Japanese woman dies searching for care

[TheNoNamedOne]

TOKYO - An 89-year-old woman (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071228/ap_on_re_as/japan_ambulance_death) died after an ambulance crew spent two hours trying 30 hospitals before finding one that would accept her for treatment, Japanese officials said Friday. ...

The ambulance crew and local fire department contacted 30 hospitals before one finally said it could admit her, Matsumoto said — about two hours after her family had called for an ambulance. ...

Matsumoto said the other hospitals rejected the woman because they were full or their doctors were not immediately available to treat her.

Last year, a pregnant woman in western Japan died after being refused admission by about 20 hospitals that said they were full.

Lordy! Yeah, I remember the story last year about the prego dying. I think she was a foreignor and the ambulance was driving around for hours calling ahead to hospitals telling them they had a foreignor but the hospitals were worried about communication problems so refused her (or at least that was some of the rumors which were going around).

Unconscionable that these hospitals could not admit this lady. I think it has more to do with age and the government not authorizing expensive treatment to save her and thus the hospital makes little money from national health insurance on her. She would be taking a bed for a younger patient that would be given much more expensive treatment.

I can understand (not saying I agree with it) their reasoning of holding off on treatment, but not on just admitting her so that she could have some basic treatment and a bed.

I guess it might not be true that Japanese society respects their elder citizens. Only families of them do.

Sad.

[Oxmix]

A little over 20 years ago my friends wife called me in a panic. Her father, a stroke victim, had taken a turn for the worst. To make matters worst he was uninsured. She had called the VA and was told that they would not take him. My friend was in Japan and could not be reached. I told her to call a private ambulance company, give the drivers a few extra bucks, and have them take him to the VA hospital, wheel him into the emergency room and then hall ass out of there. I said that under those conditions that the VA would not kick him out in the snow to die. He was a WWll veteran and it was Christmas time. The press that the VA would get if he died on them because they rolled him back out the door would not go over very well. They did take him in and took very good care of him. He lived another 20 plus years.

Years ago my friends wife gave birth to a baby girl. There were complications and the doctor said that the baby would not make it and left the baby with my friend so he could spend time with the baby until it pass away. As the doctor was about to leave the room my friend grabbed the doctor and convinced, intimidated was more like it, that the doctor had better not let his baby girl die. The baby survived and is today a mother herself.

Don't take no for an answer.

Regards

Ox

[Muku]

Unconscionable that these hospitals could not admit this lady. I think it has more to do with age and the government not authorizing expensive treatment to save her and thus the hospital makes little money from national health insurance on her. She would be taking a bed for a younger patient that would be given much more expensive treatment.

I can understand (not saying I agree with it) their reasoning of holding off on treatment, but not on just admitting her so that she could have some basic treatment and a bed.


If a person is unfamiliar with the system here it is easy to understand the anger towards the "system". If you are unfamiliar with how hospitals work here the same thing could very well happen to you. There are very few hospitals, particularly here in Okinawa that are equipped to handle emergency care patients. You could fall on your ass and break your leg outside the entrance of many hospitals and NOT be treated there, they would call an ambulance to transport you elsewhere.

Of course cases like this point to failures or problems with the overall system, but in a country where EVERY resident can get medical insurance and treatment if necessary this is just a another sad instance of the mistakes in the overall system itself.

It is an improper assumption to make that she was refused entry because of authorization, or lack of authorization due to monetary restraints.

Without having more information about the reason that she was being transported to a hospital and what her status was leaves too many questions to be blaming the system as a whole. There is not enough information in the article explaining why she was refused care either, and what "basic" care she may have or may not have needed.

Your assumption or inference that it was due to her age is also imo jaded.

I guess it might not be true that Japanese society respects their elder citizens. Only families of them do.
Nothing to do with the topic directly either...as evidenced below in your following statement....not the elderly here is it?


Lordy! Yeah, I remember the story last year about the prego dying.

