Do you support the U.S. war in Iraq?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I do not.

I feel it is an illigitimate war due to the fact that our decision to support the president was one made from false claims of threats that the administration knew were not true, or that the probability of them being true were questionable -- if not quite low.

Since our involvement the war has been mishandled and our continued reasons to stay are often worded in mindless plattitudes such as, "If we leave now all those lives would have been in vain," or "We've invested so much now," or "We are fighting there to preserve our freedom," or "better to fight the terrorists in their own country," etc...

If you support the war in Iraq, why? And why do you think it is winnable at this point? And what is victory?

[dk]

If you support the war in Iraq, why? And why do you think it is winnable at this point? And what is victory?

I was under the impression that the war was won over two years ago. Or was it three?

http://www.davidstuff.com/usa/lincoln/bush-mission.jpg

In all honesty, I never agreed with the "war". You can't even call it a war. We were never at war with Iraq. We went in under so many different guises. We went in to liberate the iraqis. To free the iraqis. To topple Saddam. To tackle Al Queda. Bush changed his speech so many times I have no idea what our goal even is anymore over there.

WTF ever happened to finding Bin Ladin. I always thought that was priority numero uno.

Anyway, I can't even take part in this conversation anymore. It's been beat to death and no matter what I or anyone says, we're powerless to make a difference in the matter.

It makes me sick but Iraq is one reason I stopped caring about politics all together. It's a fabricated war by an illegitimate president IMO.

I do support our troops however. I think now that the government has our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers, relatives, and friends stuck over there, it better damn well make sure that they're properly equipped with whatever it takes to get the task done. Whatever that task is. And to keep them as safe as possible. This is now the governments responsibility. It got them into this mess. It better get them out of this mess.

[InDuhUSA]

I support the war in Iraq because of what I have heard from those who have been there. I have little to no trust in the media because they distort much and do not report everything. I talk to others who have been there and they tell me what a great job the troops are doing there. They are building schools, feeding the poor, offering a level of protections that was not there before, etc.

Everyone claims that Bush lied to get a war started yet all of the same so-called political leaders who are mouthing off at Bush saw the same intelligence reports and believed it. Now they all want to put the onus on Bush. It's pitiful what politicians will do to save face. So many of them are more concerned about their political careers than they are about our troops.

Finally, I am sure that our enemies are full of glee to see the lack of support by Americans of their president. Most other countries a person would either be dead, in prison, or severely handicapped for saying the things they do about the president. yet Americans have the freedom to curse the president and get away with it because of the troops overseas protecting that freedom.

[dk]

Not all politicians believed the intelligence. This arguement is one I'm hearing a lot lately and heard from my own relative only last week, so I'm going to assume that the (don't want to say pro-war) anti-anti-invasion media is probably spreading this idea.

I clearly recall Colin Powel becoming infuriated while told to recide a bunch of lies at the UN and saying something along the lines of "I'm not reading this BS". And when the US was looking for support to invade Iraq, the vast majority of the world political leaders did not buy into the "intelligence".

Hell, I as a commoner, didn't even buy into the intelligence. It was clear as day--at least to me--just from paying attention to what was being said on both sides of the fence that everything we were being told was fabricated to lie us into war. One of these days when I'm really bored, maybe I'll go through the old forum database and drag out some of my old thought out posts. I really don't have the energy to go into it anymore, but everytime I hear anything about Iraq and what's happening now, all I ever want to say is "I TOLD YOU SO."

And everything Bush's crew was saying happened to go against everything the actual weapons inspectors were saying. I'm not going to be so naive and say that without a doubt the weapons inspectors uncovered every rock and knew without a shadow of a doubt that there were no weapons in Iraq. But Bush's crew was so quick to dismiss any word that the weapons inpectors were saying if it went against the idea that Iraq had WMD that it was obvious--at least to me--that this whole WMD thing was a lie. Or at least not top priority. And do you remember the lunacy everytime a potential WMD was found in Iraq? Remember those silly trucks that were found with some white powder that turned out to be... what was it? Chalk? I don't even remember... But it wasn't WMD.

