particularly ones which are threatened by Kadena.

And we know there is evidence of "interested parties" trying to inflame this situation.

[trianglechoke]

It's in the text of SOFA.

A while back before getting out of the military, instead of believing this hearsay, I looked into it myself. I went down to immigration to ask them straight up what I had to do. They said there is a 60 day window in which you have to secure a visa or leave Japan and come back. No where does it say you have to go back to your own country. On day 59 after SOFA I flew to Taiwan, had a vacation and came back here on a 90 day tourist visa. Don't ask me why, but somehow I don't think what you just posted here is 100% correct.

[DougP]

The last time we had one of these, close to half the legislative body of Japan wanted us out. A close call.

Under SOFA, once they ask us to leave, it's game over.

Many forces not friendly to the US would love for that to happen. Particularly ones which are threatened by Kadena.

And we know there is evidence of "interested parties" trying to inflame this situation.

And the same was said about the Philippines. I've been there quite a few times since the reversion. China has not quite taken over it yet.

[RODSCALIP5]

Off-Topic: My wife is Canadian, but is here under SOFA. I wonder if anyone would say anything if she just flashed her Canadian passport?

[RODSCALIP5]

And the same was said about the Philippines. I've been there quite a few times since the reversion. China has not quite taken over it yet.

No, but there are plenty of Muslim extremist putting up a fight.

[trianglechoke]

There does not need to be.

The Constitution does not apply to other countries.

Nor does the Constitution entitle you to do whatever you want and keep your SOFA status.

I'm happy you've gone back and actually started reading it. Now all you have to do is read the SOFA between the US and Japan. In it you might find that there is no abolishment of constitutional rights or any amnesty from US and federal laws for US personnel covered under the SOFA.

[trianglechoke]

Wow, so not only are you a master of international law who apparently has subsumed the whole of the planet under US territorial jurisdiction with just a few quotes and a bunch of these :thumbup: :thumbup: things (they should really hire you...) but you can also predict the will and intent of foreign powers. Wow, a spy, a diplomat, and a law professor! You should run for president after you lose your SOFA and get sent home. Assuming you're not cowering at home under the general's scary order.
:thumbup:


And the same was said about the Philippines. I've been there quite a few times since the reversion. China has not quite taken over it yet.

[DougP]

It's in the text of SOFA.

Not exactly

5. If the status of any person brought into Japan under paragraph of this Article is altered so that he would no longer be entitled to such admission, the United States authorities shall notify the Japanese authorities and shall, if such person be required by the Japanese authorities to leave Japan, assure that transportation from Japan will be provided within a reasonable time at no cost to the Government of Japan.

6. If the Government of Japan has requested the removal from its territory of a member of the United States armed forces or civilian component or has made an expulsion order against an ox-member of the United States armed forces or the civilian component or against a dependent of a member or ex-member, the authorities of the United States shall be responsible for receiving the person concerned within its own territory or otherwise disposing of him outside Jam. This paragraph shall apply only to persons who are not nationals of Japan and have entered Japan as members of the United States armed forces or civilian component or for the purpose of becoming such members, and to the dependents of such persons.

That if part was kind of hiding in there wasn't it. So that means that if Japan does not require you to leave right away then that 60 day window applies... like it did for me.:)

[DougP]

No, but there are plenty of Muslim extremist putting up a fight.

They were there long before the US ever took control of that place.

[Mad Hatter]

That's not cool man. Why we have to go about this debate in a childish manner?

trianglechoke: "Wow, so not only are you a master of international law who apparently has subsumed the whole of the planet under US territorial jurisdiction with just a few quotes and a bunch of these things (they should really hire you...) but you can also predict the will and intent of foreign powers. Wow, a spy, a diplomat, and a law professor! You should run for president after you lose your SOFA and get sent home. Assuming you're not cowering at home under the general's scary order."

[whatthe...!!]

Not to mention if your married to a local Japanese authorities are not going to tell you to leave

[DougP]

There does not need to be.

The Constitution does not apply to other countries.

Nor does the Constitution entitle you to do whatever you want and keep your SOFA status.

Again I have shown proof that the constitution does apply to us and you still cling to the same old line that has no real backing. The point you may be missing is that the US constitution does not apply to other nation's citizens.

Granted the constitution doesn't protect my SOFA status but it, federal lwa(which still apllies to us) and the UCMJ protect me from being ordered to do something that is in violation of my constitutional rights. It is a vicious circle indeed. That constitution managed to secure a place in just about everything attached to read white and blue.

And since no one can answer the question about the freedom of religion perhaps someone could answer this.

If the constitution no longer applies to us because of where we are then are the members of the armed forces still required to uphold and protect it? What does that part "uphold" really mean anyways?

[Mad Hatter]

Just a What IF here:

You are in the military, married to a Japanese young lady, break the lockdown, get a court marshal or NJP that results in your Bad Conduct Discharge for the service. You then try to apply for the VISA within the 60 days, and they tell you NO. They tell you no, because you have already caused trouble in your life...

What then?

[trianglechoke]

Which is exactly why my original message said "if they liked you" and gave an example of a person separating from the military on island, and contrasted it with someone they wanted gone.


Not exactly



That if part was kind of hiding in there wasn't it. So that means that if Japan does not require you to leave right away then that 60 day window applies... like it did for me.:)

[DougP]

Wow, so not only are you a master of international law who apparently has subsumed the whole of the planet under US territorial jurisdiction with just a few quotes and a bunch of these :thumbup: :thumbup: things (they should really hire you...) but you can also predict the will and intent of foreign powers. Wow, a spy, a diplomat, and a law professor! You should run for president after you lose your SOFA and get sent home. Assuming you're not cowering at home under the general's scary order.
:thumbup:

Well at least I do have a few written laws out there and a bill of rights to back me up in what I'm saying. What do you have?

[Mad Hatter]

Let's say that your right here Doug, how are you goin to fight this? You know that you are not going to win. Do think that SJA is going to stand up for you? Maybe you pay a local lawyer to help you, against the U.S. Government? Just to go to out in town.

Dude, you know I'll help you any way that I can. Do you want me to bring you something from off base?

[RODSCALIP5]

If you guys are really serious about this, maybe you guys need to get together(all of you) and have a little get together with Condi when she comes to OKi. Don't talk about it, be about it.

[trianglechoke]

No, you have quoted a section out of us criminal code that defines jurisdiction of us criminal code. It doesn't work that way -- random bits flung together do not make a master legal thesis. it does not expand the constitution to foreign soil leased by the military.

even if it did, the constitution does not protect your right to go ANYWHERE.

and even if it did, it would NOT apply off base.


Again I have shown proof that the constitution does apply to us and you still cling to the same old line that has no real backing. The point you may be missing is that the US constitution does not apply to other nation's citizens.

Granted the constitution doesn't protect my SOFA status but it, federal lwa(which still apllies to us) and the UCMJ protect me from being ordered to do something that is in violation of my constitutional rights. It is a vicious circle indeed. That constitution managed to secure a place in just about everything attached to read white and blue.

And since no one can answer the question about the freedom of religion perhaps someone could answer this.

If the constitution no longer applies to us because of where we are then are the members of the armed forces still required to uphold and protect it? What does that part "uphold" really mean anyways?

[RODSCALIP5]

Exactly, you can move freely on U.S. Territory(On Base)/Off Base housing, but as soon as you hit that gate your under Japanese Law and that's where SOFA kicks in, not the Constitution.

[trianglechoke]

Again, you are quoting disparate things on the same page. That does not link them together via some mysterious transitive process.

Janice likes cats.
Cats defecate a lot.
Therefor Janice likes feces!

Until you find something that says in unambiguous terms that:
1) deprivation of SOFA is a violation of the constitution
2) the constitution is enforced in Japan on base or off

then it's all just hypothetical layperson legal theory.

Well at least I do have a few written laws out there and a bill of rights to back me up in what I'm saying. What do you have?

[DougP]

Let's say that your right here Doug, how are you goin to fight this? You know that you are not going to win. Do think that SJA is going to stand up for you? Maybe you pay a local lawyer to help you, against the U.S. Government? Just to go to out in town.

Dude, you know I'll help you any way that I can. Do you want me to bring you something from off base?

Lets just say that there are many that are very concerned with this issue. Not just here but back in the states and other places as well. Its not about winning right now its about exposure. If nobody takes notice to what is going on around them or far away the issue will never be approached and ultimately never dealt with. I know this current situation is a lost cause. No telling how long it will last and that doesn't matter. The gantlet was throne and it has been responded to.

The point is to have this thing reviewed looked into as far as to what recourses people may have and what steps may be needed to ensure that what happens next time is completely legal and not in violation of anything.
Let's just say this has sparked a lot of interest and some new eyes are watching.:thumbup1:

[Craig_Sunabe]

Off-Topic: My wife is Canadian, but is here under SOFA. I wonder if anyone would say anything if she just flashed her Canadian passport?


I think anyone that knew what they were doing would look for the visa stamp.
It's usually a white sticker for tourist visas.

Of course, if she is in Okinawa as a dependant... she probably has some type of stamp from the base instead of a visa.

[DougP]

Again, you are quoting disparate things on the same page. That does not link them together via some mysterious transitive process.

Janice likes cats.
Cats defecate a lot.
Therefor Janice likes feces!

Until you find something that says in unambiguous terms that:
1) deprivation of SOFA is a violation of the constitution
2) the constitution is enforced in Japan on base or off

then it's all just hypothetical layperson legal theory.

Actually you're off quite a bit if thats what you have interpreted thus far. I will attempt to set this conversation back on course.

1.) the threatening of the loss of SOFA due to the in ability to adhere to the area commander is coercion.

2.) An order that is in violation of the constitution is an illegitimate order and therefore unlawful. For instance, the commander cannot tell you that you will now practice Judaism can he? Why is that?

Still nothing from the "prime directive" crowd stating that we no longer have constitutional rights. Rights stated in the constitution that service members have sworn to protect and uphold.

[Craig_Sunabe]

I think anyone that knew what they were doing would look for the visa stamp.
It's usually a white sticker for tourist visas.

Of course, if she is in Okinawa as a dependant... she probably has some type of stamp from the base instead of a visa.


Wait... does she have 2 passports?
If the canadian one has no visa, and no SOFA related stamp, I have no idea what they would do.

[badstreetusa]

If she's here under SOFA then she needs to follow the order, period.

[RODSCALIP5]

Wait... does she have 2 passports?
If the canadian one has no visa, and no SOFA related stamp, I have no idea what they would do.

No, only one, the Canadian one with SOFA stamp :(. I would assume she would be arrested or deported if there was no stamp on the passport.

[RODSCALIP5]

If she's here under SOFA then she needs to follow the order, period.

LOL! Yes, I know that. Her and I don't see anything wrong with this "lockdown", it gives us more time to save and then put it all back into the economy when it's over.

[Jack Baretz]

No, only one, the Canadian one with SOFA stamp :(. I would assume she would be arrested or deported if there was no stamp on the passport.