I think she was a foreignor and the ambulance was driving around for hours calling ahead to hospitals telling them they had a foreignor but the hospitals were worried about communication problems so refused her (or at least that was some of the rumors which were going around).

I garuntee you that it wouldnt happen to me, because I know the system here and where I would need to go for assistance or care, not just for me but my family and anyone that would need assistance as well.

If you are prepared it isnt a problem, just another part of living in a foreign country. Know your surroundings and what you need to survive.

[okisteve]

Something is definitely off-kilter about that story. Even if there are only a few hospitals here that have emergency rooms, wouldn't an ambulance crew know where they are?

The story does not actually state that she was a trauma or other emergency case though. The only thing that makes sense is if she had some problem that the ambulance crew knew needed a specialist, and tried to locate one. But in most instances, a patient in serious shape goes through an emergency room to be stabilized before being admitted anywhere.

[Jrocka83]

I remember I was sent to the General Hospital in Sasebo Japan, Becuase the EKG machine was fualty on the ship, and they thought I had a serious heart problem. I was in and out of the hospital and thru with five dieferent exeminations in less then 10 Mins. While others looked like they had been waiting there for hours. I think they where uconfortable with the presence of a guijin in the hospital, and wanted me in and out as soon as possible. It turned out I didn't have a heart problem at all, or so they said. The story about the pregnant women is sad. The 89 year, it sucks, but not so sad. 89 is well lived life.. May she R.I.P. God bless her soul.

[okisteve]

Lordy! Yeah, I remember the story last year about the prego dying. I think she was a foreignor and the ambulance was driving around for hours calling ahead to hospitals telling them they had a foreignor but the hospitals were worried about communication problems so refused her (or at least that was some of the rumors which were going around).

Unconscionable that these hospitals could not admit this lady. I think it has more to do with age and the government not authorizing expensive treatment to save her and thus the hospital makes little money from national health insurance on her. She would be taking a bed for a younger patient that would be given much more expensive treatment.

I can understand (not saying I agree with it) their reasoning of holding off on treatment, but not on just admitting her so that she could have some basic treatment and a bed.

I guess it might not be true that Japanese society respects their elder citizens. Only families of them do.

Sad.


According to my source under deep cover in the medical world, the situation in Tokyo and some other prefectures is very bad as far as the supply of hospitals and doctors, but actually is not so bad here in Okinawa because the prefecture overworks their staff! I guess that is the bad news and the good news.

The pregnant woman in question was not under regular care of an ob/gyn, so when she had a serious late-pregnancy problem they tried to find an ER with an ob/gyn on duty but there were none.

It's a mess, but at least here in Oki your chances are better for finding a doc on duty, even if he/she is really tired.

I think the bottom line is that the system is really mismanaged when supply and demand are not matched up. The unconscionable part is that the same Japanese health system managers are still on the job. It will get worse in Okinawa in coming years too, from what I have heard about the economics of the system.

[Muku]

Something is definitely off-kilter about that story. Even if there are only a few hospitals here that have emergency rooms, wouldn't an ambulance crew know where they are?

The story does not actually state that she was a trauma or other emergency case though. The only thing that makes sense is if she had some problem that the ambulance crew knew needed a specialist, and tried to locate one. But in most instances, a patient in serious shape goes through an emergency room to be stabilized before being admitted anywhere.
I believe that there is too much missing from the story to make an accurate judgement about the woman and her situation.

Not going into too many details here.....I worked as a facilities manager for three hospitals here in Japan for roughly 10 years, I learned a little about the system here while working here.

I think the bottom line is that the system is really mismanaged when supply and demand are not matched up. The unconscionable part is that the same Japanese health system managers are still on the job. It will get worse in Okinawa in coming years too, from what I have heard about the economics of the system.
I agree with you here, it is mismanaged to a degree, yet if one does a bit of research it is not that hard to figure out where one needs to go in the case of an emergency.

For those that can read Japanese or have access to someone who can, the local newspapers have a listing of what hospitals are available for emergency care.

