Caning as a form of punishment for crimes: Would you support it?

[TheNoNamedOne]

In Singapore and a few other areas (I think), caning of criminals is an acceptable form of punishment. I've gone back and forth on this concerning my own opinion about it. Perhaps it is the public aspect of it that some countries have in association with it that I agree with. I certainly do believe in public shaming for crimes. But should caning, not much different than flogging, be a form of punishment?

Hangings used to be public, and in the U.S. there would be a festive atmosphere about it, perhaps not so unlike the frenzied atmosphere we see with stonings that still take place in some areas.

Do you think public canings, if they were to be adopted by either Japan or the U.S., would help in deterring crime -- if not first time offenders, then at least repeat offenders? After all, memory of a horrific time of pain could make one think twice before committing a crime again. Or perhaps it is just about punishment, and deterrence should not be the overriding issue?

Or do you think such countries who do canings are backward in their legal codes for resorting to such a thing, and that it is a violation of human rights?

Would you support caning for criminals? So that we do not get bogged down on the "it depends on the crime" point, let's just say the crime is of rape or worse, and remember -- no legal system with judge or jury is ever safe from convicting an innocent person.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_03/caningDM0108_468x344.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Caning_Malaysia.jpg/250px-Caning_Malaysia.jpg
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_03/caningDM0108_228x236.jpg
Canings in Malaysia and result

Accompanying story here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=472442&in_page_id=1811).


http://www.indonesiamatters.com/images/aceh-caning-1.jpg
Aceh, Indonesia; after a caning

[ststephen65]

100% yes! altho the punishment would have to fit the crime. should you be caned for breaking a law that isnt hurting someone else? take smoking a joint in the privacy of your own home for example, of course not. should you be caned for robbing a store? well maybe.

[Tony Stacks]

I agree with Stephen65 for serious crimes like rape, child molestation, murder, other serious crimes eg:;the Marines that attacked that taxi drivers YES.

Now for smoking weed, speeding or a bar fight no.

[DocTurtle]

lol...not at the act, but at the fact I read it as can-ing, not cane-ing. I was wondering what caning was...like stoning but with sop cans? I wonder if they would use full or empty. Hmmm...interesting! :D

[okisteve]

I agree with Stephen65 for serious crimes like rape, child molestation, murder, other serious crimes eg:;the Marines that attacked that taxi drivers YES.

Now for smoking weed, speeding or a bar fight no.

Tony - there's something suspicious about your choice of exempted crimes:crying:

I would not support caning as a form of judicial punishment, and I was really surprised that Singapore still uses it since they are otherwise an advanced country.

[Tony Stacks]

Well I smoked weed back in high school, gotten a couple speeding tickets and broke up a few bar fights ( luckly never had one of my own knock on wood) anyway I think these are things that are not that bad.

[swindland]

Looking at the photos is making my ass hurt and back ache. I think these type of punishment should be done in serious crimes like murder, rape, and so on.

[P_chan]

Well, to be fair, seeing that heinous crimes such as rape cause psychological damage to the victim, quite possible for the rest of their lives. The convicted should receive daily canings. After all, the victim has to deal with the trauma every day of their life after the incident. So why not punish the criminal everyday for the rest of his/her life?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Looking at the photos is making my ass hurt and back ache. I think these type of punishment should be done in serious crimes like murder, rape, and so on.

If you click on to the link above in the OP, it will take you to the story and the video at Livelink so you can actually watch it and hear the cane whizzzing through the air and the guy's screams. About 8 or 9 minutes of 20 hits. You really see the flesh peel off little by little.

Seems to be done in a very professional manner -- I guess by caning standards.

Have you guys who have commented in this thread thus far watched the video? If not, I suggest you do.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

TP, could you show us some crime stats to go along with the method of punishment/justice? Do countries/states with the death penalty, for instance, have lower crime rates than those without. It would help to see what the crime rates in places using corporal punishment is versus those that don't use it.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://www.iht.com/articles/1994/04/20/edbow_2.php

A few excepts from this interesting op-ed piece...

