Why do Marines have the worse image for violence amongst Okinawans?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Perhaps it is an unfair image the Marines have gained in Okinawa over the years -- i.e. that of having the worse image for violence to Okinawan civilians among all the branch services located here.

Of course the sheer number of violence to civilians committed by Marines from statistics would say that they are more simply because there are more Marine here than other service members. But, how about percentage wise, I wonder. Do Marines also lead in that category? If so, then I would say the image is then rightly deserved. Frankly, I suspect it is.

I would say that Marines in general (not 100%) have a certain swagger and air of hubris that comes off as more arrogant to civilians than other services, and this probably goes a long way towards making Marines have a bad image amongst Okinawans -- at least more so than the other services.

I think Okinawans can pick up on these characteristics that they, too, may see as a certain degree of arrogance. No one likes arrogant geusts in their own home when they have been invited.

Fair or not? Thoughts?

[hankypanky]

U hit it on the head. There are more Marines than anyother on island, so of incidents caused by servicemen, yes Marines are going to be in the forefront. Plus Okinawan's know that Marines are trained to fight. But they also know about elite forces such as the green berets.

Another ill thought upon them is that all in the air force fly and that they are more smarter than the rest/because of jets. Yes, air force was a more technical force than all others years ago, but the gap is changing. Technology in all forces now requiring a greater smarter serviceman.

But having the bulk on okinawa, marines are always going to get a bad rap. But did ya know, americans only cause less than 1% of all crimes on okinawa? But we get all the press. Communist Newspapers:thumbdown:

[Mad Hatter]

Marines like to take it to extereme in whatever they do... attacking a country, drill, speaking in public, or beating down a local

[TheNoNamedOne]

But having the bulk on okinawa, marines are always going to get a bad rap. But did ya know, americans only cause less than 1% of all crimes on okinawa? But we get all the press. Communist Newspapers:thumbdown:

Yeah, I know about this last part, Hank, and I really don't want the discussion to go off on that. If I recall, this has been brought up several times on different threads and the OP isn't really a comparison between Marine crimes and Okinawan civilian crimes.

But Hank, as a percentage, do you think Marines also have more crimes than any other services here on island? I suspect they do, and if so, then isn't the image a fair one? I think it would be.

[DougP]

I believe the numbers play a huge part of it. Just like in Korea where the Army is looked upon as being the bad apple of the US military.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I think soon someone will answer the question in how I asked it as to whether the image is a fair one and rightly deserved.

[DougP]

I think soon someone will answer the question in how I asked it as to whether the image is a fair one and rightly deserved.

Well that's a good question none the less. I wonder if you have an answer in mind already. I suppose its wrong to judge someone by what others have done regardless of what race, creed or service they belong to. On the other hand if you are in the service everyone is expected to behave the same. You know, that whole dress right dress attitude. It follows that whole idea of if one messes up then we all have messed up. Its hard to try and rewrite other persons' views on another particular group.

I honestly don't think Okinawans for the most part can tell if Americans are in the military or not, let alone what branch they might be in. I still have to explain to locals that I'm not in the service. Even with excess facial hair and a longer than regulation hair cut:D Many of them really don't know. The just assume that because I'm a white American male in Okinawa I must be in the military. On top of that the first thing they assume you are is a Marine. Why? because they make up the bulk of the force here. The second guess is always Airforce.:)

[hankypanky]

Yeah, I know about this last part, Hank, and I really don't want the discussion to go off on that. If I recall, this has been brought up several times on different threads and the OP isn't really a comparison between Marine crimes and Okinawan civilian crimes.

But Hank, as a percentage, do you think Marines also have more crimes than any other services here on island? I suspect they do, and if so, then isn't the image a fair one? I think it would be.

yeah, you right. Marines are taught to be aggessive and probable the most apt to fight when in town not fearing what will happen. But when you mix that aggression with booze look out:1:

[DocTurtle]

But Hank, as a percentage, do you think Marines also have more crimes than any other services here on island? I suspect they do, and if so, then isn't the image a fair one? I think it would be.

I wouldn't doubt that a majority are done my the marines, but I think most of that just comes down to numbers again, which is what you don't want this post to be about. You're almost doing lawyer talk though, the whole "I only want the answer, not the justification that would make the answer make sense."
Lawyer:I'm not asking if you just happend to be at park playing with your kid like you do every Tuesday. Where you at the roit that accoured in the park on Tuesday, yes or no.

Know what I mean? So...do they have a worse image for violence amongst Okinawan's? I think your best bet would go straight to the source if you want the real answer? See if the Okinawan's have a poll on it? But like someone already said, most Okinawan's seem to believe we are all Marines. My opinion, no, I don't think would have a worse image for violence. Regulars at a bar that always seem to get aggressive when drinking, yea, those get an image for violence.

Marines in general are not like that though, at least not the ones I know. Especially considering the community service that Marines do, the amount of time the spend touring the island. How often do you hear about a fight or any violence happen durning a tour? Not often. You only ever hear about 2 servicemen getting into a fight at a bar, but do you hear about the 3 other bars where the okinawan's got into a fight? My guess would be no. Sure, there are trouble makers here and there, but you have that no matter where you are, in the military or not.

Hmm...I've seem to gone a bit astray on the topic.

I would say that Marines in general (not 100%) have a certain swagger and air of hubris that comes off as more arrogant to civilians than other services, and this probably goes a long way towards making Marines have a bad image amongst Okinawans -- at least more so than the other services.
Absolutely they have a swagger. Anyone who said otherwise would obviously not know the Marines. They have that swagger branded into them from day one. They are traing to kill, be the best, and never back down. So could they be considered arrogant, definately. But I think that actually beingarrogant would be more of personality as a person, not so much that they are in the Marines. I think that would be the person despite the branch they are in. Some people are just naturally cocky and think if you don't take that in to consideration, Mr.Laywer then you are going to get whatever answer you are going for.

I'm not trying to bash you TP, so please don't take the above as that. I'm just stating that it's hard to ask a question like that without having outside information. Otherwise it turns into that little "Lawyerp" convo above.

[hankypanky]

Someone touched a nerve:D It's hard to let someone talk of their own unless they have been there. Just a question. It wasn't meant to disgrace Marines, just an observation by the local populace.

[Ammoyankee]

I think it's the lifestyle/stress that contributes to the violence. And the young Marines undoubtedly are held to a higher standard in their branch than the sister services. I am Air Force, our young airman have no restrictions upon arrival with the exception of the new Liberty Card program. They all get their own rooms, are all alowed to purchase/drive vehicles, do not have much of a civilian dress code and generally have an easier lifestyle. While I admittedly am not current on the USMC lifestyles and living conditions, I can speak from past tours how friends of mine were bunked together, had to earn Liberty, couldn't drive vehicles and generally had a more regimented/strict set of ethics to live by. Obviously this promotes more stress than some others have seen and when they do "cut loose", it tends to be wilder. Also, the more high profile crimes occurred by USMC personnel which makes them look worse than other services. I have the utmost respect for all the other services, something I learned as I matured.

[DocTurtle]

Someone touched a nerve:D It's hard to let someone talk of their own unless they have been there. Just a question. It wasn't meant to disgrace Marines, just an observation by the local populace.

Lol, yea. It is hard to let other talk about your own. I'm a corpsman, the marines are my children, lol. I know it wasn't ment to disgrace Marines...but I think that's the way my posted ended up...blah. Sorry about that.
So yea...I think they have the image for violence because they see all Americans as Marines :army: [/rant] lol

Also, the more high profile crimes occurred by USMC personnel which makes them look worse than other services. Hey if you're going to do something, go all out, lol. I have the utmost respect for all the other services, something I learned as I matured. I always joke how I think the Army is dirty and the Air Force is lazy, hell we all do. But I'm right there with you in the fact I have nothing but respect for the other services. Brothers in Arms. I got your back any day of the week bro!

