Labeling soldiers with "Bad Attitude" when they speak out against stupidity

[TheNoNamedOne]

It goes like this:

Corporal Jones: All right everyone, off your rucks. Let's make a chain and get all these concertina stakes out of this conex box. Then get the conex box on this truck, and then make another chain to get the stakes back in the conex box.

C'mon everybody. Get up! I wanna see elbows and @ssholes moving!!

PFC Johnson: Corporal Jones, why don't we ask someone if they have a fork lift license, and have them use that fork lift right over there and get the whole box with stakes into the truck lickety split? That way everyone can keep resting on their rucks and it will take only a few guy.

Corporal Jones: You know what, Johnson? You have an attitude problem. Shut your hole and just get with the program. I know who my next mess duty volunteer is next month. That will help you with your attitude problem.

Now everyone, get up!!!

Haven't you seen something familiar like this before in the military? A lack of reasoning, flexibility, and then vindictiveness?

lol.

[Tony Stacks]

Well like the old saying goes if it makes sense the Marine Corps won't do it. lol

[DougP]

That scenario could play out in a few ways. Corporal Jones being the fine Corporal that he is might already have an in depth knowledge of his men and whether or not any of them are qualified to operate a fork lift. He might have played out all the viable options in his head and the chain gang might have been the best one. Although it could just be another case of not being able to think outside the box.

If it were me and PFC Johnson brought up this wonderful Idea that I had not thought of yet I would have taken it into consideration. I would have thanked the young PFC.

Me: Excellent idea Johnson! Who here has a fork lift license?
Lance Coolie Armstrong: I have have one:D
Me: Outstanding! Armstrong you will operate the fork lift and young PFC Johnson will be your ground guide. Everyone else get back to sitting on your rucks.:)

[TheNoNamedOne]

You sound like an Air Force guy, Doug. Yeah, I know you were in the Marines, but still...

[DougP]

:ohmy::scared: Marines?!:argh3::army: hehe actually Army but hey its all the same right:thumbup::D

[TheNoNamedOne]

You mean you had one of the limp covers that didn't stand up erect? I bet you rolled your cover down, didn't you? Ranger roll!

[DougP]

Um.. ah ok I no what you're referring to.:) I went Airborne early on during my time in. So instead I was one of those guys in a red beret. :D

[TheNoNamedOne]

Stand up buckle up and shuffle to the door...

[DougP]

Stand up "Hook up" and shuffle to the door.:D
heres an idea of what the sequence looks like. Without the old fatigues of course:)
YouTube - Airborne Operations Command Sequence
YouTube - ADT jump

[Go-Shay]

:ohmy::scared: Marines?!:argh3::army: hehe actually Army but hey its all the same right:thumbup::D

no brother not even close:army::army:

[DougP]

Hehe I realize that everyday here working on Hansen. Damn do they do everything different.:) Evey thing has a different name nomenclature etc.
SL3, Roach Coach, field days... :D

[retributionnk]

I don't think I've ever seen a situation play out as TP described, with someone having a good idea, and a superior says that it's a result of an attitude problem. Sounds far-fetched to me, but then again, I'm in the Air Force. I fly in planes for a living.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Sounds far-fetched to me, but then again, I'm in the Air Force. I fly in planes for a living.

Oh, I see. That explains it.

You need a whole new Marine green perspective to understand and see the things you've never seen.

[Asshat]

You need a whole new Marine green perspective to understand and see the things you've never seen.

Hmm. I did 22 years in the Great Green Gunclub and never experienced that. I too flew in planes for a living...so maybe that's the difference. We didn't paint rocks either. But someone sure as hell did.

[DocTurtle]

Sometimes it's done like that because someone got in trouble or people need to look busy, or sometimes someone just doesn't have the liscence for it and it's already been asked?

Although, I have seen this happen as well. That is what we call "poor leadership". Very common in the military.