Send her to Korea on a vacation and tell her to come back as a tourist. I believe they will give her 90 days. By that time, this will be over and she can just say she was confused. Is she blonde?

[RODSCALIP5]

Send her to Korea on a vacation and tell her to come back as a tourist. I believe they will give her 90 days. By that time, this will be over and she can just say she was confused. Is she blonde?

ROFL.............No she's not blonde........LOL!

[DougP]

Exactly, you can move freely on U.S. Territory(On Base)/Off Base housing, but as soon as you hit that gate your under Japanese Law and that's where SOFA kicks in, not the Constitution.

I'll get back to the issue of the reach of the constitution and the connection between law and geography but first let me ask you this.

The SOFA does not cover anything about the rights of US citizens. So what happened to those rights? How is it we still have some and not the others?

[trianglechoke]

1) Threatening you with prison if you import crack is coercion.
2) The US constitution clearly has a no coercion clause.
3) The Japanese are under the jurisdiction of the US constitution.
4) Therefor japanese customs laws are unconstitutional. I demand action!

The constitution does not protect you from losing your SOFA status!

SOFA status can be revoked for any reason.

If you do not like the boundaries imposed by SOFA status, then leave. Go to a place where the constitution actually does apply, and maybe work on getting a new item added to the bill of rights (a do whatever i want nobody can coerce me clause.)

Actually you're off quite a bit if thats what you have interpreted thus far. I will attempt to set this conversation back on course.

1.) the threatening of the loss of SOFA due to the in ability to adhere to the area commander is coercion.

2.) An order that is in violation of the constitution is an illegitimate order and therefore unlawful. For instance, the commander cannot tell you that you will now practice Judaism can he? Why is that?

Still nothing from the "prime directive" crowd stating that we no longer have constitutional rights. Rights stated in the constitution that service members have sworn to protect and uphold.

[KumaNoPooh]

I know i still have money to spend because I don't buy Fast food on base anymore. Saving money to give back to hank and others on the out in town.. Hahaha Adolf Zilmer I foiled your evil plan (Embargo)

[Hawk1142]

1) Threatening you with prison if you import crack is coercion.
2) The US constitution clearly has a no coercion clause.
3) The Japanese are under the jurisdiction of the US constitution.
4) Therefor japanese customs laws are unconstitutional. I demand action!

The constitution does not protect you from losing your SOFA status!

SOFA status can be revoked for any reason.

If you do not like the boundaries imposed by SOFA status, then leave. Go to a place where the constitution actually does apply, and maybe work on getting a new item added to the bill of rights (a do whatever i want nobody can coerce me clause.)

So, your point is military members have no constitutional rights because they are in Japan.....

[KumaNoPooh]

So if he asked for our first born next time we have a lockdown we give it to him because he made a general order stating such or we lose our SOFA.

[DougP]

Consider the following: people under the SOFA fall in under UCMJ as well and it states in the UCMJ that a commander cannot make an order that is in violation of the constitution. Seeing how that is set in stone how is it we can still have our constitutional rights violated?

[trianglechoke]

Your rights evaporate once you leave the US. That's why people try to sneak in. They don't stand there in Mexico city and demand their US constitutional rights.

You only get what the local government gives you plus anything extra added by SOFA.

Having SOFA is not like being a beached whale -- once you wash up on shore they can't move you. They can de-SOFA you for any reason, at any time.

I'll get back to the issue of the reach of the constitution and the connection between law and geography but first let me ask you this.

The SOFA does not cover anything about the rights of US citizens. So what happened to those rights? How is it we still have some and not the others?

[RODSCALIP5]

I'll get back to the issue of the reach of the constitution and the connection between law and geography but first let me ask you this.

The SOFA does not cover anything about the rights of US citizens. So what happened to those rights? How is it we still have some and not the others?

You don't have any rights under the U.S. Constitution in other countries unless you are on U.S. territory. Your in another country until you get on base(U.S. Territory) or your Off Base Residence.

[KumaNoPooh]

So basicly the good gerneral has Carte blanche when it come to our lives when he feels it would be right for good order on his bases. Pretty soon we all have to start paying SOFA tax to the King

[RODSCALIP5]

So, your point is military members have no constitutional rights because they are in Japan.....

They have no constitutional rights when they walk through that gate................but SOFA is there to protect them.

[trianglechoke]

To some degree, that is correct. In fact, that applies in many ways to military members in the CONUS as well. People talk about the Constitution like its some edict from God and he'll show up and help you if someone breaks the rules. It's not like that.

So, your point is military members have no constitutional rights because they are in Japan.....

[Hawk1142]

They have no constitutional rights when they walk through that gate................but SOFA is there to protect them.

What does the gate have to do with it?

The Japanese are not the ones who gave the order....

[RODSCALIP5]

So basicly the good gerneral has Carte blanche when it come to our lives when he feels it would be right for good order on his bases. Pretty soon we all have to start paying SOFA tax to the King

How many times will this be said before you guys get it.......................................THE GENERAL DID NOT JUST DECIDE "HEY LET'S LOCK DOWN THIS MF DOWN"

There are politicians behind this lockdown, the General is just following their "guidance"

[Hawk1142]

Sofa has to do with are relationship with the Japanese, not what orders come down from the chain of command....

[DougP]

1) Threatening you with prison if you import crack is coercion.
2) The US constitution clearly has a no coercion clause.
3) The Japanese are under the jurisdiction of the US constitution.
4) Therefor japanese customs laws are unconstitutional. I demand action!

The constitution does not protect you from losing your SOFA status!

SOFA status can be revoked for any reason.

If you do not like the boundaries imposed by SOFA status, then leave. Go to a place where the constitution actually does apply, and maybe work on getting a new item added to the bill of rights (a do whatever i want nobody can coerce me clause.)

Sigh again missing the point. This is really getting tiring but I'll give it one more go.

Ok never said losing your SOFA status was in violation of the constitution. Just that threatening to remove it with out just cause was coercion. I understand your prejudice may prevent you form having a more open outlook on this but try not to confuse what I am saying here. I sort of causes this conversation to reset and start over every time I have reiterate what I've said before. I'm sure its all still there if you need to go back and check.

Also never said anything about the constitution of the US ruling over Japan, although I do find it funny that the military seems to think they can exercise authority of Japanese locals who are dependents of SOFA personnel. Especially when it says they cannot.

Reread some of those laws, regulations, do some digging for yourself to aid you in providing a convincing argument. It would be nice to know how my rights suddenly disappeared without anything legally binding to back that up. If it is in the SOFA, international law, federal law, heck even in some old SNES video game manual then I'll stop moving forward. This can be quite tiring fighting the current you know.

[RODSCALIP5]

What does the gate have to do with it?

The Japanese are not the ones who gave the order....

You asked if military members where not covered under the constitution, I answered they were covered until they walk out the gate.

[Steganos]

Just want to touch up some stuff about constitutional violations. It appears that there are many of you out there that may not be aware of what actual rights you have. I urge any and all of you that may have doubts about the legitimacy of this order to do a bit of research. Why, because it benefits you.

The Constitution allows criminal prosecution under federal laws on state territory only for treason, counterfeiting, crimes on the high seas, crimes against the law of nations, or violations of civil rights by officials.

Oh wait so that means none of this applies to us over here? Wrong, it does.
Federal criminal laws also apply acts committed on federal territory, including land ceded to the federal government by a state legislature, coastal waters, U.S. flag vessels on the high seas, and the grounds of U.S. embassies (consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States abroad).

Which if you've been following the circle clearly paints a road that leads to: violations of civil rights by officials and depriving citizens of their rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S. is against federal law. Which does apply to us, military from grunts to commanders and the civilians.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/05/iraq8547_txt.htm
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000007----000-.html
YOU ONLY HAVE ONE RIGHT!, The Right to OBEY your Superiors!!

[trianglechoke]

Not quite, but sortof.

Remember, the military evolved from an entity where disobeying a direct order from an officer could get you very dead in a short period of time. Article 15 and such is a much kindler, gentler military than the past.

The military cannot function if someone with three freaking stars can't expect people to obey a lockdown because they have a tantrum. God forbid our country would ever face a real threat with this kind of "discaprine."

Individuals unwilling to operate in this environment should go home.

So basicly the good gerneral has Carte blanche when it come to our lives when he feels it would be right for good order on his bases. Pretty soon we all have to start paying SOFA tax to the King

[DougP]

Your rights evaporate once you leave the US. That's why people try to sneak in. They don't stand there in Mexico city and demand their US constitutional rights.

You only get what the local government gives you plus anything extra added by SOFA.

Having SOFA is not like being a beached whale -- once you wash up on shore they can't move you. They can de-SOFA you for any reason, at any time.

Really, You might want to consider backing this stuff up with something. You don't expect me to go out and validate it with something substantial so I can buy into it do you?

[KumaNoPooh]

Its funny how me being self sponsored Sofa, if I get in trouble out in town and end up in jail and the Military or for that fact the U.S. government could care less and let me rott there. But when I need to follow some crack-pot General and his Master of the Universe power trip, I'm held accountable and could lose my SOFA status, because I now matter. I really think he needs hug and I hope I find General Dick Zilmer so I can give it to him

[DougP]

You asked if military members where not covered under the constitution, I answered they were covered until they walk out the gate.

And this came out of thin air too, Sorry Hawk I guess we've been punk'd on this one.:first:

[RODSCALIP5]

Its funny how me being self sponsored Sofa, if I get in trouble out in town and end up in jail and the Military or for that fact the U.S. government could care less and let me rott there. But when I need to follow some crack-pot General and his Master of the Universe power trip, I'm held accountable and could lose my SOFA status because know I matter. I really think he needs hug and I hope I find General Dick Zilmer so I can give it to him


You might want to chat with the Ambassador, who is probably the one who suggested such action............................

Like I said, you guys have a right to ask questions and approach Condi.......all this bitching and complaining on the web won't do much. Man up and rally to meet with Condi.

[RODSCALIP5]

And this came out of thin air too, Sorry Hawk I guess we've been punk'd on this one.:first:

Explain how it's "coming out of thin air"?

[Hawk1142]

Not quite, but sortof.

Remember, the military evolved from an entity where disobeying a direct order from an officer could get you very dead in a short period of time. Article 15 and such is a much kindler, gentler military than the past.

The military cannot function if someone with three freaking stars can't expect people to obey a lockdown because they have a tantrum. God forbid our country would ever face a real threat with this kind of "discaprine."

Individuals unwilling to operate in this environment should go home.

What do you base this theory of a real threat your many deploymants to Korea, and Thailand.

Go to Iraq, I just came back....

[trianglechoke]

It would be nice to know how my rights suddenly disappeared without anything legally binding to back that up. If it is in the SOFA, international law, federal law, heck even in some old SNES video game manual then I'll stop moving forward. This can be quite tiring fighting the current you know.

It's very simple. Your rights are not like your nose. You are not born with it stuck to your face unless someone bites it off.

They only exist where a power that is willing to enforce them -- and has the capability of doing so -- says they exist.

