Join the Okinawa Freethought/Atheist Society

[OkiMike]

Are you an agnostic, atheist, freethinker or otherwise skeptical to religious claims? Or do you consider yourself religious but have doubts and questions and want to talk with someone? If so, come join us for discussions over coffee.

We started our first meeting last week and meet every Friday night from about 7 - 8:30 pm in Chatan.

For location and directions or just more information, drop me a line here or email me at sndtrk2000@hotmail.com

[Nidieux]

Hi, OkiMike! I'll be there (again)! Really appreciate that you're providing a welcoming forum for those who question the superstition(s) du jour. Many people are tired of having religion shoved down their throats morning, noon, and night, and of being characterized as amoral for being thinking human beings capable of living ethical lives without belief in an imaginary Tyrant in the Sky. Looking forward to meeting some new folks!

[dk]

Could you guys possibly consider posting some of your meeting notes on these forums? I'm interested to hear what you guys actually discuss outside of "religion sucks", if you guys discuss that at all. :)

Feel free to bring your members here to chat it up on these forums as well. :)

And that's an open invitation for religions organizations as well. Fell free to invite believers in here to put some balance on this debate.

[OkiMike]

Our first meeting was really just about introducing ourselves: our names, what we do, what we like to do, what we want to do, etc. Nothing formal.

If I recall correctly, after the introductions were done, we took off in conversation about several of the ideas that cropped up during the introduction time. We talked about religion in Okinawa, and in the United States, and about how we'd each like to see the group progress.

I have a feeling that, depending on who else is interested in attending, we'll continue to do introductions for a bit, but also branch off into discussion over several pieces that were passed around during and after the meeting.

[dk]

Sounds cool OkiMike. :)

[DougP]

Do you guys have punch and pie?:D I wouldn't mind attending and taking some notes though.

[dk]

Do you guys have punch and pie?:D
Oh, yeah, totally. You've got to have punch and pie! :first:

[OkiMike]

Just Kool Aid. Haha....

Oreos are made available to the first person in each meeting who can successfully recite the Constitution of the United States by memory.

[OkiMike]

No, we meet at Starbucks so whatever you want to eat/drink is available.

:)

[TheLastDon]

Aww man I want some Kool Aide.:D:dead::eek:

[DougP]

So the Starbucks in Chatan on 58? Or the one in Mihama?

[Fonze]

sounds like you guys are turning into a non religous religion in a way. Which is cool just a thought.

[DougP]

Welcome to the church of no church:D

[TheLastDon]

L Ron Hubbard anyone? Scientology, Dianetics, Church of Scientology Anyone?:D

Church of The Last Don. :thumbup1: Anyone?

[socalheart]

Church of The Last Don.

How to stop a thread dead cold in its tracks... heeheehee. :p

[DougP]

Man I bet George Lucas is going to looked at as the next L Ron Hubbard. Not saying he's intentionally starting a new religion but a hundred years from now he may look rather prophetic to some.:D

[Fonze]

not to go off topic but did you guys hear that germany is trying to ban scientology.

[DougP]

yes I did... interesting.. haven't read much on it except they thought it was conflicting or infringing on the German constitution. Need to look that up again.
We had a lot of those guys around Clearwater, Florida.. spooky people.

[Fonze]

spooky really, how?

[TheLastDon]

not to go off topic but did you guys hear that germany is trying to ban scientology.

I think Germany is the only country that does not recognize it as a religion.

I could be wrong, all I have to do is wait for "someone" to confirm it for me.:D

[DougP]

I think Germany is the only country that does not recognize it as a religion.

I could be wrong, all I have to do is wait for "someone" to confirm it for me.:D

Scientology is not considered illegitimate in the US, Spain, Taiwan, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Australia, Sweden, and New Zealand. A few others don't recognize it though. Some countries, mostly in Europe, look at Scientology as a potentially dangerous cult.

check out the map on this page here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Membership_and_rel_rec_of_CoS.png
dark orange = Countries that call Scientology a religion
orange = Countries with a Church of Scientology
peach = Countries with a Scientology mission
gray = Countries with no significant Scientology presence

[Fonze]

I wonder how china controls it.

