Sumo; a healthy sport?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I really dislike Sumo. Something about musceled men with layers of flapping obesity shimmering under sweat pushing each other out of a ring with belly slaps just does nothing for me in an aesthetic or sports sense. Even the salt throwing, foot stamping, funaboshi, topknot hairstyles etc... really does not intrigue me.

I know all sports are not about health. Crikey, some even consider poker to be a sport, but when strength of the body and movement of limbs are an integral part of a sport, I think health should be one of the over riding concerns of it.

Sumo training and the subsequent packing on of fat is just unhealthy, and I am baffeled why such men are idolized, and wonder why some parents encourage their young children to follow such an unhealthy lifestyle sport. I would prefer my children to choose a sport that teaches respect for the body and its health -- not one that disrespects it through making it imperative that one abuse it through becoming obese just to be at top competitive level. Let's face it, in Sumo, large amounts of obesity slapped over some muscle gives them the edge, and those are generally the ones who rise to the top ranks. The anomalies are far and few.

[jchan]

OK. So don't watch it.

[Muku]

Sumo is considered one of the martial arts. Next it is a cultural sport as well. The actual bouts are one thing but the training and dedication needed to advance and actually be succesful take for some years and years of training.

One thing that is amazing to me is the flexibility of those very large men. Like it or not it is a tradition here in Japan.



Where's the red moderators warning sign here?

OK. So don't watch it.


Even if it is a thread that has been raised from the dead!:eek::dead:

[DougP]

Whoa, yeah this thread is kinda old isn't it?:D I've been getting more and more into Sumo this past year. I have my favorites that I keep track of and have been watching a lot of the sitcom like antics that occur outside the dohyou:)

I don't suppose they're any more or less healthy than linebackers in the NFL. Actually they seem to do a lot better than American Professional Wrestlers do.

[TheNoNamedOne]

One thing that is amazing to me is the flexibility of those very large men.

Even more amazing with more serious rammifications than not being "flexible" enough to ....eeeerrrr...touch your toes....are these several things below, not to mention having a lower life expectancy than normal:

Because sumo wrestlers are very big and over weight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/find_out/guides/2003/sumo/newsid_2801000/2801119.stm), they can suffer from diabetes, heart, bone and joint problems.
"Whether they [young sumos] stop wrestling at a very early or late age they're very likely to have diabetes and heart disease.

"Unless the diabetes is attended to there is a very good chance they will not live as long as they ought to," explained health expert Hugh Davies.

I'd prefer to not have all that fat for "flexibility" and lower the chances significantly of all those negatives in the quote. Btw, watching Akebono do K1 fighting never convinced me of his flexibility prowess.

Oh well...

[DougP]

Their flexibility is more for safety than anything else. Falling down, being thrown down and supporting all that weight is a recipe for disaster. Having the flexibility that they do offers a better range of a motion for their joints lessening the impact and stress that can come from a bad fall etc. All in all though carrying around excess weight is never really healthy. Anyone who thinks that the hulkified pro wrestlers in the WWE are far more healthy than your Sumo wrestlers, than you are sadly mistaken, Many of them suffer much of the same draw backs and complications later on in life. Many of them have also died at a rather young age do to heart problems etc.

But for as out of shape as they do look they are very much in shape for their size. But hey, its all in the eye of the beholder. To each their own on this one. I find it to be far more exciting than say Cricket. :)

[TheNoNamedOne]

Their flexibility is more for safety than anything else. Falling down, being thrown down and supporting all that weight is a recipe for disaster. Having the flexibility that they do offers a better range of a motion for their joints lessening the impact and stress that can come from a bad fall etc.

I don't know, Doug. Do you think you could be confusing "flexibility" with "bounceability" and simple "padding". I sure can see how a lot of fat can help to insulate the core and bones from impacts.

[DougP]

I don't know, Doug. Do you think you could be confusing "flexibility" with "bounceability" and simple "padding". I sure can see how a lot of fat can help to insulate the core and bones from impacts.

Nope not at all. The same idea is pretty much encouraged in many forms of martial arts and not just for the prospect of high kicks.:) A flexible joint has the ability to move through a greater range of motion and requires less energy to do so, while greatly decreasing your risk of injury. Increasing flexibility by stretching decreases resistance in tissue structures. In turn, this makes it less likely to become injured by exceeding tissue extensibility (maximum range of tissues) during activity. :thumbup: If a Rikishi lands in a way where his leg is extended out forward touching his chest all the padding in the world wont prevent him from pulling a muscle or injuring tissue. Flexibility will.

[Muku]

I would also suggest taking a look at the unlimited weight class in judo as well. Those guys are huge too and their flexibility is amazing as well.

I highly doubt, dont know for sure, but would be willing to bet that prowrestlers in the US couldnt get down and do the splits, where just about any sumo rikishi can most certainly do.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Perhaps you'd like to see how these kids get such flexibility...

YouTube - 股割り

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Make no mistake Teep, these boys are flexible...

YouTube - Sumo tough love

YouTube - 片山のきれいな四股

[TheNoNamedOne]

Whoa, E!

If the first video is any indication as to how sumo training is conducted, and with recent news events on the abuse endemic within it is reported, I have no doubt that sumo wrestlers are abused into their flexibility. Who wouldn't be flexible after having their tendons stretched past the ripping point?

An abusive cultural sport is to be respected? Aethetics is fine but romanticizing abuse by some, which many Japanphiles/apoligists do, is perverse.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

TP, your first mistake is in calling this sport. Japan didn't have sports, or the concept of sports, until it was imported from the West during the Meiji Restoration. Sumo was at first part of religious ritual - an offering to the gods for a good harvest. From there, it became a sort of exhibition of strength and techniques, a form of entertainment if you will. The modern version of ozumo, or professional sumo, had it's early start at the dawn of the Edo period, a mere 400 years ago. Much of what is now a part of sumo is even more recent. The most significant change has taken place in the last 100 years.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP, your first mistake is in calling this sport. Japan didn't have sports, or the concept of sports, until it was imported from the West during the Meiji Restoration.

Fair enough on all that, E. I certainly use the word "sport" loosely when affixing it to Sumo. However, it has all the major points of modern sports (in addition to its cultural/religio aspects): competitions, winning, losing, advancing in ranked position, a field of play, and perhaps others.

The thread could easily be retitled to "Sumo: a healthy activity?" and still lose none of the valid points against it not being so.

Even the avelage Japanese may not sepalate the nuanced diffelence of it not being a leal sport when they accost you to do some Engrish lobbing flom you: e.g. "Do you rike sports? Do you know sumo?"

Well, I am sure you can picture it.

[okisteve]

The first video looks something like the "power stretch" done in my gym. Remember the Japanese are just a whole lot more flexible in their hip joints than we are because they grow up sitting in those uncomfortable-looking positions. I see folks in their 70s in the same position all the time. Well, maybe not with a foot attached to 130 kilos urging them on???

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Fair enough on all that, E. I certainly use the word "sport" loosely when affixing it to Sumo. However, it has all the major points of modern sports (in addition to its cultural/religio aspects): competitions, winning, losing, advancing in ranked position, a field of play, and perhaps others.

The thread could easily be retitled to "Sumo: a healthy activity?" and still lose none of the valid points against it not being so.

Even the avelage Japanese may not sepalate the nuanced diffelence of it not being a leal sport when they accost you to do some Engrish lobbing flom you: e.g. "Do you rike sports? Do you know sumo?"

Well, I am sure you can picture it.
Sumo has some semblence of modern sport, certainly. Most of these elements were added in the last century, as mentioned. Even the winning and losing are not exactly like sports in Western culture. There has been plenty of talk of scandals regarding match-fixing in sumo. There is some evidence (mostly circumstantial, but there) that this practice does occur. It has been examined in the media and purportedly in the Japan Sumo Association. Practically nothing has been done. Why? I submit that the aspect of performance art and exhibition has always been present, and though under more scrutiny now that the Japanese are more Westernized than their parents and grandparents, this part of ozumo remains and will remain for some time to come. You'll find the average Japanese fan much more attuned and accepting of this facet of sumo that the the average foreign fan.

