Chinese black market in body parts

[Isaak Brodsky]

What ought to be done about China's apparent international black market in cadaver exploitation and exportation?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4291334&page=1

[Asshat]

What ought to be done about China's apparent international black market in cadaver exploitation and exportation?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4291334&page=1

I just saw this on 20/20. I find it ghastly. There is no doubt in my mind that executed Chinese are being plastisized and sent to the US so the weak of mind can revel in the macabre.

Sorry for my spelling. I absolutely detest this and encourage anyone reading not to spend money to view this attrocity.

[Isaak Brodsky]

We likely saw the same thing. The report by ABC reporters left me speechless. What an abhorrent practice by both exporter and importer as well as a bizarre and growing public fascination with cadavers.

It’s difficult to wrap the mind around this practice. Does it all boil down to simply the search for monetary gain by unscrupulous black marketers? Or, is there some legitimate moral cause at work here?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

If the news report is accurate, any Western medical school, or company that supplies medical schools, should immediately stop importing cadavers from China if they have been, and refuse to accept any until some way to conclusively verify the wishes of the deceased is found.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I agree entirely. The details in ABC’s report were so outrageous that the story itself seemed unbelievable. What chutzpah it took for that reporter to actually show up on the premises where cadavers were being prepared for plastification.

Given the scandals of lead-tainted toys, fake chicken eggs, pesticide-poisoned gyoza and toxic farm produce, you gotta ask just what the bloody hell is going on here.

This cadaver story, though, tops them all. I wonder if the US Congress will actually have the balls to begin a more widespread investigation into this bizarre report.

[VWBOYAF1]

I cannot believe that we have open trade with this country. I hate when I'm shopping for something, and everything is Made in China. Please congress, it is time to stop free trade with china. I don't care if it does cause the price of goods to rise in America. Sometimes you have to pay for peace of mind.

[Asshat]

This cadaver story, though, tops them all. I wonder if the US Congress will actually have the balls to begin a more widespread investigation into this bizarre report.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I have my suspisions about other issues at work vis-a-vis China's favored trade status.

But in this particular case, California has a bill out-lawing this going for a vote. With the US Congress busy with other important matters such as determining which ML Baseball player lied about steroids, they might not have time for this. ;)

[okisteve]

The German doctor who does those plasticized cadavers has had exhibitions at several big museums (in Europe mainly) and is considered a creative genius........

[Asshat]

The German doctor who does those plasticized cadavers has had exhibitions at several big museums (in Europe mainly) and is considered a creative genius........

And quit doing buisness with the Chinese, 100%. He does shows in the US too. Did you see the interview with him?

[okisteve]

And quit doing buisness with the Chinese, 100%. He does shows in the US too. Did you see the interview with him?
No, but I heard a rather long interview on radio a few months back. Maybe BBC.

[Asshat]

No, but I heard a rather long interview on radio a few months back. Maybe BBC.

Last night was the 20/20 show. The interviewer went to China and to the factory. It was spoda be the Dalien University Plastication Laboratory. Looked like a back yard mechanics' lean to. The manager of the facility didn't know where the bodies came from. (Yeah right)

They interviewed a Chinese who used to supply the bodies. Said he got them after they were executed and tossed out into the snow. They showed photos.

They interviewed the German. He said he stopped accepting bodies from China because he was sure they were exectuted criminals. He said he cremated all he had.

This is an indictment on society- American society- that would pay for this kind of thing. I guess it gets in the weeds as far as religious beliefs, but even without that, it is so completely disrespectful.

[Isaak Brodsky]

This is an indictment on society- American society- that would pay for this kind of thing. I guess it gets in the weeds as far as religious beliefs, but even without that, it is so completely disrespectful.

Agreed on both accounts. I can just imagine, though, how the Chinese would react if Americans started beating the drums morality. Soon, questions about Guantanamo and the ethical treatment of political prisoners there would begin to swirl.

Is there some rational argument for seeing a parallel between what the Chinese are doing in light of what the Americans have been doing in Guantanamo Bay? (If the cadavers are actually political casualties, that is.)