Maybe it could have just been a misunderstanding though via the PFC's tone? If PFC Jones is the one guy who always puts up a stink about every little thing done, then this might be an expected response from the Cpl if the tone was of a complaining manner?

[retributionnk]

Oh, I see. That explains it.

You need a whole new Marine green perspective to understand and see the things you've never seen.

I was speaking in jest. And no, I don't need a 'Marine' perspective to explain things I've never seen. I simply avoid being put in situations where there's an idiot in charge, like the one in your story. And if for some reason I'm forced in to a situation like that, I'd do the 'right' thing and speak to the person in charge like a human being, telling him that I felt his actions were inappropriate. If he didn't respond kindly (as idiots are known for on occassion), I'd move up the chain. There's no reason to complain about something as simple as that. Just use a little bit of common courtesy to rectify the situation.

[ja_Patriot]

I wonder if there are officers or NCOs in this forum who can or would even care to respond to this OP from their perspective.

[Tony Stacks]

I wonder if there are officers or NCOs in this forum who can or would even care to respond to this OP from their perspective.



Well I responded and I was an NCO.

[ja_Patriot]

Active duty. One who has something at stake and who can give us an insight to decorum as to how it will affect personnel and the chain of command, not just gripes, innuendos and theoretical suppositions.

This OP is not in the Rant section.

[TheNoNamedOne]

This OP is not in the Rant section.

It's an observation concerning a different aspect of military life. It stays here. -- TP, moderator

[Muku]

Active duty. One who has something at stake and who can give us an insight to decorum as to how it will affect personnel and the chain of command, not just gripes, innuendos and theoretical suppositions.

This OP is not in the Rant section.
Even though it comes across as a rant:rolleyes:.

Stuff like this probably happened more back when, TP, moderator was in the military in comparison to today. Back in the time when people were drafted.:eek:


Who knows maybe he is speaking from his own experience and wants to hear opinions about how he handled the situation.

[DoctorP]

It didn't come across as a rant...just a question. The OP already came back and verified as much. Either answer the question, or feel free to stay out of the convo!

[DougP]

Active duty. One who has something at stake and who can give us an insight to decorum as to how it will affect personnel and the chain of command, not just gripes, innuendos and theoretical suppositions.

This OP is not in the Rant section.

I haven't even been out a year and I was an NCO as well. I don't feel as though I'm that "out of touch" to where I can't contribute to the OP.:)

[ja_Patriot]

It's an observation concerning a different aspect of military life. It stays here. -- TP, moderator

Fair enough.

Let me speak on behalf on my son who had so many choices but chose to sacrifice, train hard and is proud to be part of an organization which he reveres and respects.

Maybe moving the concertina & other stuff was part of the PT program for the day.

Maybe the unit was being trained for field conditions where forklifts weren’t going to be available.

Maybe the following day, the unit lifted logs or pulled a tank out of a ditch as a team exercise.

Maybe the OP was posted by an E who got busted in rank, perhaps several times, for being the unit’s loud mouthed prima donna, He’d probably fit the profile of a Scott Thomas Beauchamp, the Baghdad fablist. You’d know who he is, wouldn’t you?

[kombu_kid]

Maybe because the chain of command and order of the military is set to receive the order and act, not hem & haw and conduct a focus group or roundtable discussion on the matter at hand. Once the questioning of direct orders is allowed, it opens up a whole Pandora's box......that's not hard to imagine. Not a good thing in a wartime situation it would seem to me.

But a simple suggestion to make a task easier, simpler & quicker could also be taken as a shot to one's ego.....either by a sgt or a supervisor out in the "real world".......to accept the advice by a subordinate in front of others can sometimes appear to look like "why didn't YOU think of that?" This can sometimes look to "knock down a peg" that person in charge. I've seen it happen.

I've noticed over the years that suggestions need to be worded carefully.....so as not to appear to "diss" the person in charge.

