Japan's Population Crisis

[TheNoNamedOne]

Japan's population is decreasing rapidly. The government has been worried about this and has been thinking of ways to stop it from doing so and to get it growing again. This will invariably involve subsidies to married couples to encourage them to have more children e.g. cash payment per month per child, paid child care, education vouchers, more tax deductions or possibly reductions, etc...

I am against this. I support a decline in the population of Japan to pre WW2 levels. I think a population about half of what is here now, bringing it down to 50 to 60 million, would allow for more recources per person, such as land space, and that would increase quality of life. Of course, the transformation would be painful in the beginning as the economy adjusts, but I think in the long run, a smaller population would allow for a better quality of life and positive impact upon the ecology, as stresses from human populated areas stop pushing into the last parts of Japan's natural areas and population centers ultimately rolled back to some significant degree.

What do you think about Japan's population problem, and what would you recommend Japan do to address that and move it in the direction you think it should go?

[Bones]

Note to self: Be kind and gentle with your response.

Yeah, I have a response.

Uh, what????? :confused:

NBTP

]

[Bones]

Japan's population is decreasing rapidly. The government has been worried about this and has been thinking of ways to stop it from doing so and to get it growing again. This will invariably involve subsidies to married couples to encourage them to have more children e.g. cash payment per month per child, paid child care, education vouchers, more tax deductions or possibly reductions, etc...

I am against this. I support a decline in the population of Japan to pre WW2 levels. I think a population about half of what is here now, bringing it down to 50 to 60 million, would allow for more recources per person, such as land space, and that would increase quality of life. Of course, the transformation would be painful in the beginning as the economy adjusts, but I think in the long run, a smaller population would allow for a better quality of life and positive impact upon the ecology, as stresses from human populated areas stop pushing into the last parts of Japan's natural areas and population centers ultimately rolled back to some significant degree.

What do you think about Japan's population problem, and what would you recommend Japan do to address that and move it in the direction you think it should go?

I'm less concerned with Japan's population decrease, than I am with the content of your post.

Prosecutor, this is probably one of the dumbest postings that I've ever encountered.

Yes, by reducing the amount of Japan's current population, there would be more living-space per person. I assume that you mean that the infrastructure already in place, would be torn down and used as landfill material?

Even so, once you get the country's population down to your proposed levels, and you reclaim the land for parks and trees, extra living spaces for individuals, etc....

Once your new economy stabilizes, don't you think that the whole process will start over again?

Our biggest enemy in the world, is greed. Be it political power, money, keeping-up with the Jones's, it all boils down to greed.

Looking forward to your response. Thanks in advance.

Sheesh!!!!

[TheNoNamedOne]

Looking forward to your response. Thanks in advance.

Sheesh!!!!

And I am looking forward to giving it, but why do you think calling a post, " one of the dumbest postings that I've ever encountered" is going to encourage anyone to reply, let alone if they do, with civility and courtesy?

Prosecutor, this is probably one of the dumbest postings that I've ever encountered.

Anyway, I assure you that I will try to exercise more discipline on my side and not call your posts the "dumbest posting I've ever encountered" even if I do believe so.

Moving to the reply you are awaiting...

Yes, by reducing the amount of Japan's current population, there would be more living-space per person. I assume that you mean that the infrastructure already in place, would be torn down and used as landfill material?

Things can be torn down and reversed, yes. However, it would be a very slow process. Look at Florida -- the infrastructure of the canals that have diverted water from Lake Okeechovi (sp?) and the seepage toward the everglades by the Corp of Engineers decades ago, is now being torn down and restored to a more natural state.

Even so, once you get the country's population down to your proposed levels, and you reclaim the land for parks and trees, extra living spaces for individuals, etc....

Once your new economy stabilizes, don't you think that the whole process will start over again?

It could, but the possibility of something occurring does not necessitate that it will do so.

Our biggest enemy in the world, is greed. Be it political power, money, keeping-up with the Jones's, it all boils down to greed.

And short of every individual having an epiphany and becoming enlightened so that they no longer exercise that greed, strong laws and incentives to affect social cohesiveness and to keep us in balance with our ecology are needed.

Your turn.

[Bones]

Ok, Mr.Prosecutor.

For "civilities" sake, let me change the label from "dumbest", to "most disturbing".

Will that work for you?

Before getting back your original posting, I would like to clarify a few things. You are a tree hugger, and I certainly respect that. More trees, more free space = a good thing. Ok, let's get to work.

While it's true that Japan, is actually experiencing a population crisis, this is what disturbs me the most about your post. In the second paragraph you stated:

I am against this.I support a decline in the population of Japan to pre WW2 levels. I think that a population of 50 to 60 million, would allow for more resources per person, such as land space, and that would increase the quality of life.

The CIA's World Fact Book, estimates that Japan's population stands at 127,433,494 people, a rough estimate for July, of 2007. The Statistics Bureau & Statistical Research an Training Institute, estimates a population figure of 127.76 million people. So you are proposing the elimination of roughly 66-77 million people, so that everyone else can have a park to walk around in. Am I right so far?

If I am, and I really am trying to be courteous here, how would you propose such a reduction could be accomplished?

In your response to my reply to you yesterday, you offered up this little tid-bit:

Things can be torn down and reversed, yes. However, it would be a slow process. Look at Florida --the infrastructure of the canals that have diverted water from Lake Okeechovi (sp?) and the seepage toward the everglades by the Corp of Engineers decades ago, is now being torn down and restored to a more natural state.