I do not need to prove that you lose your US constitutional rights when you are not in the US. (as obvious as that should be)

You DO need to prove that said rights are enforced HERE. (with something better than special maritime jurisdiction of us criminal code -- LMAO)

(AND you need to somehow explain how that prevents the general from doing what he did.)

Good luck with that. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[DougP]

Explain how it's "coming out of thin air"?

I don't see where else it could be coming from. :rolleyes:

[Jack Baretz]

I'll get back to the issue of the reach of the constitution and the connection between law and geography but first let me ask you this.

The SOFA does not cover anything about the rights of US citizens. So what happened to those rights? How is it we still have some and not the others?

SOFA just defines civil and criminal jurisdiction of U.S. personnel in Japan. This is why Tyrone is in a Japanese jail rather than in a brig. It doesn't have anything to do with the U.S. Constitution or civil rights. Civilians have to follow the orders of military officials overseas, when they apply to us, or risk administrative sanctions like revocation of base priveledges. Thats just the way it is. The real question is whether we are entitled to get paid. This is where the legal issues come up. Had the CG told us to stay home and be in a state of readiness due to a security threat, then no problem: money in the bank. Or, had the lockdown order lasted only a few days, then no problem, we just suck it up. The problem is that there appears no end in sight and a "period of reflection" just doesn't cut it anymore.

[Hawk1142]

It's very simple. Your rights are not like your nose. You are not born with it stuck to your face unless someone bites it off.

They only exist where a power that is willing to enforce them -- and has the capability of doing so -- says they exist.

I do not need to prove that you lose your US constitutional rights when you are not in the US. (as obvious as that should be)

You DO need to prove that said rights are enforced HERE. (with something better than special maritime jurisdiction of us criminal code -- LMAO)

(AND you need to somehow explain how that prevents the general from doing what he did.)

Good luck with that. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:




I will tell you how our constitutional rights still apply, every time a Marine gets mad at some SNCO and wrights his congressman, there is what you call an investigation. Their would not be an investigation if said Marine had NO RIGHTS!

[trianglechoke]

Huh? someone has issues.... Iraq? My deployments to Korea and Thailand? What are you talking about?

Your comment is barely relevant.

What do you base this theory of a real threat your many deploymants to Korea, and Thailand.

Go to Iraq, I just came back....

[DougP]

It's very simple. Your rights are not like your nose. You are not born with it stuck to your face unless someone bites it off.

They only exist where a power that is willing to enforce them -- and has the capability of doing so -- says they exist.

I do not need to prove that you lose your US constitutional rights when you are not in the US. (as obvious as that should be)

You DO need to prove that said rights are enforced HERE. (with something better than special maritime jurisdiction of us criminal code -- LMAO)

(AND you need to somehow explain how that prevents the general from doing what he did.)

Good luck with that. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Right so now we have to prove that we have rights...

That's the retort. You do not need to prove that we lose our constitutional rights but I have to prove that I have them, especially while we are working with our government. Most importantly working around with the military who are sworn to protect and uphold the constitution. American citizens ARE born with the inherent rights the constitution provides. Just as non US citizens gain them upon receiving citizenship.

Normally I would say that this sort of conversation is a "your word vs. mine" but you have yet to back your claims with anything. Kind of hard to contradict the hard facts in writing with nothing isn't it?

[RODSCALIP5]

I don't see where else it could be coming from. :rolleyes:

It's coming from common sense.................you can't just take the Constitution and expect a sovereign nation to abide by it.

I might be wrong, I don't know.

What I really want to know is are all of you going to rally up and meet with Condi? You want results, do something that will get noticed.

[trianglechoke]

Uh... OK then.

That's nice, but the Constitution does not actually say "angry marines shall wright [sic] their congressmen to complain about their SNCOs and lo, there shall be such a thing as an investigation!"

People really blow the constitution way beyond what it actually does/is.

I will tell you how our constitutional rights still apply, every time a Marine gets mad at some SNCO and wrights his congressman, there is what you call an investigation. Their would not be an investigation if said Marine had NO RIGHTS!

[Steganos]

I think you all are a bunch of loosers, I think the only reason you are all here is because you could not make it in the US. And as DOD School Teachers is concerned, most are here because they are either hidding from crap they did in the US, They could not get a decent teaching job in the US school system, They screwed up real bad in some school in the US and the School district director talked to their budy inside the DOD School system to give you guys a job here and stay quiet to avoid an embarrassment to their district. Anyone who think this is not true raise your hand!!

[DougP]

It's coming from common sense.................you can't just take the Constitution and expect a sovereign nation to abide by it.

I might be wrong, I don't know.

What I really want to know is are all of you going to rally up and meet with Condi? You want results, do something that will get noticed.

You would be right not to expect another sovereign nation to abide by our constitution. Never said they have to. But we are still being governed by our own officials and military and they are obliged to follow the constitution are they not?

Also I work for a US company that has to adhere to federal law. So does that mean I do not because I am over here?

[Jack Baretz]

I think you all are a bunch of loosers, I think the only reason you are all here is because you could not make it in the US. And as DOD School Teachers is concerned, most are here because they are either hidding from crap they did in the US, They could not get a decent teaching job in the US school system, They screwed up real bad in some school in the US and the School district director talked to their budy inside the DOD School system to give you guys a job here and stay quiet to avoid an embarrassment to their district. Anyone who think this is not true raise your hand!!

You're on! Meet me at Starbucks tomorrow at 1900.

[DougP]

I think you all are a bunch of loosers, I think the only reason you are all here is because you could not make it in the US. And as DOD School Teachers is concerned, most are here because they are either hidding from crap they did in the US, They could not get a decent teaching job in the US school system, They screwed up real bad in some school in the US and the School district director talked to their budy inside the DOD School system to give you guys a job here and stay quiet to avoid an embarrassment to their district. Anyone who think this is not true raise your hand!!

You paint with a fairly broad brush. Making sweeping generalizations are we now?

[trianglechoke]

Oh, the pabulum!

Hard facts in writing?! :thumbup:

Sorry, I cannot find a specific quote that says "the united states does not have legal jurisdiction in other countries."

Possibly nobody ever thought this would be an issue of confusion.

The constitution limits what states and federal agencies can do when you're in their jurisdiction. It delegates some powers to the fed, sets some limits, and leaves everything else up to the states.

it doesn't imbue you with mystical powers and rights.....


Right so now we have to prove that we have rights...

That's the retort. You do not need to prove that we lose our constitutional rights but I have to prove that I have them, especially while we are working with our government. Most importantly working around with the military who are sworn to protect and uphold the constitution. American citizens ARE born with the inherent rights the constitution provides. Just as non US citizens gain them upon receiving citizenship.

Normally I would say that this sort of conversation is a "your word vs. mine" but you have yet to back your claims with anything. Kind of hard to contradict the hard facts in writing with nothing isn't it?

[RODSCALIP5]

You would be right not to expect another sovereign nation to abide by our constitution. Never said they have to. But we are still being governed by our own officials and military and they are obliged to follow the constitution are they not?

Also I work for a US company that has to adhere to federal law. So does that mean I do not because I am over here?

Yes you are being governed by officials/military who have not denied you the right to move freely on base(U.S. Territory/Bills of Rights/Constitution), but have denied you the right to move freely off base(foreign country) either for your own safety or National Interest. You should be happy we havent been forced to move on base.

Are you going to answer my second question?

P.S. Ill pick this up in the morning it's almost midnight :old:

[Steganos]

Holy frigging chinese poisoned gyoza!!, after reading all the post it seems that all of you have turned into a horde a babbling lawyers, I should sue all of your sorry existences for practizing law without being licensed.

[trianglechoke]

Also I work for a US company that has to adhere to federal law. So does that mean I do not because I am over here?

Good question. NO. Refer to the recent steroids in sports nonsense.

Player goes to foreign country were roids are not illegal and juices/trains there.

Is he subject to US Federal law while on his Latin American roid fest?

No.

Can his team fire him for what they consider to be improper behavior?

Yes.

[DougP]

Oh, the pabulum!

Hard facts in writing?! :thumbup:

Sorry, I cannot find a specific quote that says "the united states does not have legal jurisdiction in other countries."

Possibly nobody ever thought this would be an issue of confusion.

The constitution limits what states and federal agencies can do when you're in their jurisdiction. It delegates some powers to the fed, sets some limits, and leaves everything else up to the states.

it doesn't imbue you with mystical powers and rights.....

Using your logic that the constitution stays within the boundaries of the US then the oath to protect and uphold it by service members become null and void once they step foot outside the US. Hard to protect something that isn't there anymore.

[DougP]

Good question. NO. Refer to the recent steroids in sports nonsense.

Player goes to foreign country were roids are not illegal and juices/trains there.

Is he subject to US Federal law while on his Latin American roid fest?

No.

Can his team fire him for what they consider to be improper behavior?

Yes.

I stated before where federal law applies... So if he is not in one of those areas then I say go for it:D But you might remember that military bases abroad are in fact covered.

[DougP]

Let me just change gears here and get the focus and attention of us for a second.

Is the CG still required to abide by the laws of the United states and the Constitution?

[Steganos]

Let me just change gears here and get the focus and attention of us for a second.

Is the CG still required to abide by the laws of the United states and the Constitution?
No, he is not, remember? he is the master of the universe, he makes the law>

[trianglechoke]

That makes no sense. Swearing to protect the Constitution does not prevent one from going overseas to be poised to destroy those who would threaten it. (not that we ever do that, but that's another debate entirely.)

Using your logic that the constitution stays within the boundaries of the US then the oath to protect and uphold it by service members become null and void once they step foot outside the US. Hard to protect something that isn't there anymore.

[trianglechoke]

I stated before where federal law applies... So if he is not in one of those areas then I say go for it:D But you might remember that military bases abroad are in fact covered.

By criminal code.

[DougP]

Ok here's another one. Up for grabs:D

Lets say I'm full of it(think I have some of your attention now) and we have no rights, I mean none what so ever.

Lets say it came down from the Master of the Universe(thanks Steganos for the laugh) that anyone under SOFA was no longer afforded the privilege of attending religious ceremonies, no prayer, no religious artifacts.

Let's also say he was tired of Dodds and ordered that no dependent shall attend school and all education functions will cease.

What would be your options? What would you do?

[Steganos]

By criminal code.
Are acusing the General of commiting a criminal act?

[DougP]

By criminal code.

remember that willfully depriving or causing to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S. is covered under that code. You really can't have it one way without the other. The fact that the US is over here alone should tell you that US law still applies. And what does US law say about the constitution?

[trianglechoke]

He is bound by some things, but not all. UCMJ, various articles of war, etc.

if he were bound like some corporation or something, we wouldnt be able to kill people and blow stuff up. That is what the military does.

Let me just change gears here and get the focus and attention of us for a second.

Is the CG still required to abide by the laws of the United states and the Constitution?

[Steganos]

Ok here's another one. Up for grabs:D

Lets say I'm full of it(think I have some of your attention now) and we have no rights, I mean none what so ever.

