Do you care about Israel?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Would the world, or at least the Middle East, be safer if Israel were to disappear? Has support for Israel been beneficial for the U.S. in the overall scheme of things? I often find myself questioning if it has?

Is Israel any more legitimate than Taiwan?

What do you think? Should we continue supporting them, and if so, why? and under what consistant principles should we do so under?

I find the whole Israeli-Arab conflict to be quite an intriguing cluster -- but the fact can't be ignored, they displaced Arabs already living there when the victors of WW2 began redrawing borders and brought Israel into existence almost merely by decree.

As for Jews and a Jewish State, it was to be set up by the Messiah -- not man.

But, do you care, and would you care if the Israeli Army and population were all of a sudden overwhelmed and routed all the way to the Mediterranian to await Europe and the U.S. to evacuate them to safety?

[Boost]

Yes, I do care about Israel. Though there has been multiple shake ups in the history of the land in question, their right to exist predates even WW2. And with as strong willed and determined as they are, I don't see them losing their land any time soon. If you need a good example of strength and determination, I think they are a good candidate.

Also they are more US friendly then the other group there, so I tend to favor them for this as well. I like people who like us! :)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yes, I do care about Israel. Though there has been multiple shake ups in the history of the land in question, their right to exist predates even WW2.

You mean from Biblical times? Yikes! Is there no such thing as fait accompli?

Also they are more US friendly then the other group there, so I tend to favor them for this as well. I like people who like us! :)

Of course they like us because we have been supporting them. But, why should we support them?

They hurt us militarily and set the stage for China to become stronger and stronger and threaten our troops with more advanced weapons. That is not a very friendly thing to do to a friend.

Over the years, the United States and Israel have regularly discussed Israel's sale of sensitive security equipment and technology to various countries, especially China. Israel reportedly is China's second major arms supplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-United_States_relations#Military_sales_to_China), after Russia. ... U.S. administrations believe that such sales are potentially harmful to the security of U.S. forces in Asia. ...

In 2005, the U.S. Department of Defense was angered by Israel's agreement to upgrade Harpy Killer unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that it sold to China in 1999. China tested the weapon over the Taiwan Strait in 2004. The Department suspended technological cooperation with the Israeli Air Force on the future F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft as well as several other cooperative programs, held up shipments of some military equipment, and refused to communicate with Israeli Defense Ministry Director, General Amos Yaron, whom Pentagon officials believe misled them about the Harpy deal.

I trust my true friends to keep my secrets and to not help those that are or may soon be threatening me or my family.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Oh, how adorable and sweet! Sure is cute looking, huh?

Our friends, the Israelis and their army that we support, teaching tolerance (that which we like to think is a part of our values) of some sorts to their children by having them sign messages on munitions. Perhaps those love letters go something like this:

Dear Akbar,

BOOM!

Whit Love, your friend in peace, Heidi.

http://religiousliberal.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/shells-783956.jpg

http://www.informationliberation.com/files/192642681_c4903905bd_o.jpg






Got to love our friends on the cycle of violence ride, never knowing when or how to be the first to step off. Are these the lessons we teach our children and values we share?

Another question is, are those artillery shells produced in the U.S. and bought by Israel from military aid funds we provide to them? Deplorable.

[Asshat]

Quick answer, No! Our support of Israel is the cause of the current state of affairs. We can add a dose of Brittish colonialism, and UN ineffectivity to the mix, but our affair with Israel has not worked out well for us.

We trade technology with Israel all the time. They have pioneered a few items we now incorporate into the military industrial complex.

[Boost]

Quick answer, No! Our support of Israel is the cause of the current state of affairs. We can add a dose of Brittish colonialism, and UN ineffectivity to the mix, but our affair with Israel has not worked out well for us.

We trade technology with Israel all the time. They have pioneered a few items we now incorporate into the military industrial complex.

I don't believe that if we stopped supporting Israel, our current state of affairs would change much. I think it is just one more reason/excuse for those who hate us to hate us.

[dk]

It's a pretty big reason though.

[Boost]

At the moment I am inclined to think those that hate us, will hate us regardless of what policies we change. And unfortunately the list seems like it is pretty long.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Boost, I have noticed you haven't commented on Israel hurting us vis a vis supplying China with technology and arms, often our own technology. And that they seem to not be imparting tolerance to their own children -- a value we as Americans see as important and try to hold dear.

[Boost]

Boost, I have noticed you haven't commented on Israel hurting us vis a vis supplying China with technology and arms, often our own technology. And that they seem to not be imparting tolerance to their own children -- a value we as Americans see as important and try to hold dear.

To be honest I am not familiar with the China supply issue. But if what you are saying is true (not calling you a liar, just saying) then there needs to be some revision of our policy. We support them (Israel) and I would think gratitude would prevent you from suppling a country that isn't a big fan of the U.S.

As for the tolerance issue...I suppose it gets sticky when the tolerance thing isn't a two way street. It's difficult to tolerate those who do not tolerate you.

[TheNoNamedOne]

And that would lead us to ask, why should a government viewed as occupiers be tolerated by those who believe themselves to be occupied?