[hankypanky]

Kool. Thanks Doc. We always appreciate you guys. Brothers in Arms. Big Heart!!:first:

[P_chan]

Air Force is lazy

Hey I'm not lazy, kadena just drains my motivation:D

[DocTurtle]

lol, they just don't provide you enough work to keep you off the forums :p

[P_chan]

My shop has me doing too much work. I try to take breaks every once in a while:D

Actually, I'm waiting on a phone call, and then the fun starts:(

[DocTurtle]

Lol, yea. I just recently got promoted so I'm not getting as much forum time as I would like at work, hehe.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Someone touched a nerve:D It's hard to let someone talk of their own unless they have been there. Just a question. It wasn't meant to disgrace Marines, just an observation by the local populace.

I think so too, Hank. But in all honesty, while I don't agree with some of the things he said, DocTurtle's post was excellent. Very well written -- kinda like a defense attorney.

Gonna reply to it.

But you are right, Hank. It is an observation of an observation by Okinawans on Marines comparatively to other services.

[Tony Stacks]

The only reason Marines get a bad rep is because there is more of them that's it. Obviously if there is more of a group than numbers will be higher. Now if Marines were the minority than another service would have a higher number of incidents.

look at all the good here done by the military, Marines hold that higher number too. Volunteering out in toen, teaching English to little kids, toys for tots and there is more.

Marines will always be marines we get drunk, we party, we work hard and play hard but Marines like always and always will make the world a better and sfer place and Okinawa is blessed to have them here.

I'm a civilian now but I will always have a special place in my heart for the Corps God bless them!

[TheNoNamedOne]

But I'm right there with you in the fact I have nothing but respect for the other services. Brothers in Arms.

Marines amongst themselves wiill speak very contemptuosly of those in the other services. One may try and dismiss that as harmless banter and espirit de corpes, but it really does at times take a tone of dispisement and mocking to the point of disrespect.

Sure, in public they may want to look more noble and espouse on how all the services are just "great ol' guys" all in all, and reciprocate with compliments to their brothers in arms, but in reality, they really do look down on the others in the other branches. And they know how to hold their tongue on it when speaking seriously of the matter when in mixed company.

[Tony Stacks]

Marines amongst themselves wiill speak very contemptuosly of those in the other services. One may try and dismiss that as harmless banter and espirit de corpes, but it really does at times take a tone of dispisement and mocking to the point of disrespect.

Sure, in public they may want to look more noble and espouse on how all the services are just "great ol' guys" all in all, and reciprocate with compliments to their brothers in arms, but in reality, they really do look down on the others in the other branches. And they know how to hold their tongue on it when speaking seriously of the matter when in mixed company.

Well lets see, Marines Boot Camp is worse than the others, longer than the others, they are leaders even as PFC's, they get old worn out handed down gear, they care about their uniforms and apperance, they do what there told no matter what so I think they have a right to a little bosting:first:

[Asshat]

And they know how to hold their tongue on it when speaking seriously of the matter when in mixed company.

That's because Marines know the only way to get in the Navy is to admit to being homosexual. If a Marine recruiter meets a young prospect and the dude doesn't appear to shower regularly, well, that's why the Army recruiter is there. I forgot that other service. Oh yeah, the USAF. That's for people who want to wear uniforms, but can't get into the military. :D

Last night, or rather, early this morning I was talking with the taxi driver who told me that Marines speak very badly with filthy language.

He said they kept saying son of a bitch, and the driver thought they wanted to go to a beach. He said the Marines were angry because he didn't understand, and he was angry because they didn't know which beach to go to.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Oh sssshhhheeeeeeet, dude. That is just freakin funny!

[Tony Stacks]

That's because Marines know the only way to get in the Navy is to admit to being homosexual. If a Marine recruiter meets a young prospect and the dude doesn't appear to shower regularly, well, that's why the Army recruiter is there. I forgot that other service. Oh yeah, the USAF. That's for people who want to wear uniforms, but can't get into the military. :D

Last night, or rather, early this morning I was talking with the taxi driver who told me that Marines speak very badly with filthy language.

He said they kept saying son of a bitch, and the driver thought they wanted to go to a beach. He said the Marines were angry because he didn't understand, and he was angry because they didn't know which beach to go to.


That pisses me off. Thos Marines are that 10% Marines do have filthy mouths and I still do but there is a time and a place and they should have not been acting that way in front of the taxi driver.

Don't let the actions of an ignorant few make you think they are all like that.

[DocTurtle]

Marines amongst themselves wiill speak very contemptuosly of those in the other services. One may try and dismiss that as harmless banter and espirit de corpes, but it really does at times take a tone of dispisement and mocking to the point of disrespect.

Sure, in public they may want to look more noble and espouse on how all the services are just "great ol' guys" all in all, and reciprocate with compliments to their brothers in arms, but in reality, they really do look down on the others in the other branches. And they know how to hold their tongue on it when speaking seriously of the matter when in mixed company.
And I couldn't agree with you more. Most people that do that though, as Hank stated, are the immature ones that dont realize that we are a team.

If asked what team is the best, your team is always number one :first: no matter what! If asked who the best player is, your player is the best in the league, no competition. That's pride in self, job, espirit de corpes, or whatever else you want to call it.

When it comes to the military services, if you don't understand that no job can be completed without the help of the others, you are sadly mistaken. (That is except for the Navy Marine team which can accomplish any and everything, lol j/k.)

If an Army guy and a Navy guy were arguing, I would right of the bat support the Navy guy even before I knew what was going on. That's just backing up your team. But you have to also get the full story, and if your guy is wrong, you need to let him know.

Now if an Air Force guy was in a fight with some civy or something, I would support the AF guy all the way, again unless I find out that he was in the wrong.

Ugh...I think I might have gotten of topic again....[/rant]

You are right, there is some disrespect given from branch to branch. What's suppose to be a friendly rivalry does get pushed to far some times. Just like sports fans (soccer fans come to mind atm due to all the drama going on in Italy).

[Asshat]

That pisses me off. Don't let the actions of an ignorant few make you think they are all like that.


Tony- 22 years in the suck. Don't worry. I already know how we talk.

[Tony Stacks]

Tony- 22 years in the suck. Don't worry. I already know how we talk.

Than you def know how it is. I just hate when people esspecially locals talk negative about Marines when they bust their asses and do a lot of good here.

In the staes when I see people talk shit abou Marines I wanna punch em.

Wow 22 years your a motivator! It takes a damn strong person to do the whole 20 I know I had a hard time with 4 :dead:

[DocTurtle]

That's because Marines know the only way to get in the Navy is to admit to being homosexual.
Can't believe you went there. Now I have to say it...
Navy people have been known to remind the Marines that they are only a department of the Navy. Most Marines response to this would be, "Yea, the men's department." After a few chuckles I have only one question to this. "If the Marines are the men's department, why do you get issued blouses?"
:D:D:D:D

22 eh? Good on ya bro! I'm only 5 deep now, but I think that 15 more might be the course.
15 more years of babysitting Marines :D God I love my job!

[Asshat]

15 more years of babysitting Marines :D God I love my job!

Ah, I can't say anything bad about the doc! You guys are the stuff!