True enough, and if we get a few Hurricanes, or even some significant rainfall in that area, their goal will eventually be realized. A canal takes almost no time destroy, and does not require the eradication of almost 67-77 million people, or the infrastructure left behind from their departure. That would not only require a lot of time, it would also significantly increase the carbon footprint within Japan, and would allow less desirable elements to move into the deserted properties.

Your final quote:

And short of every individual having an epiphany and becoming enlightened so that they no longer exercise that greed, strong laws and incentives to affect social cohesiveness and to keep us in balance are needed.

As a good faith measure, I will agree with you up to a point. And I'll bet you a cup of coffee (might have to mortgage the property, in regards to coffee prices these days), that if those laws are put into place, you would probably be one of the very first, to complain about them.

Have you heard of Ken Noguchi? He's the "Garbage Guy"' trying to clean up the area around Mt.Fuji. This is a man deserving of respect. Someone confronted him (some foreigner I believe) about all of the trash encountered during his climb. Noguchi-san, took it upon himself to clean up nearly eight tons of trash by himself, and with the aid of volunteers, they have managed to clear off almost 200 tons of garbage left behind by Japanese climbers, or by local villagers.

He's a "Hero", in my book. A man of action, who deserves a hell of a lot more respect than those of you who simply write about environmental issues.

In closing, I would acknowledge that I'm older than most of you. Your ideas are different from mine, as they should be. Some of my older postings were intentionally stupid. This is a Forum, not a "Thesis" paper, and as such, they've gathered some responses. Some good, some bad.

So, Mr. Prosecutor, I'll leave the ball in your court, in regards to a response. I'm thick skinned enough that your answer won't affect me much, nor will it hurt my feelings.

But I've got to tell you that your answer to the population problem, is not one that I'm completely happy with.

It kind of reminds me of an "Austrian Corporal", who later ruled Germany for a short time.

Not quite the same, but it's darned near close.

Looking forward to your response.

NBTP:rolleyes:

[TheNoNamedOne]

So you are proposing the elimination of roughly 66-77 million people, so that everyone else can have a park to walk around in. Am I right so far?

If I am, and I really am trying to be courteous here, how would you propose such a reduction could be accomplished?

When I say "decline" or "reduce" it does not mean "elimination" as in a Nazi plan of murder. Why would you assume it does?

The population of Japan is now experiencing a decrease. Couples are choosing to wait until much later to have a child, and that shortens their fertility time period and chances for reproduction.

We should do nothing to artificially affect those choices made by those couples, thereby letting the population decrease. Transfers of tax funds through subsidies to couples to encourage them to reproduce should not be encouraged. That way, the decline will continue naturally.

A canal takes almost no time destroy,...

Yes, it does. Just the political maneuverings to restore a waterway to its natural state takes time in endless meetings at town, city, county, state and national level. There are many questions to consider, and on top of that there is the issue of funding. Throw in political parties seeking special interests for their constituents and then you have the makings of stalemate and inertia.

The proposal and effort to return Florida stream and river systems back to their natural state has been put forth and have been moving very slowly since the 60's. It takes a lot of time.

... if those laws are put into place, you would probably be one of the very first, to complain about them.

No, I wouldn`t. I support laws to protect social cohesiveness and the ecology. I can`t think of any on the books now that I am against. I am not an Anarchist. Which ones are you imagining that would protect social cohesiveness and the ecology that I would object to?

He's a "Hero", in my book. A man of action, who deserves a hell of a lot more respect than those of you who simply write about environmental issues.

He does sound like a hero. Gets my respect, too. But so do many who use the pen as their sword. Surely you know the old adage I am referring to. But hey, what started Mr. Noguchi on his clean-up work? As you said, it was merely someone who complained with words (no action on his part) about the situation. So, Mr. Noguchi's deserving of respect can find its origin in the complaint of someone else who didn`t lift a finger to help -- but still that complaint has proven to be the catalyst of Mr. Noguchi's efforts.

But I've got to tell you that your answer to the population problem, is not one that I'm completely happy with.

It kind of reminds me of an "Austrian Corporal", who later ruled Germany for a short time.

Not quite the same, but it's darned near close.

How is it even remotely close? I have suggested letting people decrease their population merely through natural means and the right to choose without government interference. Your "Corporal" analogy is of someone who forcefully herded up people, placed them on cattle cars, sent them to slave/death camps, and then exterminated them. All quite unatural AND devoid of respect for rights and choice of the individual and their decisions and with the utmost of government interference against respect for the autonomy of their persons.

[Bones]

Great reply, Mr. Prosecutor !!!!! :)

To be honest, I was just messing with your head about your post. It was never about an attack on yourself, just your post.

As to my analogy, I'm originally German, and I'm old enough to have endured the prejudice from American kids when we moved to the United States. My father, who was an Officer in the Waffen SS, enjoyed the hospitality of the Russians, for thirteen years after the war had ended. He had black hair, brown eyes, and was considered to be not good enough to join the elite "SS". For that, you had to have blond hair, blue eyes, etc...

Like Dk, I've felt like an outsider most of my life. A German kid, who could not speak English, didn't naturally make friends quickly back in 1963. I worked hard to loose the accent that people have expected of me from watching things like Hogan's Heroes, or those old WW II movies.