[TheNoNamedOne]

E, out of concern for the health welfare of your son (hypothetically speaking), would you encourage him at a young age to take up the sport and to start putting on massive amounts of weight to give him an advantage? Would you feel comfortable knowing the kind of hazing and rankings and training that goes on in the stables to let him be subjected to that -- or even risked being subjected to that?

Would you rather he choose Judo, Karate, or one of the other Japanese martial arts?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Does this mean you are conceding the last point? You have suddenly veered in a new direction - a new line of questioning.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Does this mean you are conceding the last point? You have suddenly veered in a new direction - a new line of questioning.

You mean about sumo not being a sport? Sure. I don't think that is the main point of the discussion, though.

Rike I said, even the averlage Japanese person rooks at it as a kind of sport. I'm not talking about those who forrow it, but the avelage person.

I do not concede the point that it an unhealthy activity and does more harm for the body than good. But please entertain my questions above if you wouldn't mind. I think you would rather have a son not go into that martial sport if you could choose, or exert some influence on his choice.

I think that would be the more responsible thing for a parent to believe -- if the health welfare of their child was a major point with them.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I think the answer to your question is dependent upon a lot of different factors, concerning the behavior of the sumotori as both "an athlete" and as "a retiree". It's really hard to make generalizations, as it's not common to follow rikishi upon their retirement from a career "in the ring". I know of several prominent former sumo wrestlers who are in excellent condition, and may well outlive us all. I know of several others who are even bigger in their retirement than they ever were as "competitors". In each case, personal regimes seem to play the biggest role in the past and current condition they find themselves in.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Further, some of the same "abuses" seen in sumo can be seen across the spectrum of martial arts in Japan. Most people willingly enter sumo or dojo - whatever way of life they want to pursue. Many of these extreme teaching practices are falling into disuse with the advent of the professional martial arts teacher who takes a fee from students in exchange for lessons. The students want their money's worth from this arrangement, and being pushed to their physical and mental limits is usually *not* something they are paying for. Sumo, with it's more traditional apprentice system, does not have these same concerns.

[TheNoNamedOne]

E, you don't think there are any generalities that are true regarding the negative health aspects of Sumo?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I really dislike Sumo. Something about musceled men with layers of flapping obesity shimmering under sweat pushing each other out of a ring with belly slaps just does nothing for me in an aesthetic or sports sense. Even the salt throwing, foot stamping, funaboshi, topknot hairstyles etc... really does not intrigue me.
Just what is funaboshi?!

Sumo training and the subsequent packing on of fat is just unhealthy, and I am baffeled why such men are idolized, and wonder why some parents encourage their young children to follow such an unhealthy lifestyle sport. I would prefer my children to choose a sport that teaches respect for the body and its health -- not one that disrespects it through making it imperative that one abuse it through becoming obese just to be at top competitive level. Let's face it, in Sumo, large amounts of obesity slapped over some muscle gives them the edge, and those are generally the ones who rise to the top ranks. The anomalies are far and few.Sumo in it's current form can be seen as somewhat unhealthy. Especially since the 1980s when the Hawaiian influence came to be a big factor in sumo. Average weights in the top divisions (ie. salaried ranks) rose quite a bit in a relatively short amount of time, and the heavy, thruster type wrestlers became more and more common. Previous to that, rikishi tended to be more skilled in throws and yori sumo, or latching onto your opponents belt and forcing them out of the ring. More and more trainers recruited big, heavy kids and had them specialize in oshi-tsuki sumo, or pushing sumo. Take that, coupled with the rise in the use of steroids and HGH, and I think you have the makings of an unhealthy lifestyle. But, if that's the case, why not say the same thing about baseball...?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Just what is funaboshi?!

lol. Sorry, ..."mawashi."

[TheNoNamedOne]

More and more trainers recruited big, heavy kids and had them specialize in [i]oshi-tsuki[i] sumo, or pushing sumo. Take that, coupled with the rise in the use of steroids and HGH, and I think you have the makings of an unhealthy lifestyle. But, if that's the case, why not say the same thing about baseball...?

Agreed, steroid use in baseball creates an unhealthy sport as well. As of yet, though, I don't think we have seen any data of baseball players who have used steroids and what ill effects that have had on their overall health.

Furthermore, I am not sure that whitewashing the issue of Sumo health with baseball players' health is appropriate. Both could definitely be criticized separately from the other.

That is why I wouldn't say, "Hey so what if Bush started a war on poor CIA intelligence. CIA intelligence on Vietnam being wrong not understanding it was a nationalistic war and not an ideology war was also wrong. Let's accept and forgive both." Or, "So what if the U.S. employs torture techniques such as waterboarding, so does Egypt."

Whitewashing doesn't justify anything -- other than saying each can and should be examined AND most definitely should be separately on the merits of the arguments addressing each one -- not tied to a whole web that could link many issues around to others and multiply the problem of trying to sort through problems that are being examined for one target of examination.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Agreed, steroid use in baseball creates an unhealthy sport as well. As of yet, though, I don't think we have seen any data of baseball players who have used steroids and what ill effects that have had on their overall health.

Furthermore, I am not sure that whitewashing the issue of Sumo health with baseball players' health is appropriate. Both could definitely be criticized separately from the other.

Whoa TP, talk about smoke & mirrors! Who's whitewashing? I acknowledged that some of today's practices in sumo can be seen as unhealthy. I then made a connection to another sport. A connection is a far cry from a whitewash. My point was simply that you will find similar abuses in many pro sports if you care to look around, and that sumo is not more or less fundamentally bad for health than the shot knees of judoka or American football players, the broken teeth and noses of ice hockey players, and whatever ailments you find amongst rugby players, basketball players, and boxers.

[TheNoNamedOne]

My point was simply that you will find similar abuses in many pro sports if you care to look around, and that sumo is not more or less fundamentally bad for health than the shot knees of judoka or American football players, the broken teeth and noses of ice hockey players, and whatever ailments you find amongst rugby players, basketball players, and boxers.

Of course there are injuries in all sports, and different sports have their most common injuries peculiar to them. However, I think comparing structural injuries, such as injury to joints or bones, is not on the same level as injuries to organs which are more threatening to life. I think that is on a different level in general.

Excessive fat, which in today's sumo seems to be a characteristic of having, surely impedes the optimal health of organs -- such as the heart. Isn't heart disease over represented in sumo, or those who retired from it, compared to the rest of the population?

[DougP]

Well I definitely cannot argue the fact that having excessive weight is unhealthy no matter how active a person is or what sports they are actively engaging in. Added weight produces more stress on the skeletal, muscular, cardiovascular systems as well as many major organs. Its no secret that the body has to work exponentially harder than that of someone of lesser stature. Especially later on in life when such induced stresses have taken their toll and the practitioner is no longer as active and still carries around the extra weight. Its not a sport that I would choose, at least not for health reasons, to participate in. Now that "vegan" MMA practitioner seems to be more on the cutting edge of health. I'd prefer to go his route. :)

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Of course there are injuries in all sports, and different sports have their most common injuries peculiar to them. However, I think comparing structural injuries, such as injury to joints or bones, is not on the same level as injuries to organs which are more threatening to life. I think that is on a different level in general.

Excessive fat, which in today's sumo seems to be a characteristic of having, surely impedes the optimal health of organs -- such as the heart. Isn't heart disease over represented in sumo, or those who retired from it, compared to the rest of the population?
Speaking of trouble with organs, why don't we talk with Muhammad Ali. He may know a thing or two about injuries to organs, eh. Or hockey plays who have lost spleens to spearing incidents.

As to heart disease, this may help explain things to you...
http://www.thedoctorweighsin.com/journal/2007/12/5/why-dont-sumo-wrestlers-die-of-heart-disease.html
I wouldn't call the good doctor an expert on sumo by any means. But he seems to know a thing or two about health.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Speaking of trouble with organs, why don't we talk with Muhammad Ali. He may know a thing or two about injuries to organs, eh. Or hockey plays who have lost spleens to spearing incidents.

Yeah, perhaps those are unhealthy sports, too. Not saying Sumo is worse than those -- just saying it is unhealthy. However, I wonder what the overall injury rates as a percentage are in those sports and after affects after retirement are compared to the rates in Sumo? I don't think individual cases, such as Muhammed Ali, would give us a good picture.

