Was Jesus a Fraud?

[DougP]

Christmas is nearly upon us and undoubtedly you're already seeing a lot of media coverage and decorations that tie into the holidays. This Christian holiday celebrates the birth of its savior, Jesus Christ. But was this a man of miracles and the true son of God? Or was he an opportunist who seized upon other's gullibilities and naive like nature to amass a group of followers. Much like those of recent times have done such as Joseph Smith, L Ron Hubbard and David Koresh.

Of course there are many tales and eyewitness accounts of miracles that have been performed by the son of God, Jesus Christ. Such as walking on water. Some in the scientific community believe the story of Jesus walking on water in the Sea of Galilee might have a scientific rather than a miraculous explanation. Evidently, core samples taken from the sediments at the bottom of the Galilee show that Jesus lived during a cold period during an especially bad cold spell, temperatures at night could have plunged below freezing in and around the huge inland lake. Granted the entire body of water may not have been frozen over and it would have been a rare event. However, if it happened just right, Jesus could have simply hopped out of the boat and appeared to do something physically impossible, reinforcing his divine reputation.

But even if you're highly skeptical of religion and the tales of miracles, as I am, you don't need to color Jesus as a fraud to explain them. He lived in a time when people could hardly avoid believing supernatural forces. They had no better way to understand earthquakes or disease or drought or even the weather. Add to that the fact that eyewitness testimony is often imperfect, and that the Gospels were formally written down years after the events described in them actually happened, and you can easily imagine a story about a boat trip that became more embellished over time until it was recorded as a miraculous event.

[Mad Hatter]

You nailed it... CONGRATS!!:first:

[kombu_kid]

You nailed it... CONGRATS!!

Boy, that was easy! Some in the scientific community ......believe that looking at sediment on the bottom of the ocean.......tells us that there was ice on the surface of the ocean thick enough to support a human.......and that the others in the boat didn't even notice this......oh, and wasn't this in the midst of crazy storm? Boy, those are some real scientists.

They should call this the "bash religion/worship animals" forum. I, too, am critical of organized religion......but what does man do well? I just believe that there is too much order in the universe to not have a force, a God, a creator. And I sure don't understand how certain people can pick apart the bible and the miracles in it......saying how things "most likely happened". Why even go there? Why even bother? To try and make oneself look superior by looking down on religion? Wow, you guys really stand alone and look gutsy bashing on the bible, in this day and age.

Who's forcing anybody to believe anything? Just live your life and get on with it.

[DougP]

Well if you want I suppose I could dig up the article about it and what sediment research is, what it involves, why its acceptable through out the scientific community, especially in climatology etc.. Or you could continue to ignore all that scientific stuff because a guy walking on water seems more reasonable.:) But hey you do your thing. Some call it bashing I call it offering a different perspective.


And perhaps the story today tells it like it was during a HUGE storm, kinda like that big fish I caught last week that will grow to about 12 feet by the time I tell my grand kids about it.:)

[kombu_kid]

Or you could continue to ignore all that scientific stuff because a guy walking on water seems more reasonable.

I thought "all that scientific stuff" includes going by what the story spoke of, which is, if I remember correctly, that there were rough seas and extreme wind. That doesn't sound like conditions that an "ice layer" could exist, especially any large sheets that one could walk on. Are these "scientists" serious.....or are they just purposely leaving out the "rough seas/wind" portion of the story? Only a moron could actually propose that "walking on ice" theory with the rough seas/wind conditions that the story spoke of.

As I said, miracles are what they are.......it's kinda hard to discuss their believeability from a scientific standpoint, isn't it?

And perhaps the story today tells it like it was during a HUGE storm,

Huh? The story is today what it was then.......isn't it?

[DougP]

I thought "all that scientific stuff" includes going by what the story spoke of, which is, if I remember correctly, that there were rough seas and extreme wind. That doesn't sound like conditions that an "ice layer" could exist, especially any large sheets that one could walk on. Are these "scientists" serious.....or are they just purposely leaving out the "rough seas/wind" portion of the story? Only a moron could actually propose that "walking on ice" theory with the rough seas/wind conditions that the story spoke of.