SF

[P_chan]

Good point TP. I've seen this from experience. My little bitch ass brother-in-law is in the marines and is always talking down about the air force in front of me. Yet I know that not all marines are like that. I have another brother-in-law in the marines who is very respectful to ANYONE in ANY branch of the service, which is the way it should be

they get old worn out handed down gear

That's not true. We all get crap for gear and equipment.

Oh yeah, the USAF. That's for people who want to wear uniforms, but can't get into the military. :D

That was sooo funny I forgot to laugh:D You know they're supposed to extend AF boot camp and make us sleep with rifles? But I'm pretty sure they rumors been going around for quite a while now:D

[TheNoNamedOne]

You're almost doing lawyer talk though, the whole "I only want the answer, not the justification that would make the answer make sense."
Lawyer:I'm not asking if you just happend to be at park playing with your kid like you do every Tuesday. Were you at the roit that accoured in the park on Tuesday, yes or no.

I think most lawyers know that such a question would be objected to by opposing attorney, DocP, and would be sustained and hence not word it that way. And btw, it is the part of opposing council in their turn to give their cliant any and all chance to speak to the justification to any answer the defendant gave to the other lawyer.

Regulars at a bar that always seem to get aggressive when drinking, yea, those get an image for violence.

Marines in general are not like that though, at least not the ones I know. Especially considering the community service that Marines do, the amount of time they spend touring the island.

Well, it isn't all about reality. It is about image, and no matter how undeserved that image is, even if the statistics back that up, policy based on the local atmosphere can be affected in a real way. And besides, we all know the old "one rotten apple" idiom.

Regardless, though, if the statistics in percentage shows that marines more than others here are running into trouble with the authorities than other branches, then the image built on a sense of intuition is justified and accurate.

How often do you hear about a fight or any violence happen durning a tour? Not often.

Well of course, the majority of Marines are going to be on good behaviour in an organized event under they watchful eyes of NCO's they know are present. Unorganized out in town with courage juice in them thinking they are not being watched by NCOs or officers on the other hand -- well then you are talking about a different animal all together.

You only ever hear about 2 servicemen getting into a fight at a bar, but do you hear about the 3 other bars where the okinawan's got into a fight? My guess would be no.

Why should it matter that we hear about the other 3 where Okinawans got into fights? You mean to downplay the servicemen's fight? Put it into perspective so that the Okinawan fight gets more bad news?

Listen, you go to your acquaintance's house as a geust and get into a squable with his wife, do you think she is wrong for talking about that to her neighbor instead of the 3 squables she had with her own family members the same day? The point is that a host occupies a higher position deserving of respect for how you act within their home, and, therefore, if you disrespect them, that criticism is going to be rightfully higher of you to others in that neighborhood or amongst that family. Brothers and sisters forgive one another of the many fights they have between them and do not air so much dirty laundry in comparison to a lesser forgiving attitude to others not of the family regarding fights, and they are far more likely to publicize those fights for others to see.

[hankypanky]

I used to talk trash about the other services when i was young, but after working with them and seeing what trash they go through, I had respect for them in my own way. The only reason i punched out at 20 is because it got to political correct for this hard charger. I've mellowed with age ( little bit ) but the language thing does bother me alittle. I get marines at the bar with my wife and daughter there and every other word out of a few is ****. Lately i ask them if they kiss their mother with that mouth? Then i remind them that this is my wife.

Sometimes i think if it was an american woman they might have more manners. One thing my wife to told me is that Okinawans' no what the word **** means.

or it my mean they are in a bar and a bar is where they let their hair down:(

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Of course the sheer number of violence to civilians committed by Marines from statistics would say that they are more simply because there are more Marine here than other service members. But, how about percentage wise, I wonder. Do Marines also lead in that category? If so, then I would say the image is then rightly deserved. Frankly, I suspect it is.

Fair or not? Thoughts?
This article would suggest this idea is incorrect.

The 160 crimes per year U.S. servicemen commit are lost in a sea of Japanese criminality, among the 23,800 crimes committed every year by the Japanese.
But there is another factor that skews the statistics even more in the favor of U.S. servicemen. During the last 30 years, over 2 million U.S. servicemen have passed through Okinawa, perhaps as many as 4 million, but for the sake of argument, let's use the lower figure.
The average stay of U.S. servicemen stationed in Japan is said to be about 18 months. Thirty thousand U.S. servicemen are currently stationed in Okinawa. During the Vietnam War and the Gulf Conflict, those numbers swelled as servicemen would be rotated through for a short time and then be reassigned. At times, there have been considerable flows of servicemen (and women) to and from Okinawa from other service stations in the Far East, Hawaii, Guam and the West Coast of the United States. So 2 million is not extreme for the number of troops that have passed through Okinawa in the last 30 years.
In other words, in 30 years, 2 million U.S. servicemen have committed 5,000 "serious crimes," as against 650,000 Japanese males committing 23,800 serious crimes in just one year, during 2001.
http://www.eyesonjapan.com/jp22.htm

[TheNoNamedOne]

That is all interesting data, Eel, but it doesn't address the percentage in terms of crimes committed by the different branches of services and compare them.

That is more or less what I am interested in. I am wondering if the image of Marines committing more crimes on a percentage basis is indeed wrong.

If 5 Marines commit crimes per 100 Marines BUT 6 Air Force personel commit crimes per 100 Air Force personel, then the image as Marines being more bad as individuals is wrong, or a misguided image merely because of the larger number of Marines here. If those numbers are reversed, though, then the image because of the large number of Marines shows that the judgement on Marine character by Okinawans is intuitively right and also supported by the statistical percent.

[DougP]

That is all interesting data, Eel, but it doesn't address the percentage in terms of crimes committed by the different branches of services and compare them.

That is more or less what I am interested in. I am wondering if the image of Marines committing more crimes on a percentage basis is indeed wrong.

If 5 Marines commit crimes per 100 Marines BUT 6 Air Force personel commit crimes per 100 Air Force personel, then the image as Marines being more bad as individuals is wrong, or a misguided image merely because of the larger number of Marines here. If those numbers are reversed, though, then the image because of the large number of Marines shows that the judgement on Marine character by Okinawans is intuitively right and also supported by the statistical percent.

If you were going to go about it like that you would have to collect the data for an obviously long period of time. Incidences per branch compared to the overall size of the branch at the time or period of time. Take into the account the fluctuation of forces through out certain periods of time/conflicts etc. Also take into account how long the Marines have been a dominant force compared to the other branches here. Wasn't always like that. Damn, good luck with that TP.:D

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, I sure do not have the statistics at my fingertips, that is for certain. I wouldn't be surprised if they exist somewhere, though.

Also, you wouldn't have to measure every moment with the varying fluctuations of military numbers. Perhaps an every 5 year or decade shapshot would be fine -- particularly from the point where Marines had become the clearly dominant branch here.

But, I do wonder when it began that the Marines came to have a worse image to the Okinawans than the other branches. Was that image sealed during the 50's, 60's, or 70's? It was certainly here already in the 80's. I wonder. ???

[DougP]

Good question. I'm sure there might be a few members here that could give you
some further insight into that. At least from their perspective. There are a couple of members who were here in the 80's 70's and before. Quite a few who were here from the 90's to present.

