ARists and Adoption

[DocTurtle]

I was talking with the wife tonight and some how ARist where brought up. I believe that ARist stands for Animal Rights activists, if not then I apologize, because I'm going to keep typing ARist because I don't know better, at least for this post anyways.

She was telling me how a lady in a forum that she is a part of yells at people who complain about not being able to take their pets with them when they PCS. She yells at people telling them how "pets are a life time commitment" and that "they should never be able to have another one again seeing how they just leave them behind."

We also talked about how she hated pets shops. I was confused by this and asked why. She said that it had something to do with the way they are bred and how their are pets in the pound that should be adopted, not bought from pet stores.

So what do ARists believe about adoption? ARists believe that animals should have the same rights as humans, or at least be treated fairly, from what I understand. Does this mean that instead of breeding we should adopt? (That would help your population control TP in your perfect world ;)) Just thought it would be an interesting question. Can't wait to read responses in the morning. :D

[TheNoNamedOne]

She was telling me how a lady in a forum that she is a part of yells at people who complain about not being able to take their pets with them when they PCS. She yells at people telling them how "pets are a life time commitment" and that "they should never be able to have another one again seeing how they just leave them behind."

No reason to "yell" in a text based medium.

As for PCSing and animal companion responsibility...hmmm... it is not so simple.

Some people rescue animals from the street or pounds knowing right from the start that their only goal is to give the animal some comfort and some extra time alive, not intending them to be a part of the family...kind of like foster caring or boarding them. With that in mind they view themselves as more as a halfway house for these animals.

I think these people deserve credit for providing care for these animals, and hopefully they work hard to place them in a good home before they PCS. IN that case I have no problem with them moving on to a new location and being quick to pluck some other unlucky animal out of a miserable situation and do the same.

However, if someone purchases or adopts an animal for reasons of utility i.e. wanting companionship, and that utility of them is their main motivation, then they should be willing to reciprocate and see to it that that animal has them as a family for the rest of their life and let themselves to be utilized. It is unfair to cut off that implicit contract from one end when one has gotten all they want out of it or when the other just becomes inconvenient for them.

These people who drive the pet shops and breeder mills by purchasing from them should not be allowed to get another animal if they do not PCS with these animals.

I think the command of each base could effectively regulate this.

I do think that the core of this woman's point is valid.

I'll address the other parts of your OP soon, DrT.

[Asshat]

TP, this is the most honest, calm and totally cool post I have read of yours in a long time. I appreciate your sentiment in this.

I miss having a dog. I have lived with them all of my life. But I realize the commitment it takes...no more hassle-free vacations, walks in the rain, late at night, early in the morning, chewed up stuff, hair, mud, slobber, shit, pee....

Of all of that, it is simply my current ability to properly and FOREVER be able to care for an animal. I feel guilt at my greed.

Pet shops provide a good means of education the public. Also, there are certain desirable traits in certain breeds. (NOT FIGHTING) These traits in a mutt are hit and miss. Thus, we have the choice of traits.

Not talking about puppy mills here by the way!

[DocTurtle]

As for PCSing and animal companion responsibility...hmmm... it is not so simple.

Agreed. It's not black and white when you say that if you PCS and leave your pet behind you're a monster. I think the points that you have covered so far are spot on and I once again could not agree with you more. Sometimes you just don't have a choice but to leave your pet behind, especially in places like Okinawa. But, like you said, if you do have to leave him or her behind, you better damn well find a good home for them.

So far so good. I'm looking forward to the rest of what you have. :)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Agreed. It's not black and white when you say that if you PCS and leave your pet behind you're a monster.

Look, you go to Japan Update Classifieds, and over the course of weeks, months, and years, you just see cr@p reasons for people giving up their pets as they PCS. It is a freakin damn shame, and these people should have some choice words reserved for them. I will not cut them any slack. And those are the ones who even bothered to list them. Imagine the many more who do not even go through that route.

I think it is very few who get pets here as a means to give the animals a "half-way" house before they PCS, and in fact, most get animals just because they want a pet -- i.e. the pet is valued for its utility to satisfy a particular craving for one's own self.

I do view those people pretty close to dregs of society, though not monsters, a term I'd reserve for human and animal torturers/abusers.

Yes, it is not black and white, but because I think the percentage of those who get animals for their own selfish reasons is quite high, I would say it is "near black and slightly off white." Surely is not a 50/50 gray area.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Pet shops provide a good means of education the public. Also, there are certain desirable traits in certain breeds. (NOT FIGHTING) These traits in a mutt are hit and miss. Thus, we have the choice of traits.