As I said, miracles are what they are.......it's kinda hard to discuss their believeability from a scientific standpoint, isn't it?



Huh? The story is today what it was then.......isn't it?

Ok I'll re-quote my self in hopes that it will better explain where I'm coming from.
Add to that the fact that eyewitness testimony is often imperfect, and that the Gospels were formally written down years after the events described in them actually happened, and you can easily imagine a story about a boat trip that became more embellished over time until it was recorded as a miraculous event.

So that being said, "all that scientific stuff" does not include going by what the story spoke of. More or less trying to determine when or around what time period the story may have occurred. Just because the story says it happened in high seas, waves, a storm etc, doesn't mean that may be the case. Sediment sample research can actually tell if a certain period of time might have been cold, warm, dry, or wet. I wouldn't base science off of a story or an eyewitness account. That would be rather foolish to do so wouldn't it?

[kombu_kid]

Then why even believe that he walked on water at all......and save a lot of time? They embellished that it was high seas, but the walking on water part was spot-on?

[DougP]

As I said, miracles are what they are.......it's kinda hard to discuss their believeability from a scientific standpoint, isn't it?

Its hard to really say if what we're being told really happened or was in fact a real miracle. Could you imagine the kind of following someone like David Blaine or Criss Angle would have had back then? Would you say what he has been doing has been miracles or magic tricks?
Criss Angel Walks On Water Video

[kombu_kid]

I'd say he has a lot of modern technology at his disposal......as well as use of cameras. Do you think anyone truly believes he's walking on water?

[DougP]

Then why even believe that he walked on water at all......and save a lot of time? They embellished that it was high seas, but the walking on water part was spot-on?

Why even question whether or not Iraq had WMDs? Why should we question the status quo or governments and other ideal? Why should we accept things for what they are if there is a hint of doubt in them. Why should religion be any different than the things you and I question the validity of often on these forums?

[DougP]

I'd say he has a lot of modern technology at his disposal......as well as use of cameras. Do you think anyone truly believes he's walking on water?

Well do you think anyone truly believed Jesus was doing the same through out time. Or that were just as duped as the crowd in the pool? Or that the story told the day after is really the same story that was written down in the gospel? I find it hard to believe that it is as such. Criss(in the video) may have had the help of modern technology on his side along with peoples gullibility. The gospels have had centuries of convincing tales in the absense of scientific explanation combined with peoples gullibility.

[kombu_kid]

Why? Because the Iraq WMD and Iran nuclear program affect us and possibly endanger us. You don't have to accept the Bible.......it may be interesting to talk about whether these miracles could have a logical explanation to them, but there are so many miracles performed by Jesus, I think it just comes down to.....you believe it or you don't. No need to bring in scientists and all......it just seems ridiculous, once you note how many different miracles were performed. Either it's true or it's B.S.......that's how I think people should look at it. I always got the feeling Jesus was never worried about being exposed as a phony, and he wasn't, which is why they hated him and killed him.

I can really "read between the lines" here on these forums and see that some people won't be happy until they "bring down the believers". I see a pattern, an agenda here at times.

[DougP]

Well that's not my aim at all, to bring down the believers. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject. I would also like to add that you, myself and anyone else in this forum or the entire world for that matter, should feel free to question anything their little heart desires. I can see how you take this and the many other threads as an attack or an attempt at creating descent among Christians and their beliefs. I would like to assure you that this is not my goal, purpose etc on this matter. I merely would like to present a different point of view and perhaps get the cogs and gears of others' minds spinning. Nothing more nothing less.

[kombu_kid]

Cool....works for me:)

[FDokinawa]

Criss Angle is cool..