[Asshat]

That was sooo funny I forgot to laugh:D You know they're supposed to extend AF boot camp and make us sleep with rifles? But I'm pretty sure they rumors been going around for quite a while now:D

P_chan, you guys have to go boot camp? :D

[P_chan]

I didn't consider it boot camp, I called it summer camp:D

[Crazysix]

I didn't consider it boot camp, I called it summer camp:D
LOL thats is exactly what we were told about you people:D:D:w00t:

Marines are arrogant,self center Harbingers of death, we are the 5th horseman of the Apocalypse, yet we have a soft spot for those in need, we help the wounded, we will take time to play with kids or pet a dog. We are Amphibious death from the sea, steely eyed killers, and on the 7th day while God rested we did over run his perimeter. We are the sons and daughters of America. Bred in Hell, born in Battle, tested by many, but never once failed to achieve our objective at any cost. I am a member of this fraternity of brothers for life and even after death will proudly stand my post at heavens gate.

On Okinawa, they have seen our best and our worst, we are the largest number here and will continue to make violent crimes headlines, simply due the fact people fear what they dont understand and those who post opinions from the outside well, your opinion just doesnt matter, We Police our Own.

Oh yeah, love you guys(Airforce/Army) and much love to our sisters(Navy):thumbup:

[Crazysix]

TP you ask alot of questions about The Corp, join up and find out first hand, nothing like it in whole wide world

[okisteve]

Marines are arrogant,self center Harbingers of death, we are the 5th horseman of the Apocalypse, yet we have a soft spot for those in need, we help the wounded, we will take time to play with kids or pet a dog. We are Amphibious death from the sea, steely eyed killers,

Mmmm, sounds good.

Don't worry about keeping TP informed about mil life by the way.

Great thread, TP.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP you ask alot of questions about The Corp, join up and find out first hand, nothing like it in whole wide world

Boot laces left over right, Crazy?

[Muku]

Monsta dont know if you realize this or not.....this thread had been dead for over 6 months.

[OtisPMerriweather]

Ain't trying to start no shit here, cause I really don't care. I'm too old and got over that interservice bullsh!t. But, you said you picked up SSgt at 4 years- THAT is why in the Army E6 is not a senior NCO rank and in the Marines it is. It used to take about 8-10 years to pick up E6 in the Marines. These days, with the war, it's closer to 6-8.

[CursedGTR]

I think soon someone will answer the question in how I asked it as to whether the image is a fair one and rightly deserved.

Here is your answer plain and simple.

No -

Because Marines for the most part have been known to do more good than bad. No one addresses the fact that we have 30-40 different volunteer things for locals going each month. Which provides more items, money and manpower than the locals do for local causes. You do not see many people from other services cleaning up and sponsoring beaches, I see at least 10 Marines on a daily basis that have volunteered at schools, orphanages and other places to help out just because they like it here and want too.

No one addresses the countless humanitarian operations conducted by us "trained killers" in this theater to include things that were not publicized to help japan.

we have our bad apples like anyone else and they are usually dealt with accordingly, but how do you deal with a problem that does not exist until it exposes itself?? You don't.

Sheer numbers unfairly portrays Marines in a bad light and that is something we have to deal with, but a reputation for being trouble makers is certainly unearned and only fueled because we are the majority of military members on Okinawa.

[xxzjxx]

But they also know about elite forces such as the green berets.

LOL no they don't, they dont care about military like Americans do.

Most of the people in my wife's family still think that Army and Marines are the same thing, they think its all "Guntai".

You gotta understand, Japanese people are not as patriotic as Americans are, Americans love their Marines more than any other branch because we are the toughest to join and we have the thickest skin. We look good in our uniform and we are badasses on TV.

The army? No... the image i get in my head about can only be described in a sound: "Dup-dee doo... Da .. Dup-dee doo." "HAY SARGE!!!" (redneck voice)

[xxzjxx]

Once i was watching the OTV news and they displayed a picture of an airforce guy, it was CLEARLY airforce, and the subittle still said "KAIHETAI"... confusing? Hell yea... There was an incident in Sasebo about 3 years ago where a sailor raped a girl in fukuoka, and the news still said "Kaihetai".. my mother in law called me up and was like, I heard Marine raped again, is it true? Why is Marined always put on the news like they are so bad?

Later in the newspaper that sasebo puts out, it had an article about the sailor and his punishment. LOL.

[xxzjxx]

i disagree.. americans do not love on branch more than another... marines tend to think others emulate them when they in reality do not...

all services have an integral part to play in our nations defense.. one cannot accomplish the mission with another....

You must be army. or airforce.. thats they only reason you say such a thing.

Its clear to me as it is to most Americans that the US Marine Corps is the most beloved branch.

If you tell some random US Citizen that you are army, most of the time they will just be like... "Thats uhhh.. great"

If you tell them you are a Marine, they will be more like "Wow, what do you do in the Marines? Have you been to Iraq? How was bootcamp, I heard it is really hard."

Point made by me... K THNX

[P_chan]

Later in the newspaper that sasebo puts out, it had an article about the sailor and his punishment. LOL.

Yeah but I thought the marines are part of the navy :D

Seems like someone loves themself and thinks their branch is superior to all others:rolleyes:

[TheLastDon]

Woo Hoo, another "Which branch is better" haven't had one of this in awhile. Go for it! Let's see who wins.:rolleyes:

[P_chan]

Woo Hoo, another "Which branch is better" haven't had one of this in awhile. Go for it! Let's see who wins.:rolleyes:

It's like fighting over who has the biggest e-penis.

[fdjkvc]

Kill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CursedGTR]

Marines = THE SUCK ( I am one so can the moto Bullshit in your reply )
Air Force = The Suck Some More due to being younger bastard sister of other services
The Navy = The Marines Daddy who taught it how to suck in the first place
The Army = The originators of Suck

[socalheart]

I don't know much about statistics and numbers. I do know from personal experience that my friends and I have never had an enlisted female from the Navy, Army or Air Force try to beat us up because their friend was pushing and elbowing one of our friends on the dance floor in a club. I also know that I've never had an enlisted Navy, Air Force or Army guy get violent with me when I didn't sgree with him, do what he wanted to do or was generally contrary.

I have always felt that an enlisted Marine, male or female, becomes a Marine for one of two reasons, family legacy or to prove something. When I've asked my Marine friends of random ages about it, they usually agree.

[TheNoNamedOne]

...and to be honest most of america prbably knows 2 things about the marines..

1. the dress uniform is the sharpest hands down.. i will give you that...

2. FULL METAL JACKET

They should know that they cry and seem to piss in their pants (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91870&postcount=1), too.

What, no bayonet charge!?

But, to the OP topic, I still think Marines have the worse rep here in Okinawa amongst the civilians. I am not sure that could ever be changed no matter how much volunteer work they do. Maybe they need to just learn to not stand out so much. No more tats and learn to walk out of step.

[CursedGTR]

They should know that they cry and seem to piss in their pants (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91870&postcount=1), too.

What, no bayonet charge!?

But, to the OP topic, I still think Marines have the worse rep here in Okinawa amongst the civilians. I am not sure that could ever be changed no matter how much volunteer work they do. Maybe they need to just learn to not stand out so much. No more tats and learn to walk out of step.

I think you are alittle to full of yourself.

No More tats?? uh hello, Okinawans run most of those tat shops and I have seen quite a few Japanese in there as well. I do not have tats but you are talking some lameness there.

walk out of step?? Are you serious??? Look at your feet next time you walk the same pace as someone close to your own height. You might just be in step and not even know it.

Too bad if Marines havea bad rep amongst the locals, as a whole, I have never had a problem out in town and most Okinawans I meet are surprised to find out that I am a Marine, if you ask me Okinawans follow the news blindly and still to this day a large majority have had little or no contact with Marines so this is a moot argument.

[hankypanky]

I think you are alittle to full of yourself.

No More tats?? uh hello, Okinawans run most of those tat shops and I have seen quite a few Japanese in there as well. I do not have tats but you are talking some lameness there.

walk out of step?? Are you serious??? Look at your feet next time you walk the same pace as someone close to your own height. You might just be in step and not even know it.