So when you made your post, it was like an invitation for me to mess with you a little bit. So, what better way to do that, than by going to the extreme opposite, of what you had meant to say?

You have done well, Grasshopper!! :)

NBTP

[TheNoNamedOne]

You have done well, Grasshopper!! :)

lol.

So, then I take it, you, too, are ok with letting the population decline in a natural way, and that this could in the long run lead to a higher quality of life with more recourses divided amongst fewer people (you know the analogy, bigger pie slices for fewer people)?

[Bones]

Sorry, Prosecutor,

In regards to my previous posting, I gave you a "well done", for finally answering my question.

To answer yours, I do not agree with your ideas as they apply to this discussion, in any way, shape, or form.

And your closing statement, only makes me think that you are an even bigger idiot than I thought you were.

You're probably going to be upset with me for saying that, all of that talk about courtesy, etc...

So before you start your diatribe, take a look at your last post, and think about what might have triggered this response from me, to you.

If it's a good enough answer, I'll consider responding.

NBTP

[TheNoNamedOne]

To answer yours, I do not agree with your ideas as they apply to this discussion, in any way, shape, or form.

Please elaborate on those points you don't and explain your reasons for not doing so.

And your closing statement, only makes me think that you are an even bigger idiot than I thought you were.

Now, is that really necessary? There is no need to derail the discussion into name calling, and I will remind you of one of the guidelines of the forum so that you can discipline yourself to check such behaviour:
If you are unable to have a polite discussion on the topic at hand, keep out of that topic.

...take a look at your last post, and think about what might have triggered this response from me, to you.
I am not a psychic, and there is no need to play geussing games. If you have an argument to reply with, then I would expect that you bring it forth. If you do not, then I will just presume you have none.

[bokuwa]

Here is something that most likely will not help.


Lesbian politician aims to change Japan's attitudes to gays

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070607/lf_afp/japanpoliticsgay_070607142616

"By serving as a politician who is openly lesbian, I can make the homosexual population a visible issue," said Otsuji, formerly a local lawmaker in the western city of Osaka.

"I believe one of my missions in parliament would be to expedite legislation of a system similar to a civil union," Otsuji said in an interview at a campaign office in Tokyo's biggest gay district.

[Bones]

Well, you are certainly thin skinned, but if you insist on civility......

Points:

1. In your original posting, where you attempted to discuss this supposed "crisis":

Quote:
I am against this. I support a decline in the population of Japan to pre WW2 levels.

2. You had mentioned restraint.

Quote:
Anyway, I assure you that I will try to exercise more discipline on my side and not call your posts the "dumbest posting I've ever encountered" even if I do believe so.

3. In regards to infrastructure.

Quote:
[quote] Look at Florida--the infrastructure of the canals.....

4. Your thoughts, on my question in regards to the cycle repeating itself.

It could, but the possibility of something occurring does not necessitate that it will do so.

5.Your last message.

So, then I take it, you, too, are ok with letting the population decline in a natural way, ...........(you know the analogy, bigger pie slices for fewer people)?

Those are the issues I have with your posting. I sincerely hope that you find it within your heart, to forgive my previous transgressions.:rolleyes:

Addressing those points in order:

1. Having read some of your other threads within the "New Forums", I have finally realized how important you are. Wow, having Japanese politicians contacting you about this "crisis/slump", as it relates to this issue, that's just awesome.

The condensed version:

Who are you to decide the fate of Japan?

2. Enough said.

3.This is Japan, not Florida. But if I had to work those projects, I would certainly be looking at a Japanese contractor. Americans are too lazy to make that kind of thing happen, or restricted by union rules.

4. Name one instance, where it hasn't.

5. You are proposing that I would be willing to support a reduction of a population, in order to have a bigger yard, a bigger park to walk in, more resources for my personal use, etc.....

You may correct me if I'm wrong, but all of your points appear selfish to me.

After having looked at some of your other postings (which I've stayed out of), I'm as kind as I can be.

Even dk, got tired of arguing with you on a specific subject. He prefers a more balanced type of journalism, compared to what you are proposing, within your conversations.

Keeping within the limits that you have set forth, there is no way that I could condone the reduction of a population, simply because I would like to have a bigger yard. I could simply move somewhere else.

Oh, I almost forgot.

These are " The New Forums", correct?

So with your implied "threats", you are going to block my posting, due to the fact that I am attacking your point of view?

You are going to block me, due to the fact that I think your postings are idiotic. You are going to block my postings, because my views, differ from yours?

You are going to come waltzing in with your opinions, and expect everyone who reads these threads, to agree with your opinion?

Go For It !!!!

My deepest respect goes out to the men, and women, who have had the courage to put on the uniform.

NBTP

[TheNoNamedOne]

1. Having read some of your other threads within the "New Forums", I have finally realized how important you are. Wow, having Japanese politicians contacting you about this "crisis/slump", as it relates to this issue, that's just awesome.

Sarcasm. Hmmm...cute.

Who are you to decide the fate of Japan?

Just a long term tax payer living here with the rights as all Japanese to express my ideas.

Btw, who was that foreignor above in your example to decide that Mt. Fuji was all littered up with garbage?

2. Enough said.

Yes, on my part. You haven't said anything why it would be bad for the environment or people in the long run.