As to heart disease, this may help explain things to you...
http://www.thedoctorweighsin.com/journal/2007/12/5/why-dont-sumo-wrestlers-die-of-heart-disease.html
I wouldn't call the good doctor an expert on sumo by any means. But he seems to know a thing or two about health.

E, from his writing:

I inquired about their health status after retirement, and to my surprise they were pronounced hale and fit into their 70s and 80s. I did not have an explanation. Received wisdom dictated that these people are sitting ducks for diabetes and heart disease.

Strange that he went into detail with some statistics from studies in the U.S. but did not list anything about his "inquiring". I have the image that he just walked around a sumo match/tournament he attended and did some casual questioning of those present. Far from scientific. But maybe you can find us his peer reviewed published research that resulted from his "inquireing".

I for one would find it quite interesting.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Strange that he went into detail with some statistics from studies in the U.S. but did not list anything about his "inquiring". I have the image that he just walked around a sumo match/tournament he attended and did some casual questioning of those present. Far from scientific. But maybe you can find us his peer reviewed published research that resulted from his "inquireing".

I for one would find it quite interesting.I think I might have mentioned the good doc wasn't really up on his sumo.:old: I think that any sumo wrestler that does not change their lifestyle after retirement is at greater risk for all sorts of obesity related ailments. Those that make a more successful transition would not be significantly different from the average citizen. I'd pit even the lowliest rikishi in a health challenge against your average porkchop from the US of A.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I think that any sumo wrestler that does not change their lifestyle after retirement is at greater risk for all sorts of obesity related ailments.

Certainly, but the unhealthy packing on weight from the active time as a sumo wrestler is the platform from where that springs from.

Those that make a more successful transition would not be significantly different from the average citizen.

Do most make that transition?

What is the average lifes pan of a sumo or former sumo wrestler? Is it lower than the average life span of an average citizen? I think reports say it is.

I'd pit even the lowliest rikishi in a health challenge against your average porkchop from the US of A.

Irrelevant. We are speaking of sumo in Japan with average Japanese people as the backdrop or control group to judge on -- unless we use U.S. sumo against an average U.S. citizen and Mongolian sumo against an average Mongolian citizen etc...

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Do most make that transition?

What is the average lifes pan of a sumo or former sumo wrestler? Is it lower than the average life span of an average citizen? I think reports say it is.
Show me...

[TheNoNamedOne]

Show me...

From Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumo#Life_as_a_professional_sumo_wrestler):

The negative effects of the sumo lifestyle become dangerously apparent later in life. Sumo wrestlers have a life expectancy of between 60 and 65, more than 10 years shorter than the average Japanese male. They often develop diabetes and high blood pressure, and are prone to heart attacks. The excessive intake of alcohol can lead to liver problems and the stress on their joints can cause arthritis. Recently, the standards of weight gain are becoming less strict, in an effort to improve the overall health of the wrestlers.[13][14] The average height of sumo wrestlers is around 178 cm (5' 10").

Well, at least it is good to see them acknowledge their unhealthy lifestyle and working to improve it. But, it is obvious they suffer from a shorter lifespan and a host of other health problems in higher proportions than the average Japanese citizen does.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I've watched the Discovery Channel episode where they follow an ex pro sumo wrestler in his new life as an amateur (footnote #13). Not sure that anecdote qualifies as any sort of scientific evidence. Also, I followed up the UN website listed as footnote #14. Everything's in Spanish. Care to translate that for us, TP? Or, should we just take your word for it that sumo wrestlers die young?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Also, I followed up the UN website listed as footnote #14. Everything's in Spanish. Care to translate that for us, TP?

No Spanish from me. Sorry.

Or, should we just take your word for it that sumo wrestlers die young?

Not my word at all. I provided a reference. Perhaps if you feel Wiki's info is wrong or you have evidence that contradicts that, and feel it maligns sumo to some extent, you can edit that info or register to discuss it with those persons who keep that page current. I think you can also take the innitiative to confirm that a number of other sights state that sumo wrestlers die younger than the average Japanese as well. A few key words should be sufficient to run a real quick search to confirm.

Also, I don't think I said they died, young, did I? To be more precise I think I may have said they died "younger" than the average Japanese. If I did say specifically they died young, and you point that out, I will definitely retract that. No problem in doing so on my side. But, show me.

Also I had asked you if most make the transition that you referred to previously. You have yet to answer that, and I suspect you do not know. Is that accurate to say you do not know?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Not my word at all. I provided a reference. Perhaps if you feel Wiki's info is wrong or you have evidence that contradicts that, and feel it maligns sumo to some extent, you can edit that info or register to discuss it with those persons who keep that page current. I think you can also take the innitiative to confirm that a number of other sights state that sumo wrestlers die younger than the average Japanese as well. A few key words should be sufficient to run a real quick search to confirm.
We've discussed the validity of Wikipedia before, and I think we agreed it left something to be desired, especially where primary sources were lacking or suspect. As in this case. I'm still waiting for anything that would convince me that you have a point. Surely you can find at least one additional source to your "evidence".

Also, I don't think I said they died, young, did I? To be more precise I think I may have said they died "younger" than the average Japanese. If I did say specifically they died young, and you point that out, I will definitely retract that. No problem in doing so on my side. But, show me.Nope, you didn't use those words - I paraphrased. I think this is a very minor point to get hung up on, and highlights the weakness of your argument. But, I guess you gotta take the points where you can get them.

Also I had asked you if most make the transition that you referred to previously. You have yet to answer that, and I suspect you do not know. Is that accurate to say you do not know?Perhaps this will refresh your memory:It's really hard to make generalizations, as it's not common to follow rikishi upon their retirement from a career "in the ring". I know of several prominent former sumo wrestlers who are in excellent condition, and may well outlive us all. I know of several others who are even bigger in their retirement than they ever were as "competitors".
As you can see, your question has been answered. I don't have any data on any large segment of retires, and the cases I do know about tend to go both ways. With the suspect data in your link, nothing at all has been settled.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

"Our message is that suffering years of misery to remain super-skinny is not going to have a big payoff in terms of a longer life," said UCLA evolutionary biologist John Phelan. "I once heard someone say caloric restriction may not make you live forever, but it sure would seem like it. Try to maintain a healthy body weight, but don't deprive yourself of all pleasure. Moderation appears to be a more sensible solution.
"With mice, if you restrict their caloric intake by 10 percent, they live longer than if they have unlimited access to food," Phelan said. "If you restrict their intake by 20 percent, they live even longer, and restrict them to 50 percent, they live longer still; but restrict their intake by 60 percent and they starve to death.
"Humans, in contrast, will not have rodent-like results from dramatically restricting calories," he said. "Caloric restriction is not a panacea. While caloric restriction is likely to be almost universal in its beneficial effects on longevity, the benefit to humans is going to be small, even if humans restrict their caloric intake substantially and over long periods of time."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050830065729.htm

[TheNoNamedOne]

We've discussed the validity of Wikipedia before, and I think we agreed it left something to be desired, especially where primary sources were lacking or suspect.

Wiki is fine unless there seems to be something that sets off warning flags. Noting a population subgroup where obesity is rampant, and what we know about heart disease and the risks of obesity, that information about sumo wrestlers dying younger than average is far from suspect.

That said, a real quick search found a famous sumo wrestler from within the sumo world acknowledging a shorter life span. I really am hard pressed to understand why you are grudgingly refusing to acknowledge it yourself, but that's ok. Here ya go:

In fact, there are plenty of reasons to steer one's children away from sumo. Early death in the professional circuit is tolerated as either inevitable or normal (In fact, there are plenty of reasons to steer one's children away from sumo. Early death in the professional circuit is tolerated as either inevitable or normal. "The competition out there is fierce," Wakanohana laments. "Death is the end of life, but it is also the end of sumo." While he concedes that obesity and the associated health complications do end lives early -- 50 to 60 being the typical life span of a wrestler -- he sees death as more integral to the philosophy of sumo.). "The competition out there is fierce," Wakanohana laments. "Death is the end of life, but it is also the end of sumo." While he concedes that obesity and the associated health complications do end lives early -- 50 to 60 being the typical life span of a wrestler -- he sees death as more integral to the philosophy of sumo.

Nope, you didn't use those words - I paraphrased. I think this is a very minor point to get hung up on, and highlights the weakness of your argument. But, I guess you gotta take the points where you can get them.