But foreigners might be excused for being unaware that behind Singapore's clean, green, efficient, well- ordered image is a system which rules, I think, as much by fear as by example. Nor is it exceptionally crime-free as a result of often draconian punishments. Certainly, and especially for expatriates and middle- class Singaporeans, life is generally safe and officials are uncorrupt. But the background of strong-arm tactics is clear enough.

There are some 1,000 canings a year, according to official figures as cited by The Straits Times. Judging by available statistics, Singapore has had, over the years, the highest prison population per head of population in developed Asia.

It detains without trial (according to the then home affairs minister, S. Jayakumar, in 1992) a thousand alleged "hard-core gangsters" - in a population of just 2.8 million. It makes use of the death penalty against drug runners even of low rank. In many instances sentences are mandatory, giving judges little discretion in evaluating degree of seriousness.

Despite all these stringent laws, Singapore is not extraordinarily crime-free. It may be compared to big U.S. cities but not to many other Asian countries and much of Europe. For example, both its homicide rate and its overall crime rate are on a par with supposedly freewheeling Hong Kong. According to United Nations figures, it has far more murders per head than Australia or South Korea, both highly urbanized soceties.


Its robbery incidence is half that of Hong Kong. It is far ahead of Japan on all crime counts. Japan, interestingly, has a low crime rate despite its degree of urbanization, and is lenient toward minor offenders.

[DougP]

I've seen those videos a few times and have seen some fierce examples of corporal punishment in person. I would support this as a form of punishment. That is, if the shoe fits.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP, could you show us some crime stats to go along with the method of punishment/justice?

I don't have the stats, E. Though, I am pretty sure that corporal punishment has been shown to not be correlated with lowering crime, either by deterrence or by recurring crime in offenders (I think I have seen stats in the past that showed no correlation -- and perhaps the opposite in deterrence).

I tend to think that most criminals have the chance of getting caught as the last thing on their minds when they commit a crime i.e. they think they will get away with it.

This is why in the OP I am wondering if perhaps it should be done just out of punishment. Like I said, though, I have gone back and forth on this opinion and really couldn't defend for it or against it. A good argument on either side could sway me, and I would only probably take a Devil's advocate against either side just to ask some pointed questions to get the info that would make me make up my mind on it.

I did find your 2nd post with your quote and link to an article in this thread interesting. If I find anything on either side of the issue I think is interesting or relevant I will be sure to post it.

[ststephen65]

now correct me if im wrong but when that american kid got his ass whooped over in sing, didnt they use some sort of thin cover over his ass so it didnt actually break skin?

by the way, that shit was awsome, seeing him get his ass whooped for being a dumbass

[Ammoyankee]

The first time I went to Saudi and heard about the beheadings occurring on Fridays at "chop-chop" square for murderers, rapists and drug trafficers, I always thought it would be fitting for us to send some of ours over on a scared straight trip and make them watch.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm

Required reading for pundits:


INTRODUCTION
Judicial corporal punishment by caning is in widespread use for males in Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei, three adjacent and closely linked members of the British Commonwealth in South-East Asia.

This is an account of its use and application. The information comes from official documents, newspaper articles, books, and other freely available publications.

The descriptions of caning and its effects are from eyewitnesses including prison staff, and from accounts of men who have been caned.
Thousands of canings are ordered each year.

Men are caned not only for serious crimes but also for non-violent offences like illegal entry and vandalism.

In some cases this is a mandatory punishment.
These canings are very severe and are criticised by such organisations as Amnesty International.

Caning in all three countries is administered across the bare seat.
The prisoner is stripped naked and shackled by strong leather straps to a trestle or A-frame. In Singapore and Brunei he is held down in a bent-over position with his buttocks protruding. In Malaysia he stands upright at the A-frame to which he is tied.

He is then punished by a well-built warder wielding a flexible four-foot long length of rattan which has been soaked in water.