3.This is Japan, not Florida. But if I had to work those projects, I would certainly be looking at a Japanese contractor. Americans are too lazy to make that kind of thing happen, or restricted by union rules.

Really? Japanese worker productivity is ranked dead last amongst the 7 major industrialized countries of the world, and has been so for 11 years. And this information is from Japan!
The research (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200705310091.html) results showed Japan ranked last in labor productivity among the seven major industrialized economies.

However, the finding was nothing new. Japan has remained in the cellar for 11 straight years, according to the Japan Productivity Center for Socio-Economic Development.

4. Name one instance, where it hasn't.

I don't need to. You need to show us that just because something is possible, it necessitates that it will occur, for that is what I said is not necessarily so. You assert that the cycle will start all over again once a particular population declines. Your falacy is appeal to tradition -- i.e. just because it has been so, it always will be so.

5. You are proposing that I would be willing to support a reduction of a population, in order to have a bigger yard, a bigger park to walk in, more resources for my personal use, etc.....

Not you personally. The argument is bigger and has more rammifications than for just you. I presumed you accepted such with your reply that seemed to be praising my post reply to you above. It now appears that you were being sarcastic or misleading there as well.

You may correct me if I'm wrong, but all of your points appear selfish to me.

Why? How am I to gain personally? Those reductions in any real amounts to affect me would probably be far past my lifetime. I am addressing the issue from a species and environmental point of view -- not a personal one of self-gain.

After having looked at some of your other postings (which I've stayed out of), I'm as kind as I can be.

Consider yourself invited to join them.

Even dk, got tired of arguing with you on a specific subject. He prefers a more balanced type of journalism, compared to what you are proposing, within your conversations.

You are misrepresenting the discussion he and I were having. He didn't say he "was tired of arguing with me." He simply said he was tired of debating in a general sense, and that these days he does not have the energy to put into it. That is all.

Forums discussions/conversations or debate are not journalism.

Oh, I almost forgot.

These are " The New Forums", correct?

So with your implied "threats", you are going to block my posting, due to the fact that I am attacking your point of view?

NBTP, where have I threatened you? All I did was remind you of the guidelines so you could discipline yourself. I welcome you to attack my point of view, or argument. However, I do not welcome you attacking anyone personally by calling them an "idiot" or other derogatory label. You can attack the message without attacking the messenger.

Compare:

That is idiotic reasoning you are using.
You are an idiot.


Note the difference please.

You are going to block me, due to the fact that I think your postings are idiotic. You are going to block my postings, because my views, differ from yours?

I would never block anyone for those reasons, and before I did so I would discuss any severe action such as that with dk. I have a strong interest in seeing JU forums grow in membership. I think treating everyone respectfully by not insulting them and calling them idiots would make for an environment that would welcome people and encourage them to stay active. Are you suggesting the opposite?

You are going to come waltzing in with your opinions, and expect everyone who reads these threads, to agree with your opinion?

How boring that would be if they agreed with everything I said! I like opposition to my views when that promotes discussion or change.

My deepest respect goes out to the men, and women, who have had the courage to put on the uniform.

What does this have to do with the topic of this thread? Perhaps you would like to start a new one with that as the theme, and let this one get back to, and stay with the population crisis of Japan.

[Bones]

In a perfect world, I would have ample time to respond to your latest post. With 80 days left over here, and with tons of things left to do.....

So, Mr. Prosecutor, let's agree to dis-agree, and call this one a win for you.

No need to drag this out and bore everybody else to death.

I had crafted a better reply earlier this afternoon, but with a push of a wrong button, that answer got erased.

At this point, I'll concede to your win, if only to let everyone else know that I'm not running away from you.

NBTP:)

[Fonze]

I just read this and I believe the government should stay out of natures way.
Specially since this country is kinda crowded and an Island.

[socalheart]

Uhm... (o.O)

I can understand why Japan wants to increase its population. Unfortunately, its citizens can't all afford a family. Japan could subsidize families, but from where are they getting that money? Some people just don't want to have children. Are they going to make a law requiring procreation from its citizens? Once the children are adults, will there be jobs available to them? Will they want to work in what's available? It all seems like supposition to me at this point.

[newvalor]

Well if most couples are waiting longer to have children, and the Gov. wants more children now it's a overlapping sitation.

Once the newer couples have children that would help add to the population, but then when the older couples finally decide it is time, that would add even more to the population. That would lead to overcrowding again.

If you want to see more of the circumstances for overcrowding look at China. With this situation as it is now and if say those 2 scenarios were to happen, this country may possibly end up in the same boat.

[Fonze]

Well not in japan cause the parents live with you to the end.

[Muku]

At this point, I'll concede to your win, if only to let everyone else know that I'm not running away from you.


FYI You da man! :thumbup:


Oh and btw I usually dont like to equate discussions on an internet forum like this with winning or losing however in my opinion, you kicked ass. Thank you, it was fun to read!

[Fonze]

Wasn't it.
Oh and TP I thougt you were american I did not know you were a japanese citizen.

On socal point I believe there will be jobs because the old will retire and the next gen will take over.
Look at the u.s when the baby boomers retire they expect a big labor shortage.

[newvalor]

Wasn't it.
Oh and TP I thougt you were american I did not know you were a japanese citizen.

On socal point I believe there will be jobs because the old will retire and the next gen will take over.
Look at the u.s when the baby boomers retire they expect a big labor shortage.