Lets say it came down from the Master of the Universe(thanks Steganos for the laugh) that anyone under SOFA was no longer afforded the privilege of attending religious ceremonies, no prayer, no religious artifacts.

Let's also say he was tired of Dodds and ordered that no dependent shall attend school and all education functions will cease.

What would be your options? What would you do?
Holy flipping goya, I think I would start looking for another place to live. I don't think I could live with my religious ceremonies, and what an horror! to have my kids attent school with the local boys!, no way, they roll up their skirts!!.

[DougP]

He is bound by some things, but not all. UCMJ, various articles of war, etc.

if he were bound like some corporation or something, we wouldnt be able to kill people and blow stuff up. That is what the military does.

So if the UCMJ states that no order shall be made that is in violation of the constitution then.........

[trianglechoke]

No I am accusing you of poor reading skills. Were you taught by DoDS? :army:

The debate earlier was whether military bases leased on foreign soil are federal territories and which US laws applied there.

I think the lockdown is perfectly legal. Just annoying. And honestly, I think it should be viewed less as a punishment of us and more of a punishment of the local community for going berserko over these trumped up charges.

Are acusing the General of commiting a criminal act?

[Steganos]

No I am accusing you of poor reading skills. Were you taught by DoDS? :army:

The debate earlier was whether military bases leased on foreign soil are federal territories and which US laws applied there.

I think the lockdown is perfectly legal. Just annoying. And honestly, I think it should be viewed less as a punishment of us and more of a punishment of the local community for going berserko over these trumped up charges.
Ok, I think I found the reason of why the lockdown happened. "Self control is the key to self-respect. If one does not control one's self, some control will be provided from the outside. Such an outside source is where both laws and customs originate" - Abraham J. Herschel.

See? the General is that outside source., so stop whinning!!

[Steganos]

No I am accusing you of poor reading skills. Were you taught by DoDS? :army:

The debate earlier was whether military bases leased on foreign soil are federal territories and which US laws applied there.

I think the lockdown is perfectly legal. Just annoying. And honestly, I think it should be viewed less as a punishment of us and more of a punishment of the local community for going berserko over these trumped up charges.
So, you do admit that DODS is a mockery and an insult to education.

[DougP]

Well one last thing for you guys to ponder, I'm about to hit the rack.

This is for the "we have no rights" group

Why are you trying so hard to prove that we have no rights? I haven't even started on the NATO and international humans rights laws yet, that of course the US has signed onto and agreed to. I mean is it that ideal for you for everyone hear under the red white and blue to be without any rights at all, bet it basic human rights, civil rights, or constitutional rights?

Why does someone taking a stance FOR human rights and constitutional rights seem so threatening? When did going out in town and exercising free commerce become illegal? When did the American spirit filled with fight for freedom and born of revolution turn into the roll over lap dog mindset.

There are plenty of Places where human rights or rights of any kind do not exist.

I hope no body is saying we live in one of those states. I know its been cold outside lately but last time I checked I wasn't in the Eastern Block.

[trianglechoke]

The constitution and the laws of the US do not provide you with an inalienable right to move about Japan without risking SOFA status.

remember that willfully depriving or causing to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S. is covered under that code. You really can't have it one way without the other. The fact that the US is over here alone should tell you that US law still applies. And what does US law say about the constitution?

[trianglechoke]

When did going out in town and exercising free commerce become illegal?

Um. Never. But he can still take your SOFA status.

It's part of the deal. You get SOFA. You play by their rules.

If you don't like their rules, give up SOFA, and go, or get a visa.

SOFA is not an entitlement. It's a privilege set up for the sole purpose of furthering and supporting the interests of the US military and our defense agreement with Japan.

When you become incompatible with that intent, whether you agree or not, they have the right to revoke SOFA.

[trianglechoke]

Admit it? Are you confusing me with someone else that defended DODS?

DoDS sucks.

So, you do admit that DODS is a mockery and an insult to education.

[ryukyuboi]

What is DoDS?

If your are referring to the on base school system operated by the Department of Defense, the correct acronym would be DoDDS - Department of Defense Dependent Schools.

[Ammoyankee]

I think you all are a bunch of loosers, I think the only reason you are all here is because you could not make it in the US. And as DOD School Teachers is concerned, most are here because they are either hidding from crap they did in the US, They could not get a decent teaching job in the US school system, They screwed up real bad in some school in the US and the School district director talked to their budy inside the DOD School system to give you guys a job here and stay quiet to avoid an embarrassment to their district. Anyone who think this is not true raise your hand!!

I think that is crap... After having my children in the public school system in Louisiana for two years, we were dying to get back over here and put them back in DODDS!

[elgringoloco]

Maybe what is needed is that old bugaboo, the bedcheck, for say, E-6 and below.

[Oki0619]

I think and I might be going out on a limb here with this crowd of bleeding hearts:rolleyes:, we should base your ability to be removed from lock down by a test. Perhaps using your ASVAB/SATS maybe 85QT 130GT and 1250 and you can walk freely about, anything below that requires a re-test fail it and you never leave base. Sh!t while we are at it we should institute this for people having children...... This would not infringe on your civil rights, because if you are not smart enough to pass the tests you would not know what civil rights are.:thumbup:

[DougP]

Um. Never. But he can still take your SOFA status.

It's part of the deal. You get SOFA. You play by their rules.

If you don't like their rules, give up SOFA, and go, or get a visa.

SOFA is not an entitlement. It's a privilege set up for the sole purpose of furthering and supporting the interests of the US military and our defense agreement with Japan.

When you become incompatible with that intent, whether you agree or not, they have the right to revoke SOFA.

This was never about the protection of SOFA or a right to SOFA. This is about issuing an order that is illegitimate. How can you lose SOFA over an illegitimate order? Not really sure how SOFA has become the center of discussion.

Its simple. A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it.

SOFA is not a right and can be taken away(we both agree on this part)
And yes in order to keep it we must play by their rules. Those in charge must also play by those rules and those rules clearly state that an order given cannot be contrary to the constitution. They are still bounded by that law regardless of where they are in the world or where their "subjects" are located.

[Oki0619]

Doug,
As much as it pains me the order he issued is a lawful order when it pertains to SOFA status personnel, (as long as they are not Japanese Nationals). The SOFA grants you the right to be in Japan without a VISA/Green card etc if you do something the General does not want you to do he can remove your SOFA. The Constitution of the United States does not give you the right to do anything outside of the United States, I pose this question to you would you rather have the General lock us down for a month or the Japanese Government lock us down forever? If this order was not lawful there would be some Anti government civil rights organization all over this by now. But continue to b!tch about the situation as it makes for interesting reading.:thumbup1:

[DougP]

Doug,
As much as it pains me the order he issued is a lawful order when it pertains to SOFA status personnel, (as long as they are not Japanese Nationals). The SOFA grants you the right to be in Japan without a VISA/Green card etc if you do something the General does not want you to do he can remove your SOFA. The Constitution of the United States does not give you the right to do anything outside of the United States, I pose this question to you would you rather have the General lock us down for a month or the Japanese Government lock us down forever? If this order was not lawful there would be some Anti government civil rights organization all over this by now. But continue to b!tch about the situation as it makes for interesting reading.:thumbup1:

Will do sir:thumbup1: To continue to bitch that is:D

The question you asked is not one that I cannot indulge in because it is a false dichotomy or false dilemma. I have been now presented with two options when there are obviously more than the two options you mentioned available. Instead of opting for one compromising situation over another I'm for option number 3. Fighting for the right to not be confined when I have not committed any crimes.:thumbup1:

Now this is an interesting situation no doubt. You mention that if this was an illegal/unlawful order that people would be all over the General's ass. But unfortunately things do not always work that way nor that quickly in the world today. There are organizations and company legal reps looking into it. If it is found that he was 100% in the right then so be it. But anything that remotely appears to be unlawful should be questioned. It should be looked into. I am more than pleased that it is being looked into right now.

Now looking back into the SOFA there's an interesting article.
2. (a) The military authorities of the United States shall have the right to exercise exclusive jurisdiction over persons subject to the military law of the United States with respect to offenses, including offenses relating to its security, punishable by the law of the United States, but not by the law of Japan

As I understand it the Military does have jurisdiction over us while outside the gates when we commit offenses relating to security, laws of the united states etc. As I understand it this doesn't necessarily mean that at anytime they can restrict us from free commerce outside of base, or prevent us from walking around off post. Especially when visiting family down the street.
It would appear that this would fall into the hands of the Japanese and so far they have not ordered us to be restricted. They do not have a law in effect barring us from shopping off base.

All in all, I'm sure it would be over soon. But the thought of this happening again and with even more restrictions being imposed upon us is almost as frightening as the diminishing sense of purpose people have towards protecting their own rights. This can spread like a cancer and when people no longer feel the need or have the desire to stand up for what they believe in. It is then that we have committed ourselves into a life of indentured service. Not the route I want to go as well.

[Muku]

As I understand it the Military does have jurisdiction over us while outside the gates when we commit offenses relating to security, laws of the united states etc.
Doug if those laws are also laws here in Japan as well the Japanese would have the first right of prosecution. But that doesnt have anything to do with this case now does it.

You keep on coming back to the issue of this order being illegal or not. That's your point correct?

The US Consititution does not cover you while you are in Japan, specifically off base. I think you know that.

Now then there are plenty of rights that are covered under the US Constitution that get dropped by the wayside the minute a person accepts employment as a member of the US Military. Would you agree with that?

Also you as a civilian component of the US Military, while having certain freedoms and rights that members of the US Military do not have are still required to follow the official orders of the military commanders placed over you. Is that correct as well? (Of course orders that are within reason as well.) Wait one done jump yet please about the validity of this order.

This is also covered under the SOFA as well correct?

If you as a member of the civilian component of the US Military here in Japan under sofa status feel or think that this order is illegal based upon the rights issues garunteed under the constitution of the US then what does that mean for the US Military?

Is this order, to you, also illegal for the men and women currently active duty here in Okinawa?

[RODSCALIP5]

Will do sir:thumbup1: To continue to bitch that is:D

The question you asked is not one that I cannot indulge in because it is a false dichotomy or false dilemma. I have been now presented with two options when there are obviously more than the two options you mentioned available. Instead of opting for one compromising situation over another I'm for option number 3. Fighting for the right to not be confined when I have not committed any crimes.:thumbup1:

Now this is an interesting situation no doubt. You mention that if this was an illegal/unlawful order that people would be all over the General's ass. But unfortunately things do not always work that way nor that quickly in the world today. There are organizations and company legal reps looking into it. If it is found that he was 100% in the right then so be it. But anything that remotely appears to be unlawful should be questioned. It should be looked into. I am more than pleased that it is being looked into right now.

Now looking back into the SOFA there's an interesting article.


As I understand it the Military does have jurisdiction over us while outside the gates when we commit offenses relating to security, laws of the united states etc. As I understand it this doesn't necessarily mean that at anytime they can restrict us from free commerce outside of base, or prevent us from walking around off post. Especially when visiting family down the street.
It would appear that this would fall into the hands of the Japanese and so far they have not ordered us to be restricted. They do not have a law in effect barring us from shopping off base.

