Auto fuel efficiency????

[okisteve]

I just heard an interview on BBC radio. It was put to a spokesman for the Center for Automotive Research (Detroit "thinktank"/PR house) that if the USA were to adopt the same fuel efficiency standards as Europe, we would no longer need to import any oil!

I don't know how true this is, but presumably the BBC did some research. Anyway, the PR flack replied by saying:

a) Americans have always, and will always continue to demand big cars, and,
b) It would cost several thousand dollars per vehicle to incorporate materials and technology to make those big cars more fuel efficient.

With the Detroit Big 3 now the Big 2 (Chrysler is German-owned), this jerk is talking a recipe for Big Zero. That's my opinion - what's urs?

[Go-Shay]

unfortunately I would have to agree with him

[P_chan]

I agree with them as well. If americans would drive more fuel efficient cars, we would all be paying less for gas.

Of course, some people have to have their ford excursion or F350:rolleyes:

You know the ford excursion has a gas mileage rating of N/A!

[DougP]

I'm a little confused here but if the US were to adopt the same fuel efficiency standards as Europe, and would no longer need to import any oil why does Europe still have to? Why are their oil imports set to grow by 12.6 million bpd (an increase of 29%) by 2012? They do have a few oil producers. Four actually , Norway, the UK, Denmark and Italy.

Maybe there's more to it than cars and their fuel efficiency. Perhaps industry takes up a larger piece of the pie.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Yes Doug, but Europe is a continent, with a lot of countries. Though there has been a lot more economic cooperation lately with the creation and expansion of the EU, there is still the need for countries to compete for a limited supply of oil. And, Russia is one of the big suppliers, which may not always be good when politics get mixed in. The US doesn't have to share their oil with anyone, and gets special treatment from trading partners such as Canada and Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Kuwait.

[DougP]

Wouldn't that special treatment from trading partners such as Canada and Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Kuwait be considered imports? I just doubt, I mean seriously doubt the accuracy of that statement. Comparing America to Europe my not be exact but I haven't seen a model that suggests the European auto-fuel consumption standard has made such an impact in Europe that if applied in the US it would wipe out the necessity for oil imports. The fact that it hasn't put a dent in Europe's dependency on oil imports(which has increased) suggests otherwise. It would be more accurate to say "If the US were to adopt the same fuel efficiency standards as Europe it would significantly decrease the need for oil imports." Or at least it wouldn't be as far of a stretch.

[okisteve]

I'm a little confused here but if the US were to adopt the same fuel efficiency standards as Europe, and would no longer need to import any oil why does Europe still have to? Why are their oil imports set to grow by (TO) 12.6 million bpd (an increase of 29%) by 2012? They do have a few oil producers. Four actually , Norway, the UK, Denmark and Italy.

Maybe there's more to it than cars and their fuel efficiency. Perhaps industry takes up a larger piece of the pie.

Yep, it's complicated because there are importers and exporters in Europe. And I guess that article you found did not mention Russia either. Anyway, I think you misquoted it - their imports will increase TO 12.6 mbpd, not BY 12.6 mbpd. Also, their population is 460 million vs. what 300 million in the US?

The point I got from that broadcast and articles I have read is that the US consumes way more resources per capita than other areas. Europe, being the most developed and industrialized, is the fairest comparison, but it is also eye-opening when we compare our usage with the third world. You can say, well, but they are running on kerosene lamps and bicycles, but the truth is that China and India (2 billion people there) are heading in our direction, and if (when) they ever reach our level of desire for "stuff", there probably won't be enough to go around.

So that's why I don't think it is asking too much for American cars to get 30 mpg, or 40 mpg at some point in the foreseeable future. Difficult but not impossible, and certainly not unreasonable given the alternatives.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Are you saying Europe has a supply of oil equal to America's? I doubt it. Even if it did, there are have and have-not countries. It will not be divided equally. Naturally, the various countries will need to import more than America if they wish to have a comparable level of production/mobility.