[TheNoNamedOne]

At the moment I am inclined to think those that hate us, will hate us regardless of what policies we change. And unfortunately the list seems like it is pretty long.

And why is this list so long? Perhaps from our past gunboat diplomacy and Banana Wars in Central and S. America for banana company interests?

Perhaps from restoring colonial rights to our allies after our victory in WW2?

Perhaps from backing dictators instead of peoples' movements?

Perhaps from thwarting elections of leaders that people wanted to lead them?

Perhaps from just drawing lines on the maps with victors from WW2 to decide borders without taking into cultural/tribal considerations and animosity between those groups for centuries?

Perhaps from hegemony which we need to exert because of our addiction to oil and the need to commute far distances from our idyllic suburban homes?

Perhaps from using others to fight proxy wars for us?

I think that long list of countries or people not liking us is there for some reason, and a look at history could give us a clue as to why.

[Boost]

And why is this list so long? Perhaps from...

Or perhaps, when speaking about the Muslim fundamentalist, it is simply because the Koran tells them too. America is rich in Christian heritage, something the fundamentalist take issue with.

1. Unbelievers are those who do not accept Islam, especially Jews and Christians:

To those who have received the Scriptures [Jews & Christians] and to the Gentiles say: 'Will you surrender yourselves to Allah?' If they become Muslims they shall be rightly guided; if they pay no heed, then your only duty is to warn them. God is watching all His servants.
Sura 3:20

2. Because unbelievers do not accept Islam, Allah hates them and does not guide them:

Say: 'Obey Allah and the Apostle.' If they pay no heed, then, surely, God does not love the unbelievers." Sura 3:32

You have a good example in Abraham and those who followed him. They said to their people: 'We disown you and the idols which you worship besides Allah. We renounce you: enmity and hate shall reign between us until you believe in Allah only.".... Sura 60:4

Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. Sura 5:51

3. Because Allah does not guide them, unbelievers beome evil-doers, they commit additional sins besides rejecting Islam:

You see many among them vie with one another in sin and wickedness and practise what is unlawful. Evil is what they do.
Why do their rabbis and divines not forbid them to blaspheme or to practise what is unlawful? Evil indeed are their doings.
Sura 5:62-63

4. Muslims will see the sins of unbelievers plainly, both in non-Muslim society and in dealings with non-Muslims:

They listen to falsehoods and practise what is unlawful. If they come to you [Muhammad], give them your judgment or avoid them. If you avoid them, they can in no way harm you; but if you do act as their judge, judge them with fairness. Allah loves those that deal justly.
But how will they come to you for judgment when they already have the Torah which enshrines God's own judgment? Soon after they will turn their backs: they are no true believers.
Sura 5:42-43

5. Therefore, Muslims must fight unbelievers both to limit sin and give unbelievers a chance to go to heaven by becoming Muslims. (Only Muslims can go to heaven, but Muslims are not assured of going to heaven unless they die in Jihad. Muslims who do not fight Jihad will have their good deeds weighed against their bad deeds. Refusing to fight Jihad is a very bad deed.)

Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them. For you must know that Allah is forgiving and merciful. 5:33-34

Let not the unbelievers think that We (Allah) prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them. Sura 3:178

Those that fled their homes or were expelled from them, and those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a recompense from Allah; Allah dispenses the richest recompense. 3:195

The bottom line is that Muslims hate the West because the Koran tells Muslims that the West rejects Islam, and consequently is evil.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Boost, I sure won't disagree with you that scripture from Islamic Holy Books are a factor, but it is not the ONLY factor. If it were the only factor then why didn't we see this kind of targeting of U.S. interests and their citizens prior to the creation of Israel?

Iran is having a good relationship with other infidel nations -- such as Venezuela.

Also that still doesn't account for wide parts of the Central and South America where we are not looked very well upon.

U.S. policy, inconsistant application and pushing of our principles, and meddling in internal affairs of other nations are probably the bigger reasons for dislike of the U.S.

If a man living in a house at random different times of days ran out of his house and yelled at some kids for whatever reason (justified or not), but never yelled at a few others, e.g. for perhaps being a little noisy, stepping on his lawn, throwing a ball in his yard etc..., but then exceptionally kind to some of the kids e.g. bringing them lemonade, commenting them kindly, giving them snaks, etc... then I assure you that man is going to be targeted for toilet papering his house and egging when these kids get a little older, stronger, and braver.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I have to wonder if Israel puts itself in a position of good faith when it comes to trying to promote peace -- particularly when they know that the US gets egg on its face by some of their activities and stubbornness. Surely they know that continuing to build settlements is not the road of good faith to pursue for peace with Palestinians. But yet, they do so:

Israel settlement growth an "impediment": Bush (http://www.reuters.com/article/sphereNews/idUSN0324019320080103?sp=true&view=sphere)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush on Thursday called Israeli settlement expansion an "impediment" to revived peace efforts in rare criticism of the Jewish state less than a week before his first presidential visit there. ...

"I will talk about Israeli settlement expansion, about how that is, that can be, you know, an impediment to success," he said. "The unauthorized outposts for example need to be dismantled, like the Israelis said they would do."

Palestinian officials welcomed Bush's swipe at Israeli settlement building.