As far as Iraq is concerned, top priority was setting up a more US-friendly government. Period. That's how I see it at least. Prove me wrong. Anybody.

Can you actually look at Afghanistan and how we prioritize Iraq over Afghanistan and tell me straight faced that the top priority of the US military is to stop terrorism? Wasn't that the #1 goal after 9/11? When did that change?

[bokuwa]

Like stated by someone else, we have to stand behind the people there and make sure they get what is needed to fight and protect themselves. Than we have to come up with a plan to end the whole thing in a short time frame. Get the troops out and don't do something like this again.
The people wounded in this mess are the important people and should get all they can from the government for as long as it takes to get back something of what they had before.
The dead should be honored with providing for family members they leave behind and not just money but with thoughtful caring for children if there are any. Tax dollars spent like this is the most important way to show soldiers we are there for them.

[Boost]

At this point and time, there should be no choice but to support the war. I understand not supporting the reasons that were stated for starting the war, but it would be catastrophic for Iraq and her people if the U.S. were to just pull out now. The government is far from stable, I seriously question the Iraqi police and military have the ability to provide security against insurgent attacks and sectarian violence, and I think Iraq as a whole would simply crumble and become a lawless, terrorist infested country. The U.S. went in and removed Saddam and his government, so they are now committed to stay until the country can stand on it's own feet again.

[dk]

At this point and time, there should be no choice but to support the war. I understand not supporting the reasons that were stated for starting the war, but it would be catastrophic for Iraq and her people if the U.S. were to just pull out now. The government is far from stable, I seriously question the Iraqi police and military have the ability to provide security against insurgent attacks and sectarian violence, and I think Iraq as a whole would simply crumble and become a lawless, terrorist infested country. The U.S. went in and removed Saddam and his government, so they are now committed to stay until the country can stand on it's own feet again.
My thoughts exactly.

[P_chan]

At this point and time, there should be no choice but to support the war. I understand not supporting the reasons that were stated for starting the war, but it would be catastrophic for Iraq and her people if the U.S. were to just pull out now. The government is far from stable, I seriously question the Iraqi police and military have the ability to provide security against insurgent attacks and sectarian violence, and I think Iraq as a whole would simply crumble and become a lawless, terrorist infested country. The U.S. went in and removed Saddam and his government, so they are now committed to stay until the country can stand on it's own feet again.

It would be horrible if we pulled out now. I just think a lot of people just don't know what is actually going on over there, thanks to the media. I think we are doing a lot of good over there and helping them improve their country. But of course all you hear about in the media is the Iraqi government not meeting benchmarks, and how many people got killed by the last IED. Then again that is how the news makes money. They seldom report on good news, only bad news, thats how they get people to watch and make money.

[eodmatt]

I support the war in Iraq. It needs to be won for the sake of world security. Likewise Afghanistan. I have been to both places and met some very good people there. The news coming out appears all grim, but there are a lot of good things going on alongside the military action which just don't have the same impact as horror stories. It is a fact however, that the good cannot be achieved without military action.

Last year when the Iranian Prime Minister was prancing about making threats to the rest of the world, a BBC response line on their news website carried a large number of posts from people inside Iran, pointing out that the Iranian Prime Minister was not appointed democratically and does not speak for the people. The people who posted those comments did so at great risk to themselves and their families.

The UK government, as well as committing military assets to Iraq and Afghanistan, is also committing £1 billion to Pakistan to assist in securing the Pakistan borders thus denying terrorists access to their lairs. So the US is not alone in expending time, energy and assets in this struggle. It will be a hard struggle, but we must be resolute.