Nah, the Messicans will take care of the labor shortages. I mean they've already overran McDonalds and are found in almost every Home Depot parking lot. LoL

[Muku]

Nah, the Messicans will take care of the labor shortages. I mean they've already overran McDonalds and are found in almost every Home Depot parking lot. LoL
Maybe they could send a few million over here to help out as well:-|:thumbup::rolleyes:

[newvalor]

The Messicans will do anything, and I mean anything for a few measily dollars.

[newvalor]

plus they'll bring all 20 kids they have plus thier cousins/nephews/nieces to help restable the population.

[Fonze]

Maybe they could send a few million over here to help out as well:-|:thumbup::rolleyes:

Between my mexican people and filipinos were like visa, were everywere you wanna be.

[Fonze]

The Messicans will do anything, and I mean anything for a few measily dollars.

It's not that measly of dollars if they can survive in the states and send there families back home some money.

[newvalor]

It's not that measly of dollars if they can survive in the states and send there families back home some money.

I gonna do some math here.

say you have 5 guys and both are working for say $5 an hour. So at 8 hours each they got $45. Now at 40 hours per week, that would amount up to (5X40=$200). Now $200X5guys= $1000 a week. Now in a month that is $4000, wow more than I make a month.

Dang and they got it so bad????

[ja_Patriot]

Topic: Japan's population is decreasing rapidly. The government has been worried about this and has been thinking of ways to stop it from doing so and to get it growing again....

Why the worry? IMHO, Macroeconomics. With Japanese longevity, each year more and more elderly access the social security and pension system as beneficiaries.

And with such a low birth rate to a point where you have population decline, within a few decades or so (perhaps it's even a shorter period), there will come a point where there simply won't be enough funds for the payment of benefits because there simply won't be enough contributors and wage earners.

Encouraging a growth in the birth rate is one (almost desperate) counter-measure.

[Muku]

Topic: Japan's population is decreasing rapidly. The government has been worried about this and has been thinking of ways to stop it from doing so and to get it growing again....

Why the worry? IMHO, Macroeconomics. With Japanese longevity, each year more and more elderly access the social security and pension system as beneficiaries.

And with such a low birth rate to a point where you have population decline, within a few decades or so (perhaps it's even a shorter period), there will come a point where there simply won't be enough funds for the payment of benefits because there simply won't be enough contributors and wage earners.

Encouraging a growth in the birth rate is one (almost desperate) counter-measure.

Another thing they will most probably do is raise taxes. Since there are many social welfare programs funded by the government they are going to have to use funds set aside for other programs and redirect towards the elderly or allow the foloowing example to happen.

Problems are already showing up with the bankrupcy of a town in Hokaido. Almost all government functions have ceased to exist. The hospital has been pratically shut down and people have to pay more for services that until quite recently were free. AMong a ever growing list of other problems. People are leaving in droves, but the ones that cant, particularly the elderly are truly up the perverbial creek without a paddle. One man who has diabetes and lost a leg along with other health problems has been told he HAS to leave the hospital he is currently staying at and move to another one many miles away. He can not afford the move nor can his wife move to take care of him either. It is a really sad case, it is almost like the government telling this guy and others in similar situations to just hurry up and die.:mad:

[Fonze]

Why not just get chinese and others with socialized medicine to come work here to pay into these programs. If they need treatment they can bill their governments or is there another way in case babymaking doesn't pan out.

[newvalor]

it's ok it's ok, I'm willing to help repopulate this country. I'll be taking applications plus a 6x8 full body pic.

[silviasichigo]

I will be on the night shift you can take the day shift or vise versa.

[DougP]

What a great idea :) We should get some shirts that say "We're here to help fix your population crisis!" or something like that.

Or one that says "If you don't start screwing her, I will."

[P_chan]

Ok you guys can have the day and night shift. I'll take cute girls only. Yuri Ebihara is on top of my list:D

[newvalor]

I have the greatest shirt known to man, it says on the front - My Dixie Wrecked.

I wore that shirt in HS and oddly enough most of the teachers never got it.

Hell lets go all out, lets open a business on island just like those stateside artificial incimination places.

[silviasichigo]

I will be the lead Tech......because I can sneez on a girl and get her pregnate :( kind of sucks but it can help Japan.

[newvalor]

you have the sneeze technique, I have the look technique.

[socalheart]

What if they institute a welfare program for children like they do in the states? People in the states are always pushing out kids and getting welfare for it. That'd be a way to up the population. Who cares if the kids turn out to be good for nothing welfare moochers, the government will take care of it? Does this have anything to do with the growing desire to create a greater sense of nationalism in Japan? "A bun in every oven" theory?

[DoctorP]

What if they institute a welfare program for children like they do in the states? People in the states are always pushing out kids and getting welfare for it. That'd be a way to up the population. Who cares if the kids turn out to be good for nothing welfare moochers, the government will take care of it? Does this have anything to do with the growing desire to create a greater sense of nationalism in Japan? "A bun in every oven" theory?

There is a similar system like this already in Japan. Doesn't seem to help all that much. Japanese seem to enjoy the ability to move around freely, and still partake in their individual rituals that they had before marriage. I think even offering money would not help that much.

[newvalor]

the government hasn't offered me any money to help repopulate in the women.