[DoctorP]

I've seen scenarios like TP mentions. I can't believe everyone here says that it doesn't happen or that they've never seen it or even heard of it.

It may not happen often, but it does happen. Now what happens after the fact depends upon the make up of the supervisor in question. Is he/she strong enough of a person to take the correction by a subordinate or will they take offense to it?

[DocTurtle]

I wonder if there are officers or NCOs in this forum who can or would even care to respond to this OP from their perspective.
Active duty. One who has something at stake and who can give us an insight to decorum as to how it will affect personnel and the chain of command, not just gripes, innuendos and theoretical suppositions.
I already gave you my insite on this. E-5 typing :army: Skip my post or did it not answer your question?

[Muku]

First off I wrote....even though it comes off as a rant to me, that is MY opinion of the OP. We all make our own judgements and decisions.

Let's look at this a bit further.....the direct implication that there is "stupidity" in action, is where the "rants" view comes from imo.

Look at the OP again....dont know which branch of service this is pointing to but since it is written "generally" I will reply as such as well.

Just because there is or may be an "easier" way to get the job done may not have been the goal of the person in charge at the time either. There are going to be times and situations when people have to work together as a team to complete a mission, or meet a common goal, particularly in the military setting.

The Corporal may have wanted to see how his people work together as a team, and build a sense of comradiere amongst them to do a job together, work together. Because as everyone here can figure out when it comes time to go to war or when faced with a situation where "easier" is not an option people have to be able to know their buddies strong points and weaknesses as well.

It is not necessary either for an NCO or Officer to explain their decisions to their lower ranking personnel and in the military, in "this" situation as pointed out in the OP, no illegal order here, the lower ranking person does not have a "right" to question the orders of the person appointed above him. Even if he or she thought that the order was illegal, they "should" do the job first and then go through their chain of command with their grievance. And I am sure that the OP here knows that as well.

Sure it might make things go more smoothly for a person in command to explain their rational for their decisions, but the military is not a democracy and when and if it does become one, say goodbye to the US as we know it, because noone would ever do anything they were "ordered" to do.

Edited to add.....
Lastly a good leader does listen to suggestions and ideas from his or her subordinates, but it doesnt mean that he or she will take action on them either.

[DougP]

This is also common in the civilian sector as well so maybe its not just a military phenomenon.

[Muku]

This is also common in the civilian sector as well so maybe its not just a military phenomenon.

How true, yet in the civilian sector if it get's bad enough the "subordinate" always has the option of leaving the place of employment whenever they choose.

[Tony Stacks]

How true, yet in the civilian sector if it get's bad enough the "subordinate" always has the option of leaving the place of employment whenever they choose.


That's why I liked the military. Everything in the real world no matter how much it sucks is better than the military.

[Muku]

That's why I liked the military. Everything in the real world no matter how much it sucks is better than the military.

You liked the military because it sucked?:-|

[Tony Stacks]

You liked the military because it sucked?:-|

That and I love the ppl I've worked with and met along the way and being able to travel.

I like the fact that it makes the civilian world seem so much easier.

[DougP]

A bitching <insert branch member> is a happy <insert branch member>:D

[DocTurtle]

Amen DougP! Amen!

[Tony Stacks]

Yup Doug P hit it right on the nail.
It was always a love hate relationship with me and the USMC

[ja_Patriot]

That's why I liked the military. Everything in the real world no matter how much it sucks is better than the military.

Funny. You have a chip on your shoulder? Were you discharged?

[mikersoft]

Funny. You have a chip on your shoulder? Were you discharged?

All people leaving the military are discharged. ;) I know what you're asking though - if his discharge was anything other than honorable...

-Mike

[ja_Patriot]

All people leaving the military are discharged. ;) I know what you're asking though - if his discharge was anything other than honorable...

-Mike

As they say, if you can't be nice, try to be vague.