Well, I sure do not give points away as freebies for misrepresentations of what I said. Perhaps you are used to getting them that way.

Perhaps this will refresh your memory:It's really hard to make generalizations, as it's not common to follow rikishi upon their retirement from a career "in the ring". I know of several prominent former sumo wrestlers who are in excellent condition, and may well outlive us all. I know of several others who are even bigger in their retirement than they ever were as "competitors".

As you can see, your question has been answered.

Not really -- or perhaps kinda. Your answer was a sidestep. It would have been more gracious to have just said, "No, I do not know if most make the transition," and leave it at that rather than trying to redirect with a few cases. Your few cases add nothing of weight to the question.

[TheNoNamedOne]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050830065729.htm

What is the relevance to Sumo and early death from obesity related problems? Who said anything about trying to extend life by restricting caloric intake to make thin Sumo wrestlers? Are you reaching a bit? Or just off on a tangent?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

That said, a real quick search found a famous sumo wrestler from within the sumo world acknowledging a shorter life span. I really am hard pressed to understand why you are grudgingly refusing to acknowledge it yourself, but that's ok. Here ya go:

Your link appears to be broken. It doesn't matter. The point was about you doing your homework, and not relying on a bit where the references don't check out. A cursory check on Google would've supported your point much better...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&list_uids=7474495&cmd=Retrieve&indexed=google
http://www.banzuke.com/96-6/msg00064.html
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/DietNutrition/tb1/1626
First, they noted that in Japan, the average male adult consumes about 2,300 calories per day and lives to be on average 76.7 years. This population fell in the middle of a longevity and caloric intake spectrum.

Then they looked at either side of the spectrum. On one side were males living on the island of Okinawa, an area where residents are known for their simple diet and longevity. The researchers estimated male Okinawans consumed about 17% less than the average Japanese male, yet the average age for an Okinawan male was 77.5 years.

On the opposite side of the spectrum were Japan's Sumo wrestlers, who consume about 5,500 calories per day and live to be about 56 years old. Well, I sure do not give points away as freebies for misrepresentations of what I said. Perhaps you are used to getting them that way.Get real, TP. When someone kicks off younger than expected/average, people say they died young. In no way were your words misrepresented. The point you were *trying* to make was in no way damaged. :)

Not really -- or perhaps kinda. Your answer was a sidestep. It would have been more gracious to have just said, "No, I do not know if most make the transition," and leave it at that rather than trying to redirect with a few cases. Your few cases add nothing of weight to the question.You asked for what I knew personally, and I answered in good faith. No point in crying foul over that. My answer was in line with what of other sumo observes have said:

And upon retirement comes another challenge—losing the weight stacked on over a career.
“In general, specialists advise them to lose weight little by little, to cut down on alcohol and, for some of them, to ration their calorie intake as they are doing less exercise,” said Doreen Simmons, a sumo expert based in Japan.
“Some newly retired athletes are in very good form. When you see them in suits at functions, it is difficult to know that they were at one time sumo wrestlers,” she said.
But some wrestlers have not been so lucky.
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/may/18/yehey/opinion/20070518opi7.html

Sumos have a lot of subcutaneous fat but not arterial or deep-body fat, which is the most dangerous kind. But if they don't lose weight when they retire (about age 30, usually), fat distribution changes and they can develop heart problems, diabetes, and all the ailments that plague obese people. Physicians believe this is why many football players and weight-lifters have about the same life expectancy.
http://www.sdreader.com/php/ma_show.php?id=173

[TheNoNamedOne]

lol.

Ok, well, I am glad you had fun arguing against what you already knew. I knew it, too. But yeah, I will concede you are the better and faster google rat.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

There was an interesting point in one of the sites I linked to to help TP out with his chain of evidence...


In the chapter 10 "a path to longer life" in his book "Rikishi's medical report
from last 100 years of sumo (Rikishi 100-nen no Karute)", Dr. Hayashi said
that in the earlier years in the last 100 years, mainly Meiji, rikishi's life
span was actually longer than average Japanese. Rikishi's were early 50's,
while men's average life expectancy was early 40's in Japan.

But while average Japanese men's life expectancy grew to mid 70's, average
former rikishi dies sill around mid 50's. The difference is about 20 years.http://www.banzuke.com/96-6/msg00064.html

Sumo at one time did offer health benefits to its practitioners. Although many sites now claim an average lifespan of about 56 years-old for sumo wrestlers, the Discovery Channel website that is in the footnotes of the Wikipedia entry on sumo list 65 year-old as the average (which I personally find more convincing after following sumo closely for the past 10 years). In prewar photos of rikishi, one sees that though big guys, there was not nearly as much outright obesity as one sees since the 1960s or so. Westernization and economic prosperity brought ever increasing amounts of money, shady underworld connections, performance enhancing substances, and gluttony to the world of sumo. Kinda like Okinawan men losing their #1 ranking in national/world longevity to rich fatty diets & hard drinking and smoking.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

lol.

Ok, well, I am glad you had fun arguing against what you already knew. I knew it, too. But yeah, I will concede you are the better and faster google rat.
I didn't know the answer, which was why I argued the point. I learned more as I searched for evidence to back up what you were trying to argue.

I don't buy the stats saying the average lifespan of rikishi is about 56 years-old. I've seen no information in the last 10 years that would suggest a figure anywhere close to that number. The sources that did use that number don't show their data, so it's impossible to understand the context. I suspect that they are using a relatively short period, like a decade or two, where there were a rash of early deaths. Like the 1930s and 1940s, when Japan was in a constant state of war. Even the 1920s, when the Great Depression hit Japan even earlier than the West. Add in the very lean early post war years. I'm much more inclined to go with the 65 years-old figure.
http://www.discoverychannelasia.com/sumo/become_a_sumo_wrestler/index.shtml

[TheNoNamedOne]

I didn't know the answer, which was why I argued the point. I learned more as I searched for evidence to back up what you were trying to argue.

Either way, I am glad you learned what to most would seem obvious about a lifestyle that promotes obesity. The OP stated it quite clearly. Though, perhaps you thought an anomaly existed that made a group of obese people immune to obesity related diseases.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050830065729.htm

What is the relevance to Sumo and early death from obesity related problems? Who said anything about trying to extend life by restricting caloric intake to make thin Sumo wrestlers? Are you reaching a bit? Or just off on a tangent?
Did you actually read the article, or just go off the quote? There is a bit more if you care to click the link...

The human data factored into the mathematical model include the caloric intake of people in Japan, and their longevity, compared with sumo wrestlers, who consume more than twice the normal male diet, and men in Okinawa, Japan, who consume less than the average Japanese male.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Either way, I am glad you learned what to most would seem obvious about a lifestyle that promotes obesity. The OP stated it quite clearly. Though, perhaps you thought an anomaly existed that made a group of obese people immune to obesity related diseases.
You haven't forgotten the good doctor's work already, have you Teep? I'm wondering if you're getting enough calories for proper brain function ;)

http://www.thedoctorweighsin.com/journal/2007/12/5/why-dont-sumo-wrestlers-die-of-heart-disease.html

In a recent JAMA (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/gca?gca=298%2F21%2F2507&submit.x=61&submit.y=4) article scientists from the University of South Carolina in Columbia looked into the issue of adipocity (fatness) vs. cardiorespiratory fitness as determinants of death. In a 12-year study, researchers found that among 2603 American adults over 60 years old, those who engaged in cardiovascular activity were living longer than those who exercised less, even when they had the same amount of body fat. Previous studies have shown that both the level of cardiovascular fitness and the amount of body fat played a role in the health of older Americans. But this study shows that cardiorespiratory fitness helps adults over 60 live longer, regardless of body fat.

As coaches & trainers, I wonder if these retirees from pro sumo get more or less exercise than your average Suzuki six-pack?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yes, I have read it. Sumo wrestlers still die younger, and even using the figure you accepted, 65, 10 years is still a pretty good chunk of life. I have had a lot of great things happen in the last 10 years. I would not like to think they could have been lost, as well as others I know who have died much older. I wouldn't call their last 10 years unimportant or without value -- as if they were barely worth registering.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Yes, I have read it. Sumo wrestlers still die younger, and even using the figure you accepted, 65, 10 years is still a pretty good chunk of life. I have had a lot of great things happen in the last 10 years. I would not like to think they could have been lost, as well as others I know who have died much older. I wouldn't call their last 10 years unimportant or without value -- as if they were barely worth registering.
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your life these past 10 years. I think that may just go to show that you should live in the here and now, enjoy what you have when you have it, and not worry too much about whether or not you'll be around at age 55, 65, or 75.