[Muku]

In my opinion in the short run there will be a number of stresses on the system, yet in the long run it bodes well for the younger segment of Japanese society in that they will not have to face the problems of unemplyoment that many people in their 20's through 40's are facing today.

It will become more of a sellers market. Automation in many industries will take over where human's are currently doing the work. Japan is already well on it's way to creating and producing new robots and automation systems that will take the place of workers now.

Back to the short term stress. Overall the current method of compensation from workers earning huge bonuses, to the average salaryman or government employee getting tremendous lump sum payments at retirement.

Also the manadatory retirement age, currently at 60, should be raised to 65, for those that are physically capable of continuing to work. The system of paying unemployment benefits to retired workers after retirement for 18 months should also be looked at. Retiree's can not start collecting their pensions until they are 63 (?), I dont have the time to get the link for that age right now, so for people that have no savings they have zero income from the time they retire and unemployment stops until 63. That's for those that actually paid into the unemployment scheme.

These problems amongst a host of others will have to be looked at for the upcoming elderly population here.

[ness4k]

I agree. Increasing the population of any country is the last thing that should be on anyone's mind. I mean it's already pack to the brim here on Okinawa. Mainland probably isnt as bad except for places like Tokyo. They need to take care of the people they have no instead of encourage child birth. CRAZY!

[DAPRINCE69]

i agree with what they are doing, they need mroe people, need a stable number of people. Japanese people flurish on the kids. kids to them are everything and the future. Decrease in population will hurt the economy f japan in the future!!!

[kombu_kid]

Well, we're gonna find out, since the population is decreasing and the average citizen is up there in age. It's strange because most people would think that a country's population just keeps increasing naturally. It makes one wonder at first, why aren't people having children? My feeling is that many women nowadays strive to nail down that ultimate career, make a healthy paycheck and enjoy the niceties of a free, childless existance. Plus, what does it cost to raise a child all the way to college years? I can imagine many couples looking at it and saying "I'm out". It's a staggering burden, and even harder in Japan, I'm guessing.

As far as the morality of reducing the population, I don't believe there should be pressure to do so. I really don't know (or does anyone here?) the number of people per sq. ft in all of Japan, averaging in farmland and cities, so who could say it's overcrowded? Once again, when you buy into the argument that "less people means better quality of life", where does that rationale end? I mean, back in the wild west, people owned 100,000 acre ranches for almost nothing. Now, that sounds like a better quality of life right there, so should we strive to bring down the population levels to 1880's levels? I know I'm exaggerating here; just making the point.

It's funny; it reminds me of some housing developments here in some of the more beautiful rural areas. They build a tract of homes. Then the first group that buys into them quickly make up a petition to stop the further building of homes to save the open spaces and keep the quality of life.

I don't know if any country has prospered while it's population was declining. I believe I heard that Italy's is on the decline. It's kind of like an upside-down triangle--a lot of elderly citizens "up top" who need expensive medical care and who are taking from the economy, while there are less people at "the bottom" supporting the whole system. They'll have to jack up taxes on "the bottom" to support "the top". So how can the bottom also afford to have children? Unless they open the floodgates of immigration, like the U.S., or deficit spend into oblivion, also like the U.S.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Excellent post, KK!

I'll look for the person/sq ft info you had asked about and then try to comment on some of the points you made.

Though, from my previous posts in this thread, you can see I am for a radical decrease. I would like Japan to be at a population that matches the BCC (Biological Carrying Capacity) of its land recourses that could be used to feed all of its own citizens without imports (I feel the same for all countries and even smaller regional areas within countries).

[okiprince07]

i think it is good. they will have more space/land for people and businesses to grow more. They cant have tooo many kids. Japanese prefer t have 1 over 3 because, just like korean, japanese are very strict when it comes to school. They want to send their child to the best school japan has to offer to get a great education and life. They pay out the butt for school here in japan. It is usually too expensive for normal people. They go to regular school then a school after that also for more studying. The families would rather spend all money on 1 kid and make him/her all their attention instead of like 2 or 3 kids...just their customs

[TheNoNamedOne]

Slowly but surely ... extinction for the Japanese (naturally of course):

Japan sees natural population decline of 2,000 in 2007 (http://enews.mcot.net/view.php?id=3395)
Kyodo News, Mar 23

TOKYO, March 22 Kyodo - The number of births in Japan fell below the number of deaths by 2,000 as of Oct. 1 last year, showing the first natural population decline since 1950, when comparable data became available, the Internal Affairs and Communications Ministry's estimate showed Friday. ...

Japan's population was estimated at 127,771,000 as of Oct. 1 last year, up 1,000 from a year earlier.

Japanese nationals accounted for 126,085,000, down 69,000 for a third consecutive yearly decline.

The number of foreign residents increased about 71,000.

Looks like we foreigners taking up residence here are keeping the population afloat somewhat, but we are breeding out their purity.

Will Japanese be the first race from a modern industrial country to disappear?

The crisis continues...

[Bones]

As posted by TP:

Looks like we foreigners taking up residence here are keeping the population afloat somewhat, but we are breeding out their purity.

Will Japanese be the first race from a modern industrial country to disappear?

The crisis continues...
By "here", I presume that you mean Japan in general?

I'm one of the numbers of those who have taken up permanent residence over here. And I like it.

I don't think that the Japanese are going to disappear anytime in the near future. But I think as a nation, The United States will not be a "Super Power" much longer, if things keep going the way they have been.