[Oki alumni]

Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran(?)...Viet-Nam...revisited, parts 2, 3 and 4. I seem to recall seeing at least ONE vid where a high ranking Iraqui official stated that HIS country was ready to try to handle THEIR problems, and in a polite manner said that the U.S. should pack up and leave.

Yeah, I'll be called "repeating the verse" for this, and questioned by zealots on both sides of the fence, BUT I DO support the U.S. Forces (and allies) while they're there. I DO NOT "support the war". To do otherwise is, in my opinion, folly. I also question if there is a REAL need to continue to be there...other than the money being made because of this undeclared war.

Are we REALLY still looking for Osama Bin Laden? Why wasn't that EVER "our" FIRST priority? As has often been pointed out, there has been war and strife in the Middle East since ???. Is the world's policeman (U.S.A.) gonna be able to totally solve the conflicts going one? I very seriously doubt it. WHEN we've declared "victory", will things remain stable? Be honest in the answer to yourself. Has the U.S.A. REALLY been made safer because of our actions in the Middle East? Again, be honest with yourself. Repeating myself, I'll STILL say that the one wall with over 50,000 names is enough.

-Oki Alumni:old:

[OkiKing414]

It never fails to amaze me how people view this war, but I will tell you this, unless you've been there, you really don't have a clue. If all you know is what you've read or seen on TV, than most of what you know is fiction fed to you. How can you say you understand the greater good if you have no idea where or what these people have been through. It's funny.... were they really thanking me from the heart or because I was holding a weapon. Don't get me wrong, we just follow orders and do our job, but to see everything first hand....makes a world of difference. The question shouldn't be about your opion on war, but what have you done to support those that have or that are fighting it? Whether you think it right or wrong, don't hold against us for doing our job, instead support us because we deeply need it.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Whether you think it right or wrong, don't hold against us for doing our job, instead support us because we deeply need it.

Hmmm... another "it is ok if you do not support the war, so long as you support the troops" kind of thing?

I have thought about this often, and to be frank, I still do. It really is hard for me to wrap my mind around this because I just keep seeing it as an oxymoron (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94&highlight=oxymoron) at its base. Nothing personal, just a viewpoint where I see two things as inconsistent.

[danielwagner]

Enjoying your right to free speech?
Exercising your right to move freely?
Enjoy worshipping or doubting God?
Enjoy praying for or cursing your leaders?
Enjoy proclaiming a position harmful to the troops in hostile fields afar?

Thank the Veteran.

Do you put the veteran in jeopardy? Do you give comfort and support to the enemy? Did you ever bear arms while in the service of your country? Must be a comfortable existence to sit back and throw rocks at the men "in the arena" who by their deeds provide you with the right and time to demean their contribution.

[Oki alumni]

Enjoying your right to free speech?
Exercising your right to move freely?
Enjoy worshipping or doubting God?
Enjoy praying for or cursing your leaders?
Enjoy proclaiming a position harmful to the troops in hostile fields afar?

Thank the Veteran.

Do you put the veteran in jeopardy? Do you give comfort and support to the enemy? Did you ever bear arms while in the service of your country? Must be a comfortable existence to sit back and throw rocks at the men "in the arena" who by their deeds provide you with the right and time to demean their contribution.

ALL true. But would you PLEASE take notice that there are anti-war veterans also who have ALSO "BTDT". I don't "throw rocks at the "men in the arena" ", but allow me the right to question the continued need for the arena in the first place.

-Oki Alumni:old:

[eodmatt]

Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran(?)...Viet-Nam...revisited, parts 2, 3 and 4. I seem to recall seeing at least ONE vid where a high ranking Iraqui official stated that HIS country was ready to try to handle THEIR problems, and in a polite manner said that the U.S. should pack up and leave.

Yeah, I'll be called "repeating the verse" for this, and questioned by zealots on both sides of the fence, BUT I DO support the U.S. Forces (and allies) while they're there. I DO NOT "support the war". To do otherwise is, in my opinion, folly. I also question if there is a REAL need to continue to be there...other than the money being made because of this undeclared war.