Too bad if Marines havea bad rep amongst the locals, as a whole, I have never had a problem out in town and most Okinawans I meet are surprised to find out that I am a Marine, if you ask me Okinawans follow the news blindly and still to this day a large majority have had little or no contact with Marines so this is a moot argument.

Need a haircut do ya:D

[Crazysix]

Go Coast Guard

[Crazysix]

bump de la bump

[CursedGTR]

They should know that they cry and seem to piss in their pants (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showpost.php?p=91870&postcount=1), too.

What, no bayonet charge!?

But, to the OP topic, I still think Marines have the worse rep here in Okinawa amongst the civilians. I am not sure that could ever be changed no matter how much volunteer work they do. Maybe they need to just learn to not stand out so much. No more tats and learn to walk out of step.

How do you Bayonet charge Mortars there genius??? Tell me that one?? Ever been to war and had mortars dropped on you?? If not STFU.. You are definitely annoying as all hell and trust me that little argument we had a while back is nothing dude. I am definitely your foe.

Ban me if you wish, I really don't care, people like you make me ill, talk a bunch of shit but we know where shit comes from right??

[TheNoNamedOne]

If not STFU..
Ban me if you wish, I really don't care, ...

Tone it down a little with this kind of language. And if you want to be banned, you know the route to go. -- TP

Do not reply to this post.

[Rick James Jr.]

As far as percetage I don't know.
Now I will say of course the numbers are higher because there are more Marines here.

[CursedGTR]

Tone it down a little with this kind of language. And if you want to be banned, you know the route to go. -- TP

Do not reply to this post.

Thanks for making all of my points about you valid

[Rick James Jr.]

I will throw this out there and NO I am NOT condoning the actions of those who have committed serious crimes off base but as far as the typical bar fight and what not wtf do you think is goona happen with members of an organization that was created in a bar for Christ's sake.

[CursedGTR]

I will throw this out there and NO I am NOT condoning the actions of those who have committed serious crimes off base but as far as the typical bar fight and what not wtf do you think is goona happen with members of an organization that was created in a bar for Christ's sake.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[TheNoNamedOne]

Thanks for making all of my points about you valid

What don't you understand about "Do not reply to this post", and the rule that discussing moderation within the thread is not to be done? Also, if a moderator asks you do something, do it. This asks is akin to telling you to do something. I told you to not reply to that post in this. If you want to, then create a thread in the Forum Feedback area or PM me about it. The same with this post. Do not reply to it here. -- TP

[xxzjxx]

Marines = THE SUCK ( I am one so can the moto Bullshit in your reply )
Air Force = The Suck Some More due to being younger bastard sister of other services
The Navy = The Marines Daddy who taught it how to suck in the first place
The Army = The originators of Suck

ROFL CursedGTR is a LCpl who cant get promoted, so he is bitter.. what now!? WOO HOO

[xxzjxx]

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Funny/fat-soldier.jpg

BE! ALL THAT YOU CAN BE!!!!

[CursedGTR]

ROFL CursedGTR is a LCpl who cant get promoted, so he is bitter.. what now!? WOO HOO

CursedGTR is a Gunny and is sick of the moto Bullshit portrayed by false people on a day to day basis just so they can suck a cock to get ahead.


Bounce on out and get past your four years first

[xXNothingnessXx]

well... lets just go ahead and call a spade a spade.. you are wrong about pretty much everything in this post... lol

i am a civilian.. prior service army.. i did 6 yrs and decided to become a civilian...

as far as the iraq thing.. i am sure that most of the country is aware that the majority of the missoin in iraq falls on us army soldiers.. army has the longest deployments, most personnel on ground, most accomplishments, and most fatalities....

and to be honest most of america prbably knows 2 things about the marines..

1. the dress uniform is the sharpest hands down.. i will give you that...

2. FULL METAL JACKET


The Army has the most land to cover in Iraq, true. But most of that land has seen limited combat. The Marine Corps has the Anbar province, which has become a model of counter ininsurgency operations. They are "winning the hearts and minds" more than ever there.

Longer deployments mean less training. By the time their year is up they are tired, complacent, and don't give a crap about what they are doing. I have been there twice 04 and 06. during that time things changed drastically. Last time i was out there what we trained for 7 months prior was completely different then what our relieving unit trained for. The Marine Corps has the right idea for deployments. 4-5 months of traing before deployment, 7 months on deployment, and off for 7 months for adaptive training. Don't be fooled our higher headquarters (Regt and up) are there for 14 months. The Battalions who do the fighting are only there for 7.

Fatalities are nothing to brag about but maybe it stems from what I said up top about being less trained further on in the deployment in a rapidly changing war. Or maybe Marines are just better shots:D

Army (active)deaths 2382 couldn't find solid number on how many soldiers deployed there.

USMC (active)Deaths 857 of 25000 usaually deployed (3.4%)

Accomplishments???....the Navy has 2 MOH winners with far less personnel in Iraq seems like they are doing a pretty good job out there.

And I don't think you are giving the American people enough credit when it comes to the Marine Corps.

Sorry to get off topic but Iraq is a team effort...

[DoctorP]

TP,

WTF is up with the scare tactics?

I think you are being ridiculous. Who in the hell are you to just talk shoit to just anyone fighting for our country, regardless if they are fighting an endless and needless war? Until you get mortared, and get an idea of what it feels like to not know if you will be alive in the next two minutes of your life, you have NOOOOOO room at all to talk shit to anyone or about anyone who has done it.

I know YOU would piss your pants, you would probably take a dump in them too. Just about anyone would. So get off your fvcking high horse and start respecting other people on this forum, whether they belong to it or not, and stop acting like an anonymous poser idiot when you haven't done the shite,

Samy


Please do not discuss thread moderation within the thread in question. Feel free to start a new thread in the feedback area.

[Muku]

You know what is saddest here......you all are arguing about the same thing, death.

Death of American's, doesnt matter what uniform they wear, or don't wear, blood is the same color red.

Interservice rivaly is one thing, making comparisons about percentages of deaths between them dishonors all of them in my opinion, because they ALL died no matter the service branch doing a job that they shouldn't have been sent to do in the first place.

Can you put that part if the discussion aside for a moment and think about that.:army:

[badkitty]

LMAO! This thread hasn't died yet?!!??!?!

[DoctorP]

Posts discussing moderation were moved here (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6331)

[DougP]

LMAO! This thread hasn't died yet?!!??!?!