[TheNoNamedOne]

You haven't forgotten the good doctor's work already, have you Teep? I'm wondering if you're getting enough calories for proper brain function ;)

Enough to still recognize the obvious. What's your excuse? ;)

But this study shows that cardiorespiratory fitness helps adults over 60 live longer, regardless of body fat.

As coaches & trainers, I wonder if these retirees from pro sumo get more or less exercise than your average Suzuki six-pack?

So it helps them live longer? How much longer? Show us where it says it brings them in line with the the average life span of their countrymen.

Still reaching to protect the image of something your are aesthetically attracted to, E?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your life these past 10 years. I think that may just go to show that you should live in the here and now, enjoy what you have when you have it, and not worry too much about whether or not you'll be around at age 55, 65, or 75.

Agreed. However, being prudent and not reckless does not qualify as "too much worry."

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

In support of your efforts to be prudent, I offer you a little more info about pro sports you ought to avoid (or have your kids stay away from) if you want to keep your/their health TP.

http://www.livingheartfoundation.org/professional.html

Anecdotal reports and two surveys suggest that musculoskeletal and cardiovascular problems are common in retirement. Rumors abound that the average life expectancy of players that play for 5 or more years is around 56 years. If this estimate were true, life expectancy for professional football players is significantly less than that for the USA population at large. It could also be speculated that the quality of life in later years is diminished in similar fashion.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well, good info for football players and/or their parents. Being here in this thread the info is kind of buried and not likely to attract their attention. Perhaps you should make a new thread with that info in the OP.

Other than that, do you have anything else to add about sumo wrestlers dying younger than average?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

This is for your edification, TP. You claim interest in health and a desire to be prudent.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1006/medicine.men100606.php3

It is not a widely disseminated, downloaded or discussed fact that the average life expectancy for all pro football players including all positions and backgrounds is 55 years. Several insurance carriers say it is 51 years.


Then, there's this theory, which would directly impact your beliefs about sumo...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20041228/ai_n12573483

This might not be a column for the ages -- but it is about ages. Reggie White's sudden and shocking death at 43 is yet another reminder of something I've noted over the years:
Old giants are few and far between.
The largest humans seem to be the first to go -- not as young as 43, of course, but too soon.
Think about it. When was the last time you saw an 80-year-old man who was 6-feet-5 and 300 pounds?

Google the words "life expectancy calendar," and you'll get a list of online life-expectancy surveys, usually provided by insurance companies. I found one that asked all sorts of questions about cholesterol, diet, alcohol intake, exercise habits, personality type, etc., and I filled it out twice, providing the same answers for every category except height and weight.

First, I entered a height of 6-feet and a weight of 185, and I tried to approximate the lifestyle of a recently retired pro athlete as I answered questions about workout habits, stress, diet, etc.


The online calculator provided a life expectancy of 77 years.
Then, I entered a height of 6-feet-5 and a weight of 300. With everything else being equal, the life expectancy dropped to 69.
This is why we have the phrases "little old lady" and "little old man." They're just not cliches, they're a reflection of reality.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yeah, interesting, E. I like your zeal in net searches. Why don't you find us a comparative study showing that Sumo wrestlers compared to average Japanese citizens have the same less life in percentage terms as football players in the U.S. do to U.S. citizens. Or baring that other sports as well.

Go get 'em!

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Yeah, interesting, E. I like your zeal in net searches. Why don't you find us a comparative study showing that Sumo wrestlers compared to average Japanese citizens have the same less life in percentage terms as football players in the U.S. do to U.S. citizens. Or baring that other sports as well.

Go get 'em!
The feeling's mutual, TP :)

I admire your dedication in keeping the threads so narrowly focused as to have very little meaning to anyone. :D Why don't you restrict the field of inquiry further, to only include gay rikishi from Hokkaido, weighing at least 333 pounds?

[TheNoNamedOne]

What are you talking about, E!? I just invited you to go on one of your Google hunts to show us the comparison -- an argument in which you seem to be trying to build that says Sumo wrestlers and other sports of big men have nothing different between them regarding early death.

I mean, do you want a laced invitation?

Well, where is your new Google search with the stats showing what you are trying to argue? Like I said, Go get 'em. We are waiting.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

You appear to have missed the last point completely, which was that fatsos of any type, especially big tall fatsos, are ripe for a coronary.

[TheNoNamedOne]

No, I didn't miss it. It fell far short. I asked you to show us a comparison.

Here, to help ya memory, E:

Why don't you find us a comparative study showing that Sumo wrestlers compared to average Japanese citizens have the same less life in percentage terms as football players in the U.S. do to U.S. citizens. Or baring that other sports as well.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

What are you talking about, E!? I just invited you to go on one of your Google hunts to show us the comparison -- an argument in which you seem to be trying to build that says Sumo wrestlers and other sports of big men have nothing different between them regarding early death.
TP, you're getting confused. You'll need to quote where I said that, but of course you can't. I have pointed out that pro athletes in other countries and in other sports suffer some of the same problems attributed to sumo wrestlers. If you want to dig deeper to find out just how they are related to one another, be my guest. My point's clear enough, and I've bailed you out enough in this thread. Your criteria for disliking sumo is that it is unhealthy, resulting in a lower life expectancy for pro sumotori. These very same criteria have been shown to apply to American football players, resulting in a strikingly similar lower life expectancy. Are you saying your principles are a matter of convenience? You apply them here and there as you like, but will not be held to them in all cases?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I see your Googling gas has run out, or hasn't it?

TP, you're getting confused. You'll need to quote where I said that, but of course you can't.

Said what? What did I specifically say you said?


I have pointed out that pro athletes in other countries and in other sports suffer some of the same problems attributed to sumo wrestlers.

Yes, that is obvious if they are as how you put it, fatsos (in any sport). I am not arguing against the obvious. Why are you stating the obvious when virtually all data lets us know that fatsos suffer from many of the same problems?

If you want to dig deeper to find out just how they are related to one another, be my guest.

You seem to be associating sumo with other sports, so the burden lies with you. I have not denied the same problems exist for fatsos in any sport. I doubt they exist in the same percentages as they do for Sumo, though. I think it is pretty obvious. I am quite satisfied with the obvious. That is why I don't go out of my way to google for it.

My point's clear enough, ...

Your point is merely one of trying to blur the lines, bringing in other subsets which you have been unable to show a percentage to the whole group and compare them to sumo, or at least insinuate there is no difference. You've failed miserably in that, E.

...and I've bailed you out enough in this thread.

What I see is you in a corner out of Google gas and not being able to put up after you tried to bring in some parallels. A dead end can be hard to turn around in.

Your criteria for disliking sumo is that it is unhealthy, resulting in a lower life expectancy for pro sumotori. These very same criteria have been shown to apply to American football players, resulting in a strikingly similar lower life expectancy.

Obviously you like sitting in the dead end. Again, where are the percentages to qualify this "strikingly similar" statement?

Are you saying your principles are a matter of convenience? You apply them here and there as you like, but will not be held to them in all cases?

If you show me the "strikingly similar" lower life expectancy of, for example football players as a percentage compared to the average citizen to that of Sumo and the Japanese average citizen, then I will gladly say "I don't like football either." You still have not done so.

Still waiting.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I see your Googling gas has run out, or hasn't it?

I'm not here to Google at your pleasure. I helped you out with some links for some points you had trouble backing up. Build on that if you need more evidence for your stretched reasoning.


Said what? What did I specifically say you said?
This ring a bell TP?
...an argument in which you seem to be trying to build that says Sumo wrestlers and other sports of big men have nothing different between them regarding early death.
Yes, that is obvious if they are as how you put it, fatsos (in any sport). I am not arguing against the obvious. Why are you stating the obvious when virtually all data lets us know that fatsos suffer from many of the same problems?
You constructed an argument based on fat=bad. You then attacked one very small segment of Japan, and refuse to see how your premise can equally and validly apply to any group, not only one single group you have it in for. You would have done better to say "large fat men in loincloths frighten me". You have failed to distinguish how the bigger-is-better mentality of sumo differs in any significant way from the attitude of American football, or indeed, of Americans in general.