Are we REALLY still looking for Osama Bin Laden? Why wasn't that EVER "our" FIRST priority? As has often been pointed out, there has been war and strife in the Middle East since ???. Is the world's policeman (U.S.A.) gonna be able to totally solve the conflicts going one? I very seriously doubt it. WHEN we've declared "victory", will things remain stable? Be honest in the answer to yourself. Has the U.S.A. REALLY been made safer because of our actions in the Middle East? Again, be honest with yourself. Repeating myself, I'll STILL say that the one wall with over 50,000 names is enough.

-Oki Alumni:old:

I guess that what I was really trying to say in my badly written post of earlier is that Iraq should not be seen in isolation. I think that the days have gone when two sides have a war and when one side pulls its flag down the other has won. The war against terrorism is truly global and it is insidious and a large slice of the focus on it is necessarily in the middle east. We cant afford to lose the war there. And yes, the US is bearing the brunt because they have the resources (and there are undoubtedly some areas of self interest - but hey, true altruism is so rare that those who practice it become famous). So the US is now carrying what used to be called the "white mans burden" albeit now, the USA and most advanced nations are multicultural and so the term is no longer accurate. Notwithstanding, I have no doubt that someone will find that remark offensive, although it is a historical fact. It's also a fact that the burden should be carried by the world and not by a single nation, but the very nature of human nature dictates that this will be very difficult to achieve without a world consensus. Alongside military action therefore, there is a strong need for education, diplomacy, encouragement.. I could go on, but will refrain and just point out that this will take time and patience. Of course we could just nuke em all. No, No sorry that was the whisky talking, I am a pacifist now. Kind of.

[Oki0619]

The problem with the current war is there is no "Government" to force a surrender, we kill one cell another springs up. The only answer unfortunately is Genocide, beyond that we will continue to kill thousands to them killing tens of us. Americans and the rest of the PC world does not have the stomach to do what is required to solve this problem, the muslim extremist on the other hand do.

[okisteve]

I'm not counting my chickens yet, but it is actually looking like the US is in the early stages of a pullout from Iraq, AKA declaring victory and getting the hell out.

General Petraeus seems to have his head screwed on right and is now as commander for the whole region is able to convince the idiots that we desperately need more troops in Afghanistan and the only way we can have them is by drawing down in Iraq. Yay!

[Gecko Slayer]

TP..... islam..... war in iraq.....

are you arabic?

[Old Timer]

:mir31:
1/ Iraqi War is a (was) pissing contest between Bush & Saddam. Nothing more. It was also a start to a theory of spreading “: democracy” through out the Middle East. In my terms a failure. Active duty can give whatever perspective they want. They are there to do a job, not offer commentary. It is funny how commentary is excepted when it supports the administration. EXAMPLE: (Even though ludicrous) “Things are going better. We got the infernal flames of hell down by about 30 to 40 degrees. Its’ still hot, but lower temperatures mean the bodies are not being consumed as fast!! I never did, nor will I give rat’s ass for anything except oil in the Middle East.

2/ Afghanistan and Pakistan have been out of control!> years after 9/11 no results. Nobody except a blind fool lunatic can support the blunders and swashbuckling of the current administration.

3/ GOOD POINT: The military must stay engaged in the latest forms of combat world wide to keep a leg up. Because of our position in the world, it is important that we dominate. Iraq, bad call. Letting lose in Afghanistan/ Pakistan (to include tactical nukes) free for all! The world will see we are not a joke, and future foolish countries (China, Iran, and N. Korea) will take heed and notice.