Even when it does something else similar to it will pop up in its place:thumbup1:

Viva la never ending bitch fest:D **** it, do they have WiFi at the Reef? Somebody bring a laptop next time so we can really have fun on here!:thumbup:

[P_chan]

yeah but if you brought a laptop to a bar, I'd call you a dork:D

[DougP]

yeah but if you brought a laptop to a bar, I'd call you a dork:D

Man that would hurt coming from you, Mr Otaku:D

[Muku]

yeah but if you brought a laptop to a bar, I'd call you a dork:D


Dork......:-|

[xXNothingnessXx]

you are right that iraq is a team effort..

if you are having trouble figuring out a how many us army soldiers are in iraq just round it out to about 100,00 for arguments sake since you seem to know USMC numbers and seem to eb ignorant of the army numbers...

yes the anbar province is bad... but have you heard of balad, ramadi, i was there when we initially went into bagdad.. dont attempt to tell me that the marines are the only ones who see combat.. if you believe that you are delusional..

and since you obviously have no idea about army deployments i will educate you....

most units are on a 12-15 month on 9-12 months off cycle as far as deploying...

when you return from a deployment afet recovery you generally have a 1 month grace period for block leave.. once that is over you are training up for the next rotation... you may get 2 weeks blockleave for the holidays depending on the time of year... the training up continues throughout the 9-12 month period with one more opportunity to take leave before you deploy.. so in a year time frame you can expect 9-10 months of solid training up for the next deployment..


as far as your higher hq's being their for 14 months.. woopdefuccdoo...
everyone army wide is there for 12-15 months.. not just some in the rear staffers who are not in the direct line of fire..

i am not stupid and i am well aware of how the marine corp side of the house works as far as deployments.. i am well aware of the role and mission of the usmc in iraq....

before you spout off about the army side of the house which you obviously know nothing about do a little research other than post a few numbers here and there..

and to your little observation on the fatalities in iraq issue....

the army has in excess of 100000 soldiers in iraq.. you stated that the usmc has around 25000...

taking your numbers..

if we assume the army has 100,00 soldiers on ground and you said there have been 2382 us army fatalities..

there have been 857 usmc fatalities in based on 25000 marines...

if you look at the numbers if you multiply your numbers by 4 to equal the army troop strength you come up with 3428 usmc fatalities for 100000 marines..

or you can divide the armies numbers by 4 wich gives you roughly 595 deaths per 2500 soldiers...

given the simple math of the numbers you have provided how the fvcc can you claim some tactical superiority?? how can you claim the marines are better shots when you are dying at a higher ration than us soldiers...

point is we are all sacrificing over there..

and you seem to be one of the problems that many people have with marines... you think you are so much better than everyone else you opened your mouth without knowing what you are talking about.. and you have just further tarnished the image of the usmc.. you should be ashamed of yourself... i hold the usmc in high regard.. but no higher than any other branch.. how dare you question another branchs contributions to an effort when you dont even know what your own branch iss doing..

semper fi --- army strong - aim high

Everything you said in this post contradicted what you said in the post I quoted you in.

Dude I wasn't claiming tactical superiority in any way and at no point did I say the Army doesn't see combat. I said the majority of the fighting has taken place in Al Anbar and Bagdad. I know where Ramadi is, in Anbar the capital as a matter of fact, and Balad is north of bagdad.

I told you that I couldn't find out how many soldiers where there and neither could you..you assumed there are 100,000.

As far as the better shots statement it was a joke....hence the smiley face.

I never once called you stupid or even implied it.

I think I have a pretty good idea of that The Marine Corps is doing in Iraq. My experience has come from 2 deployments. What I experienced the first time was completely different from the last time. That is why I said the deployment cycle the Marine Corps is an advantage because they can adapt to the changes of the war and get a rest rather than staying there for over a year.

I never once said the Marine Corps is the end all be all of the armed forces. I have respect for all branches just as you. But you made some bold statements about the Army in Iraq. I was informing you that there are others out there. Hell I even said the Navy was doing outstanding work out there. You are taking this way too personally. I wasn't attacking you I just quoted you.

[P_chan]

I'm only an otaku in japan. Back in the states I'm nowhere near otaku!

[xXNothingnessXx]

You know what is saddest here......you all are arguing about the same thing, death.

Death of American's, doesnt matter what uniform they wear, or don't wear, blood is the same color red.

Interservice rivaly is one thing, making comparisons about percentages of deaths between them dishonors all of them in my opinion, because they ALL died no matter the service branch doing a job that they shouldn't have been sent to do in the first place.

Can you put that part if the discussion aside for a moment and think about that.:army:

That is why I said it's nothing to brag about. I was just posting the numbers of deaths for Army and Marines. I don't care who has the highest because it doesn't matter. I agree with you that it dishonors them making comparisions thats why i didn't, just provided numbers. What my post was about what that the Army isn't the only ones sacrificing like the first post by big was interpreted by me.

[DougP]

I'm only an otaku in japan. Back in the states I'm nowhere near otaku!

eh well I'm pretty much a dork in any country I guess:D

[xXNothingnessXx]

i dont think i ever implied that the army is the only branch sacrificing...


That was how I read it...if it's not the case...my bad

[TheLastDon]

Even when it does something else similar to it will pop up in its place:thumbup1:

Viva la never ending bitch fest:D **** it, do they have WiFi at the Reef? Somebody bring a laptop next time so we can really have fun on here!:thumbup:

Well you can all call me the biggest dork because Hard Reef doesn't have WIFI.

I checked with my IPOD touch the last time I was there. :o

[xxzjxx]

Dont forget that the Marine Corps is Expeditionary and not made to police like the Army.

You know what we do is go in with the battering ram, kill everybody and then the Army comes in and builds chow halls... thats what its all about.

The NAVY sends a few guys called SEALS in to do some dirty work.

Yea and the SEALS are part of the Navy, but every Sailor isn a SEAL.

If you ever talk to a SEAL and say "So your part of the NAVY right?" I'm sure he would tell you "Yea but were not like all those other NAVY folks".

So if your navy and you claim them, just keep in mind that they are not claiming you!!!!

[TheNoNamedOne]

You know what we do is go in with the battering ram, kill everybody...

Whoa! Way to discriminate, eh? I guess your words here go some way toward answering the OP question: indiscriminate killing. Everbody.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/16/unarmed_kill_wideweb__430x332.jpg
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200411/17/61/b0052361_19312866.jpg
'This One's Faking He's Dead'
'He's Dead Now'
Fallujah: Video shows US soldier killing wounded insurgent in cold blood (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1116-02.htm)

[CursedGTR]

Whoa! Way to discriminate, eh? I guess your words here go some way toward answering the OP question: indiscriminate killing. Everbody.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/16/unarmed_kill_wideweb__430x332.jpg
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200411/17/61/b0052361_19312866.jpg
'This One's Faking He's Dead'
'He's Dead Now'
Fallujah: Video shows US soldier killing wounded insurgent in cold blood (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1116-02.htm)

Whoa! Way to discriminate, eh? I guess your words here go some way toward answering the OP question: indiscriminate killing. Everbody.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/11/16/unarmed_kill_wideweb__430x332.jpg
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200411/17/61/b0052361_19312866.jpg
'This One's Faking He's Dead'
'He's Dead Now'
Fallujah: Video shows US soldier killing wounded insurgent in cold blood (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1116-02.htm)

Those videos were most likely taken during Al Fajr where insurgentsplayed dead and then used Hand Grenades to kill themselves and the American that was closest to them. But then again, this happens everywhere all the time, youjust don't hear about that on CNN.

Now TP, it is time for your rules of engagement class.

When an area or groupof persons is declared hostile you have the inherent right to kill them on sight instead of wait for them to **** your world up before you do anything.

First battle of Fallujah - All Military aged males (15-50) outside after 1900 declared hostile, regardless of disposition. The battlefield was properly prepared to relay this information to the local populace over a long period of time prior to the assault on the city. Once the assault went down, most innocent people with no where else to go that did not leave the city during the time that we allocated; stayed in their homes and were not shot or even harassed in any way shape or form, however, there are those that can and will push the envelope a bit in order to rope an American into making a questionable shoot and that is where pictures like this come from sometimes, other times they are one way media exploitations in order to influence ratings.

Now - ANY serviceman has the inherent right to defend his or herself based on whether or not he/she feels threatened by the person before him/her, therefore; who are we to question whether or not that person feared for his life?

With that being said let me ask a few questions here.