[dk]

I also don't have an agenda. Heck, I mostly just enjoy reading these threads and don't have all that much time/energy to post. I'm not out to spread athiesm. I don't even really consider myself an athiest. If anything, like Doug, I'm just about putting other options on the table. Problem is, people (not saying you) get really butthurt when others poke at their religion. So in general, I just try to avoid the topic and enjoy the more light-hearted discussions.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I can really "read between the lines" here on these forums and see that some people won't be happy until they "bring down the believers". I see a pattern, an agenda here at times.

I don't think it is about "bringing down" anyone. It is about deprogramming them or curing them from their mind virus that keeps them in a delusional state.

I guess you could say we are healers -- or trying to at least.

[kombu_kid]

:rolleyes: Awwww, dude. I finally feel it's the time to use the "rolleyes" smiley. TP, if anybody, it's you who I feel like to sh** on religion and religious symbols.....so for you to say you're a "healer"......uhhhh, right.

And trust me, I do not get my nose all out of whack when we have any discussions about religion......it's just the little biting sarcastic remarks that take the fun out of the discussion, sort of like if you went to a Japanese ceremony and laughed and made fun of it. To be disrespectful and condescending towards what certain people hold dear.....all the while clinging to their "scientific data"......tells me a lot about that person. Just remember, the Earth being flat was scientific data at one time.

To me, it's obvious that none of us truly understand what this life is all about, why we're here, what's beyond this life etc. And no one here knows what I believe, what I reject, what I have a hard time believing, so.....let's just say I believe in an afterlife, and the power of goodness.

[DoctorP]

On topic about Jesus being a fraud...

Do I believe he was a fraud...no...I believe that he was perhaps smarter than the people around him, and he was an oportunist.

Now, with that said, I am not all against religion. I do not want you coming to my house to convince me that I need to join your church...but I do like feeling as though there is a higher power guiding my life. It is so nice to think that I am not completely responsible for what lies ahead of me.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Off-topic discussion between KombuKid and myself concerning AR and religion and how discussing those are handled have been moved here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2817).

[atb35]

I wouldnt say Jesus was a fraud, to my knowledge, he really didnt profit from anyone. As Doc P said, he was probably just an opportunist, or maybe he was the real massiah, who knows. That is all in what your faith guides you to believe.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... The gospels have had centuries of convincing tales in the absense of scientific explanation combined with peoples gullibility.

Scriptural narratives are convincing because they speak to the spiritual man's sneaking suspicion that this material plane of existence reflects the handiwork of his Creator in a parallel plane.

Scriptural narratives are confounding because they speak to the material man's sneaking suspicion that full awareness and meaning may be apprehended in an exclusively rational inquiry of question, answer and the presentation of physical evidence.

The rational mind and its systems of acquiring truth, such as in the Scientific Method or in jurisprudence, are not fit to acquire non-rational truths.

Those who abide so firmly in their faith in, say, the Scientfic Method that science is the only way to truth never appear to ask themselves if such a proposition can actually be substantiated through its own methods of induction or deduction.

Is the scientific method alone fit to acquire and verify the sorts of conclusions that materialists tend to draw about the cosmos?

Man's blindness affects him on two levels.

Of course, the spiritually blind want concrete evidence of their own blindness before they commit themselves to feeling around for certain universal truthes that happen to escape the grasp of logic - a brilliant invention of the material mind.

As a former scoffer of all things non-material, I'd wager that folks continue to scoff because they tend not to or are unable to imagine what lies beyond the corpus we find ourselves imprisoned in.

At last, I've been neglecting the mounting writing tasks ahead of me, and feel that my time would be better spent in them.

I scarcely think I'll return to these forums, too, as I sense the pressure on me to defend what most contributors here feel is indefensible will only distract me from the sort of work that puts food on our dinner table.

I really appreciate the opportunity to have shared ideas with you all, though we differ on so many points. It was fun.

Cheers, ib

[ja_Patriot]

Google "Jesus Fraud" and you get 650k hits. Try "Mary Whore" and 765k links come up.