HUMILIATION AND DETERRENCE
Judicial caning is clearly intended to be a humiliating experience. Former Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, founding father of modern Singapore, introducing mandatory caning for vandalism in 1966, told Parliament:
"[...] if (the offender) knows he is going to get three of the best, I think he will lose a great deal of enthusiasm, because there is little glory attached to the rather humiliating experience of having to be caned." (Lee, now Minister Mentor, always seems to refer to the subject in this oddly juvenile vein -- "three of the best", and so on -- as if to suggest, though he surely cannot seriously believe, that the punishments in question are somehow equivalent to the headmaster's canings he received as a schoolboy at Raffles College in the 1930s, which he mentions in his memoirs.)

In fact, the severity and humiliation of the punishment are widely publicised: compulsory prison visits for juvenile delinquents include viewing what newspapers have described as a film of the execution of the punishment (though it is not known whether such a film really exists) as well as a real-life demonstration by a warder on a dummy.

Caning is greatly feared by men who face it. One newspaper article stated: "In the Singapore context, caning is the most dreaded form of punishment. If proof be needed, I need only recall the very many instances when young and middle-aged offenders, under caning orders, begged the Appeal Court in vain to suspend them and give longer prison terms instead. (But) until Parliament changes the law, there is nothing that can be done" ("Caning -- the most dreaded punishment (http://www.corpun.com/sgju7409.htm)", by T.F. Hwang, Straits Times, 7 September 1974).

There is, indeed, very little sympathy expressed towards those being caned. A writer from the National University of Singapore defended the punishment:

"[...] it is a part of the law that most Singaporeans are glad to give their support [...] the purpose of caning is to inflict pain. For this purpose, the safest place to cane is really the buttock, and none other [...] According to accounts given by people who have been caned, they suffered immense pain during the caning, and would not be able to sit or lie down on their buttocks for many days, even up to two weeks. And the surface of the skin may split open during the caning. That's all! The result of caning is a lasting mark on their buttocks. This serves a lasting educational purpose; they will always be reminded not to commit the offence again!"


Read the rest for all this...

CONTENTS:
Introduction (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#intro)
The history of caning in Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#history)
Offences for which caning is imposed (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#offences)
Who is liable to caning (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#liable)
Frequency (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#frequency)
How many strokes are given (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#howmanystrokes)
The dimensions of the cane (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#dimensions)
Apparatus used (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#apparatus)
Medical examination (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#medical)
Caning sessions in prison (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#sessions)
Inside the caning room (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#inside)
The ceremony (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#ceremony)
The caning officers (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#officers)
Procedure in detail (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#procedure)
Immediate physical effects (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#effects)
Reaction of the prisoner to the caning (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#reaction)
Descriptions of the experience (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#experience)
Medical treatment (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#treatment)
The healing of the wounds (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#healing)
Humiliation and deterrence (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#humiliation)
Some differences between Singapore and Malaysia (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#differences)

[okisteve]

now correct me if im wrong but when that american kid got his ass whooped over in sing, didnt they use some sort of thin cover over his ass so it didnt actually break skin?

by the way, that shit was awsome, seeing him get his ass whooped for being a dumbass

Would you be just as enthusiastic if it had been your own son? Just asking...

[Tony Stacks]

Would you be just as enthusiastic if it had been your own son? Just asking...


Well it's better them do it than me.

[Tony Stacks]

http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm

Required reading for pundits:



Read the rest for all this...