[DougP]

I wonder how china controls it.

With a little bit of Kung Fu and MSG!:D Oh.... Doug made an ethnic joke.:w00t:

Hope China doesn't read that.:D

[Fonze]

Chinas already all around you and even inside you.

[TheLastDon]

With a little bit of Kung Fu and MSG!:D Oh.... Doug made an ethnic joke.:w00t:

Hope China doesn't read that.:D

I would be more worried about Scientology reading this thread.:D

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I wonder how china controls it.
Probably the same way they handled Falun gong...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#1999_and_beyond_in_mainland_China

[Fonze]

Falun is banned though and i dont think scientology is. Probably all that hollywood lefty money.

[OkiMike]

Mihama Media Center Starbucks.

[Krazy8]

Why'd U want to go atheist when U could go Scientologist?

[123456]

Well, this was our second meeting of the group, and we discussed more about what we wanted it to look like. Despite our range of beliefs, personalities, and opinions, we all seem to share a love of books and knowledge. Plus, we all seemed to be thinkng about some important issues that ranged from ethical to humanitarian to political. I would love to see this group expand to include more freethinkers along all spectrums. Why not join us on Friday nights...we don't pass a collection plate, but we do pass books around....bring something that really speaks to you and we will discuss the ideas. We also are thinking about having a theme or question, something like a socrates cafe to keep us thinking and growing. So, if you find yourself questioning religion or just want to get together and discuss the meaning of life for a few hours a week, please join us at Starbucks, 7PM Friday nights.

[ststephen65]

love the idea, mostly busy fri nights. will try to come to the next one

[Asshat]

I am curious about the purpose of this. I can make several guesses. From the OP and the other one-post wonder comment, is it a hobby for people who like "thinking about shit and seek validation of those ideas?"

Or is it simply a forum for debate?

I'm usually too busy doing the exact opposite- destroying brain cells instead of exercizing them. It sounds okay, but discussing the philosophy of others found in books pales in comparison to coming up with original thought that runs contrary to the whatever clothing the Emporor is wearing this year.

I'd have to be with people who do not think in lineal terms-who can accept alternate realities are possible with different souls. Hard to find in American culture.

[ststephen65]

I am curious about the purpose of this. I can make several guesses. From the OP and the other one-post wonder comment, is it a hobby for people who like "thinking about shit and seek validation of those ideas?"

Or is it simply a forum for debate?

I'm usually too busy doing the exact opposite- destroying brain cells instead of exercizing them. It sounds okay, but discussing the philosophy of others found in books pales in comparison to coming up with original thought that runs contrary to the whatever clothing the Emporor is wearing this year.

I'd have to be with people who do not think in lineal terms-who can accept alternate realities are possible with different souls. Hard to find in American culture.


i wanna be in YOUR club....

[123456]

Here is a link to the Freedom from Religion site, which might answer some of your questions about what a freethinker is and what we discuss in the group. Right now, we are just meeting for coffee, talking and sharing books. We might have some questions or debates in the future. We are not yet big enough to have an agenda or anything like that! Please feel free to stop by any time you don't have something to do Friday evening....we meet at 7, so there is plenty of time to have dinner first or go out afterwards. Plus, you don't have to stay and you don't have to ever come back if you don't like the group.

Have a great weekend. Here is the site: http://ffrf.org/nontracts/freethinker.php

[TheNoNamedOne]

I am curious about the purpose of this. I can make several guesses. From the OP and the other one-post wonder comment,...

Had to go back and check to make sure that wasn't me. Wheeeew. Glad it wasn't.

...is it a hobby for people who like "thinking about shit and seek validation of those ideas?"

I think the purpose could be that of wondering if certain thoughts on the Bible, or any religion for that matter, are valid or not and to discuss them to see if they hold up to scrutiny. I don't think it is about seeking validation, but testing them through reason via discussion to see if they are valid -- or at least seem to be.

I think it could also be for fellowship, no different than Christians or Muslims wanting to get together to enjoy talking about things and beliefs similar to one another.