Marco Polo, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, all known to have existed with much less supporting documentation - were they all frauds?

Jesus was documented to have done nothing but good and was executed for going against the grain. Too bad his life and teachings were made into a "church", essentially a political and materialistic creature.

But still, I'd rather have my children sing Christmas carols, "...What Child is This...", the sweet, sweet sound of their voices; and rather have them pray at night "..I lay my body down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep.." A habit carried silently through adulthood.

What's the alternative? Numbness, apathy, insensibility?

A belief in God and Jesus Christ has worked for me, kept me through my darkest times. I don't see the need to delve deeply into "tenets, dogma, scholastic studies and enlightenment".

While I have the utmost respect for other peoples' quest for answers, no two-bit philosophy or "dramatic smoking gun" evidence is going to tell me otherwise.

[Asshat]

Yep, those non-traditional truths can be real tough. Kinda like those paradoxial truths. :)

Good luck to you Ian.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

What's the alternative? Numbness, apathy, insensibility?


I think you'll find many aethists and scientists anything but.


After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?
-- Richard Dawkins, excerpt from Chapter I, "The Anaesthetic of Familiarity (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/dawkins3.htm#ANAESTHETIC)," of Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder (1998)



The feeling of awed wonder that science can give us is one of the highest experiences of which the human psyche is capable. It is a deep aesthetic passion to rank with the finest that music and poetry can deliver. It is truly one of the things that make life worth living and it does so, if anything, more effectively if it convinces us that the time we have for living is quite finite.
-- Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder (1998), p. x., quoted from Victor J Stenger (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/stenger.htm), Has Science Found God? (2001)

[thistle]

JaPatriot, I have to say that I agree with your post completely. Like quite a few more.

To me, I grew up very close to troubled Northern Ireland, and all I can say is that religion is not something you want to discuss/talk about on a forum with people who have different faith from yourself.
That is how many bloody wars have began.
Why is it that 'men' want to bring this subject up again and again and pound it with a stone till there is nothing left.
Nobody has the answers to all those questions and beliefs that you all keep bringing up.

[Asshat]

Why is it that 'men' want to bring this subject up again and again and pound it with a stone till there is nothing left.


Because man does wonder why he was born, and does marvel at a shiny planet and does believe what he believes and feels it a moral imprerative to share this belief.

After all, a man is right about his beliefs while another man in complete disagreement is also right, and this is one of my examples of different truths. If truth is a specific thing for all men, then the two different truths between men is the paradox. Not the truth itself-which makes discussion of any belief be it dogma, or politik is shaky ground.

[DougP]

Doesn't mean one should stop asking "why?" or "was this how it happened?"

I can understand peoples desire to just let it be. But its my nature and many others to question things. I still don't see how the "message" be it good or bad is any reason to stop questioning the validity of a story or the origin of man. To stop asking, to halt discovering, to just accept things for what they are and take everything at face value would mean to cease being human.

[DougP]

Because man does wonder why he was born, and does marvel at a shiny planet and does believe what he believes and feels it a moral imprerative to share this belief.

After all, a man is right about his beliefs while another man in complete disagreement is also right, and this is one of my examples of different truths. If truth is a specific thing for all men, then the two different truths between men is the paradox. Not the truth itself-which makes discussion of any belief be it dogma, or politik is shaky ground.

To a point but to continue to believe the world is flat or lightning is Zeus's rage doesn't exactly equate to being right. Just saying there are those instances where proving the status quo wrong and going against standard beliefs was in fact progressive. Imagine if people had just ignored such discoveries.

[Asshat]

To a point but to continue to believe the world is flat or lightning is Zeus's rage doesn't exactly equate to being right. Just saying there are those instances where proving the status quo wrong and going against standard beliefs was in fact progressive. Imagine if people had just ignored such discoveries.

Sure-but then we are not talking strict science here, we are talking about belief in something not seen or (arguably) felt.