CONTENTS:
Introduction (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#intro)
The history of caning in Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#history)
Offences for which caning is imposed (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#offences)
Who is liable to caning (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#liable)
Frequency (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#frequency)
How many strokes are given (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#howmanystrokes)
The dimensions of the cane (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#dimensions)
Apparatus used (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#apparatus)
Medical examination (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#medical)
Caning sessions in prison (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#sessions)
Inside the caning room (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#inside)
The ceremony (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#ceremony)
The caning officers (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#officers)
Procedure in detail (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#procedure)
Immediate physical effects (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#effects)
Reaction of the prisoner to the caning (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#reaction)
Descriptions of the experience (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#experience)
Medical treatment (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#treatment)
The healing of the wounds (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#healing)
Humiliation and deterrence (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#humiliation)
Some differences between Singapore and Malaysia (http://www.corpun.com/singfeat.htm#differences)


I think it's BS that the females don't get the same punishment!!

[Go-Shay]

great idea and it would save money by limiting the prison population

[Go-Shay]

Would you be just as enthusiastic if it had been your own son? Just asking...
yes, if he makes a bad choice than there will be a bad outcome

[okisteve]

So, you'd be absolutely OK with seeing his butt ripped open if he sprayed a car? You realize that there are other forms of punishment, right?

[TheNoNamedOne]

And whenever you are talking about exposing raw flesh to air from a beating, there is the real chance for infections and overall health worsening from that.

That said, for serious crimes, I am still not convinced that it should not be used as punishment (not as an argument for deterring crime [though I wonder about maybe it would be good for bozozokus]).

Steve, what if other methods of punishment did not dissuade a person from vandalism and that person was a habitual repeat offender? LIke I said, I am still on the fence about this and am just trying to hear some more good points from others.

[DougP]

So, you'd be absolutely OK with seeing his butt ripped open if he sprayed a car? You realize that there are other forms of punishment, right?

And people who commit crimes usually realize there's another alternative. That alternative of course is to not commit crimes. I don't see caning to be any worse or more barbaric than spending 5 to 10 in a small cell. That "street artist"
you're referring to wouldn't have gotten his butt caned if he had learned the law of the land and not committed said crime. Ignoring rules, blatant acts of stupidity, and plain old lack of common sense can get someone in a world of trouble. Be it with the law or someone else. It can also result in something far worse than getting whipped, and that would be death.

[okisteve]

And whenever you are talking about exposing raw flesh to air from a beating, there is the real chance for infections and overall health worsening from that.

That said, for serious crimes, I am still not convinced that it should not be used as punishment (not as an argument for deterring crime [though I wonder about maybe it would be good for bozozokus]).

Steve, what if other methods of punishment did not dissuade a person from vandalism and that person was a habitual repeat offender? LIke I said, I am still on the fence about this and am just trying to hear some more good points from others.

Was he a repeat offender, TP? If not I understand that a month or so in jail is a very unfun experience that probably would get the lesson taught. And even if he was, I think the caning is out of proportion to the crime. Whose car was it, anyway? Maybe some government official.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I am not sure about that boy. I was just asking the question in general. Sure, I think a repeat offender for spray painting something is not deserving of caning.

How would you feel about a repeat offender that was a bozozoku that continuously put the safety of other drivers and pedestrians in jeopardy? Think of all the money it would take to incarcerate them for years over and over and that they may be sorely unrepentent. I am wondering if a caning is appropriate punishment for a repeat offender in such a case as reckless endangerment.

I imagine that a repeat bozozoku would become quite repentent after the first 5 lashings out of the 20 that he may be sentenced to.

Perhaps, since Okinawa is geographically isolated from mainland as it regards in general to vehicles, if it would not make a good case study in applying caning to bozozokus to see if it has an impact on their numbers. ???

[okisteve]

I would prefer more direct action (example would be an icepick through a tire), but in their case, what is the exact judicial procedure? Don't they have to be convicted of something more than being annoying before they are given a lethal injection of whatever?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

In regards to the bosozoku, I've never seen the police catch them, though I've witnessed many a "chase"...if you call following in a single patrol car with siren wailing and the loudspeaker crap "Stop please, the bike in front stop please. Stop please." Pretty tough to dish out any justice if you don't have the will to apprehend them in the first place.