All in all, I'm sure it would be over soon. But the thought of this happening again and with even more restrictions being imposed upon us is almost as frightening as the diminishing sense of purpose people have towards protecting their own rights. This can spread like a cancer and when people no longer feel the need or have the desire to stand up for what they believe in. It is then that we have committed ourselves into a life of indentured service. Not the route I want to go as well.

Here's the problem.......................no one is standing up. I've asked at least 3-4 different times woul dyou rally up with other people and go meet with Condi, yet there is no response from you. She is in Tokyo, why havent there been any rallys by contractors/Civs? Your counterparts in Korea have it worse on a day to day basis, curfew at 12 weekdays and 1 a.m. on weekends. Most likely these will be the new Hrs. on Okinawa.

[DougP]

Doug if those laws are also laws here in Japan as well the Japanese would have the first right of prosecution. But that doesnt have anything to do with this case now does it.

You keep on coming back to the issue of this order being illegal or not. That's your point correct?

The US Consititution does not cover you while you are in Japan, specifically off base. I think you know that.

Now then there are plenty of rights that are covered under the US Constitution that get dropped by the wayside the minute a person accepts employment as a member of the US Military. Would you agree with that?

Also you as a civilian component of the US Military, while having certain freedoms and rights that members of the US Military do not have are still required to follow the official orders of the military commanders placed over you. Is that correct as well? (Of course orders that are within reason as well.) Wait one done jump yet please about the validity of this order.

This is also covered under the SOFA as well correct?

If you as a member of the civilian component of the US Military here in Japan under sofa status feel or think that this order is illegal based upon the rights issues garunteed under the constitution of the US then what does that mean for the US Military?

Is this order, to you, also illegal for the men and women currently active duty here in Okinawa?

To me this order is illegal for all of those concerned for a few reasons which I have gone over. Also the military is expected to abide by the constitution and is not supposed to do anything that is in contrary to it, regardless of where they are. That alone would stand as reason to why we still have rights. What has yet to be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt is that we do not have rights. I understand that many have become accustom to this line of thinking. After all it is the status quo surrounding those in and near the military. This is due to years of conditioning and hearsay. Old wives tales are no longer the exception they're the rule.

Why would you argue that I have no rights without substantial proof. Furthermore what would you or anyone else stand to gain if we did not have rights here? Getting away from US constitutional rights, what about basic human rights covered by international law, NATO etc? Laws that are in place even over here in Japan.

I wonder how there could be any content for this. It does seem a bit illogical to have to ask permission to visit family, buy diapers out in town, take a walk around your neighborhood, or go down the street for a bite to eat. This resembles a few other nations with laws that are not arranged in the interest of the people. Doesn't really sound very American to me. America was never originally about falling in line and remaining silent. It was more about standing up against tyranny and for what you believe in.

[DougP]

Here's the problem.......................no one is standing up. I've asked at least 3-4 different times woul dyou rally up with other people and go meet with Condi, yet there is no response from you. She is in Tokyo, why havent there been any rallys by contractors/Civs? Your counterparts in Korea have it worse on a day to day basis, curfew at 12 weekdays and 1 a.m. on weekends. Most likely these will be the new Hrs. on Okinawa.

Here's the answer. Would it even seem feasible to take off from work on such short notice, organize a group and purchase plane tickets to Tokyo? Or would it seem more feasible to stay the course of remaining in contact with third party legal representation, congress, the media, and various human rights organizations?

[Muku]

Here's the answer. Would it even seem feasible to take off from work on such short notice, organize a group and purchase plane tickets to Tokyo? Or would it seem more feasible to stay the course of remaining in contact with third party legal representation, congress, the media, and various human rights organizations?

You forgot one other thing here Doug.....you would need permission to leave in the first place.:-|

[DougP]

You forgot one other thing here Doug.....you would need permission to leave in the first place.:-|

So true, so true:first:

[Muku]

Why would you argue that I have no rights without substantial proof. Furthermore what would you or anyone else stand to gain if we did not have rights here? Getting away from US constitutional rights, what about basic human rights covered by international law, NATO etc? Laws that are in place even over here in Japan.
QUOTE]

Why do you keep bringing up NATO here? What does that have to do with Japan and the current order and sofa status personell?


[QUOTE]To me this order is illegal for all of those concerned for a few reasons which I have gone over. Also the military is expected to abide by the constitution and is not supposed to do anything that is in contrary to it, regardless of where they are. That alone would stand as reason to why we still have rights. What has yet to be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt is that we do not have rights. I understand that many have become accustom to this line of thinking. After all it is the status quo surrounding those in and near the military. This is due to years of conditioning and hearsay. Old wives tales are no longer the exception they're the rule.

Doug, try thinking about it from a different angle here, you are saying that the military is expected to abide by the constitution of the US and do nothing contrary to it right?

Think about that a moment please.....if that is the case then the military as we know it would no longer exist because people would be claiming their rights under the constitution when they were forced to do something they didnt feel was right.

The military is not a democracy Doug I think you know that. So is that against the constitution then?


I wonder how there could be any content for this. It does seem a bit illogical to have to ask permission to visit family, buy diapers out in town, take a walk around your neighborhood, or go down the street for a bite to eat. This resembles a few other nations with laws that are not arranged in the interest of the people. Doesn't really sound very American to me. America was never originally about falling in line and remaining silent. It was more about standing up against tyranny and for what you believe in
Doug this has nothing to do with it, it is extraneous and just muddies the points that you are atempting to make.

[Gadget]

Doug, can you post the specifics of the 3rd party involvment you speak of?

I tend to agree that the order is unlawful as applied to civilians too - all civilians whether they be civil service, contractors, or dependents. After all, they've committed no crimes.

Yes, command authorites can remove command sponsorship which in turn removes the right to SOFA status. But command authorities have no legal authority over non-military personnel here on Okinawa. They do have it in certain other circumstances (combat zones etc), but not here in Japan.

I'm curious how the situation in Korea ended up. I remember when the contractors over there revolted and won. But I believe the contracting rules were changed subsequently though I don't know exactly how. Also keep in mind that technically - Korea is still a war zone.

Doug is right - although this lockdown won't last forever, it will likely turn into a curfew. So playing this out till the final legal battle is resolved is important. If command authorities don't have the right to create this restriction, then it's probable they also don't have the right to create a curfew. Although this whole thing doesn't affect me directly at the moment, it might in the future so I'm very interested in how this whole thing plays out.

As for US laws not applying over here - if could be mistaken but I believe some do. Some of you may remember a few years back when a dependent wife beat her 2 year old child to death with a spatula. The crime occurred off-base. The JNPs refused to prosecute because it was SOFA on SOFA crime. The military here had no jurisdiction so the only thing they could do was ERD the dependent. I heard (but don't know for sure) that civil authorities in California arrested her when she got off the plane - don't know the outcome of that. But I think the laws were changed so that if a civilian commits a crime while stationed overseas in an official capacity (gov't service or dependent of gov't service), then the US could prosecute if the Japanese don't.

Hopefully someone else on here remembers that story and the final outcome...

Finally, I wouldn't trust anything the JAG says - they are obligated to interpret the laws the way their commanders want them too. I hope some of Dougs 3rd party contacts get some Federal courts to provide an interpretation as well.

enjoy

p.s. Active duty mil shouldn't hassle contractors and civilians for bitching about this...some day you'll be in the same boat - these guys are setting the precedent for something that might affect you someday...

[DougP]

There are lawful orders and unlawful orders. This has already been covered.

By saying that the CG has the authority to dictate where civilians and there dependents can and cannot go, eat, etc is clearly stating that there are no guidelines set in place to protect us from being ordered to do anything else.

[Muku]

Doug separately here I would like to state for the record....

I honestly do not know if this order by the General is legal or not.

However I respect you and your "right" to voice your opinions and "concerns" about this issue.

I personally feel that what you are doing here helps to bring to light issues that others should also be thinking about as well. :thumbup: :first:

[Muku]

Doug is right - although this lockdown won't last forever, it will likely turn into a curfew.

I wish people would get just as pissed off about the possibility of a curfew as they do about the lockdown.

What is different about the two, other than the time? A curfew is a limitation placed on freedom of movement.

Think about this a moment, if placing a curfew on people is "legal" and "acceptable", then what makes the lockdown order illegal?

Edited to add....
I suppose it depends upon who is actually affected by the curfew right?

[DougP]

Gadget, I cannot divulged specific information on the third party proponents involved. Doing so would be in violation of privacy rights as it does not appear to be in their best interest to have their names spread across the net. Interesting enough how the privacy act of 1974 does apply to US proponents of SOFA even extended to service members. This seems to be yet another regulation from the great mother ship of America that has managed to smuggle its way overseas along with a few other inherent rights Americans civilian and service members share alike over here. I still hope I am able to vote while abroad as it would seem the constitution is no longer valid and cannot protect my right to do so.

[EatMoreFish]

I wish people would get just as pissed off about the possibility of a curfew as they do about the lockdown.

What is different about the two, other than the time? A curfew is a limitation placed on freedom of movement.

Think about this a moment, if placing a curfew on people is "legal" and "acceptable", then what makes the lockdown illegal?

Curfew is not a possibility. It’s a guarantee.

[DougP]

I wish people would get just as pissed off about the possibility of a curfew as they do about the lockdown.

What is different about the two, other than the time? A curfew is a limitation placed on freedom of movement.

Think about this a moment, if placing a curfew on people is "legal" and "acceptable", then what makes the lockdown order illegal?

Edited to add....
I suppose it depends upon who is actually affected by the curfew right?

People do get as pissed off. This is one of the many concerns and residual affects of this order that were addressed when this thing first kicked off. This scenario reads like a bad book.

[P_chan]

I wish people would get just as pissed off about the possibility of a curfew as they do about the lockdown.

What is different about the two, other than the time? A curfew is a limitation placed on freedom of movement.

Think about this a moment, if placing a curfew on people is "legal" and "acceptable", then what makes the lockdown order illegal?

Edited to add....
I suppose it depends upon who is actually affected by the curfew right?


But a curfew is easy to get around.

[Muku]

People do get as pissed off. This is one of the many concerns and residual affects of this order that were addressed when this thing first kicked off. This scenario reads like a bad book.

Sorry Doug I dont see the same anger and discontent directed towards restrictions of a curfew.

[DougP]

Sorry Doug I dont see the same anger and discontent directed towards restrictions of a curfew.

Hehe, not now but I'm sure more might surface when the time comes.

Eventually people come to a point where they will speak out. It all boils down to when the moment comes that something they cherish is taken from them. :thumbup:

[Oki0619]

Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

Oh wait they already did.......