1. Is there a pistol between those two bodies (you cannot see whether or not there is one present but there could be)
2. Is there a hand grenade anywhere near them (small enough to conceal or have fallen into an unobservable spot) alot of insurgents used hand grenades to kill servicemen by playing dead and waiting for them to get close enough to guarantee a kill.
3. Did any one of them lunge at the shooter in anyway and attempt to take his weapon before he fended them off and shot them?
4. Are there any small remotes or other devices around the bodies that would determine whether or not they were attempting to detonate a remote device that could have taken American lives in the vicinity or else where (this includes cellular phones and Long range Cordless Phones)?

All though not completely conclusive All of those things are Hostile Acts and hostile intent which will get you killed. It is the checklist that runs through my head in a split second before I decide whether or not to take someones life on the battlefield and sometimes you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

In my opinion none of us have the right to question this kind of action from the safety of our own homes. There is no room for arm chair quarterbacks in war and yet so many have appeared in the past 5 years that I begin to question America's true desire to win and eventually end this war. There are critics and good idea fairies everywhere until you become the one that has to deal with killing. It doesn't feel good and we would rather not do so, but we do it and deal with the reprecussions of our actions later.

If the "motivator" talk makes you think that Marines are all brain washed into thinking they are stone cold killers you are wrong.

In terms that are more politically correct and a bit understandable for you, The Marine Corps lacks the logistical support to gain and maintain a foothold on the battlefield for a prolonged period of time. Therefore, it is necessary for follow on heavier forces to come in and support them or relieve them in order to maintain the battle. Although Marines have had prolonged presence on the battlefield since the beginning of the Corps, we have done so at the expense of our equipment and personnel and not without the support of the other services int he U.S. military, due to the fact that The Marine corps is not a large force but rather small and quick and you can only run so fast for so long before you run out of air. This right here is the reason The Commandant wants us out of Iraq and in Afghanistan exclusively.

All of these are questions that are raised during the course of an investigation, passing judegemnt to soon makes us as the guy on the ground second guess ourselves and that can lead to us coming home in a flag draped box.

In this case specifically, were those Marines notified that they were dealing with detainees or dealing with a potential reoccupation?? I believe the article said reoccupation which makes you switch gears to a totally different mindset, no longer are you securing something cleared. You are clearing something hostile in order to secure.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Those videos were most likely taken during Al Fajr where ...

Ah...ya didn't read the link did ya, Cursed? They were taken in Fallujah. And the Marine who did the shooting is facing a war crime trial for that killing this July.

Now TP, it is time for your rules of engagement class.

...

All though not completely conclusive ...

Of course you have left out a very important point; that once a combatant is no longer resisting and not a threat, which is what the video caught on film seems to show, or at least enough to convince the military command and military prosecutor so; that a crime had been committed and worthy of investigation (which there was) which lead to charges, and now a trial.

In my opinion none of us have the right to question this kind of action from the safety of our own homes. There is no room for arm chair quarterbacks in war and yet so many have appeared in the past 5 years that I begin to question America's true desire to win and eventually end this war. There are critics and good idea fairies everywhere until you become the one that has to deal with killing. It doesn't feel good and we would rather not do so, but we do it and deal with the reprecussions of our actions later.

Arm chair quarterbacks!? Pfft. Deal with it. They've been around for a long time and rightfully so, because a blank check written to armies is a result of disaster. Sorry you can't handle the criticisms of the civilian world which you are beholden to. It must really hurt one to have to be under our scrutiny, huh? Cry me a river, please.

Good thing your opinion is trumped by all of us who have the right to question the actions of our military, and we will continue to do so no matter how much one whines about it.

All of these are questions that are raised during the course of an investigation, passing judegemnt to soon makes us as the guy on the ground second guess ourselves and that can lead to us coming home in a flag draped box.

As much as I would not like to see a military person killed, I'd still rather see one U.S. military combatant death than 2 civilian non-combatant deaths, even more so since the war is premised on lies. My allegiance is to humanity and truth, not some policy based on lies. The flag comes 2nd to truth.

[CursedGTR]

Ah...ya didn't read the link did ya, Cursed? They were taken in Fallujah. And the Marine who did the shooting is facing a war crime trial for that killing this July.



Of course you have left out a very important point; that once a combatant is no longer resisting and not a threat, which is what the video caught on film seems to show, or at least enough to convince the military command and military prosecutor so; that a crime had been committed and worthy of investigation (which there was) which lead to charges, and now a trial.



Arm chair quarterbacks!? Pfft. Deal with it. They've been around for a long time and rightfully so, because a blank check written to armies is a result of disaster. Sorry you can't handle the criticisms of the civilian world which you are beholden to. It must really hurt one to have to be under our scrutiny, huh? Cry me a river, please.

Good thing your opinion is trumped by all of us who have the right to question the actions of our military, and we will continue to do so no matter how much one whines about it.



As much as I would not like to see a military person killed, I'd still rather see one U.S. military combatant death than 2 civilian non-combatant deaths, even more so since the war is premised on lies. My allegiance is to humanity and truth, not some policy based on lies. The flag comes 2nd to truth.


Watch TV much or even read??? AL Fajr was the operation name for the battle for Fallujah therefore the word during instead of in would indicate a possible operation name would you agree?? I did read the article and that is what lead me to my conclusion. Although I do not recall the specific dates of this.

I agree with civilian checks and balances as an Army uncontrolled by a civilian body is nothing more than a military dictatorship. However, once an order for an outcome is issued it should be the generals determining how to carry out said battle. Not some group of asswipes whose only exposure to war has been playing COD on their sons X Box or giving the order for war. They did not jump from the plane or get off the boat and assault a beach, they signed a piece of paper or watched it on Tv and then went to bed in a nice cozy bed that night and held their wife while soem spilled blood and screamed for their mothers as they died. That is why war should never be controlled by those who are not in uniform. Civilians should issue the desired outcome in order to reach the political objective they desire and then let the Generals do what Generals do.

Detainees who are part of a terrorist group are not fighting for a declared country nor do they have commanders that take responsibility for their actions. They are not uniformed and therefore are not always priveleged rights under the Geneva conventions, hence the reason we have shit like the detainee treatment act of 2005. Not saying they should be executed, but I am saying that they are not afforded the same protections as a real prisoner of war.

If you fear for your life (which that fear can be instilled by an insurgent who was trying to kill you not 5 minutes before) you have the inherent human right and duty to defend yourself. The article as I read it outlined a very important communication breakdown that indicated that those Marines were possibly under the impression that they were there to clear the building after an enemy force had retaken it. This is important to know because regular infantrymen are rarely taught descriminatory shooting techniques like the ones that SOF personnel use. Infantrymen, especially Marine infantrymen (as Rangers and the like are usually taught advanced techniques on a regular basis due to their SOF role) are taught dynamic clearing techniques which means you are assuming you will have to shoot upon entry into a room and therefore it becomes second nature. Want that changed, we will need about another billion added to our ammo and range budget alone, since those people who do it usually expend thousands of rounds each per week.

If all personnel within a geographic area have been declared hostile than this course of action is warranted. During the battle of Fallujah take 2 also known as Al Fajr, I would venture to say that those Marines were scared shitless. That is my only argument having fought in Fallujah in Vigilant Response (AKA Battle of Fallujah Take One). The video does not accurately portray the human dynamic encountered by those Marines when they entered that room nor does it properly portray what the preexisting conditions were that may have caused that type of reaction (were the Marines properly briefed????). These types of influences are rarely brought to light in today's witch hunts for "war criminals". Haditha was a bad case and was definitely something bad, but in this situation I say we have no right to judge. Just my opinion on that particular situation.