Everything is being out-sourced, the educational level is not even close to that of our foreign competitors, original thought is out the window, it's all about money.

And we all know who controls that.:thumbdown:

NBTP

[okisteve]

As posted by TP:



Everything is being out-sourced, the educational level is not even close to that of our foreign competitors, original thought is out the window, it's all about money.

And we all know who controls that.:thumbdown:

NBTP


Who?

I think it's about equally divided between the China and the big oil producers.

[okisteve]

Slowly but surely ... extinction for the Japanese (naturally of course):



Looks like we foreigners taking up residence here are keeping the population afloat somewhat, but we are breeding out their purity.

Will Japanese be the first race from a modern industrial country to disappear?

The crisis continues...

TP - just because there is a downward trend at present does not mean there will not be an upward trend in the future. Governments are pretty good at providing incentives to have more kids. I believe that is what some of the European countries like Spain and Italy are doing or considering.

A very wise course would to gradually allow the population to shrink, which will reduce the pressure on resources and the environment, and apply the brakes at some point before it's too late.

Let's face facts though - India and the other big baby-breeders need to get serious about population control. China did and is reaping the benefits.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... I support a decline in the population of Japan to pre WW2 levels. I think a population about half of what is here now, bringing it down to 50 to 60 million, would allow for more recources per person, such as land space, and that would increase quality of life. Of course, the transformation would be painful in the beginning as the economy adjusts, but I think in the long run, a smaller population would allow for a better quality of life and positive impact upon the ecology, as stresses from human populated areas stop pushing into the last parts of Japan's natural areas and population centers ultimately rolled back to some significant degree.
...

Don't know about this. Like all economies of industralized nations, the economy of Japan has expanded since WWII. Japan's economy has created the positions that must be filled by human cogs in the capitalist machinery.

I don't suppose robots can fill them.

[okisteve]

Don't know about this. Like all economies of industralized nations, the economy of Japan has expanded since WWII. Japan's economy has created the positions that must be filled by human cogs in the capitalist machinery.

I don't suppose robots can fill them.

That's worth thinking about though. There seem to be a lot of "personal services" here that are very low productivity. How many people in Okinawa make a living stuffing flyers in mailboxes?

I haven't spent much time in the real Japanese economy but I bet there are several million tea-serving OLs and pretty receptionists that the economy could survive without.

[Brand_X]

The population is decreasing because they are scared to get intimate. The majority of Japanese girls dont find Japanese men attractive. Mainly because they are not confident and secure with themselves. Japanese guys would rather pay for it than be embarrassed and rejected. I have a huge Johnson. This is called natural selection.

[Tony Stacks]

Well thank God that the GOJ helps with the cost of child birth cuz if not we would've been ******. Long live the land of the rising son!

I think they are doing a great thing!

[Isaak Brodsky]

The population is decreasing because they are scared to get intimate. The majority of Japanese girls dont find Japanese men attractive. Mainly because they are not confident and secure with themselves. Japanese guys would rather pay for it than be embarrassed and rejected. I have a huge Johnson. This is called natural selection.

Brand X, your observations here seem a bit outrageous. I'd say that the Japanese are much more open about sex than Westerners are. Is it even possible to support the idea that "most" Japanese girls/women don't find Japanese men attractive? Seriously. Can you also say that Japanese men must pay for it because of potential rejection even in the face of the thousands of years of history here? I think you're just kiddin' 'round.

[okisteve]

Well thank God that the GOJ helps with the cost of child birth cuz if not we would've been ******. Long live the land of the rising son!

I think they are doing a great thing!

And if you don't get the (accidental?) double meaning, see me after class.

[Muku]

That's worth thinking about though. There seem to be a lot of "personal services" here that are very low productivity. How many people in Okinawa make a living stuffing flyers in mailboxes?

I haven't spent much time in the real Japanese economy but I bet there are several million tea-serving OLs and pretty receptionists that the economy could survive without.

Steve for just about every OL that you see serving tea there is a "salary-man" that doesnt do a hell of a lot either.

From a productivity standpoint alone I agree that it isnt worth it. However being the country that this is, I see it as Japan paying greater attention to personal services and these people are currently an essential part of getting things done.

A lot of buinesses could probably do a hell of a lot better with less but in the long run might suffer because of the lack of these personal services.

[Muku]

The population is decreasing because they are scared to get intimate. The majority of Japanese girls dont find Japanese men attractive. Mainly because they are not confident and secure with themselves. Japanese guys would rather pay for it than be embarrassed and rejected. I have a huge Johnson. This is called natural selection.

Really? Tell that to the millions of couples getting married every year and having kids. I am fairly certain about this, but did you know that here in Okinawa the population is actually increasing?

Got nothing to do with intimacy. And oh question for you here, who's definition of intimacy are you talking about BrandX's ? Each culture has there own way of showing afffection and intimacy and I think you are off the mark here by generalizing about the "majority of Japanese girl's dont find Japanese men attractive" , If that were the case the population decline would be more noticeable.

There is a bigger social problem in that women are a much larger part of the work force than every before. They are choosing careers over being "traditional housewives", and for many marriage is taking a back seat to their careers. Plus many couples, since they are getting, on average it seems, married later they are having less children. Dont see too many families with 6 or 8 kids here, it is economically unfeasible for the majority of people to raise such a large family.