Or is it simply a forum for debate?

I don't think it is a forum for debating "against" atheism, but perhaps debating different concepts within atheism. Though, I could see this group reaching out to churches or other orgs to set up formal debates between them.

It sounds okay, but discussing the philosophy of others found in books pales in comparison to coming up with original thought that runs contrary to the whatever clothing the Emporor is wearing this year.

Sure, epiphanies are the greatest, but minus that building on the existing works of others and branching out, too, is rewarding. I geuss that is kinda like evolution or natural selection -- choose the best to keep pushing forward.

I'd have to be with people who do not think in lineal terms-who can accept alternate realities are possible with different souls. Hard to find in American culture.

I don't know, Umi. Can two things contradicting one another at the same time be true at the same time? An interesting point you have lead us to here.

[revolt]

Man I would like to go one night just to listen. I'm not much of a talker but I love hearing different things from different people. It makes me think, then get confused, but it's all good. I'll drop by when I get back to Oki.

[OkiMike]

The two meetings so far have really just been the same three individuals getting together to talk about our week and any news of interest even if it's not particularly related to atheism. As we shared some books/papers in the first meeting, we also took some time to discuss any points of interest in what we'd read during the week.

Freethought, of course, encompasses a range of beliefs/philosophies/attitudes and has, so far, been a chance for us to, at the very least, have someone to talk with who isn't the same ol' FaithHead we work with/around each week.

Of course we welcome believers with questions as well. But if you're thinking of coming around to preach or proseletyze, save yourself a trip and don't.

[Asshat]

[QUOTE=OkiMike;46449]Freethought, of course, encompasses a range of beliefs/philosophies/attitudes and has, so far, been a chance for us to, at the very least, have someone to talk with who isn't the same ol' FaithHead we work with/around each week.[QUOTE]

Sounds okay. I am not one of those who needs to examine (for instance) the relavance of the bible, since I do not believe any of it is a divine work- just the work of men, not unlike any other book I might pick up.

Yet I will never refer to myself as an atheist because (don't tell Ian) my definition of God is all encompassing and refers to all that I can not understand- like the vast distances of the universe, and the creation of life within the womb. My definition also includes that which is inherently good in all humans. That which is evil, I attribute to that which is human purely.

Not many churches will preach my brand of God, moreover, I wont lower myself to needing any type of approval or assistance in my beliefs. Congregations make me sick. I can show you some right here and now (love that term from S. King) where the sermon consists of everyone putting on their finery, and looking "so fine" followed by the mandatory tour through the base PX where they clog up the aisles complimenting each other on how good the look.:barf:

End of that rant.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I don't know, Umi. Can two things contradicting one another at the same time be true at the same time? An interesting point you have lead us to here.

Yeah, it's called paradox.

[Isaak Brodsky]

[QUOTE=OkiMike;46449]Yet I will never refer to myself as an atheist because (don't tell Ian) my definition of God is all encompassing and refers to all that I can not understand - like the vast distances of the universe, and the creation of life within the womb. My definition also includes that which is inherently good in all humans. That which is evil, I attribute to that which is human purely.

Fantastic sample of free-thought!

This is the sort of perspective in those who profess themselves to be free-thinking that I find most engaging, most in keeping with the universally accepted definition of free-thinking.

Folks like you Mr. Uminchu, and I'm sure, no doubt, you yourself have got to be a delight at cocktail parties, beer bashes, or wine tasting!! (I prefer red wine.)

I'd be honored to share a table with you.

[Asshat]

Yeah, it's called paradox.

This is the linear thought I refer to that is so inherent in Western thinking.

Study the five laws encompassed within the Lotus Sutra. You may not agree, but perhaps it will expand your thoughts about phillosophy past the black and white, or at least lead you to understand that duality of reality is a common understanding among some people.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Interesting.

Mr. Uminchu, could you elaborate on what you mean by paradox as a linear way of looking at apparent contradictions - perhaps in another thread if you feel that this one is not the place.