[okisteve]

Wouldn't that special treatment from trading partners such as Canada and Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Kuwait be considered imports? I just doubt, I mean seriously doubt the accuracy of that statement. Comparing America to Europe my not be exact but I haven't seen a model that suggests the European auto-fuel consumption standard has made such an impact in Europe that if applied in the US it would wipe out the necessity for oil imports. The fact that it hasn't put a dent in Europe's dependency on oil imports(which has increased) suggests otherwise. It would be more accurate to say "If the US were to adopt the same fuel efficiency standards as Europe it would significantly decrease the need for oil imports." Or at least it wouldn't be as far of a stretch.

I said I just heard it said by the interviewer on BBC, and I would also like to see some verification, because it is quite a serious statement.

[DougP]

Your right, I put by instead of to.. Meant to put (TO) in there but was thinking ahead to the increase of 29% by 2012... well you can see what I'm talking about.:)

Also I'm not knocking on the reference to the fact that the US should get off their fat-I-want-a-big-car-and-has-cheeseburger-duffs and get with the program. They/we obviously should.
I just think the statement you referred to in the opening line was a "shock title" Obviously not your words, I know. But none the less it over inflated the outcome or result. "Do away with the need for oil imports" Well I doubt seriously that would happen without developing alternate fuel sources. And not just for automobiles. Industry/need for power etc are much bigger culprits than Jim-Bob's Chevy.

[DougP]

I said I just heard it said by the interviewer on BBC, and I would also like to see some verification, because it is quite a serious statement.

I know:thumbup1: I don't think you bought into it hook line and sinker either. But it is an eye opener of a statement.

[DougP]

Are you saying Europe has a supply of oil equal to America's? I doubt it. Even if it did, there are have and have-not countries. It will not be divided equally. Naturally, the various countries will need to import more than America if they wish to have a comparable level of production/mobility.

My point though was that regardless of what our(US) level of oil productivity is, what Europe's is.. changing(reducing) the level of fuel consumption in "vehicles" alone will not completely get rid of the need for import oil. Getting rid of our dependency for oil will do away with the need for import oil.:thumbup1:

[okisteve]

OK, here's the US official data--- http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

Basically, we consume 15 mbpd, of which about 10 million is imported and 5 is produced domestically.
68% of all our petroleum consumption, or 10.2 million barrels a day is used for transportation. It's not broken down but I think it's safe to assume that at least 80% if for personal cars and trucks, Say 8 million.
If fuel efficiency were doubled that would reduce it to 4 million and our imports from 10 million to 6 million, not zero, so some reporter was slightly off the wall.

Still, it's nothing to sneeze at. Other interesting stats: 2 mbpd comes from Canada, 5 mbpd from OPEC countries.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

So Doug, you'd rather not take the first step of fuel efficient vehicles?

[DougP]

So Doug, you'd rather not take the first step of fuel efficient vehicles?

Not sure what would make you think that.

Getting rid of our dependency for oil will do away with the need for import oil.
Also I'm not knocking on the reference to the fact that the US should get off their fat-I-want-a-big-car-and-has-cheeseburger-duffs and get with the program. They/we obviously should.

Looking at what I posted earlier I'd lean more towards wanting to take the first step toward a fuel efficient nation.. Fuel efficient vehicles would be that first step.:thumbup1:

[okisteve]

Well, anyhow, what really pissed me off about that interview was the mealymouthed PR guy obviously trying to prepare the public for the US auto companies lobbying Congress for the teensiest CAFE increase possible. What is the matter with those people? Didn't they learn anything from previous oil crunches? Why IS Toyota #1 in the US, anyway?

"Well, Steve (yes, that was the interviewer's name), there's something you need to understand - Americans are BIG people and our babies are even getting so fat that baby seats have had to be upsized. Also we have the WIDE OPEN SPACES that you poor Europeans don't have. So that's why we all need to drive Ford Explorers, etc. etc."

Did someone say CONDESCENDING?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Toyota #1, hmmm...cars that don't break down every year or 10,000 miles - whichever comes first.

[DougP]

Well, anyhow, what really pissed me off about that interview was the mealymouthed PR guy obviously trying to prepare the public for the US auto companies lobbying Congress for the teensiest CAFE increase possible. What is the matter with those people? Didn't they learn anything from previous oil crunches? Why IS Toyota #1 in the US, anyway?