[RODSCALIP5]

Gadget, I cannot divulged specific information on the third party proponents involved. Doing so would be in violation of privacy rights as it does not appear to be in their best interest to have their names spread across the net. Interesting enough how the privacy act of 1974 does apply to US proponents of SOFA even extended to service members. This seems to be yet another regulation from the great mother ship of America that has managed to smuggle its way overseas along with a few other inherent rights Americans civilian and service members share alike over here. I still hope I am able to vote while abroad as it would seem the constitution is no longer valid and cannot protect my right to do so.

LOL! Go see a Japanese Physician and see if the Privacy Act of 1974 still applies. You don't get it or maybe I don't get.

US Territory/Constitution= On Base
Foreign Country= Off Base

I don't see any voting stations out in town come election day, all U.S. citizens have to mail their votes in when overseas, it's you right. However, it's not your right to put in your vote out in town.

Like I said maybe I am the ignorant one who thinks one cannot claim their Bill of Rights in a foreign country..............................

[RODSCALIP5]

Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

Oh wait they already did.......

LOL! What freedom is being taken? I can't wait to hear the crying once they start moving everyone on base and lock the gates for good.................................

[DougP]

LOL! Go see a Japanese Physician and see if the Privacy Act of 1974 still applies. You don't get it or maybe I don't get.

US Territory/Constitution= On Base
Foreign Country= Off Base

I don't see any voting stations out in town come election day, all U.S. citizens have to mail their votes in when overseas, it's you right. However, it's not your right to put in your vote out in town.

Like I said maybe I am the ignorant one who thinks one cannot claim their Bill of Rights in a foreign country..............................

I didn't say anything about voting out in town. That of course would be in violation of the SOFA with Japan as we are not permitted to take part in any political action in this country. Of course that doesn't mean we cannot participate in US politics. Or can we? All kidding aside, I was referring to an absentee ballot. But since we have no rights here I guess the right to vote(in US elections) does not apply over here. According to what I've been told in this thread.

Now you brought up an interesting point. Looking at it from the view you just posted:

US Territory/Constitution= On Base
Foreign Country= Off Base

So then the military does not have the right to restrict my movement off base unless I commit a crime. That would fall into the hands of the Japanese. I must apologize for any ill words exchanged with you in the past and thank you for adding to the foundational support of what I've been implying all this time.:thumbup:

Cheers

[DougP]

LOL! What freedom is being taken? I can't wait to hear the crying once they start moving everyone on base and lock the gates for good.................................

Should be even more interesting when they try that with a few hundred Japanese spouses and dual citizen children. Yup that will go over real well.:thumbup1: They might want to speed up the building process if they're ever going to move over 5000 families on base along with everyone else residing there. I have faith in them though, after all they are my comrades:D

[RODSCALIP5]

I didn't say anything about voting out in town. That of course would be in violation of the SOFA with Japan as we are not permitted to take part in any political action in this country. Of course that doesn't mean we cannot participate in US politics. Or can we? All kidding aside, I was referring to an absentee ballot. But since we have no rights here I guess the right to vote(in US elections) does not apply over here. According to what I've been told in this thread.

Now you brought up an interesting point. Looking at it from the view you just posted:

US Territory/Constitution= On Base
Foreign Country= Off Base

So then the military does not have the right to restrict my movement off base unless I commit a crime. That would fall into the hands of the Japanese. I must apologize for any ill words exchanged with you in the past and thank you for adding to the foundational support of what I've been implying all this time.:thumbup:

Cheers


Like I said in an earlier post, they can restrict your movement OFF BASE when your Safety and National Interest/Security are at stake.......................

[RODSCALIP5]

Should be even more interesting when they try that with a few hundred Japanese spouses and dual citizen children. Yup that will go over real well.:thumbup1: They might want to speed up the building process if they're ever going to move over 5000 families on base along with everyone else residing there. I have faith in them though, after all they are my comrades:D

That would actually be very very interesting and entertaining to watch............DougP don't think I am trying to convince you not to proceed, you will open up a big can of worms which will probably result in nothing but unaccompanied tours to Oki.

[DougP]

Like I said in an earlier post, they can restrict your movement OFF BASE when your Safety and National Interest/Security are at stake.......................

Unfortunately it is not at stake and they can only do that in a war zone. If they wanted to do that in a non war zone they would have to enact martial law, which needs approval from Congress.:thumbup1:

[RODSCALIP5]

Unfortunately it is not at stake and they can only do that in a war zone. If they wanted to do that in a non war zone they would have to enact martial law, which needs approval from Congress.:thumbup1:

Unfortunately for you, certain politicians diasagree, therefore the "lockdown" is lawful and "curfews" will be lawful.

[DougP]

That would actually be very very interesting and entertaining to watch............DougP don't think I am trying to convince you not to proceed, you will open up a big can of worms which will probably result in nothing but unaccompanied tours to Oki.

What would be the point of bringing your family here if they can only stay on base? I'd rather it be a place like Korea was with 1 to 2 year unaccompanied tours. At least then I could see how this would be justified. This can of worms may also cause them to think of the consequences before they decide to put a thumb on everyone and their family Japanese or not, and apply pressure.

What you are forgetting is that there are several Japanese citizens caught up in this in their own country who have been forced into an unaccompanied tour. Their family is right down the street but they can't visit them without the proper paper work which seems to be taking longer to get approved then leave. A wonderful tactic to employ when our "successful":rolleyes: relationship with Japan has been put at risk. Drive a wedge between families and restrict some locals, even put financial sanctions on the local economy under the banner of "reflection"

[DougP]

Unfortunately for you, certain politicians diasagree, therefore the "lockdown" is lawful and "curfews" will be lawful.

Politicians agree and disagree all the time it all comes down to how many of them end up on your side. From water boarding to invading a country the real right and wrong of any situation doesn't always come down to what a few politicians disagree or agree with. Time is usually a deciding factor and since we are only in week two I am not discouraged by the fact that some do not want to be bothered by this. I expect that. I know people would rather wash their hands of it and go about their lives when the government tells them they can. I am afraid that I can not march to the tune of that drummer. Continue to swim against the current I must.

[RODSCALIP5]

Well we agree on one thing: 1 year unaccompanied tours.

[atb35]

What would be the point of bringing your family here if they can only stay on base? I'd rather it be a place like Korea was with 1 to 2 year unaccompanied tours. At least then I could see how this would be justified. This can of worms may also cause them to think of the consequences before they decide to put a thumb on everyone and their family Japanese or not, and apply pressure.

What you are forgetting is that there are several Japanese citizens caught up in this in their own country who have been forced into an unaccompanied tour. Their family is right down the street but they can't visit them without the proper paper work which seems to be taking longer to get approved then leave. A wonderful tactic to employ when our "successful":rolleyes: relationship with Japan has been put at risk. Drive a wedge between families and restrict some locals, even put financial sanctions on the local economy under the banner of "reflection"


Everyone that comes here has the option to do 1-2 year unaccompanied tour or three year accompanied...so it is the same as Korea if that is what your saying. (well for Navy and MC at least, dont know how AF or Army do things)

I agree that the Japanese spouses being restricted is stupid. I see the point of the commanders, but they are not applying common sense to that aspect of this lockdown.

[DougP]

I can agree to that.:D

[Muku]

but they are not applying common sense to that aspect of this lockdown.

I've made this comment before here well anyway....

When has common sense and the US military ever gone hand in hand?

Particularly in attempting to deal with incidents that involve individuals.

[GoochBomber]

If it makes sense, trust the military to do the complete opposite.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Okinawa restrictions frustrate dependents
Unclear criteria make spouses wonder when to request exemptions

CAMP FOSTER, Okinawa — Confusion over the rules for the indefinite “period of reflection” imposed last week for all personnel affiliated with the U.S. military on Okinawa is turning into anger.

After a week of being restricted to the bases or their off-base homes, Americans here are beginning to voice concerns about what some are calling being placed on “house arrest” for crimes they did not commit.

“How do they have the authority to do this to the wives and children of active-duty servicemembers — especially the Japanese spouses?” asked Kathryn Perez in a telephone interview Wednesday. She is the spouse of a Marine and lives in Chatan, near Kadena Air Base.

“One thing that is really amazing is not all of the commands are implementing the same rules,” she said. “Why can my friend, an Army spouse, do things when I can’t?”

Marine officials contacted by Stars and Stripes never call the order a restriction.

They say the “Period of Reflection” covers all persons on Okinawa — and at Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni and Camp Fuji on mainland Japan — sponsored by the Department of Defense.

“That includes Japanese spouses,” said Marine Master Sgt. Charles Albrecht, of Marine Corps Public Affairs.

In a special announcement that was first broadcast on American Forces Network on Wednesday morning, Marine Lt. Gen. Richard Zilmer, the senior U.S. general on Okinawa, reaffirmed that the restrictions would be in place until further notice.
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=52915

[OtisPMerriweather]

Here's my whole point on the lockdown thing...SITFU!

I mean, it is an inconvenience to everybody- that point is well taken. But I was listening to the AF colonel on AFN this morning and everybody was calling in to challenge this guy on the lockdown policy. Now, I'm no fan of officers in general, but think about it- the order was put in place by a 3 star general. That means everybody below the rank of three star general is locked down as well! The general's wives, the GS-15's, EVERYBODY is locked down. So the two questions I would ask anybody are:

1) What is so important out in town that you would risk your career/source of income/peace of mind to go out and do?? Eat some f***ing CoCos? Go to the 100 yen store? What could you possibly NEED out there that you can't get on base?? I live off base and I have a Japanese wife and guess what- BFD!!

2) If all these thousands and thousands of people are locked down- generals, old crusty GS15s, etc. included, what makes you and your wife so f***ing special!?! Again SITFU. Is it hurting you THAT much? There's guy somewhere right now in Iraq and Afghanistan who won't get to see tomorrow making sacrifices and all you can do is sit around and whine cause some fat a$$ dependant can't waddle around Mihama Jusco and burn yen.

Not directing this at anybody in particular, but this whining and whatnot has just got to stop. You made a decision, civilian or not, dependant or not, that you wanted to be affiliated directly or indirectly with the military and with that, that certain foolishness is to be expected. So live with it. Good thing the military is not a democracy. Go ahead. Write your congressman. Maybe he's a superdelegate.

My name is Otis P. Merriweather, and I approve this message.

[Tony Stacks]

[QUOTE=OtisPMerriweather;71711]

Not directing this at anybody in particular, but this whining and whatnot has just got to stop. You made a decision, civilian or not, dependant or not, that you wanted to be affiliated directly or indirectly with the military and with that, that certain foolishness is to be expected. So live with it. Good thing the military is not a democracy. Go ahead. Write your congressman. Maybe he's a superdelegate.

QUOTE]



Well civilians I am sure did NOT know this could happen to them.

[DougP]

yeah STFU what is so important you have to let your children play outside?
What is so important about a Japanese citizen being free to move about in their own country? What is so important that you should have to go to church? What is so important that you have to read a book? What is so damn important about voting that you need an absentee ballot.

The People's RED forces of SOFA demand your silence on these issues!!!

Sweet land of liberty.....