P.S. – Start draft back in 2012! Make directed military service part of a complete citizenship package. Change the rules on every swinging dick inside the U.S., and dribbling over the borders illegally! :first:

[Crazysix]

:mir31:


P.S. – Start draft back in 2012! Make directed military service part of a complete citizenship package. Change the rules on every swinging dick inside the U.S., and dribbling over the borders illegally! :first:
and dripping cooch:smile4:

[Old Timer]

and dripping cooch:smile4:


Indeed!! They can be given the option to provide "services" to the conscripts!! :first::first::first:

[danielwagner]

Until Divine Intervention, there will always be an Arena. It is a place where men dedicated to liberty and self determination battle men with hardened hearts filled with the blackest of desires, subjugation of their fellow man. It is a place where either liberty is born and triumphs or death and tyranny rule the day. It will continue until liberty is given away or tryanny can no longer be tolerated. The battle will roil like the seas until the earth is no more. Be vigilant.

[Asshat]

Until Divine Intervention, there will always be an Arena. It is a place where men dedicated to liberty and self determination battle men with hardened hearts filled with the blackest of desires, subjugation of their fellow man. It is a place where either liberty is born and triumphs or death and tyranny rule the day. It will continue until liberty is given away or tryanny can no longer be tolerated. The battle will roil like the seas until the earth is no more. Be vigilant.

:thumbup: Yeah, that is what the US Marines were doing in Guatamala in the mid-fifties! Fighting the tyranny imposed by a dully elected leader when he kicked the United Fruit Corporation off of the land they squated on.

I fail to see how fighting for liberty can be possible when the leader of a nation must lie to get the people behind him.

[Oki alumni]

Until Divine Intervention, there will always be an Arena. It is a place where men dedicated to liberty and self determination battle men with hardened hearts filled with the blackest of desires, subjugation of their fellow man. It is a place where either liberty is born and triumphs or death and tyranny rule the day. It will continue until liberty is given away or tryanny can no longer be tolerated. The battle will roil like the seas until the earth is no more. Be vigilant.

And US will KILL you, or nuke you back to th' stone age if you do NOT agree! WE are RIGHT, and GOD is on OUR side!!!:first: Liberty is one thing...pi$$ing contests are quite another. Vigilance indeed...everybody now...do the "Vigilante"...who CARES what the rest of the world thinks!?!?!?! NOBODY hates war MORE than those "boots on the ground" individuals involved in the commission thereof.

-Oki Alumni:old: (Old Viet-Nam era saying: "Fighting for peace is like fuxxing for virginity!") [added apology to DK]

[danielwagner]

And US will KILL you, or nuke you back to th' stone age if you do NOT agree! WE are RIGHT, and GOD is on OUR side!!!:first: Liberty is one thing...pi$$ing contests are quite another. Vigilance indeed...everybody now...do the "Vigilante"...who CARES what the rest of the world thinks!?!?!?! NOBODY hates war MORE than those "boots on the ground" individuals involved in the commission thereof.

-Oki Alumni:old: (Old Viet-Nam era saying: "Fighting for peace is like fuxxing for virginity!") [added apology to DK]

You are correct that men of war hate and detest it. Perhaps you'd have us believe that the world would be one happy neighborhood without firm resolve. Peace at all cost is simply tyranny for the masses. America and her allies are for now the best hope for a liberty loving people. Perhaps it was peaceful in general under Saddam, but for specific individuals (men, women and children) it was a most torturous hell on earth. Only the dead have seen the end of war my friend.

[danielwagner]

:thumbup: Yeah, that is what the US Marines were doing in Guatamala in the mid-fifties! Fighting the tyranny imposed by a dully elected leader when he kicked the United Fruit Corporation off of the land they squated on.

I fail to see how fighting for liberty can be possible when the leader of a nation must lie to get the people behind him.

Semper Fi. Would you consider yourself a foriegn national or a self-loathing American?

[vvloc]

You are correct that men of war hate and detest it. Perhaps you'd have us believe that the world would be one happy neighborhood without firm resolve. Peace at all cost is simply tyranny for the masses. America and her allies are for now the best hope for a liberty loving people. Perhaps it was peaceful in general under Saddam, but for specific individuals (men, women and children) it was a most torturous hell on earth. Only the dead have seen the end of war my friend.