You seem to be associating sumo with other sports, so the burden lies with you. I have not denied the same problems exist for fatsos in any sport. I doubt they exist in the same percentages as they do for Sumo, though. I think it is pretty obvious. I am quite satisfied with the obvious. That is why I don't go out of my way to google for it.
You have associated fat with sumo. Thank you Captain Obvious. Clearly you have very keen powers of observation. You seem to believe that tall fat men are the exclusive province of sumo, and there you are most certainly wrong.

Your point is merely one of trying to blur the lines, bringing in other subsets which you have been unable to show a percentage to the whole group and compare them to sumo, or at least insinuate there is no difference. You've failed miserably in that, E.
The sumo data I found for you (you're welcome) does not show these percentages for sumo either. If you have some secret data you've been waiting to spring on us, now's the time.

TP, you seem very willing to ignore a lot of obvious problems with your theory to try and win your point, while at the same time using other obvious points to construct your theory in the first place.


What I see is you in a corner out of Google gas and not being able to put up after you tried to bring in some parallels. A dead end can be hard to turn around in.
I've presented ample evidence to contract you. You've presented none in return. I refer you to the second quote in my sig.


Obviously you like sitting in the dead end. Again, where are the percentages to qualify this "strikingly similar" statement?
Let's start with your percentages, as you brought this thread to life. You make the argument, you support it. You can stall with your minute dissections of each punch I batter you with, but the bell will sound, and you'll have failed to counter-punch. Or is this some sort of rope-a-dope? No pun intended, TP ;)

If you show me the "strikingly similar" lower life expectancy of, for example football players as a percentage compared to the average citizen to that of Sumo and the Japanese average citizen, then I will gladly say "I don't like football either." You still have not done so.
Let's have the sumo figures first. In percentages, as you seem to prefer. Where are they? If you don't have those, how can you sit there and beg for the other data? Have you no shame?:rolleyes:

Still waiting.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I'm not here to Google at your pleasure.

I thought it was for your pleasure in seeking the obvious. I notice though, when you can't support what you are insinuating your searches come to a screeching halt.

I helped you out with some links for some points you had trouble backing up. Build on that if you need more evidence for your stretched reasoning.

I see you think you got a point with linking to the obvious. Those links you provided only confirmed that sumo die younger than normal. I really don't need a link to tell me what we know in this day and age as pretty much common sense, but hey...if you do...then so be it.


This ring a bell TP?
...an argument in which you seem to be trying to build that says Sumo wrestlers and other sports of big men have nothing different between them regarding early death.


Sure, that is what you seem to be insinuating. Why bring in football players, then? Where have I ever said fatsos in football don't suffer health problems similar to Sumo. Again, just a feeble attempt on your part to blur the focus on sumo. Don't take fat men so personal, E.



You constructed an argument based on fat=bad.

Straw man. Well, at least we know you can construct something well now.

My argument for not liking sumo is based on not liking it aesthetically and that it is unhealthy and predominantly so. Go back and read the OP. The argument is not how you characterized it, but rather:

Unhealthy=bad,

or more accurately,

Unhealthy=aesthetically displeasing to me.

Go back and read the OP, Eel.

You seem to believe that tall fat men are the exclusive province of sumo, and there you are most certainly wrong.

Really? I think I clearly agreed to your point that fatsos exist in other sports such as football as well. Pay attention!

The sumo data I found for you (you're welcome) does not show these percentages for sumo either. If you have some secret data you've been waiting to spring on us, now's the time.

E, if you brought the other subsets of sports to the discussion to make a point using them, then it is clearly you who hold the burden to prove your point, or to even try making one. Again, you have not. The only thing you seem to trying to be good at is shirking your responsibility on the matter.

Try not to be a slacker.

TP, you seem very willing to ignore a lot of obvious problems with your theory to try and win your point, while at the same time using other obvious points to construct your theory in the first place.

What theory are you talking about E? Are you talking about your straw man above fat=bad? Well, you can play with what you construct yourself. Where have I said that fat=bad? Go to the OP, it is quite clear I state my opinion on not liking sumo because it is not aesthetically pleasing to me. If you like watching the skin of two fatso men mostly naked slapping together pushing and pulling, in a high risk group for heart disease, and throwing salt prior to their collision, then fine. If that is your thing...I am not falting you for that. Ogle them all you like.

As it pertains to the OP, I stated why it is not aesthetically appealing to myself.

I've presented ample evidence to contract you. You've presented none in return. I refer you to the second quote in my sig.

The only evidence relevent to sumo you provided were links that support the early death of Sumo wrestlers. All your other links talked about other sports or fat men on the periphery. You don't hit the bull's eye with the periphery, Eel. That is why I pointed you in the right direction to what you would need to make your point. You seem to be resistant going there because I think you know "there" does not exist.

Let's start with your percentages, as you brought this thread to life. You make the argument, you support it.

<sigh> E, you need to be more clear in what you are taking issue with in the OP as it relates to my opinion as aesthetics. Perhaps there is a comprehension problem on your part. I encourage you to go back to the OP and reread it. Perhaps the added time until then will have helped you with the large amount of obtuseness you have been displaying, and quite well may I add.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

TP, you are persistent. Let's see if we can't clear up your misunderstandings.

I really dislike Sumo. Something about musceled men with layers of flapping obesity shimmering under sweat pushing each other out of a ring with belly slaps just does nothing for me in an aesthetic or sports sense.
OK, you don't appreciate the aesthetics of sumo. To each their own. Could you explain what you mean by doing nothing for you in a "sports sense"?

I know all sports are not about health. Crikey, some even consider poker to be a sport, but when strength of the body and movement of limbs are an integral part of a sport, I think health should be one of the over riding concerns of it.
I do like your imitation of the Crocodile Hunter. I think it adds to your credibility. ;)

I do wonder how you fail to see that your statement applies equally to all sports. You state quite clearly you believe that health should be an overriding concern of a sport. So, in what way is sumo less healthy than the counter example of American football? We've seen data that show a comparable life expectancy for both pro football players and sumo wrestlers. These life expectancies are considerably lower than other men of their nationality. We have two sports in two countries that seem to be very unhealthy choices when pursued at the pro level. While you may find football more aesthetically pleasing, in what way do you find it healthier? What about sumo singles it out for unhealthiness? We have already seen that life expectancy for rikishi more or less the same as that for football players. What other criteria do you have for measuring unhealthiness, and what study or stats do you have to demonstrate the validity of your claim?

Sumo training and the subsequent packing on of fat is just unhealthy, and I am baffeled why such men are idolized, and wonder why some parents encourage their young children to follow such an unhealthy lifestyle sport. I would prefer my children to choose a sport that teaches respect for the body and its health -- not one that disrespects it through making it imperative that one abuse it through becoming obese just to be at top competitive level. Let's face it, in Sumo, large amounts of obesity slapped over some muscle gives them the edge, and those are generally the ones who rise to the top ranks. The anomalies are far and few.
Well, no-one has argued that becoming extremely fat is good for you. So that is no point of contention. Yes, some sumotori are idolized (though less and less in this day and age), due to their feats of strength and agility and technical skill. Sumo has always been a larger-than-life demonstration of these feats of power and skill. Though sheer bulk certainly gives a rikishi an advantage, mass alone is not enough to reach the top. Without forging their bodies and minds, the bulk will end up a liability. If a sumo wrestler reaches a high level of skill, more weight will generally be an asset. This is true up to a point. Many have gone too far, and the reduced mobility, combined with the stress on the legs, knees, and ankles, proved too much.

Parents sometimes encourage their kids to join to teach them discipline and hard work (like the recent case of the parents of the wrestler who was beaten to death). Other parents acquiese to their child's wish to join. Still other parents / kids are convinced by scouts. There must be a multitude of reasons. In most cases, I think the parents believe the oyakata will be like surrogate parent, and always keep their child's best interests in mind. This may often be the case, but sometimes things get out of hand.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I see you are still trying to back out of the dead end you have driven into, E. What? Still out of Google gas?