[Rollin_J's]

Not directing this at anybody in particular, but this whining and whatnot has just got to stop. You made a decision, civilian or not, dependant or not, that you wanted to be affiliated directly or indirectly with the military and with that, that certain foolishness is to be expected. So live with it. Good thing the military is not a democracy. Go ahead. Write your congressman. Maybe he's a superdelegate.

As Americans we tend to think arrogantly about things...we 'think' we are due more than we are...when in fact...even with these "restrictions" we still live a 1st Class lifestyle. :first:

Hear Hear to your post!!! :thumbup1:

R/S

Roll on

[OtisPMerriweather]

Well civilians I am sure did NOT know this could happen to them.

They knew that they were going to work for/with the military. And I would imagine a vast majority of the civilians who work over here have some prior military experience so they know how things should work.

But again, the questions are still valid- what is so important out in town, and what makes them so special?

Let me flip the scenario- let's say there was some sort of coup or military/rebel uprising in Japan where the local gov't was unstable and there was some form of martial law- these same civilians would be pounding the gates down demanding protection on the bases, praying to be "locked down" and not forced to go off base for things. True this sort of thing wouldn't happen in Japan, but you can see where I'm going with this.

[Rollin_J's]

Let me flip the scenario- let's say there was some sort of coup or military/rebel uprising in Japan where the local gov't was unstable and there was some form of martial law- these same civilians would be pounding the gates down demanding protection on the bases, praying to be "locked down" and not forced to go off base for things. True this sort of thing wouldn't happen in Japan, but you can see where I'm going with this.

They would also be demanding immediate evacuation, protection from harm, trying to blame the Military for their problems, accusing the military establishment of not providing them adequate housing on base, the list goes on.

R/S

Roll On

[OtisPMerriweather]

yeah STFU what is so important you have to let your children play outside?
What is so important about a Japanese citizen being free to move about in their own country? What is so important that you should have to go to church? What is so important that you have to read a book? What is so damn important about voting that you need an absentee ballot.

The People's RED forces of SOFA demand your silence on these issues!!!

Sweet land of liberty.....

Doug, nobody's telling you your kid can't go outside to play, or denying you your "rights". But I challenge you to name me five places you NEED to go off base that the lockdown prevents you from effectively doing. I await your response bro.

[DougP]

They knew that they were going to work for/with the military. And I would imagine a vast majority of the civilians who work over here have some prior military experience so they know how things should work.

But again, the questions are still valid- what is so important out in town, and what makes them so special?

Let me flip the scenario- let's say there was some sort of coup or military/rebel uprising in Japan where the local gov't was unstable and there was some form of martial law- these same civilians would be pounding the gates down demanding protection on the bases, praying to be "locked down" and not forced to go off base for things. True this sort of thing wouldn't happen in Japan, but you can see where I'm going with this.

Your scenario is the actual only acceptable one in which the military should be able to do what they are doing now.

Also your question of what is so important out there is not a valid one. No more valid than my question of what is so important about religion that you should be able to practice it. The point of importance is nullified by the fact that they are both rights and in many circles outside even our own constitution(to include Japan) are considered to be inherent rights and restricting your movement (which is also covered by limiting your movement) is only valid when done as a recourse to someone who has committed a felony.(broken a law etc.)

[DougP]

Doug, nobody's telling you your kid can't go outside to play, or denying you your "rights". But I challenge you to name me five places you NEED to go off base that the lockdown prevents you from effectively doing. I await your response bro.

I'll easily name those five places if you can give me five reasons why I shouldn't be able to go there.:thumbup:

[okidokey]

No more valid than my question of what is so important about religion that you should be able to practice it.

That has bugged me from the beginning of this "Period of Reflection." I considered getting myself a REALLY BIG IMAGINARY FRIEND so I could increase my liberties, but after I sobered up I thought better of it. :rolleyes:

[OtisPMerriweather]

I'll easily name those five places if you can give me five reasons why I shouldn't be able to go there.:thumbup:

I can give you one- cause our boss said we couldn't. That is the nature of the beast. If you want something, you gotta give something. You want to get those checks in the mail, you gotta do what the boss says. Or quit.

There's things I gotta do all the time that I don't agree with or that I'd rather not do, but guess what. The alternative is worse than the imposition and that is the situation that we all find ourselves in now.

Sucks, but so does life sometimes.

[Muku]

Doug I dont think you are going to get many people here to agree with you about the right of freedom of religion being anyhow linked to or even equal to the vailidity or legality of the order by the General regarding this lockdown.

[DougP]

Muku, you sure are right about that one. I cannot convince others that they have rights. People have to take a step back and look into it themselves. The erosion of persons self worth has constructed a barrier and assigned things that they have always had as rights a new definition. Privileges. Rights exist whether or not people, governments, or military officials choose to recognize them. From the dawn of humanity this has been contested and wars have been fought against rights or in favor of rights. Oddly enough our own country was forged on this belief that no man or governing officials has the right to take away what is inherently ours.

Even if a General or president said that you cannot visit your family or could not pick the apple from the tree you have grown yourself without their consent it would not mean that these are now privileges. Governments nor geography can take away your rights when you have done nothing wrong to deserve such a thing. They can only violate your rights and when they do, be it because they have the power, it does not mean they have the right or that they are in the right.

[DougP]

Just to add:

I honestly never thought I would see the day that any fellow American would actually take the stand against our basic rights. The day that any America would speak out and say "We have no rights!" I'd imagine that the forgers of our Constitution must be rolling over in their graves right about now.

Perhaps we may have more of a nation of content followers and not so many that carry the love and respect of freedom. The Bill of Rights has become a distant memory and is no longer the common fiber that each American shares.
I know there are some out there that still believe in this, and for that I am relieved, but still somewhat dismayed by the content of others.

[Naminori79]

Muku, you sure are right about that one. I cannot convince others that they have rights. People have to take a step back and look into it themselves. The erosion of persons self worth has constructed a barrier and assigned things that they have always had as rights a new definition. Privileges. Rights exist whether or not people, governments, or military officials choose to recognize them. From the dawn of humanity this has been contested and wars have been fought against rights or in favor of rights. Oddly enough our own country was forged on this belief that no man or governing officials has the right to take away what is inherently ours.

Even if a General or president said that you cannot visit your family or could not pick the apple from the tree you have grown yourself without their consent it would not mean that these are now privileges. Governments nor geography can take away your rights when you have done nothing wrong to deserve such a thing. They can only violate your rights and when they do, be it because they have the power, it does not mean they have the right or that they are in the right.

The thing that makes America special and her Constitution special is that it recognizes certain things as our birth right. In other words we rate certain things just by our existence as Americans. No king or government has granted them to us, they are ours because we exist.

Most of the people who do not like hearing this have been living under the military or government for years and have lost there ability to think critically - with that said, they have lost their grip on reality as well.

You hear the same old things from these guys, simply because they were all cast in the same factory. The sad thing is they don't even know it.

There are a few that have managed to keep their identity and thoughts. I am truly impressed with those individuals.

[Crystal Blue]

Hay just looking over the remarks. Sure Marines get in trouble and so does other members of the Army, Air Force and Navy. However, those in the Air Force know how the Air Force covers things up. You pull stats and you would be surprised what the numbers show. So why are we busting on each others branch when members of each branch are dying a long side of one another in the sand box? We are restricted. PERIOD! A lot of you are starting to sound like a bunch of little spoiled kids.

[NibiKitsune]

count me as one who has been living under the military sect but still retained his critcal thinking identity (a difficult task mind you)

[quiltpig]

Okay, I'm jumping in here:

I've been reading threads in this "lockdown" forum for days. I'd like to say a few things.

When someone takes a job which gives them SOFA status, that makes them part of USFJ. They then fall under the command of USFJ right? As a US citizen in Japan under SOFA your constitutional rights are only garanteed on US soil. ( I know the US leases the land from Okinawa, but I'm guessing it is still considered US soil when constitutional rights are considered) As a US citizen in Japan you do not have any constitutional rights off base other than those in the SOFA.

No one is being told they can not exercise their right to liberty, or their right to pursue happiness on base. In fact we are all being encouraged to enjoy ourselves on base. I do not understand all of this arguing about constutional rights, what is legal or not, when our constitutional rights are only guaranteed on US soil. If you are not a citizen of Japan, you do not have the right to anything here in Okinawa.

I also do not understand the coercion argument. I'm guessing you were not forced to take a job which required SOFA. If you find yourself unwilling to abide by the terms of USFJ, whom you work for, then I suggest you find other employment with terms you are willing to accept.

I am not saying this "lockdown' thing doesn't suck. I'm not happy about it myself. But my rights as a US citizen are NOT being abused. I feel lucky to be here at all.

[RODSCALIP5]

I'm still having a hard time trying to tie in the Constitution/Freedom/Bill of Rights with not being able to go off base in a foreign country. You are more than welcome to go anywhere you want ON BASE or your PLACE OF RESIDENCE. If we were in California and they locked us down on CAMP PENDELTON then I would be there right next to you and probably disobeying those orders. THIS IS NOT OUR COUNTRY, WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU GUYS NOT GET? I WONDER HOW MANY JAPANESE CITIZENS GIVE A SH *T ABOUT OUR BILL OF RIGHTS/FREEDOM/CONSTITUTION.

[Oki0619]

Okay, I'm jumping in here:

I've been reading threads in this "lockdown" forum for days. I'd like to say a few things.

When someone takes a job which gives them SOFA status, that makes them part of USFJ. They then fall under the command of USFJ right? As a US citizen in Japan under SOFA your constitutional rights are only garanteed on US soil. ( I know the US leases the land from Okinawa, but I'm guessing it is still considered US soil when constitutional rights are considered) As a US citizen in Japan you do not have any constitutional rights off base other than those in the SOFA.

No one is being told they can not exercise their right to liberty, or their right to pursue happiness on base. In fact we are all being encouraged to enjoy ourselves on base. I do not understand all of this arguing about constutional rights, what is legal or not, when our constitutional rights are only guaranteed on US soil. If you are not a citizen of Japan, you do not have the right to anything here in Okinawa.

I also do not understand the coercion argument. I'm guessing you were not forced to take a job which required SOFA. If you find yourself unwilling to abide by the terms of USFJ, whom you work for, then I suggest you find other employment with terms you are willing to accept.

I am not saying this "lockdown' thing doesn't suck. I'm not happy about it myself. But my rights as a US citizen are NOT being abused. I feel lucky to be here at all.


USC 2417 The Bill of bilateral Civil Freedoms act of 1958 gives us those inalienable rights to which we hereby lay claim to:rolleyes:

[gunny8511]

USC 2417 The Bill of bilateral Civil Freedoms act of 1958 gives us those inalienable rights to which we hereby lay claim to:rolleyes:

Nice rolling of the eyes, and laying of claim...

The United States Code now applies in other nations? Wow; I missed that one in the news. Do we have rights to television and gyms in Japanese jails now too?

What title and section of the usc did you find this under?

[Oki0619]

Nice rolling of the eyes, and laying of claim...

The United States Code now applies in other nations? Wow; I missed that one in the news. Do we have rights to television and gyms in Japanese jails now too?