Delusion reigns supreme.

[Oki alumni]

You are correct that men of war hate and detest it. Perhaps you'd have us believe that the world would be one happy neighborhood without firm resolve. Peace at all cost is simply tyranny for the masses. America and her allies are for now the best hope for a liberty loving people. Perhaps it was peaceful in general under Saddam, but for specific individuals (men, women and children) it was a most torturous hell on earth. Only the dead have seen the end of war my friend.

THANK YOU...for being someone who can debate AND disagree AND make his/her point without resorting to the idiocy I've seen displayed not only here, but in many other forums as well. You, my friend, are indeed a breath of fresh air!!!

Your points are well reasoned, and concise (I like that), and call for more than just a "Well...***I*** think that you're wrong, and that you're a pure war-monger".

War of some kind, somewhere or the other will probably NEVER cease...true enough, BUT, does the U.S.A. ALWAYS have to be the world's policeman? I for one, think not. Some countries may actually be better off with a "tin-horn" dictator. Not our business unless we're attacked, directly threatened, or requested to intervene with damn good reason. I was fortunate to live those few short years when the USA wasn't involved in any fighting in a major way. I'd love for my grand-children to be able to enjoy the same thing. Ergo, I CAN and DO support the troops WITHOUT supporting the war.

-Oki Alumni:old: (Who will borrow a Japanese tradition, and bow deeply and humbly to his most worthy "opponent".)

[vvloc]

FIFTY military interventions since WWII - contemplate that Daniel while you delude yourself into thinking the Iraqis are happy to have us as uninvited "guests" in their country.

[DougP]

FIFTY military interventions since WWII - contemplate that Daniel while you delude yourself into thinking the Iraqis are happy to have us as uninvited "guests" in their country.

I'm sure we could expect there to be some more responses in the form of conversational terrorism. This For the Fatherland like patriotism runs more red than white or blue. How does one fight pride with reason anyways?

[vvloc]

You are correct that men of war hate and detest it. Perhaps you'd have us believe that the world would be one happy neighborhood without firm resolve. Peace at all cost is simply tyranny for the masses. America and her allies are for now the best hope for a liberty loving people. Perhaps it was peaceful in general under Saddam, but for specific individuals (men, women and children) it was a most torturous hell on earth. Only the dead have seen the end of war my friend.

http://theradicalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/new-poll-70-of-iraqis-want-the-us-military-out-of-iraq/

These guys are not greeting us with flowers, nor are they participating in the faked poorly staged pull-down of the statue of saddam, and it sure as heck ain't no "cakewalk."

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

The first and (for now) most important reason that commodity prices will continue rising: We live in a dying, world-wide empire of fiat currency. This empire is owned by private banks with monopoly charters that are granted by, and operated in league with, coercive governments. The empire itself is sociopathic to the core; it is gimlet-eyed, cunning, and controls most of the major outlets for news and entertainment; it also controls respected universities and influential think tanks and the most powerful organizations among the power elite.

For a century and more, this empire has controlled the money supply of nations and has financed wars and other destructive government make-work projects, growing fat on the profits while millions suffered and died. The empire is highly skilled at promoting such disasters, which are said to be "compassionate" or "necessary" (often to Save Us From an Enemy or some other danger). Regarding war in particular, highly-decorated General Smedley Butler (two Congressional Medals of Honor) put it plainly in the title of his 1935 book: War Is A Racket. Banks and their friends in other industries (including government, the one industry that imposes itself on customers at gunpoint) make the profits; soldiers, their families and friends, and ordinary civilians everywhere pay the price, both financially and in terms of death, maiming, and other horror.