Here's the reason for that post:
http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3300

[DocTurtle]

No response Ja Patriot? :( Do you have me on ignore? How rude! j/k.
Military isn't for everyone, that's a fact. But if nothing else, hopefully Tony did his time and got out with an honorable.

[Bones]

I've always wondered why people who have left the Military after their first term , did so because they could not adapt to their new life style.

Was the Military to blame? Or did they get angry when they did something stupid, and were spanked for it?

It's an open question, not picking on anyone.

NBTP

[Tony Stacks]

Of course. I was a Cpl. I do exaggerate at times. It was just a love / hate relationship with me and the corps but in the end it just wasnt for me but I do hold a place in my heart for the military.

[Tony Stacks]

I've always wondered why people who have left the Military after their first term , did so because they could not adapt to their new life style.

Was the Military to blame? Or did they get angry when they did something stupid, and were spanked for it?

It's an open question, not picking on anyone.

NBTP

Exactly the 1st one.

[DocTurtle]

Often this is their first real job and many don't realize how good they have it. Once they are on the outside, they don't have that job lined up that their best friend had offered, they don't end up going to school like they planned, and a lot end up flipping burgers for a couple years or even back in the military...that is if they got out on good terms.

Also, what ruins it for people is 1 or 2 bad duty stations. I know a lot of Marines that once they came here, they swore they were going to get out. There are a good bunch of people, that Okinawa as a duty station is the killer of their career. Often it's just bad leadership that gets them IMO.

[retributionnk]

Also, what ruins it for people is 1 or 2 bad duty stations.

QFT!

I've heard it said many times about the military: "Your favorite duty station is the one you just left." The 'grass is always greener' mentality kills many careers.

[DocTurtle]

What does QFT stand for? PM me if needed :p

[TheNoNamedOne]

What does QFT stand for? PM me if needed :p

Quite Freakin True!

[Tony Stacks]

I've always wondered why people who have left the Military after their first term , did so because they could not adapt to their new life style.

Was the Military to blame? Or did they get angry when they did something stupid, and were spanked for it?

It's an open question, not picking on anyone.

NBTP


But than I could play devils advocate and ask if ppl that retire did it because they love the military or just for the ID card and theat they had nothing else.

No disrespect

i have the upmost respect for my fellow vets and active duty and even more respect for retirees for having the heart to stick it out for 20 or more.

Its just a question

[DocTurtle]

I think most retires realize that they have done what they can and it's time for them to move on and let someone who can do something more than they can take their place. Nothing worse than being stagnant! I also know a lot of retiree's that would have loved nothing more than to give another 20 years, but they also have to think of what more they have to offer.

[P_chan]

I agree with you DocTurtle on the bad duty station part. I hate kadena so much it makes me want to get out of the military some days. But then I realize the rest of the air force is not quite as retarded as kadena. Sure, I want to go back to school and bet my 4 year degree, but I might reenlist once the time comes.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I simply avoid being put in situations where there's an idiot in charge, like the one in your story.

Well, once you are in and you are assigned to units via orders, avoidance on your part is irrelevant. In fact it is moot. Generally speaking, you have no control over which unit you go to or the kind of people that will be there. Could be lots of idiots waiting to make your acquaintance.

And if for some reason I'm forced in to a situation like that, I'd do the 'right' thing and speak to the person in charge like a human being, telling him that I felt his actions were inappropriate.

And after he told you you had a bad attitude and that was a hint for you to shut up but you didn't register that hint and continued telling him what he did was inappropriate, you may just get yelled down or be the guard on duty at the armory over the weekend. 4 on -- 8 off. In other words, vindictiveness would be your attitude adjustor.

If he didn't respond kindly (as idiots are known for on occassion), I'd move up the chain.

Few go up the chain for these kinds of every day things that may be viewed as busy work or for being told to shut your hole and just do it. If you did do that then that would increase the image that you have a bad attitude. And if you made it a habit of going up the chain like this every time something like this happened, or requested mast over this, you'd soon become known as a sea lawyer or barracks lawyer.