"Well, Steve (yes, that was the interviewer's name), there's something you need to understand - Americans are BIG people and our babies are even getting so fat that baby seats have had to be upsized. Also we have the WIDE OPEN SPACES that you poor Europeans don't have. So that's why we all need to drive Ford Explorers, etc. etc."

Did someone say CONDESCENDING?

Wow the PR guy said that??:ohmy: What a(n)<insert insult>
:cursing: I sure hope he was fired. American car companies just don't get it. They have been thinking inside the ever shrinking box for decades now.:thumbdown:

[Go-Shay]

solar power baby

[okisteve]

Doug - I was paraphrasing. He didn't actually say "poor Europeans" but he did sound very smugly. (He did say that about the car seats though)

He's right though - we all agree Americans are BIG, as in fat. But has anyone been to Europe lately and looked at the Swedes or Germans or Dutch? They are big people but seem to manage OK in their cars.

[DougP]

He may not have said "poor Europeans" but I can just imagine the kind of condescending undertone he had an I'm sure he was anything but a model PR guy.

LOL@ the supersizing car seats.:D:D

[Go-Shay]

this is pretty cool
DETROIT--Toyota Motor Corp. said it will start selling hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles that can be recharged from the wall sockets of regular households by the end of 2010.

The company is expected to become the world's first automaker to launch plug-in hybrids commercially.

President Katsuaki Watanabe, who was attending the North American International Auto Show here, said Sunday that rent-a-car and taxi companies as well as government agencies are the initial target for such vehicles.

The automaker, which primarily targets the U.S. market, also plans to sell them in Europe and Japan.

Plug-in hybrids will be partly powered by a lithium-ion battery, which is more powerful than the nickel-metal hydride battery used in its Prius hybrids.

The lithium-ion battery is expected to enable vehicles to run for a longer distance on electricity alone.

When the lithium-ion battery becomes depleted or the vehicle accelerates quickly, the gasoline engine, or another power source, takes over.

Toyota has been testing the next-generation hybrids on highways in Japan, the United States and Europe since 2007.

The automaker is considering mass-producing lithium-ion batteries at Panasonic EV Energy Co.'s Omori plant in Kosai, Shizuoka Prefecture.

Panasonic EV Energy is a joint venture set up by Toyota and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. to develop and manufacture batteries for hybrid vehicles.

Watanabe also said it will launch a Tundra pickup truck and a Sequoia sports utility vehicle equipped with a new V8 clean-diesel engine in the United States in the near future.

The move reflects part of the company's efforts to push its commitment to curbing emissions of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases. It comes as the United States shifts to a tougher stance on emissions.

The existing Tundra and Sequoia models have been sold only in the United States.

Watanabe said that the company will unveil two new hybrid models, one under the Toyota brand and the other under the luxury Lexus line, at next year's auto show in Detroit.

The step is aimed at expanding the market for hybrids, where the automaker has enjoyed an edge over its U.S. rivals.(IHT/Asahi: January 16,2008) asahi.com (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200801160095.html)

[DoctorP]

solar power baby

Won't help you when it's raining though will it?

The hybrids are the right direction. I read this week where the big mfgs are looking at retrofits that can be added to older vehicles to get their consumption down. Not sure what the price range will be, but I'm sure it will be worthwhile!

[kombu_kid]

There's only so many miles a vehicle can squeeze out of a gallon of gas. I think once they get batteries evolved to a higher level, the electric cars with a backup generator will be the way to go. The hybrids in real-world driving conditions have come up a little short.

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2004/05/63413

What's really needed is a world-class mass transit system.....not the current ancient buses/low-capacity rail. Probably 85~90% of the multitude of daily commuters are in their cars alone......ridiculous in this day & age. Get them out of their cars, then the demand for gas/oil would really be lightened IMO.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

this is pretty cool
asahi.com (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200801160095.html)
Have you seen Who Killed The Electric Car? regarding the GM electrics? The technology was out there at least 10 years ago. Corporations run the world.

[Go-Shay]

Won't help you when it's raining though will it?

The hybrids are the right direction. I read this week where the big mfgs are looking at retrofits that can be added to older vehicles to get their consumption down. Not sure what the price range will be, but I'm sure it will be worthwhile!

ok solar power with plug in capabilities in case of rain?