Cheers, ib

[TheNoNamedOne]

Can two things contradicting one another at the same time be true at the same time? An interesting point you have lead us to here.

Yeah, it's called paradox.

Certainly as a thought exercise of some sorts. But in reality can a paradox exist? Remember, it is claimed by some that God is real.

I have never seen a black white horse, have you? Have you ever seen two separate things of equal size occupy the exact same space at the exact same time (let alone three i.e. The Trinity)?

I would be interested to see if you could offer a real (not a word or thought exercise) paradox that exists, Ian -- one that is observable and has been recognized by all those who have witnessed it? A tangible paradox -- like this apple is an orange, so that we could see that it really is possible for the Father to be the Son.

Thank you.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Webster's defines a paradox as an assertation or proposition seeming absurd, yet true in fact, a seeming contradiction.

In which area of inquiry are you most interested in paradox?

ethics, literature, or logic?

[Isaak Brodsky]

I tell you, in heaven there will be more rejoicing over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine souls that are justified, and have no need of repentance. (Luke 15:6-7)

but

There can't be repentance without sin. Thus we have the paradox of good coming out of evil. The evil of sin is a necessary prerequisite for the joy that is occasioned by repentance.

consequently

The central defect of evil is not sin but the refusal to acknowledge sin. (M. Scott Peck)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Webster's defines a paradox as an assertation or proposition seeming absurd, yet true in fact, a seeming contradiction.

In which area of inquiry are you most interested in paradox?

ethics, literature, or logic?

I am asking you to provide us with a tangible paradox -- one that exists in a physical state -- not some thought exercise.

I don't think you can point to any.

Show us a white black horse or the apple that is the orange -- like the Father being the Son and the Son the Father of each other.

[Isaak Brodsky]

I looked in the mirror this morning while brushing my teeth and suddenly noticed that I am - in the post-structuralist sense - many persons in one.

As humans are fairly complex creatures, I remembered that I am an orphan, an uncle, a nephew, a son, a dad, a husband, an ex-husband, a brother, a cousin, a former boxer, a former track star, a former lead singer in a punk band, a former atheist, a former patient in the local trauma unit, a former campus porn star, an academic, a present sampler of fine wine, an editor, a writer, etc..

I think I've covered the fact that we are ourselves a paradox.

To the materialist/positivist, an accidental assemblage of atoms who nevertheless possess astounding skills at questioning their unlikely but amazing rise from the primordial soup.

To the Christian seeking eternal peace, having to die to be saved, having to serve to be served, having to be last to be first, having to lose onself to find oneself.

Oh yeah, in zoology, a paradox albino is an animal that exhibits the traits of an albino, with little melanin and albino eyes, but may have black or pigmented blotches or half albino, half normal eyes. This trait is most commonly seen with reptiles, though it is still a rare occurrence. It has been seen with boa constrictors, leopard geckos, iguanas and corn snakes as a few examples. These specimens are prized pets for collectors and prices are much higher than the average albino.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Oh yeah, in zoology, a paradox albino is an animal that exhibits the traits of an albino, with little melanin and albino eyes, but may have black or pigmented blotches or half albino, half normal eyes. This trait is most commonly seen with reptiles, though it is still a rare occurrence. It has been seen with boa constrictors, leopard geckos, iguanas and corn snakes as a few examples. These specimens are prized pets for collectors and prices are much higher than the average albino.[/SIZE][/FONT]

C'mon, Ian. I know you are much better than passing other material off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox#Genetic_Paradox) as if it were your own. We have a word for that, don't we? Please quote, link, and give credit where it is due -- or at least internalize the information and paraphrase it into your own words.

But even here with this genetic paradox we are talking about separate traits compartmentalized within a whole. The separate traits themselves do not exhibit two things at the same time.

Remember one of the basic tenets of reality -- a thing is a thing and is not another thing.

[Isaak Brodsky]

Interesting definition and simplification of the phenomenon "reality."

Nearly eliminates the need for ontology and hermeneutics as well as cosmology.

Me thinks you are relying here on a highly restrictive unothodox definition of "reality."