Oh and in regards to your last line about "natural selection" :rolleyes: I was going to say that it sounds to me like your "little" head is thinking for your "big" head, but since you say you have such a "huge" johnson :rolleyes:, then I guess your "huge" head IS thinking for your "little" head.

As if it ever mattered?:rolleyes:

[okisteve]

The population is decreasing because they are scared to get intimate. The majority of Japanese girls dont find Japanese men attractive. Mainly because they are not confident and secure with themselves. Japanese guys would rather pay for it than be embarrassed and rejected. I have a huge Johnson. This is called natural selection.


Don't worry Muku and Ian, he's gotta be joking around. Or else he's trying to prove by example that J-women will go for American men even if they are dolts.

Seriously, why DO all those cute Oki girls try to hook up? I suspect it's that Americans have large paychecks, not large Johnsons. With the economic situation in Okinawa, just about any GS or E might look pretty good.

[DougP]

Shoot I got hooked up with a hottie while I was broke and unemployed. :) Married her later. So there goes the money theory right?:D Seriously I'm sure there are many factors that come into play in the game of love.

I read somewhere that the ever increasing rise of women in the work force and independent women making some good paychecks has a part in the declining birthrate.

Has anyone ever watched that "pink bus" show? The one where different people from around Japan get picked to go on a worldwide tour and find love?
I was just watching it again last night and I can say one thing for sure. The men that are on that show are very awkward to watch. Their shaky attempts at wooing the females reminds me of a 7th grade dance.

[okisteve]

Doug, you probably just exude optimism and "good catch".

I'm guessing that Japanese men have no real tradition of wooing (or chasing) women because of the prevalence of arranged marriages, and the ease of getting a weekend companion from the office.

Women on the other hand, are programmed biologically to seek a secure father for their children.

[DougP]

Good point on the tradition of arranged marriages. I hadn't really thought of it that way.

[Muku]

I was just watching it again last night and I can say one thing for sure. The men that are on that show are very awkward to watch. Their shaky attempts at wooing the females reminds me of a 7th grade dance.

Another thing to consider Doug is that, even myself here as well, is that we compare everything to the way westerners do things. That doesnt make their methods here backwards nor our ways as so superior.

Each culture has their own way.

I wonder why you found it awkward to watch? Was it because you were reliving some person memory or maybe because of the innocence, and shyness of the people involved? I've watched "Ai Nori" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainori) a few times and I know what you are alluding to but it is their way.......

39 couples have found love through the program, and there have been 7 marriages. On March 1, 2005, the first "Ainori Baby" was born, and as of mid-2006 there have been 2 babies born in total.

[TheLastDon]

Has anyone ever watched that "pink bus" show? The one where different people from around Japan get picked to go on a worldwide tour and find love?
I was just watching it again last night and I can say one thing for sure. The men that are on that show are very awkward to watch. Their shaky attempts at wooing the females reminds me of a 7th grade dance.

Are you talking about AI Nori. That's a cute show but I have to say that most of the girls are clueless as well. :)

[DougP]

Yup "Ai Nori". I love the show and it is painful to watch sometimes. I just feel like yelling "Dude, say something to her!" or "Quit talking about your ex girlfriend!" There are different types of wooing in many different cultures but grabbing a pair and telling someone how you feel about them is not necessarily a western only attribute. Doesn't mean they have to come right out and say it either. Some of them get it. Some on the other hand, wow.

Oh you guys forgot about the fist marriage that was a result of the show. It ended in divorce because the guy was too needy and child like.

[Muku]

Yup "Ai Nori". I love the show and it is painful to watch sometimes. I just feel like yelling "Dude, say something to her!" or "Quit talking about your ex girlfriend!" There are different types of wooing in many different cultures but grabbing a pair and telling someone how you feel about them is not necessarily a western only attribute. Doesn't mean they have to come right out and say it either. Some of them get it. Some on the other hand, wow.

Oh you guys forgot about the fist marriage that was a result of the show. It ended in divorce because the guy was too needy and child like.

Did you read the link to Ainori in my link?

There are different types of wooing in many different cultures but grabbing a pair and telling someone how you feel about them is not necessarily a western only attribute.
I wonder? Doesnt seem to be too much of a thing here though. Particularly since showing emotions outwardly is not that common.

Maybe not a western attribute...who knows, but I think your point of grabbing a pair, only emphasizes the "western" attitude towards taking what you want.

[DougP]

My use of "grabbing a pair" was just humor, nothing more. And yes I did read the link. ;)

[P_chan]

Shoot I got hooked up with a hottie while I was broke and unemployed. :) Married her later. So there goes the money theory right?:D Seriously I'm sure there are many factors that come into play in the game of love.

I read somewhere that the ever increasing rise of women in the work force and independent women making some good paychecks has a part in the declining birthrate.

Has anyone ever watched that "pink bus" show? The one where different people from around Japan get picked to go on a worldwide tour and find love?
I was just watching it again last night and I can say one thing for sure. The men that are on that show are very awkward to watch. Their shaky attempts at wooing the females reminds me of a 7th grade dance.

My wife and I used to never miss an episdoe of that show! It's true, kinda sad to watch some of those guys try to pick up on the girls. I remember they were suspecting these two guys of being gay, because they hung out with each other more then they tried to hook up with the females.

Haven't watched it recently.