[Asshat]

Agreed on both accounts. I can just imagine, though, how the Chinese would react if Americans started beating the drums morality. Soon, questions about Guantanamo and the ethical treatment of political prisoners there would begin to swirl.

Is there some rational argument for seeing a parallel between what the Chinese are doing in light of what the Americans have been doing in Guantanamo Bay? (If the cadavers are actually political casualties, that is.)

No, I don't think so. I hope you are doing a realistic post and not a lead-in to something political and anti-American Ian. (We have our Canadian friend doing that here on a regular basis, thank you)

China doesn't regulate squat. In every country there are crimes committed. Crimes against the State, crimes against children, women, each other...

This is not a "China" issue other than it's inability to control what it exports. Okay, in all fairness, perhaps it is indicative of it's lack of compassion for prisoners. For all we know, we are looking at plastic versions of Jack the Ripper.

However, the cadaver with the infant in the womb led me to believe I was looking at political prisoners.

We can vent/vet Gitmo and waterboarding in another thread.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Agreed on both accounts. I can just imagine, though, how the Chinese would react if Americans started beating the drums morality. Soon, questions about Guantanamo and the ethical treatment of political prisoners there would begin to swirl.

Is there some rational argument for seeing a parallel between what the Chinese are doing in light of what the Americans have been doing in Guantanamo Bay? (If the cadavers are actually political casualties, that is.)
I think you have a point Ian. It is awfully difficult for a country to try and stop what they view as ongoing violations of human rights in another country, when that very same country is bogged down in its own current human rights scandal. America has very little bargaining power on moral terms right now. If they can get world cooperation, they may be able to wage an economic battle, but with the EC and Asian blocks often going their own way, even that is getting a lot more difficult these days.

[Isaak Brodsky]

No, I don't think so. I hope you are doing a realistic post and not a lead-in to something political and anti-American Ian.

China doesn't regulate squat. In every country there are crimes committed. Crimes against the State, crimes against children, women, each other...

This is not a "China" issue other than it's inability to control what it exports. Okay, in all fairness, perhaps it is indicative of it's lack of compassion for prisoners. For all we know, we are looking at plastic versions of Jack the Ripper.

However, the cadaver with the infant in the womb led me to believe I was looking at political prisoners.

We can vent/vet Gitmo and waterboarding in another thread.

I am in no way attempting to draw some direct parallel between the two.

If American diplomats want to decry what the Chinese are apparently doing in terms of forced abortions and the elimination of political opposition, I think that certain politicians within the American political system ought to look more closely at America’s own stand on the ethical dimensions of detaining political prisoners. I’m only suggesting in this post that this practice is so outrageous that somebody has got to uncover the truth here.

Furthermore, I do not think that it is un-American to single out and to call into question the policies of a certain executive administration’s policies on the matter of basic human rights.

Maybe that xenophobe Lou Dobbs has a point: America really is selling out, not only to cheap foreign labor, but also to the vast potential of the Chinese market.

After all, how free is a market if people can’t freely choose Count Chocula over Cap’n Crunch and voice their dissent?

[okisteve]

I think you have a point Ian. It is awfully difficult for a country to try and stop what they view as ongoing violations of human rights in another country, when that very same country is bogged down in its own current human rights scandal. America has very little bargaining power on moral terms right now. If they can get world cooperation, they may be able to wage an economic battle, but with the EC and Asian blocks often going their own way, even that is getting a lot more difficult these days.

One country that does have a decent human rights record is the Netherlands, and they have decided to boycott the opening ceremonies of the Olympics in protest of China's human rights abuses and also its support of the Sudanese government against intervention in Darfur. Interstingly, they did not go as far as totally boycotting the Olympics out of consideration of their athletes, who have been training for a long time.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Increasingly, the world will look to such countries for ideas, and and an increased role in disputes and mediation.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I have my suspisions about other issues at work vis-a-vis China's favored trade status.

So, would you expand a bit on those suspicions? Just wondering if we're thinking along the same lines here.

[Asshat]

So, would you expand a bit on those suspicions? Just wondering if we're thinking along the same lines here.