Thats specifically what it addresses if you took the time to read it

[OtisPMerriweather]

Oddly enough our own country was forged on this belief that no man or governing officials has the right to take away what is inherently ours.

Even if a General or president said that you cannot visit your family or could not pick the apple from the tree you have grown yourself without their consent it would not mean that these are now privileges.

Well we could bandy this point back and forth all day, but in all actuality a right, by definition, is the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled. Now, it seems you are confusing the difference between rights and rules.

Every community has an agreed upon set of rules that members of that community abide by. No government or community on earth is going to give you the freedom to cherry-pick which laws you will or won't follow. This is to ensure that everyone's rights are respected by other members of that community. The beauty of the program is that in this community, you do however, in this instance, have the right to voluntarily leave this community if you deem its laws are too restrictive.

I would add to that the General has restricted himself as well (although I will concede the point that no one realistically will stop him or his family from going out if he chose), so the Gen. Zilmer as despot theory doesn't really hold water. Unless, of course, you catch him at Cocos.

[EatMoreFish]

Not sure how many lawyers are on the forum but I can guarantee you that General Zilmer has more than one and I can guarantee you he checked with all of them before issuing the lockdown order.

[Rollin_J's]

Not sure how many lawyers are on the forum but I can guarantee you that General Zilmer has more than one and I can guarantee you he checked with all of them before issuing the lockdown order.

He has 9 Marine Lawyers....not too mention the State Departments and other USFJ assets. These orders came from USFJ....not LtGen Zilmer...

[Uchinanchumuku]

Hay just looking over the remarks. Sure Marines get in trouble and so does other members of the Army, Air Force and Navy. However, those in the Air Force know how the Air Force covers things up. You pull stats and you would be surprised what the numbers show. So why are we busting on each others branch when members of each branch are dying a long side of one another in the sand box? We are restricted. PERIOD! A lot of you are starting to sound like a bunch of little spoiled kids.

This is one of my major complaints about Mass Punishment. It does not bring us together to solve the problem at hand. Instead it has the opposite affect and puts us against each other. We are not going to solve anything this way.

Furthermore, there is resentment building towards the Okinawans and they didn't do anything. Their the victim.

[DougP]

Lets just say it like this. Since Japan hasn't restricted us from moving about off base then that freedom has not been taken away.

Also there is nothing in the SOFA that states that we do not have the freedom to move about off post of that it can be taken from us without due cause or when we have not violated neither the laws of the US or Japan.

What I do not understand is how anyone out there cannot see something horribly wrong with being told where you can or cannot go grocery shopping or that you cannot walk 2 minutes to a store to get supplies, diapers, or that your kid cannot play at the park across the street. How there is anything remotely ok with the fact that your freedoms can be taken away little by little and then defined as privileges.

These freedoms that I have mentioned are not just freedoms under the constitution. The are basic human rights that every citizen of this planet is entitled to. I don't see how how anyone can be ok with any government taking away these rights.

How is it when you see people being put under curfew and not being able to elect officials in some far off country you get upset, you get inspired? Inspired to go over there and liberate them from tyranny. But when your fellow man, or your neighbor is being stripped of their ability to choose where they can go for a jog, when they can visit a sick relative, where they can allow their own kids to play, where is the voice then?

That voice in which you cannot find has been stripped from you long ago already and replaced by someone else's. One that you can only use when told to. When it no longer applies to your own countrymen.

[RODSCALIP5]

This is one of my major complaints about Mass Punishment. It does not bring us together to solve the problem at hand. Instead it has the opposite affect and puts us against each other. We are not going to solve anything this way.

Furthermore, there is resentment building towards the Okinawans and they didn't do anything. Their the victim.

There are no VICTIMS in this whole situation, just one St u pid Marine.

[DougP]

Nice rolling of the eyes, and laying of claim...

The United States Code now applies in other nations? Wow; I missed that one in the news. Do we have rights to television and gyms in Japanese jails now too?

What title and section of the usc did you find this under?

You're confusing committing a crime and falling under another nations jurisdiction because of that crime with perusing the rights that are naturally yours. Rights you have had your entire life, and have been exercising them since you've been here. The reason why they were never stripped from you before is because you have followed the laws of Japan and the US.

And yes US laws still do apply to us over here and that is in the SOFA. We are to adhere to our own laws as well as the ones of this country.

[RODSCALIP5]

Lets just say it like this. Since Japan hasn't restricted us from moving about off base then that freedom has not been taken away.

Also there is nothing in the SOFA that states that we do not have the freedom to move about off post of that it can be taken from us without due cause or when we have not violated neither the laws of the US or Japan.

What I do not understand is how anyone out there cannot see something horribly wrong with being told where you can or cannot go grocery shopping or that you cannot walk 2 minutes to a store to get supplies, diapers, or that your kid cannot play at the park across the street. How there is anything remotely ok with the fact that your freedoms can be taken away little by little and then defined as privileges.

These freedoms that I have mentioned are not just freedoms under the constitution. The are basic human rights that every citizen of this planet is entitled to. I don't see how how anyone can be ok with any government taking away these rights.

How is it when you see people being put under curfew and not being able to elect officials in some far off country you get upset, you get inspired? Inspired to go over there and liberate them from tyranny. But when your fellow man, or your neighbor is being stripped of their ability to choose where they can go for a jog, when they can visit a sick relative, where they can allow their own kids to play, where is the voice then?

That voice in which you cannot find has been stripped from you long ago already and replaced by someone else's. One that you can only use when told to. When it no longer applies to your own countrymen.

Have you followed any of the media reports recently? The Japanese Gov. wanted something done. If you think the Japanese Gov. didnt have some part in this you are sadly mistaking.

[DougP]

Not sure how many lawyers are on the forum but I can guarantee you that General Zilmer has more than one and I can guarantee you he checked with all of them before issuing the lockdown order.

You are probably right and sad enough none of them told him he does not have the right to restrict a Japanese local regardless of who he or she is married to or a dependent of. The Air Force and Army recognized this with a quickness and made alterations to this order. Unfortunately the Marines have not.

If this is the work of multiple lawyers hard at work then I hope they are relieved because this is an abortion if I ever saw one.

[DougP]

Have you followed any of the media reports recently? The Japanese Gov. wanted something done. If you think the Japanese Gov. didnt have some part in this you are sadly mistaking.

Right, they demanded action(just action) but did not enact a law. Big difference.

[gunny8511]

Thats specifically what it addresses if you took the time to read it

I would if you'd answer my original question: What section and title? "2417" isn't very specific (nor accurate). Cornell's law page returns some unrelated results about the presidential seal and such...

[Oki0619]

I would if you'd answer my original question: What section and title? "2417" isn't very specific (nor accurate). Cornell's law page returns some unrelated results about the presidential seal and such...

I am sorry the post was meant to be sarcastic hence the :rolleyes: I made the whole thing up, but since it was not on a 3 by 5 card in your cover........

[gunny8511]

I am sorry the post was meant to be sarcastic hence the :rolleyes: I made the whole thing up, but since it was not on a 3 by 5 card in your cover........

You seem to have a fixation with my prior hat status; that's a bit odd.

Sorry if I misunderstood the sarcasm. I usually get a kick out of smartass responses.

[Muku]

Governments nor geography can take away your rights when you have done nothing wrong to deserve such a thing. They can only violate your rights and when they do, be it because they have the power, it does not mean they have the right or that they are in the right.

Doug I hope you mean US for the government and US Military bases for geography.

Also there has to be a belief that one has certain rights while they are alive because to me at least taking away a persons rights and violating said rights can be viewed as one in the same.

It comes back again to what your definition of a "right" is vs a "privledge". I can take away my sons "right" to watch TV because he is my son, for what ever reason, am I violating his "right"? Or is it a "privledge"?

Similar to the lockdown to me at least Doug, just on a larger scale that's all.

Sorry I couldnt think of a better analogy on the spur of the moment.:o

[Oki0619]

You seem to have a fixation with my prior hat status; that's a bit odd.

Sorry if I misunderstood the sarcasm. I usually get a kick out of smartass responses.

Well usually the guys that hang on to the moniker we (all of my friends) all laugh at because they cannot let it go and remember it was just a job, and I have made it my lifes intent to make it hard on them:thumbup1: I especially like it when they want to be 8999s, I mean why would you want to lat move to admin that late in your career?:-|

[xXNothingnessXx]

You are probably right and sad enough none of them told him he does not have the right to restrict a Japanese local regardless of who he or she is married to or a dependent of. The Air Force and Army recognized this with a quickness and made alterations to this order. Unfortunately the Marines have not.

If this is the work of multiple lawyers hard at work then I hope they are relieved because this is an abortion if I ever saw one.

I have have received guidance from my Commaders about local nationals not being restricted and I am in the Marine Corps. The sponsor to the national may not accompany him or her though.

[Oki0619]

I have have received guidance from my Commaders about local nationals not being restricted and I am in the Marine Corps. The sponsor to the national may not accompany him or her though.

what command?

[DougP]

Doug I hope you mean US for the government and US Military bases for geography.

Also there has to be a belief that one has certain rights while they are alive because to me at least taking away a persons rights and violating said rights can be viewed as one in the same.

It comes back again to what your definition of a "right" is vs a "privledge". I can take away my sons "right" to watch TV because he is my son, for what ever reason, am I violating his "right"? Or is it a "privledge"?

Similar to the lockdown to me at least Doug, just on a larger scale that's all.

Sorry I couldnt think of a better analogy on the spur of the moment.:o

Muku that line is rather blurred right now but even with the analogy I'll attempt to explain.

Without going into the discussion of if it was your child in your house watching TV and parental rights etc. Lets look at it like this.

Let's say it was you in your house watching the TV you bought with your own money from working hard. Now lets say you were inside your house watching your TV(think property) Would it be your right to watch your TV? Or would the government have a say in it?

Now another thing to consider, because after all it is important on what your definition is here.

What about tracking your movement.. think of the subject of RFID.
Is your right to move about freely without the government or someone else knowing your where abouts(being that you are not a criminal) your right?
Or is it a privilege? Would you believe it to be a privilege because you live here in Japan?

[socalheart]

You best get your local national that "guidance" IN WRITING specifically with his/her name on the document. The military is notorius for saying, "we never said that" after the fact. I don't trust them as far as I can shoot at them; and over here, we aren't allowed guns. heh. (not that I would shoot at the commanders.. yeesh, lighten up you... and you know who you are. :p )
I have have received guidance from my Commaders about local nationals not being restricted and I am in the Marine Corps. The sponsor to the national may not accompany him or her though.

[Muku]

What about tracking your movement.. think of the subject of RFID.
Is your right to move about freely without the government or someone else knowing your where abouts(being that you are not a criminal) your right?
Or is it a privilege? Would you believe it to be a privilege because you live here in Japan?

Doug they are not tracking your movements, just limiting what areas you can move about it. That's all.

Oh edited to add here.....

Do you believe that it is your right to move about anywhere you choose to go?