Also, in current American society, stating one is an atheist, or even agnostic is death to a politician, and even an unpopular stance here. (against the status quo)

I guess what I am saying is that in matters of the heart, there is no right or wrong for two individuals. There is only right for the individual.

[DougP]

That I can understand.

[dk]

I guess what I am saying is that in matters of the heart, there is no right or wrong for two individuals. There is only right for the individual.
I can't remember which book exactly it was in by Kurt Vonnegut, but I'm thinking it was Timequake. Anyway, he commented that although he was an athiest, his sister was very religious. Rather than pounding away at her faith, he stated that although people use religion as a way to understand and survive the world we live in, it is not necessarily wrong. He felt that his sister needed religion while he did not, and he just let it be.

Very smart guy.

[P_chan]

I can't remember which book exactly it was in by Kurt Vonnegut, but I'm thinking it was Timequake. Anyway, he commented that although he was an athiest, his sister was very religious. Rather than pounding away at her faith, he stated that although people use religion as a way to understand and survive the world we live in, it is not necessarily wrong. He felt that his sister needed religion while he did not, and he just let it be.

Very smart guy.

My thoughts exactly!

[Fonze]

Then why tell us that its a fairy tale or that we need to be cured. I think thats my only problem that and the negative op names. Yet some people like Ja explained believe everything else in books. Like Kombu said nobody is forcing it down on you especially here in OKI. I agree with dougp though that we can ask why and question thing but when someone goes negative then let us all go negative and dont censor anything that the mods dont like

[DougP]

Yeah I definitely am not too fond of the idea or term of "curing" people. Sounds an awful lot like cleansing. Something the Nazis seemed to be about. Me, I just like having a free range of thought and like to share other points of views on certain things. I know pretty darn well that what I have to say may fall on deaf ears and that I can't change peoples beliefs. I wouldn't want to do anything like that. Doing so would go against my beliefs in freedom of religion and expression. But if I happen to mention something others see as eye opening or vise versa than that's fine by me. Who knows, I could encounter something during one of these discussions that changes my outlook on things.

Another thing to consider. When one is bringing into question others' beliefs and religion, in a sense they're also inviting others in to speak on its(religion's) behalf. In other words use this opportunity to do the same. Share with those who have questions, what inspires you the most about what is in fact being questioned.

[ja_Patriot]

...I guess what I am saying is that in matters of the heart, there is no right or wrong for two individuals. There is only right for the individual....

Or matters of the mind and soul.

Exactly the point. Why should the opinion of Dawkins and the creativity of Vonnegut have any bearing on one's personal belief whether Jesus was a fraud or not? Why should anyone have an influence on the manner with which your children are raised, how you conduct business, or even your state of mind at your hour of death?

If there are questions, ask them. And perhaps even state your own opinion as best as you can on why you arrived at the conclusion that, for you personally, Jesus was or wasn't a "fraud". Or you're not quite sure what to think or say.

I don't think anyone here is going to convince anyone else to alter their convictions any time soon with "new" evidence, as though in a contest of who's "smarter" in googling which you find in those other threads.

Instead, just share your views. I shared mine and I'd be interested in yours.

[kombu_kid]

Do I believe he was a fraud...no...I believe that he was perhaps smarter than the people around him, and he was an oportunist.

Hmmmm. That's a bit vague. So, are you saying that you don't believe he performed miracles and that he isn't the Son of God? Because if you are, how can you say he's not a fraud?

I believe other religions such as Judaism and Islam recognize Jesus as being a "good man" or something to that effect. (I admit, I know very little about their views toward Jesus) My point is, how can anyone not believe Jesus is the Son of God and performed miracles and have any good view of him?

That's like calling me a great financial planner who ripped people off.

[DougP]

Well one would might say anyone through out history was a "good man" but it doesn't mean he has to be the son of God or perform miracles to be adorned with such a title. Title of course being that of a "good man" Jesus could have been a good man, an opportunist and not the son of God all in the same.