[Muku]

I remember I was sent to the General Hospital in Sasebo Japan, Becuase the EKG machine was fualty on the ship, and they thought I had a serious heart problem. I was in and out of the hospital and thru with five dieferent exeminations in less then 10 Mins. While others looked like they had been waiting there for hours. I think they where uconfortable with the presence of a guijin in the hospital, and wanted me in and out as soon as possible. It turned out I didn't have a heart problem at all, or so they said. The story about the pregnant women is sad. The 89 year, it sucks, but not so sad. 89 is well lived life.. May she R.I.P. God bless her soul.

I would be willing to bet that the base had a working agreement with the hospital you went too. Thank goodness things were not bad for you, and I agree that it is sad the woman died too.

Besides working in hospitals here I have been a patient on a number of occasions and have nothing bad to say about the treatment nor the costs incurred.

[Cathleen_38]

wow, here I bitch about VA being slow and they owe me 615.00 for reimbursements. you have to fill umpteen forms to get your money back, whereas when you do something, it takes only 5 minutes to do it. arghhh .. you don't wait 6 months to do something. And I hate my regular doctor.
last time I went there, here's the low down: I got sick I had a 24 hour flu bug, got a headache so bad that when I took two aspirin it didn't help, I had weakness, sweaty palms, and threw up twice. to get a simple doctor excuse you have to visit my doctor and then get the excuse for work. my bill was total without copay is $79.00! I paid the 15 copay out of christmas money and he has the nerve to ask me to have a pap smear and a breast exam done! that's not what I went in there for! I went to get the doctor's excuse not a bunch earful of doctor hogwash. you follow me? he got 64.00 dollars out of the deal for a simple piece of paper.
and that's what irritates me! I didn't go for his hogwash checkups, I refused them.

[Cathleen_38]

THIS IS WHY i GO TO VA IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S CHEAPER BUT THEY NEED TO PICK UP THE PACE.

[DoctorP]

wow, here I bitch about VA being slow and they owe me 615.00 for reimbursements. you have to fill umpteen forms to get your money back, whereas when you do something, it takes only 5 minutes to do it. arghhh .. you don't wait 6 months to do something. And I hate my regular doctor.
last time I went there, here's the low down: I got sick I had a 24 hour flu bug, got a headache so bad that when I took two aspirin it didn't help, I had weakness, sweaty palms, and threw up twice. to get a simple doctor excuse you have to visit my doctor and then get the excuse for work. my bill was total without copay is $79.00! I paid the 15 copay out of christmas money and he has the nerve to ask me to have a pap smear and a breast exam done! that's not what I went in there for! I went to get the doctor's excuse not a bunch earful of doctor hogwash. you follow me? he got 64.00 dollars out of the deal for a simple piece of paper.
and that's what irritates me! I didn't go for his hogwash checkups, I refused them.


No offense, but the Dr. probably tried to get you to do the pap smear and breast exam in order to save you money and an extra visit. No need for you to have to come back for something like that.

[okisteve]

I believe that there is too much missing from the story to make an accurate judgement about the woman and her situation.

Not going into too many details here.....I worked as a facilities manager for three hospitals here in Japan for roughly 10 years, I learned a little about the system here while working here.


I agree with you here, it is mismanaged to a degree, yet if one does a bit of research it is not that hard to figure out where one needs to go in the case of an emergency.

For those that can read Japanese or have access to someone who can, the local newspapers have a listing of what hospitals are available for emergency care.


Muku, I left out some details too, at least in my thinking about the issue. In the end, it wasn't the confusion over where to find an emergency room , but where there was any bed space so she could be admitted that was the problem. That's what I meant by an imbalance between supply and demand. When there are no empty hospital beds in a whole coverage area, what do you think the problem is?

[Muku]

When there are no empty hospital beds in a whole coverage area, what do you think the problem is?

Of course with a system and individual hospitals that keep people in hospitals probably much longer than actually needed.

Give you an example here; tonsilitis, get a tonsilectomy right? Hospital stay 7to 10 days, depending on the hospital.