There's no reason to complain about something as simple as that. Just use a little bit of common courtesy to rectify the situation.

I wouldn't assume that common sense would work with one without it. But it is always interesting to watch when a common sense lance coolie (doesn't mean he's smart) goes up against a dense corporal with very little common sense.

[retributionnk]

Well, once you are in and you are assigned to units via orders, avoidance on your part is irrelevant. In fact it is moot. Generally speaking, you have no control over which unit you go to or the kind of people that will be there. Could be lots of idiots waiting to make your acquaintance.

Your story doesn't bring up this situation at all. You are talking about someone being assigned a specific detail to accomplish. There are many ways to avoid matters like this. The first that comes to mind is, when you see that Cpl Hitler is in charge of a certain detail, volunteer for another one. Avoidance can take many shapes.

And after he told you you had a bad attitude and that was a hint for you to shut up but you didn't register that hint and continued telling him what he did was inappropriate, you may just get yelled down or be the guard on duty at the armory over the weekend. 4 on -- 8 off. In other words, vindictiveness would be your attitude adjustor.

I didn't say anything about pressing the issue after talking to him once. The outcome of this situation can probably also be attributed to the fact that the Marine Corps gives E-4s (probably under the age of 22) many responsibilities they probably shouldn't have (this is not always the case, but it's not the exception either).

Few go up the chain for these kinds of every day things that may be viewed as busy work or for being told to shut your hole and just do it. If you did do that then that would increase the image that you have a bad attitude. And if you made it a habit of going up the chain like this every time something like this happened, or requested mast over this, you'd soon become known as a sea lawyer or barracks lawyer.

It's obvious that few people go up the chain for injustices such as this, and it's mostly because of fear. It seems that all of the services have certain units that discourage use of the chain of command by putting them on this pedestal. You mentioned a 'bad image' as a result of going up the chain for something you thought to be wrong. That is one of the tactics used to put fear into the lower enlisted to discourage using their chain. The solution: keep going up, or if you're scared to do that, move laterally (i.e., if it's that bad, go to the Inspector General's Office).

I wouldn't assume that common sense would work with one without it. But it is always interesting to watch when a common sense lance coolie (doesn't mean he's smart) goes up against a dense corporal with very little common sense.

You're definitely right here, but common sense is the starting point. Confronting someone with an issue you have with them is almost always the quickest and easiest way to get it resolved. 9 times out of 10, the guy you're dealing with is merely having a bad day, and is probably not the extreme idiot you mentioned in your story. And yes, it is amusing to watch a situation like that play out, especially if the superior gives it to him good!

[Bones]

Originally posted by retributionnk:

You're definitely right here, but common sense is the starting point. Confronting someone with an issue you have with them is almost always the quickest and easiest way to get it resolved. 9 times out of 10, the guy you're dealing with is merely having a bad day, and is probably not the extreme idiot you mentioned in your story. And yes, it is amusing to watch a situation like that play out, especially if the superior gives it to him good!

You've made a very good point ret. It works both ways. When you issue an order, if you've been recently promoted, might cause some issues. Yesterday you were buddies, today you're the boss. So the person that you have issued the order to, might not be in a state of mind to carry out that order.

The best way to resolve such an issue, is in private. Instead of saying, no I'm not going to do this, say something like, can we talk privately?

Same goes for the supervisor. Let's have a talk. Walk away from your audience, discuss the issue, and move on from there.

If things progress that way, the issue may be resolved. It also builds respect.

Just because you have stripes, or shoulder boards, doesn't mean that you deserve respect. It has to be earned.

NBTP

[ja_Patriot]

Originally posted by retributionnk:

Just because you have stripes, or shoulder boards, doesn't mean that you deserve respect. It has to be earned.

NBTP

I didn't know that stripes or shoulder boards could be purchased.