OK, you don't appreciate the aesthetics of sumo. To each their own. Could you explain what you mean by doing nothing for you in a "sports sense"?

Like poker. Personally, I find it unexciting. Though, if you want to consider it not a sport, which we have already discussed, I am fine with that, too. Hence, maybe that is why it does nothing for me in a "sports" sense, because like we agreed -- it is not really a sport.

I do like your imitation of the Crocodile Hunter. I think it adds to your credibility. ;)

That's what I thought about your prepubescent rolley eyes. But E, it is just a word, no different than someone accusing you of trying to imitate Bruce Lee, either with avatar or ass-backward name. Don't get hung up on it.

I do wonder how you fail to see that your statement applies equally to all sports. You state quite clearly you believe that health should be an overriding concern of a sport. So, in what way is sumo less healthy than the counter example of American football? We've seen data that show a comparable life expectancy for both pro football players and sumo wrestlers.

E, this is like the 4th time I've asked you, where is the data showing football players as a whole group suffer the same or very similar rates of deaths and percentages to the population base as Sumo wrestlers do, where the average life span by your own admission, and a conservative number at that, is 65. You have yet to show that. Show us with your Google magic that a large percentage of footballers comparable to Sumo wrestlers die at 65. You think you have given some kind of pertinent data, but you have not -- other than that fatsos die younger than average. But where is the comparable rate between Sumo and football?

Now I know where all your gas has gone -- you've been sniffing it.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

TP,

We've both shown that we can jab at will with all the snips and jibes. What say we keep from being mooks (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mook), and get to the nitty-gritty of having focused, spirited debate.

I see you are still trying to back out of the dead end you have driven into, E. What? Still out of Google gas?
No dead end. I really am waiting for you to actually examine what's been presented. I don't get the feeling you've done that. Can you honestly say you've read through the material I presented. If not, please do so. If so, then let's discuss it on its merits.

Like poker. Personally, I find it unexciting. Though, if you want to consider it not a sport, which we have already discussed, I am fine with that, too. Hence, maybe that is why it does nothing for me in a "sports" sense, because like we agreed -- it is not really a sport.
Yes, it's not completely a sport in the Western sense. There are elements of sport, some of which you listed. Do you like those elements, and dislike the ritual aspect? Or is it purely an aesthetic distaste in the sense that the wrestlers are fat and practically naked?

E, this is like the 4th time I've asked you, where is the data showing football players as a whole group suffer the same or very similar rates of deaths and percentages to the population base as Sumo wrestlers do, where the average life span by your own admission, and a conservative number at that, is 65. You have yet to show that. Show us with your Google magic that a large percentage of footballers comparable to Sumo wrestlers die at 65. You think you have given some kind of pertinent data, but you have not -- other than that fatsos die younger than average. But where is the comparable rate between Sumo and football?

Please do go back and take a look at the links I gave for the football data. They are no less conclusive (at least in Internet form) than the sumo data. Neither the football nor the sumo links gives us the original study, so we only have the summaries to go on.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1006/medicine.men100606.php3
http://www.livingheartfoundation.org/professional.html
We have a very similar reports about both sumo and pro football. We don't have access to the originals where we would be able to see all the data. If you feel these links about football players' life expectancy differs in some significant way from the sumo links I provided earlier, could you show me those points of contention you have? Thanks in advance.

[TheNoNamedOne]

TP,

We've both shown that we can jab at will with all the snips and jibes. What say we keep from being mooks (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mook), and get to the nitty-gritty of having focused, spirited debate.

Agreed. Not sure why you chose to start going down that road to begin with.

No dead end. I really am waiting for you to actually examine what's been presented. I don't get the feeling you've done that. Can you honestly say you've read through the material I presented.

E, I've read each of those links you gave me twice, and still have not seen anything that says footballers, too, like sumo wrestlers have the same lower lifespan as a percentage comparable to their respective citizens. And that is what it is going to take if you want me to agree that sumo wrestlers and footballers (or the activity/sport) are equal in terms of ill health.

Perhaps you could quote that here clearly, because I am not going to read the links a third time, when even once was enough. But, I welcome your quote with that information if you can find it and put it in your next reply.

Yes, it's not completely a sport in the Western sense. There are elements of sport, some of which you listed. Do you like those elements, and dislike the ritual aspect? Or is it purely an aesthetic distaste in the sense that the wrestlers are fat and practically naked?

It is mainly that of aethsetics, and knowing that fat deliberately put on is the cause of ill health, which I find to be disrespectful to the body, in a way abusing it to great lengths. Yeah, I know that other sports abuse their bodies, and that, too, is bad, but it seems like sumo's extreme form of abuse of it leads to a much shorter life span on average for them.

I guess the extreme deliberate damaging of the body is what mostly turns me off to it. Being mostly naked just makes that point stand out more.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Agreed. Not sure why you chose to start going down that road to begin with.
It takes two to tango, TP. No sure why you choose to go there either.



E, I've read each of those links you gave me twice, and still have not seen anything that says footballers, too, like sumo wrestlers have the same lower lifespan as a percentage comparable to their respective citizens. And that is what it is going to take if you want me to agree that sumo wrestlers and footballers (or the activity/sport) are equal in terms of ill health.

Perhaps you could quote that here clearly, because I am not going to read the links a third time, when even once was enough. But, I welcome your quote with that information if you can find it and put it in your next reply.
SUMO
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/DietNutrition/tb1/1626
First, they noted that in Japan, the average male adult consumes about 2,300 calories per day and lives to be on average 76.7 years. This population fell in the middle of a longevity and caloric intake spectrum.


...On the opposite side of the spectrum were Japan's Sumo wrestlers, who consume about 5,500 calories per day and live to be about 56 years old.
PRO FOOTBALL
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1006/medicine.men100606.php3
It is not a widely disseminated, downloaded or discussed fact that the average life expectancy for all pro football players including all positions and backgrounds is 55 years. Several insurance carriers say it is 51 years.
http://www.livingheartfoundation.org/professional.html
Anecdotal reports and two surveys suggest that musculoskeletal and cardiovascular problems are common in retirement. Rumors abound that the average life expectancy of players that play for 5 or more years is around 56 years. If this estimate were true, life expectancy for professional football players is significantly less than that for the USA population at large. It could also be speculated that the quality of life in later years is diminished in similar fashion.

It is mainly that of aethsetics, and knowing that fat deliberately put on is the cause of ill health, which I find to be disrespectful to the body, in a way abusing it to great lengths. Yeah, I know that other sports abuse their bodies, and that, too, is bad, but it seems like sumo's extreme form of abuse of it leads to a much shorter life span on average for them.

I guess the extreme deliberate damaging of the body is what mostly turns me off to it. Being mostly naked just makes that point stand out more.
I think I see what you want to say, but I think the health issue with sumo is a red herring to cover your distaste for large, rotund men parading in very little clothing in public. Many foreigners can't get over their cultural conditioning, and them's the breaks. I do wonder why it's necessary to hide that in a veneer of concern for health. Were health really that important to the equation, you'd disavow football just as vociferously as you do sumo.

[TheNoNamedOne]

SUMO
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/DietNutrition/tb1/1626
First, they noted that in Japan, the average male adult consumes about 2,300 calories per day and lives to be on average 76.7 years. This population fell in the middle of a longevity and caloric intake spectrum.

...On the opposite side of the spectrum were Japan's Sumo wrestlers, who consume about 5,500 calories per day and live to be about 56 years old.


E, I notice your above quote comes from a professional health/medical site, and all that is fine, but you contrast that with basically rumors from a site with football player life expectancy stats.

PRO FOOTBALL
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1006/medicine.men100606.php3
It is not a widely disseminated, downloaded or discussed fact that the average life expectancy for all pro football players including all positions and backgrounds is 55 years. Several insurance carriers say it is 51 years.

Which insurance carriers and what studies have they based that on? Where is the data? Is this article's information more acceptabe than Wiki's information on sumo which you seemed to dismiss, causing you to follow-up on their sources to confirm it? Are you going to exhibit the same care and follow up on this info before accepting it? Or until it is confirmed, should it, too, be dismissed?