Would you buy cacao as both a medicinal elixir and a treat in your chocolate?

[Isaak Brodsky]

C'mon, Ian. I know you are much better than passing other material off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox#Genetic_Paradox) as if it were your own. We have a word for that, don't we? Please quote, link, and give credit where it is due -- or at least internalize the information and paraphrase it into your own words.

See the chasm between intent and perception?

[TheNoNamedOne]

See the chasm between intent and perception?

What do you mean, Ian? Regardless of intent or perception, you were caught posting something that you should have given credit for. Rather than simply saying, "You are correct, I will go back and edit it," you kick up this fog of "intent and perception." Because of behaviour like this from a Christian, is it any wonder why others believe early Christians were dishonest for stealing the stories from other religions without honestly referencing the source from whence they came? You have given us a microcosmic look of the Christian macro myth.

[Isaak Brodsky]

If forgetting to encircle the Wiki words with the HTML brackets for quotes engenders this kind of response to my hasty pasting, what can I say??

I'll be more careful next time?

You've really earned your tenth degree black belt in conclusion jumpin'.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Ian, it wasn't so much you forgetting, it was more on the lines of you not replying with just the more simple and more appropriate, "Oops, just forgot. I'll go fix it." And that's it.

Rather than that you decide to answer with "intent and perception." It was more about your resisting a simple thing that brought about my "micro/macro" comparison. The resistance made the "conclusion" valid for as long as it lasted. It seems over now, though.

[123456]

We braved the rain for another stimulating discussion. One thing someone wants to try is a kind of icebreaker game called coincidence connection. We go around and say a coincidence that happened in our life that a believer might attribute to guidance from a higher power. For example, we were discussing some common threads of creation stories, and someone brought up Joseph Campbell's A Hero with a Thousand Faces. Without any prior planning, our newest member pulled a copy of another book by Joseph Campbell out of his bag! Coincidence or higher power at work? We also discussed some great web-sites with an emphaisis on humor. The book I came home with this week was: The Gospal of the Flying Spaghetti Monster." Google that if you want a good laugh!

[Asshat]

The Gospal of the Flying Spaghetti Monster." Google that if you want a good laugh!

A friend and I were discussing theology (he is Jewish, yet on the agnostic side) and we checked out their website.

I wonder what the open-minded religious person would think about it. The parallels were just astounding!

[123456]

Just a quick note for anyone who is wondering about the group. We've been meeting consistently for about a month now, and we have had some great discussions over coffee. We're even thinking about getting T-shirts! We'd love to see more interested people to join our discussions and help generate ideas! Here is part of a poem called The Low Road by Marge Piercy to get people motivated to come out!

Two people can keep each other
sane, can give support, conviction,
love, massage, hope, sex.
Three people are a delegation,
a committee, a wedge. With four
you can play bridge and start
an organization. With six
you can rent a whole house,
eat pie for dinner with no
seconds, and hold a fund raising party.
A dozen make a demonstration.
A hundred fill a hall.
A thousand have solidarity and your own newsletter;
ten thousand, power and your own paper;
a hundred thousand, your own media;
ten million, your own country.

It goes on one at a time,
it starts when you care
to act, it starts when you do
it again and they said no,
it starts when you say We
and know who you mean, and each
day you mean one more.

[OkiMike]

Well, we would definitely welcome anyone else to come out. I have received a few emails from people asking questions about the group, some by coincidence and others out of interest on the part of the person writing me.

Again, if you are an atheist, agnostic, freethinker, or can have a friendly conversation with these types of thinkers or just want to know more about how /what/why we think as we do, come on down on Friday evenings to Mihama and hang out with us over coffee.

You can email or PM me for more information or with questions.

[DocTurtle]

Well, your meetings sound like a weekend version of the forum :p Not trying to steal your thunder or play down your group.
If you guys (on girls) feel like once a week isn't enough, please feel free to post here on the forum. We are always up for a good flam...I mean intresting debate that is kept on topic and with the utmost respect for one another. :D
Seriously though, we all seem to enjoy a good debate and if nothing else a fresh wind to fan the sails of free thought and stirring up the stagnant masses of lemmings.
Hope to see you guys posting more!!