I thought that you train hard, put up with the BS and earn them. and when you get them you have a responsibility to others and an obligation to yourself to lead. You go wishy-washy, you simply fail. There are no two ways about it, INHO.

[Tony Stacks]

I didn't know that stripes or shoulder boards could be purchased.

I thought that you train hard, put up with the BS and earn them. and when you get them you have a responsibility to others and an obligation to yourself to lead. You go wishy-washy, you simply fail. There are no two ways about it, INHO.


I think what he means is you want your ppl to respect you as a man not just the rank on your collar.

[DocTurtle]

Yesterday you were buddies, today you're the boss. So the person that you have issued the order to, might not be in a state of mind to carry out that order.
You couldn't have said it any better. It sometimes can be really hard when you friend get promoted and you don't and now you have to listen to every little thing he says.
Often, the best thing to do, is once you get promoted, is try to get that person into another office if possible. Somewhere with new faces so that they start with the respect of that rank instead of, that's still ole Lcpl Numbnuts to me. Often it can't happen, but it would be nice. Some people have trouble drawing the line between work is work and play is play. I know people who have lost friends like that actually.
Plus it's hard for the person who just picked up because they know they just got thrown into the mix basically and now they have to tell their friend what to do. Meh, it's always in interesting time if nothing else. But back to what you said, very well put bro.

The best way to resolve such an issue, is in private. Instead of saying, no I'm not going to do this, say something like, can we talk privately?

Same goes for the supervisor. Let's have a talk. Walk away from your audience, discuss the issue, and move on from there. Agreed. No need to get into a pissing contest in front of your peers. In the end it just builds up animosity and then people think at least one of you is being a jack arse.
Just because you have stripes, or shoulder boards, doesn't mean that you deserve respect. It has to be earned.
Amen!!! QFT!!!

[Just VP]

PFC Johnson: Corporal Jones, why don't we ask someone if they have a fork lift license, and have them use that fork lift right over there and get the whole box with stakes into the truck lickety split?

Let's have a little reality check on this scenario. Forklift licenses aren't just handed out to anyone who wants one. Typically Engineers, Motor T, Supply type MOS's require forklift licenses. Now if this (sqad, platoon) was one of the previous MOS's it would be a non issue. Now let's get that forklift. Most places a request has to go in at least 24 hours in advance for forklift support to the Logistics section then it gets forwarded from there to the section that actually owns the forklift. Now in a perfect world that request will make it's way to where it's supposed to go. In reality it'll get screwed up on the way and you'll see the forklift in 2-4 days.

Now this task which would have been finished in a couple hours, tops, will take quite a bit longer. PFC Schmuckatelly should just shut the hell up and do what he/she's told. More than likely PFC Schmuckatelly has been in the service 6-15 whopping months (for the Marine Corps) and knows jack and sh*t whereas the Cpl has a bit more time and experience to make the call on site. Just my 2 cents on this.

[DoctorP]

Just because someone has been in the service only 6 months, doesn't mean they don't know their stuff! I have seen 26yr old PFC's that were smarter and more experienced than SNCO's. One would be wise to know their people well, and use them to the best of their ability. That is what makes a good supervisor.

[ja_Patriot]

Age shouldn't matter. A good leader leads. Mission critical. I've provided leadership and management to men twice my age. You absorb criticism and learn from your mistakes like a man. When the underlings /PFC's turn comes, he'll either look at you as a role model or despise you. Either way, you need to come out as your own man, if nothing else, for your own benefit (and that of your family's and those who count on you).

[Just VP]

Just because someone has been in the service only 6 months, doesn't mean they don't know their stuff! I have seen 26yr old PFC's that were smarter and more experienced than SNCO's.

I've seen these too. They are extremely rare. I work communications, on occasion a PFC would come in with prior experience as a civilian and can do great things; but again it's rare.

Age shouldn't matter. A good leader leads. Mission critical.

I agree, age doesn't matter. Experience and the ability to lead does.