Having been in similar situations myself (entering a room where you do not know what is what and bullets are still flying outside), I have made the choice to shoot in some (they were in fact armed) and some they appeared to be armed (it was night time) and I just drilled the asshole as hard as I could. However, knowing what the enemy Tactics were in that battle, I probably would have shot that asshole to, if it appeared as if he was faking as others did. Alot of those "fakers" killed Marines with a grenade that was under their body, or attacked once Marines passed. What a shitty situation to be in and what a pitiful society we become when we side with our opponents over our servicemen when they are in that situation daily.

Just my opinon and it is not going to change in this case.

Haditha - I agree with those Marines being held accountable
Muhmadiyah (SP?) - I agree
Habbaniyah - I agree

All three of thsoe were obvious violations which resulted in civilian deaths and were close to being premeditated, but was the intent here murder or self preservation?? I think it was self preservation given the situation and I would never vote against these guys on a Jury.

Also, that article was written during AL Fajr as I checked the date on the top (November 16, 2004), IIRC this guy got off for the very reasons I stated above; he could prove that he did in fact fear for his life based on actions of the enemy during the battle.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Watch TV much or even read??? AL Fajr was the operation name for the battle for Fallujah therefore the word during instead of in would indicate a possible operation name would you agree?? I did read the article and that is what lead me to my conclusion. Although I do not recall the specific dates of this.

Not much TV,b ut I do read a lot. Not the Marine Gazette or Leatherneck, and for the most part, I think most civilian reporting has not refered to it as AL Fajr, and since the article being used above used Fallujah, why change it?

We will agree to disagree on the person in the article being charged.

[CursedGTR]

Not much TV,b ut I do read a lot. Not the Marine Gazette or Leatherneck, and for the most part, I think most civilian reporting has not refered to it as AL Fajr, and since the article being used above used Fallujah, why change it?

We will agree to disagree on the person in the article being charged.

O.k. the reference to Al Fajr is mainly in Military mags, however, it was given a name and it was on the news and in the papers. I am not going to change it though, because if others didn't know, now they know and they might be able to actually know what a military guy is talking about when he mentions that name.

Agree to disagree?? I can live with that.

[Old Timer]

As a former Marine I agree. But 25 30 years ago sex was the aggressive issue. A woman had two duties, bedroom and kitchen...........period!! Beatdowns on the street were also common. Times change. If 1975 Okinawa hit you now, most would run for bomb shelters. :old: :eek:

[TheNoNamedOne]

I am not going to change it though, because if others didn't know, now they know and they might be able to actually know what a military guy is talking about when he mentions that name.

Not just Marines, but perhaps this train of thought with wanting others to conform to military ways is part of the arrogance that makes many Okinawans have a bad image of the military.

Why wouldn't you change for the sake of a more simple understanding on a point, rather than force a term into the conversation when another term already exists that the person you are conversing with has already used and has referenced as part of the discussion? You saw that Fallujah was already references as a point in the article, why not be flexible and roll with it rather than force a new term in?

Don't Marines have the sense to ask "Where is the bathroom?" at times when they can judge their setting, rather than calling it a "head"?

Perhaps the inability to efficiently communicate with the local populace is also a reason adding to the image of Marines.

[CursedGTR]

Not just Marines, but perhaps this train of thought with wanting others to conform to military ways is part of the arrogance that makes many Okinawans have a bad image of the military.

Why wouldn't you change for the sake of a more simple understanding on a point, rather than force a term into the conversation when another term already exists that the person you are conversing with has already used and has referenced as part of the discussion? You saw that Fallujah was already references as a point in the article, why not be flexible and roll with it rather than force a new term in?

Don't Marines have the sense to ask "Where is the bathroom?" at times when they can judge their setting, rather than calling it a "head"?

Perhaps the inability to efficiently communicate with the local populace is also a reason adding to the image of Marines.


Don't go that deep into it. I refer to the "head" as a toilet or restroom out in town, I refer to a "Bulkhead" as a wall and I do not use military terms on a regular basis. But given the fact that a large number of people on this board are associated with or live near the military and most (from my observations) are not Okinawan, I find it hard to believe that naming an operation that has produced more media coverage than any other in recent history should not be named. So what if I name the op, we all knwo Fallujah, do you know the operation that produced 6 Navy Cross Awardees from one Battalion in a single battle??? It was Al Fajr the second battle for Fallujah as I originally posted.

I fought in Fallujah (Operation Vigilant Response which will always just be known as the fighting before the big battle), I did not fight during Al Fajr since I was already 3 months over my rotation date when I volunteered to do so and was forced to go home. However, it was apples and oranges between the two operations and to me, passing that knowledge is not forcing anything on anybody, you can learn about those who are around you or you can refuse. Take it as a grain of salt, call it AL Fajr, Call it Fallujah, I do not really care, but when you talk to me abotu Fallujah, I will ask you if you are talking about AL Fajr or the time during which I was there fighting.

Just as I learn about Okinawa (Not the canned World War II history crap) and I attempt to learn the language to get around, I truly believe that Okinawans when engaged with Marines or ANY other service would want to know little bits about the people they host. Maybe I am wrong, but that has not been my experience out in town. Alot of Okinawans I have met are very interested in what we do and not always for negative reasons, so I find your argument a bit trivial. As outlined, AL Fajr was a battle in Fallujah equivalent to Hue city and Mogadishu in the level of impact it had on the war we are currently engaged in. The impact this has when you bring it up with a local or anyone else that doesn't know is possibly trivial in itself or you might help them to understand a conversation they over hear or even just know what is being said when a young Marine slips up out in town and refers to it as Al Fajr instead of OIF or just Fallujah, maybe you might just be able to spark up a bit of a conversation with those who were there during that particular point in time in order to learn a little bit more about the points you yourself bring up concerning that battle.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Don't go that deep into it. I refer to the "head" as a toilet or restroom out in town, I refer to a "Bulkhead" as a wall and I do not use military terms on a regular basis. But given the fact that a large number of people on this board are associated with or live near the military and most (from my observations) are not Okinawan, I find it hard to believe that naming an operation that has produced more media coverage than any other in recent history should not be named. So what if I name the op, we all knwo Fallujah,...

Yes, and that term was the reference to the story. Simple.

What did I tell ya about efficiency? Have you guys graduated or evolved from the K.I.S.S. philosophy?

[CursedGTR]

Yes, and that term was the reference to the story. Simple.

What did I tell ya about efficiency? Have you guys graduated or evolved from the K.I.S.S. philosophy?

Fine TP, you want it modded, go in their and use your super moderator ninja skills and fix it, but I see no harm in my post and right now we are playing symantics and just toying with each others words to justify our own points. You have to admit it is kind of childish.

To me this is simple and is just being made difficult by the afforementioned symantics.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Cursed, who said anything about modding it? Is that it? That's your best you have? Resorting to the ol' fall back on "TP the mod" gig? Give me a break.

Your point on semantics is a fair one. It is beyond me why you just couldn't put that forth without making it a mod issue. But hey, I guess that is an easy way to get points and attaboys from those who read the thread. "Good goin', Cursed! You got another dig in there on his moddin'."

[CursedGTR]

Cursed, who said anything about modding it? Is that it? That's your best you have? Resorting to the ol' fall back on "TP the mod" gig? Give me a break.

Your point on semantics is a fair one. It is beyond me why you just couldn't put that forth without making it a mod issue. But hey, I guess that is an easy way to get points and attaboys from those who read the thread. "Good goin', Cursed! You got another dig in there on his moddin'."

Do not take it as a low blow, I am simply stating that I am not going to change it and if it is bothering you that much, I am not going to bitch if you take the time to do it yourself.