You see, Umi, you and I have a different worldview on breeds (not to mention pet shops as good educational centers). I view them as the parallel to breeding a perfect race, such as the once past goal of an aryan race that was meant to be pure with certain characteristics, not seen in the mixed races. Pure race, pedigree...hey...its all semantics.

Dog breeds for traits are based on utility. ARists reject that.

Not sure if you can watch Youtube vids at work, but this vid underscores racism and breedism and how they are viewed by ARists as parallels to one another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfCGFAMRodY

[Asshat]

You see, Umi, you and I have a different worldview on breeds (not to mention pet shops as good educational centers). I view them as the parallel to breeding a perfect race, such as the once past goal of an aryan race that was meant to be pure with certain characteristics, not seen in the mixed races. Pure race, pedigree...hey...its all semantics.

Dog breeds for traits are based on utility. ARists reject that.



I did not state my view on breeds, only pointed out that there were purposes or uses in breeds that many people find desirable. There are very few pure dogs left in the world as I am sure you know.

I don't think you have much experience with quality pet shops, if you can not see the value they provide the laymen with education on care and treatment of animals. I have seen my share of "puppy mills" and those are evil.

I am very fine with my views towards animals and nature and have done much to educate my fellow man, and help injured animals.

The difference between me and a self-proclaimed ARist is that I understand the relationship between humans and animals. ARists would like to blur that relationship by pretending certain natural laws do not exist.

Running down whales with zodiaks for a photo to impress my AR friends with is much less respectful than stopping and loading an injured dog into a vehicle and taking him to the vet to be fixed, then finding a home for him. For example. And I have many.

[DocTurtle]

Look, you go to Japan Update Classifieds, and over the course of weeks, months, and years, you just see cr@p reasons for people giving up their pets as they PCS. It is a freakin damn shame, and these people should have some choice words reserved for them. I will not cut them any slack. And those are the ones who even bothered to list them. Imagine the many more who do not even go through that route.

I think it is very few who get pets here as a means to give the animals a "half-way" house before they PCS, and in fact, most get animals just because they want a pet -- i.e. the pet is valued for its utility to satisfy a particular craving for one's own self.

I do view those people pretty close to dregs of society, though not monsters, a term I'd reserve for human and animal torturers/abusers.

Yes, it is not black and white, but because I think the percentage of those who get animals for their own selfish reasons is quite high, I would say it is "near black and slightly off white." Surely is not a 50/50 gray area.

Alright, so these are all good points and again I will agree with these. But umm...before this thread gets hijacked any more...can we go back to the actual point of this thread? What do ARist feel about adoption? Would they rather adopt kids or have some of their own? Are the views similar to those of pets? If you want to keep going with the pets and PCS part start a new one please. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the debate as much as the next, but this thread wasn't for the discussion of what people on Okinawa do with pets when they PCS or how they treat them. Thanks for staying on topic in advance. :thumbup:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Alright, so these are all good points and again I will agree with these. But umm...before this thread gets hijacked any more...can we go back to the actual point of this thread? ... If you want to keep going with the pets and PCS part start a new one please. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the debate as much as the next, but this thread wasn't for the discussion of what people on Okinawa do with pets when they PCS or how they treat them. Thanks for staying on topic in advance. :thumbup:

Sure, but I don't think the deviation was so far off that it was a "hijack." And, it was addressing points in your OP, but just had not gotten down to the points in your last para yet.

What do ARist feel about adoption? Would they rather adopt kids or have some of their own? Are the views similar to those of pets?

ARists are not all clones in their way of thinking on adoption, so I cannot really say there is an "official" AR position on adoption versus having your own children. Just like Republicans declare themselves the party of family values, there will still be those who consider themselves republicans and still get divorced, abortions, or have extramarital affairs.

On AR forums you will see this topic discussed and you will see different opinions on it. As for myself, I think one should adopt rather than have their own children. But then again, I am also for the voluntary extinction of homo rapeans (i.e. humans). But all my personal beliefs are not formal ARist policy or philosophy.

[DocTurtle]

Thanks. I didn't expect it to be cut and dry as far as the ARist stand on adoption vs breeding. What in life is? Thanks for the insight on this though.

"Hijack" probably wasn't the best word to choose, but is seemed that the thread was well on it's way in that direction. I was just hoping to get my question answered before we were 3-4 pages deep and the OP stopped getting read or was forgotten about. :D

Now when you say voluntary extinction, do you mean down to a certain # like in the "Perfect World" thread or to complete extinction?