[retributionnk]

Well, your meetings sound like a weekend version of the forum :p Not trying to steal your thunder or play down your group.
If you guys (on girls) feel like once a week isn't enough, please feel free to post here on the forum. We are always up for a good flam...I mean intresting debate that is kept on topic and with the utmost respect for one another. :D
Seriously though, we all seem to enjoy a good debate and if nothing else a fresh wind to fan the sails of free thought and stirring up the stagnant masses of lemmings.
Hope to see you guys posting more!!

Indeed!! Real atheists shouldn't be assembling anyway!! (just kidding, of course) PM me with some info about when and where you guys meet up, I'm interested.

[123456]

Okinawa Freethought Society is still meeting for coffee each week. We know there are other people out there who consider themselves atheist, agnostic, freethinkers, brights or secular humanists. We want to find new members so that we can plan things like movie nights, a book club, debates and other events. Churches are well-represented in Okinawa. Don't you want your voice to be heard as well?

[OkiMike]

The meeting time has been changed to 8:30 pm (same location) this week to accomodate some newcomers. Email myself of 123456 for more info.

[davidallen]

I am just woindering. Is the okinawa Freethoguht Society still having meetings? How many people are actively involved?

Thanks, David.

[RenaissanceMan]

I have never met an athiest, just people either mad or offended by God, or people of God....but I have met quite a few agnostics. Just the fact that someone says they don't believe in "God" would mean they do...otherwise they would not say "God." Ironic. But to as many as called upon the name of the Lord, they will be saved, they will come to know Jesus, the advocate with the father, the mediator between God and man. Jesus, the Sinless Lamb that takes away the world's sins, sins none could pay for but Him. The same Jesus that says, He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying....Behold I come quickly.

[OkiMike]

In one sense, definitions matter: A-theism is simply a position that "lacks theism". And in that sense, it's not the atheists that have to define the "God". They simply take the definitions given to them by the various God-believing theists themselves and say, "No, not good enough. Doesn't make sense. I can reject that."

On the other hand, everyone is free to call themselves as they wish because we each approach the issue from different circumstances and some labels have different nuances to each of us. Of course, this is a two-way street. No doubt, there are some definitions of "Christian" or "theist" that you would not consider representative of your particular beliefs.

Regardless, there are plenty of atheists here in Okinawa. Or, if you prefer, call us igtheists since, as you pointed out, the definition of "God" doesn't even begin to make sense to us.

Cheers,

Mike

[RenaissanceMan]

Well then, perhaps you'd prefer it if I called myself an igtheist.

In one sense, definitions matter. On the other hand, everyone is free to call themselves as they wish because we each approach the issue from different circumstances. And it's a two-way street as I'm sure there are some definitions of "Christian" or "theist" that you would not consider representative of your particular beliefs.

Regardless, there are plenty of atheists here in Okinawa.

Cheers,

Mike

So what exactly about God are you either angry about, or don't understand?

[uriel]

so where do i fit in, i wonder? i have lost faith in the "Church", but not God. I still believe God exists, I still believe there is a Heaven and Hell, I just don't believe that if you aren't Christian you are going to Hell like I've been taught for 20+ years. If God is as Christians say he is, there is no way that those of the Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic (if you are Christian), or Christian (if you are Catholic), are going to hell strictly because you aren't Christian, or Catholic, or Islam. I refuse to believe it. All of these religions seem to teach the same overall message, and yet, some, like christianity for example, believe that if you are neither christian nor catholic, God has forsaken you and you are going to hell. I refuse that train of thought. flat out refuse.

[OkiMike]

So what exactly about God are you either angry about, or don't understand?

Please re-read my post. I just finished editing it to help clarify the issue.