I've noted a plethora of anti-Chinese products from US news sources. (We all have)

While I am sure these instances of poison dog food, and toxic paints have validity, I am a bit suspicious that they are getting so much air time now. Trade with China is nothing new, it's favored nation status has been around (off and on) for a long time, and the US has been importing it's products.

I make the assumption that it's QC regimine has not changed much- certainly, it has not decreased.

So is the recent "bad news" on China a political move by the US to devalue trade with China, slow down it's new-found capitolism, or what?

I absolutely do not see it as a stab at it's human-rights problems. That is another story.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I make the assumption that it's QC regimine has not changed much- certainly, it has not decreased.

So is the recent "bad news" on China a political move by the US to devalue trade with China, slow down it's new-found capitolism, or what?

I see your point, but this most recent story begs a question about human rights, given the subjects/objects that are being exported.

This has got to be incredibly embarassing, at least, for the regime. I'm not sure that this story - no matter how bizarre - will affect China's growing economic might. What it does do, I think, is illustrate the extent to which the regime will go to supply a perceived need in the global market. The examples of an outrageous lack of quality control in consumer products and new international trade in human bodies really illustrates the extreme forms of market capitalism that China has adopted.

It will be something to watch, to see what happens politically as the economic machine continues to grow in strength.

[Asshat]

I see your point, but this most recent story begs a question about human rights, given the subjects/objects that are being exported.

This has got to be incredibly embarassing, at least, for the regime. I'm not sure that this story - no matter how bizarre - will affect China's growing economic might. What it does do, I think, is illustrate the extent to which the regime will go to supply a perceived need in the global market. The examples of an outrageous lack of quality control in consumer products and new international trade in human bodies really illustrates the extreme forms of market capitalism that China has adopted.

It will be something to watch, to see what happens politically as the economic machine continues to grow in strength.


Well, we already know about China's human rights...or lack of them. However, we also know that China will capitulate to world opinion.

I don't think the current news reporting of substandard products is related to human rights.

[retributionnk]

It will be something to watch, to see what happens politically as the economic machine continues to grow in strength.

Is it not obvious by the economic and political growth of China over the last decade? China is slowly moving from a harsh communist government to a full out capitalist democracy of some shade. Right now, during the in-between time, they've got what I like to call capitommunism; China trying to maintain control of its ever-wealthier people (not that they're that wealthy... yet), but realizing that if they want to keep their economy growing, they need to loosen the reigns a bit. I'm not saying that China will ever have a true democracy, hell they may even keep the name 'communism', but the people will become more and more informed, more and more free, and more and more opinionated. It has already started.

As for The OP, it's not surprising to me at all. Maybe in a few years, when news like this isn't kept from China's own people, the seed of dissent will actually be planted in their minds. Until Chinese media is released from government control, this won't happen. And in this case, I don't think political pressure from other countries will work. I'm sure these American corporations still want their cadavers, and they want 'em cheap. They'll get them from China, even if an outward political front against them exists. Hell they may even use it just to settle down the moralists.

[okisteve]

The Chinese government (i.e., the Party) has complete control and is loosening the reins in a fairly orderly way considering the challenges entailed in governing a huge and dynamic country. But ordinary people are a) more concerned with getting a little bigger piece of pie than human rights, and b) scared of protesting because the examples of dissidents are well-known and not very pretty.

So most pressure has to come from outside. Human rights can be protested symbolically, like the Dutch are doing with the olympics. Maybe it will have an effect, more likely a token result. Problems like product safety, fake drugs, etc., are probly easier to correct by market reactions.

They are VERY smart people - don't lose sight of that fact.

[Isaak Brodsky]

An exceedingly excellent friend of mine who passed away some years ago was of Chinese descent born in Seoul, Korea. He had been living in Japan for ten years by the time I met him. He was so ardently pro-mainland China that he would literally weep at night over frustrations about what he perceived to be America's arrogance and tacit contempt towards the regime in Beijing. This was in the mid-90s.

When I'd ask about the summer of '89 and the pro-democracy movement, he would immediately and consistently shift the subject away from any question about what had actually happened there. I don't know for sure what he'd say today if he were still here to respond to what is going on with China's wholesale adoption of capitalism tempered with communist political constraints, but I imagine he might try to turn away attention to this current issue.