I would have found it very hard for your personal beliefs to be any close to a formal ARist policy. While I believe that you agree with a lot of their policies, I don't think you are the type of person to be a lemming or sheep to everything they think, say, or believe.

Anywho, thanks for the reply. It was kinda what I expected as far as a response. But again, thanks. :thumbup:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Now when you say voluntary extinction, do you mean down to a certain # like in the "Perfect World" thread or to complete extinction?

Maybe this thread (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2333&highlight=extinction) discussion shows my opinion on it with detail and explanation. Not sure if you were a member when it was active, ever saw it, or posted in it. Perhaps you did. Anyway, follow the link to check it out and feel free to add something or reply to that thread to bring it up again.

[Maggie]

Look, you go to Japan Update Classifieds, and over the course of weeks, months, and years, you just see cr@p reasons for people giving up their pets as they PCS. It is a freakin damn shame, and these people should have some choice words reserved for them. I will not cut them any slack. And those are the ones who even bothered to list them. Imagine the many more who do not even go through that route.

I think it is very few who get pets here as a means to give the animals a "half-way" house before they PCS, and in fact, most get animals just because they want a pet -- i.e. the pet is valued for its utility to satisfy a particular craving for one's own self.

I do view those people pretty close to dregs of society, though not monsters, a term I'd reserve for human and animal torturers/abusers.

Yes, it is not black and white, but because I think the percentage of those who get animals for their own selfish reasons is quite high, I would say it is "near black and slightly off white." Surely is not a 50/50 gray area.

I'm going to come across as a hypocrite here, because I own three Doberman and five Border Collies, and I breed, work and show the Collies.
What I can say in my defence, is that I don't breed Doberman, they're all neutered. All my Collies stay with me for life, and I know where every puppy I've ever sold is. I breed the temperament I need for search dogs. Very friendly and highly motivated, and they earn their keep. I've had dogs which I've kept their whole life that have never been any use except as a much loved companion.

Pet shops go arm in arm with puppy Mills.

When I first started breeding, I would never sell to any army personnel, regardless of whether they were on their last posting, because they inevitably keep the dog until they're posted again, and they never seem to care what happens to it.

There's no need for that now. All my dogs here are pet pass-ported since they work abroad, and I've sold a number of dogs to serving personnel because they pass-port the dog and it travels with them.

Border Collies are one of the most common dogs to be brought and then neglected and dumped. One Man And His Dog made people think they were born ready trained. Convenient size, until they prove to be far too high energy for the average pet owner. The rescue homes here are full of farm bred dogs, which are almost impossible to re-home because they NEED to work.

Dogs have become a disposable accessory. Pet shops make it easy to make a spur of the moment decision. Pups are very endearing, usually un-inoculated with a high death rate. If they don't die, the novelty wears off pretty fast when the pup starts to demand attention and eat your home.

90% of the breeders here re-home (or dump) bitches once they can no longer breed from them, and these are top, well respected breeders, not puppy farmers. Dogs go through their hands like water. It looks good at six months, but wont make the grade at a year, so it has to go, cos it has to be replaced with the next hopeful winner.

I wont sell to show homes. I breed show quality dogs because I show myself, but I will only sell to permanent homes. Either pet homes or dog sport homes. Only on recommendation and after I've done a home check. That's the best I can do, and it's worked so far.

Dogs are part of your family, and if that isn't what you want, then you don't have the commitment to buy a dog. They are companion animals and need companionship and responsible care. Vet bills are astronomical so they need to be insured. Loads of dogs are dumped because they need medical care and their owners aren't willing (because they didn't bother to take sickness into account) or able to afford it.

Dogs get a pretty crappy deal. The life expectancy of a dog in the UK, taking into account all the dogs dumped, is eighteen months.

Rescue Societies do the best they can, but more dogs are euthanized than ever find a permanent home.

Maggie

[Maggie]

You see, Umi, you and I have a different worldview on breeds (not to mention pet shops as good educational centers). I view them as the parallel to breeding a perfect race, such as the once past goal of an aryan race that was meant to be pure with certain characteristics, not seen in the mixed races. Pure race, pedigree...hey...its all semantics.

Dog breeds for traits are based on utility. ARists reject that.

Not sure if you can watch Youtube vids at work, but this vid underscores racism and breedism and how they are viewed by ARists as parallels to one another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfCGFAMRodY

Oh Shite
I'll have to hang myself. I'm going to Crufts tomorrow with one of my dogs.

http://www.arnpriors.me.uk/arnpriors001003.jpg

It's a nice couple of days away from home, and I don't care if I win or not.

Maggie :)