[OkiMike]

so where do i fit in, i wonder? i have lost faith in the "Church", but not God. I still believe God exists, I still believe there is a Heaven and Hell, I just don't believe that if you aren't Christian you are going to Hell like I've been taught for 20+ years. If God is as Christians say he is, there is no way that those of the Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic (if you are Christian), or Christian (if you are Catholic), are going to hell strictly because you aren't Christian, or Catholic, or Islam. I refuse to believe it. All of these religions seem to teach the same overall message, and yet, some, like christianity for example, believe that if you are neither christian nor catholic, God has forsaken you and you are going to hell. I refuse that train of thought. flat out refuse.

Hello uriel,

Given your definitions, you sound very much to me like a universalist. If you're unfamiliar with universalism, you can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalist.

After I deconverted from my particular Christian denomination, I considered myself a universalist for a period of time as I thought about things much like you do now. With a bit more study I further deconverted to agnostic and, in time, atheism.

I suppose you could best pidgeonhole me as an "igtheistic agnostic atheist" since I don't believe any such thing as a God or gods exists (at least out of all those who've been described as having existed), though I suppose I'm open to the thought, but don't see my wishful thinking as pragmatic since the idea of "God existing" is, itself, nonsensical.

My opinions of course.

[Blues]

zealous atheist or theist = :barf:

Don't care what anybody does or doesn't believe in, keep it to themselves. :first:

[Asshat]

As a good Christian, everything about God I don't understand, I simply ascribe to be "His will."

Just because God made time warp, a 13-billion year-old universe, and ensures small babies are killed by angry men, drunken drivers, or demented mothers doesn't mean He isn't real. It simply means it is His will, and I am too mortal to understand.

Right? Do I sound angry at God? Or am I just dismissive of fellow humans who believe in ghosts, a weird mix of Peganism and Christianity, and the power of men over women?

Idiotic that someone who holds a faith-based belief next to their heart would ask "what do you not understand?"

[OkiMike]

zealous atheist or theist = :barf:

Don't care what anybody does or doesn't believe in, keep it to themselves. :first:

That might be fine if peoples' religious beliefs didn't affect their actions and the actions of others. Unfortunately they do.

People like myself feel obligated to speak out against faith not only because such beliefs are irrational and unrealistic, but because they cause real, legitimate harm in the world.

[Blues]

You can preach all the science and logic all you want and people are still irrational and unrealistic.

Religion does good things as well, and most people hide behind religion as a front of ulterior motives behind the bad actions. Greed being one of them.

[OkiMike]

You can preach all the science and logic all you want and people are still irrational and unrealistic.

Religion does good things as well, and most people hide behind religion as a front of ulterior motives behind the bad actions. Greed being one of them.

I am sure that, as you say, there will always be such people. But it doesn't mean they have to be in the majority and be allowed to say what they want without controversy. I, for one, am an example where such dialogue actually helped me "see the light". As an evangelical, mission-oriented Christian for 24 years, once I allowed myself to dialogue with those who held different views, I opened up and, eventually, was able to change. So I know first hand that such discussions can be fruitful. Perhaps you don't care at all, but inevitably someone reading these posts does.

Your last comment reminds me of the saying, "Good people do good things and bad people do evil things. But for a good person to do evil--that requires religion."

[Asshat]

I am sure that, as you say, there will always be such people. But it doesn't mean they have to be in the majority and be allowed to say what they want without controversy.

Why not? Do you hate your Mother? Do you love her? Prove it either way.

Religion is much the same, and by that, I mean dogma, belief, intuition, emotion, etc.

So I ask you, why is it important to set about converting others to atheism? Why is that any more or less important than a Moslim trying to convert you to Islam?

Or is it all about controversy? In your words, I see a great deal of "Americanisms" where it is vital to draw a solid line, or a make little perfect boxes where we all should fit.

What you are doing is making huge noises about quantifying disbelief in faith-based idiology where someone like me realizes that there are different realities for each of us.

I am really into the universe- how it was made, how old it is, mass, distance, power, etc. Although I can quote light-year distances, and masses of black holes, I have a real hard time grasping the concepts. More importantly, I have a hard time figuring out how this all occured. Nature? Universal Law? Either way, it all comes back to something more powerful than I. I have no problem with someone calling Nature God by the way, nor do I believe Jesus Christ is anymore the son of that God than I am. We both are. :)

[OkiMike]

Why not? Do you hate your Mother? Do you love her? Prove it either way.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's be clear on something. I only responded to this thread after all these months because RennaisanceMan posted a statement that I disagreed with. How are your questions related to what we're talking about?