[Go-Shay]

In regards to the bosozoku, I've never seen the police catch them, though I've witnessed many a "chase"...if you call following in a single patrol car with siren wailing and the loudspeaker crap "Stop please, the bike in front stop please. Stop please." Pretty tough to dish out any justice if you don't have the will to apprehend them in the first place.
actually there are quite a few of the bozo's that become cops. the ones that drive motorcycles:thumbup:

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

What's your source on that?

[Go-Shay]

So, you'd be absolutely OK with seeing his butt ripped open if he sprayed a car? You realize that there are other forms of punishment, right?
well someone needs to try out these other forms of punishment because judging by the over crowding in prisons what is being done now is not working. If you knowing break a law you deserve what you get.

[DoctorP]

I would be all for caning. But it would have to be carried out/dished out in a manner appropriate to the crime. Tagging would not warrant open flesh wounds, but murder and rape definitely would!

Another thing...if the person were caught in the act...then the punishment should be handed down immediately. No waiting 2 weeks, 6 months, a year for judicial proceedings. And if it is a child, perhaps the parents should be required to dish out the punishment?

Would you be just as enthusiastic if it had been your own son? Just asking...

I would! I have done my best to teach my kids wrong from right, and about consequences of actions. If I didn't do a good enough job, then perhaps this would help. (but I am also ok with spanking)

[DougP]

Was he a repeat offender, TP? If not I understand that a month or so in jail is a very unfun experience that probably would get the lesson taught. And even if he was, I think the caning is out of proportion to the crime. Whose car was it, anyway? Maybe some government official.

I'd be willing to bet he was a repeat offender. Maybe that was the first time he had been caught by police but I doubt that was the first time he had ever tagged anything. First offense usually means first time getting caught.

[okisteve]

I'd be willing to bet he was a repeat offender. Maybe that was the first time he had been caught by police but I doubt that was the first time he had ever tagged anything. First offense usually means first time getting caught.
That's what I meant Doug. If it was his first time convicted of whatever the offense is officially, it seems to me that punishment is all the more harsh.

[Asshat]

In Singapore, the canee is checked by a doctor after each lash. In most occasions, the doctor decrees the canee injured, and he is put into hospital to heal. He is then canned again, hospitalized, etc. until the punishment is meted out.

Remember that this is a country which puts teenage girls to death for smuggling in a bit of marijuana.

I don't have a problem with caning because it seems to work for Singapore.

Note that comparisons of countries who use varying kinds of punishment is not an accurate way to rate the effectiveness of that punishment.

The ethnic and moral values of a place must also be taken into consideration. Just a 100 years ago, Singapore was a swampy place infested with pirates, cut-throats, thieves, and the otherwise dregs of Asia.

Maybe there will be a time when corporal punishment is no longer prefered, but I can certainly see benefits to it.

[DougP]

That's what I meant Doug. If it was his first time convicted of whatever the offense is officially, it seems to me that punishment is all the more harsh.

But that's also what I'm saying though. Just because its the first time he's been "caught" doesn't mean he hasn't been doing it for sometime and definitely doesn't mean he's entitled to a lesser sentence. Now perhaps splitting flesh is a bit too harsh for spray painting a car but then again he didn't have to break the law. Understading the local laws, customs and such can go a long way. It can keep a teenager's butt from getting caned.:thumbup1:

More or less though I see what you're saying. He probably could have been scared into obeying the law some other way. Guess he should have read the memo that stuff like that will not fly in Singapore.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

It's no secret Singapore uses caning as a means of punishment for convicted criminals, and that punishments tend to be very severe by Western standards for relatively minor crimes. Those caught and punished there have no one to blame but themselves.

[Go-Shay]

It's no secret Singapore uses caning as a means of punishment for convicted criminals, and that punishments tend to be very severe by Western standards for relatively minor crimes. Those caught and punished there have no one to blame but themselves.
severe yes but I think given the choice of not being able to sit or walk straight for a couple of months or 10 to 15 years locked up, I would choose to be beat. Pain is only temporary regardless of how severe it may be