[kombu_kid]

Yeah, but when he claimed to be??? When he said he is "one with the Father", and that he would ascend into heaven???? If someone says "Jesus was a good man".........I mean, knowing that he made these claims....how could anyone respect such a delusional liar? That seems hilarious.

[DougP]

Well, when the wool is over the eyes, its hard for that person to realy know now isn't it. I mean he doesn't have to be a good man either to be called a good man now does he. People just have to believe, er rather, he just has to make others believe that he is, in fact, a good man.

[DougP]

But in all honesty who is really to say? It is possible but there's no real way for us to know. Not unless we were to send the camera crew from MTV's "Punkt" back in time via Bill and Ted's phone booth or Doc Brown's Delorean, to uncover the truth. I suppose we can only guess, that is if we want to.

[kombu_kid]

No man!! Let me break it down here.....for someone or some other religion to say....."I believe Jesus was a good man but not the Son of God"....either NOW or THEN or ANYTIME, how can they, on the one hand, respect him and say he was good, while on the other hand, not believe what he claimed?

Wouldn't the person or religion saying he was a good man, yet not God......have to also conclude that he was a liar or psychotic? Then the "good man" title by them seems contradictory and ridiculous!

‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

[DougP]

I'm sure about whom you are talking about. Are you referring to those who dispute that he was truly the son of God and that he performed miracle? Or are you talking about his apostles and those who came along much later praising his work?

It would be rather ridiculous as you say for one person to believe he was a fraud and still praise him as a miracle worker or a saint, prophet etc. Although anyone else who didn't know either way and still acclaimed him to be a good man sort of falls into a gray area. Don't think we could really fault them for that.

[DougP]

At the same time some may not believe he was the son of God but still believe he did some good. They might have thought he was missing a few screws for claiming to be the son of God but maybe he did some good for people and others recognized that and that alone.

[P_chan]

You couldn't fit a camera crew in a DeLorean.

[ja_Patriot]

It is a "show me the money" society.

We pay good money to see David Copperfield make a locomotive "disappear" and know that it's all an illusion, so it's perfectly acceptable that one questions if the paranormal deeds of a Person who is said to have existed two thousand years ago are hocus-pocus, borderline delusional, even fraudulent.

We'd gladly dole out the moolah if only we could see the tricks - live and in living color.

How much more is credibility stretched when this same Person claims that He is God, "one in being with the Father", a "Holy Trinity"?

Furthermore, His principal advocates seem to justify and warrant for themselves rich, opulent lives, contrary to His teachings.

From the Gospel of St. Matthew: ...Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.."

One wonders if He implied this to include the entire line of successors to St. Peter, all those Bishops and Popes, with the latest one clad in Prada and haute-couture designer attires; and those Evangelicals.

But then, if we look at ourselves, scientifically we, human beings, are using just 8 to 20 percent of our brains, depending on which study. Where ultimately the usage of the remaining the 80 to 92% of the gray mass will lead to is yet to be known. Is what is considered as supernatural today simply hoi-polloi in the future?

For me, personally, while skeptical of churches and not a practicing "Christian" as such, I seek no quarrel with my God and stand on my belief in Jesus Christ.

Now, isn't that really going against the grain, so to speak, especially in this forum and its audience!

It is called faith.

[DougP]

I sure wouldn't call you crazy for thinking that way.:)

[ja_Patriot]

I'll take that as a complement. Your OP in a way helped reinforce my own faith. Hope you find your answers.

[Fonze]

These have really helped me reinforce MY FAITH.

[Tony Stacks]

Jesus was not a fraud.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Naw, not JC! Only those who came after and corrupted the gospel of love for their own ulterior motives are frauds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/otokonoyama/PrinceLOvesexy.jpg

[okisteve]

I think the floodgates have just been opened....

[Asshat]

One of the truely great musicians of our times. His own singing and composing is off the wall, but as a lyrisist, he is amazing. Much music out there was composed by him as well, yet he is unknown for that.