To the point, I am concerned with the validity, i.e., the truthfulness of what one believes. I'm not impressed by people merely believing something. I want to know the reasons for their belief and, moreover, why they think such reasons are supposed to convince me to believe as they do. Since the major monotheistic religions make it a point to stress evangelism and the necessity of infidels coming into the faith in order to obtain salvation (arguably the whole point of this "experiment of God" on our planet), then my questions are valid. It can't be enough for the Christian, Muslim, et al. to say, "Well, this makes sense to me," or, "This is what's real to me," since this would mean that God isn't consistent in his ability to make a creation that could all arrive at the same conclusions and understand truth.

So I ask you, why is it important to set about converting others to atheism?

I'm not out to convert anyone. I'm here for dialogue. From my own experience and those of many other atheists, the deconversion process is very personal, very difficult, and drawn out over months, years, or even decades. The only thing someone like myself could do is to cause a believer to think through their own beliefs and begin to doubt and question them.

Why is that any more or less important than a Moslim trying to convert you to Islam?

Because atheism isn't a belief in something. It's a lack of belief in something, and something we feel is dangerous and irresponsible to your overall well-being and the well-being of others around you. It would be like you debating whether or not the gun in your hand is the best gun on the market and perhaps comparing it with the guns of your neighbors. As the atheist in this analogy, I would be the one to suggest to you that you don't have to have a gun in your hand at all!

Using another example, it's about us agreeing on a framework for reality. It's not about me saying the sky is blue and you saying it's pink. It's about the religions themselves disagreeing on the color of the sky and the atheist stepping in and saying, "Let's determine what it is we mean by color and use that as a basis for determining the truth of things."

Or is it all about controversy? In your words, I see a great deal of "Americanisms" where it is vital to draw a solid line, or a make little perfect boxes where we all should fit.

I tend to see such divisiveness as a product of religion, not reason. Atheists as a whole do not make value judgments on human life based upon whether or not others agree with them with regards to a life philosophy. We have no dogma that says, "Kill unbelievers", nor do we follow a God that says He himself will one day kill believers. Indeed, the only reason atheism is controversial in the first place is because many religions' holy books say that we are evil people and worthy of death both now and in the hereafter!

What you are doing is making huge noises about quantifying disbelief in faith-based idiology where someone like me realizes that there are different realities for each of us.

Are you talking about a lens through which to see the world? Or do you actually believe that reality can be different for us, such that gravity goes up for you and down for me?

I have no problem with someone calling Nature God by the way, nor do I believe Jesus Christ is anymore the son of that God than I am. We both are. :)

I understand this position and am thankful it exists. I tend to consolidate such ideas under the "Deism" banner and am proud of the many great accomplishments of Deists throughout the world. Nevertheless, using terms like "God" that have very specific meanings for Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians when, instead, you mean something more generalized like "nature" tends to lend allow them to think that your God is the same as their God. They add your numbers to theirs in attempt to gain political and legal favor, and use your silence to advance religious causes that use their narrow-minded views.

I propose you start using a new term to stop creating confusion and to keep others from assuming that you believe in the silly things that Fundamentalists do.

[retributionnk]

Because atheism isn't a belief in something. It's a lack of belief in something, and something we feel is dangerous and irresponsible to your overall well-being and the well-being of others around you.

For clarification, par of this is statement portrays antitheist sentiment vice atheist sentiment. Atheists generally just lack belief, where antitheists find religions to be harmful to society.

[OkiMike]

For clarification, par of this is statement portrays antitheist sentiment vice atheist sentiment. Atheists generally just lack belief, where antitheists find religions to be harmful to society.

Yes, thank you. There is a difference between atheism and anti-theism as you say. Most sort of mix with each other, but thanks for clarifying.