[/INDENT] http://www.livingheartfoundation.org/professional.html
Anecdotal reports and two surveys suggest that musculoskeletal and cardiovascular problems are common in retirement. Rumors abound that the average life expectancy of players that play for 5 or more years is around 56 years. If this estimate were true, life expectancy for professional football players is significantly less than that for the USA population at large. It could also be speculated that the quality of life in later years is diminished in similar fashion.


E, all I see there is rumors and conjecture. And just to add to the point of it being unsubstantiated rumor mill gossip, take a look at the bottom of this article:

"There are all of those rumors (http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071213/SPORTS01/712130408/1027/RSS0201) going around that the average lifespan of an NFL player is 57 years. That's not true. That's just kind of a little legend they pass around to scare you.

Perhaps you could find an official study by the NFL or find those studies that those unnamed insurance companies with their supposed 51 year age listed.

The reason why I doubt that on average football players die such a young age as do sumo wrestlers do is because not all football players are fatso linemen. There are many lithe players in the league as well. However, look at Sumo wrestlers; while yes, there are the anomalies where some are not fatsos, the majority, and predominantly so, are. The good number of lithe football players should act as a pull on the average numbers bringing life expectancy up (though not to the national average), whereas as the anomaly sumo wrestlers who are not fatsos, would not substantially be able to raise the average.

I think I see what you want to say, but I think the health issue with sumo is a red herring to cover your distaste for large, rotund men parading in very little clothing in public.

The visual of all that fat just highlights in my mind the danger of such a lifestyle. Now, if there were a large number of lithe professional sumo players comparable in percentage to those of football, then perhaps the visual aspect would not register -- after all the scenery would change and not one stereotype (in this case based on reality) would not take hold. I dunno -- maybe having sumo wrestlers wear large jerseys hiding their rolls of fat could go a long way towards that one aspect of my not liking it.

Were health really that important to the equation, you'd disavow football just as vociferously as you do sumo.

Perhaps, if you can find more than just rumor mill information.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I will endeavor to find some sumo stats to compare to this, but in the meantime, please have a look at the football data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football

Despite protective equipment and rule changes to emphasize safety, injuries remain very common in football. It is increasingly rare, for example, for NFL quarterbacks or running backs (who take the most direct hits) to make it through an entire season without missing some time to injury. Additionally, 28 football players, mostly high schoolers, died from direct football injuries in the years 2000-05 and an additional 68 died indirectly from dehydration or other examples of "non-physical" dangers, according to the National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football#_note-5) Concussions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion) are common, with about 41,000 suffered every year among high school players according to the Brain Injury Association of Arizona.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football#_note-6)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football

From 1931 to 2006, the National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research has reported 1,002 direct and 674 indirect fatalities resulting from participation in all organized football (professional, college, highschool, and sandlot) in the US [2] (http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/FootballInjuryData.htm). While the yearly number of indirect fatalities has remained near 9 per year, the yearly number of direct fatalities has declined from an average of 18.6 per year between 1931-1970, 9.5 per year from 1971-1990, to 4.3 per year from 1991-2006. In 2006, with an estimated 1.8 million participants in organized football, the survey reported a relatively high 16 indirect deaths but only one fatality directly attributable to football play (a highschool running back who suffered a fatal spinal injury when tackled)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football#_note-0) [3] (http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/SurveyofFootballInjuries.htm).

On the other hand, the number of injuries (per participant) seems to have increased over the years: a 1994 Ball State University survey found that "players in the 1980s suffered serious injuries and underwent operations at twice the rate of those who played in the 1950s or earlier" [4] (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/09/01/IN183821.DTL). A 2000 University of North Carolina study found that in the period between 1977 and 1998, each year on average 13 athletes had suffered catastrophic injuries (primarily permanent paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralysis)) through direct result of participation in football: " 200 football players received a permanent cervical cord injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_cord_injury), and 66 sustained a permanent cerebral injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_brain_injury)" [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football#_note-1). Concussions are common, with an estimated 40,000 suffered every year among high school players alone [5] (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-23-2005/0004093186&EDATE=). The National Football League now collects benchmark measures of awareness for each player, which can be used during a game to judge whether he has been concussed.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Health_issues_in_American_football&action=edit&section=5)] Impact on post-career life

The average NFL career lasts only 3.8 years[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football#_note-2). Injuries sustained by football players are often permanent. Many former football players experience pain, sometimes severe, that lasts for the rest of their lives. Many players require surgery, even multiple surgeries, for injuries experienced years earlier.

Newspaper reporters who have interviewed former football players who are crippled or in pain as a result of their former sport find that a player will never (or virtually never) express regret over his choice of career. The players often state that the thrill of playing football was worth the price of a lifetime of subsequent pain.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
Deaths and long-term disability attributed to illegal use of anabolic steroids have become a new factor in this picture, starting in about the 1990s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s).[

[Tony Stacks]

No it is not very healthy at all but I think all sports have risks of some kind.

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

So what is your point?
I don't believe you tried to read through the thread and understand what was being asked and said. You took one small part of the last post and made a completely uneducated post. Please come back after you've caught up.

[Tony Stacks]

..........

[TheNoNamedOne]

Eel and Tony, could you guys both go back and voluntarily delete your previous posts or try and reword them to not be so "jabbing." Tony, I know you didn't read the whole thread, and E, probably you know he didn't either, but it would be appreciated if you both could police yourself here. Thanks.

Edit to add: No huge foul on either of you, but again, let's try to keep the peace a little here. Also, I see Tony is logged off, so if his isn't edited within a few hours I will do so. E, you could do yours first. Again, thanks.

[Mad Hatter]

I don't want to get into the middle of you two's love fest... but I would be a Sumo in a heart beat. They are viewed as all stars and all they have to do is throw another man to the ground... they get all the women they want and all they have to do is eat all their favorite foods (FOR FREE)... I would make millions making fat look DEAD SEXXXY! :)

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

I would be a Sumo in a heart beat.
That's like saying "I would be a football in a heartbeat." Sumo is a "sport", a sumotori/rikishi/sumo wrestler is a participant.

[DougP]

Well I would be a football in a heartbeat.. er wait no I wouldn't.:D Perhaps a speculum would be better.:)

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

Well I would be a football in a heartbeat.. er wait no I wouldn't.:D Perhaps a speculum would be better.:)
You wanna be a loincloth, just say the word. I'm pretty sure I can arrange it. I shit you not:cool:

[DougP]

loincloth?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/DougGTR32/_370.gif

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/otokonoyama/japan-sumo-p-683.jpg

You want I should hook you up?

[DougP]

nah, that's ok, I'd rather be the salt. I see where you were going now...:D

[kombu_kid]

It does make you wonder, though, the ones who are recruited to be a sumo-wrestler or a football player.....are most likely big guys and are able to pack on more weight naturally....and I would guess might die a bit sooner than the average person from their home country, wherever that may be, just from their genetics.

Another point is, competition in many sports, at the top, has got to be gruelling and intense and probably damages the body permanently on different levels.......such as gymnastics and damaged joints/ligaments/tendons...whatever.

I got my kids into swimming at an early age......that seemed to me to be the ultimate sport....except not exactly a super "team type" effort. I wouldn't ever encourage my kids to get into sumo wrestling.......but football...yeah. Hey, you can't live forever, and is living a boring life, just to pursue total health and longevity really a cool life anyway? Once you adhere to that thinking, any activity that's dangerous or extreme should be blacklisted. No thanks......life is for living.

[TheNoNamedOne]

btw, e, i thought those were all interesting stats you posted on the previouse page about football. but the man in the t-back did nothing for me.

anyway, ithink you made some good points about health. not ready to say i,m giving up the point on health, but can say your points have made me lesson that part of my dislike for it. but other than that, persoanaly, I just have to say i find it aesthetically unappealling, and if linebackers were in t-backs, i would probably say the same for football.

i geuus there really is some truth to -- out of sight out of mind.

[okiprince07]

this is what is crazy..i live in japan and talking to my japanese wife, many many many beautiful, hot, sexy, model japanese women think they are sexy. alomst all, if not all, sumo wrestlers have model wives or extremely hot wives..maybe because of money but she said cause they always are sweet and they have a very good heart...but i dont know about appearance and "performance"...maybe thats a different story...