Despite its power, the fiat-currency empire is based on a self-serving lie, and thus the truth has been undermining the empire's foundations since inception. That truth is now poised to bring the whole, rotting, corrupt edifice down in a collapse of epic proportions that will devastate entire societies and echo through time, eventually becoming myth and legend.

The character of the future that emerges from this event will depend on how we respond to the disaster now in progress. In particular, our responses will determine whether our children and their descendents live in a civil society of love and freedom, or in a technologically-enabled police state powerful enough to resist any attempt at overthrow or reform.

Love and freedom, then – or cruelty and tyranny. Make no mistake: that is the choice we face, and not only for ourselves but for many, many millions yet unborn.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/82/allport/allport1.html

[vvloc]

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[danielwagner]

http://theradicalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/new-poll-70-of-iraqis-want-the-us-military-out-of-iraq/

These guys are not greeting us with flowers, nor are they participating in the faked poorly staged pull-down of the statue of saddam, and it sure as heck ain't no "cakewalk."



Is your statement that of someone with first person knowledge or simply stated by faith in the reporting of others?

How disappointing to be surrounded by millions of people and not one offers a flower. Perhaps somewhat reminiscent of Abraham asking the Lord to spare the many for the sake of a righteous few.

But you are correct in that it "ain't no cake walk."

[Asshat]

Semper Fi. Would you consider yourself a foriegn national or a self-loathing American?

Neither. I consider myself an American Patriot. As such, I will never stand still while my elected officials, the servants of we the people, LIE, and send the middle and lower class children to fight wars for the benefits of the wealthy.

I suggest taking some time off from drinking the koolaide and doing some research on the past "Arenas of Freedom" for a broader view on they tyranny America and her allies have brought to the world.

At least inform yourself before you start spouting slogans used on the ignorant to give father's warm-fuzzys as their children are returned in body bags.

[Old Timer]

First off we have two distinct wars...... hardly singular. :crying:

[Oki0619]

[url]
These guys are not greeting us with flowers, nor are they participating in the faked poorly staged pull-down of the statue of saddam, and it sure as heck ain't no "cakewalk."

So you were there when they pulled the statue down??? What unit were you with? If not STFU about it, I was there when we uncovered mass graves with thousands of dead bodies that Saddam had killed in Villages across Southern Iraq. We went through the torture chambers that were inches deep with human sludge. I can assure you at the time the local Iraqis were happy to see us.

Now they are growing tired of our presence and feel that if we were not there the terrorists would go away. Unlikey to happen as they have a strong foothold and thousands of poor uneducated people to recruit from, but some country is building schools over there to educate them, and trying to establish a working government, and for what were not getting any cheap oil???
Is it time to get out probably but Obama's pipe dream will not work, FFS were still in Japan and Germany. Although the rebuilding here and there took only 10 years or so but were still here.

[Asshat]

First off we have two distinct wars...... hardly singular. :crying:

Negative ghost rider! We have one, refered to by certain Generals as "the long war" or by we politically correct Government stoolies as "The Global War on Terrorism."

But since one arena was populated with known Al Quida (paid for by the US as we "fought" the USSR in the 80's) and the other was populated with a bad man that daddy didn't remove, we tend to view them as separate wars.

Perhaps if we actually war with Iran overtly and bring in that third theater, we could legitimately call this WWIII!

[Asshat]

So you were there when they pulled the statue down??? What unit were you with? If not STFU about it, I was there when we uncovered mass graves with thousands of dead bodies that Saddam had killed in Villages across Southern Iraq. We went through the torture chambers that were inches deep with human sludge. I can assure you at the time the local Iraqis were happy to see us.

And the whole time Saddam was doing this, the US and the UN were completely aware of it. However, keeping a relationship with Turkey was more important than a few Kurds.

Now they are growing tired of our presence and feel that if we were not there the terrorists would go away. Unlikey to happen as they have a strong foothold and thousands of poor uneducated people to recruit from, but some country is building schools over there to educate them, and trying to establish a working government, and for what were not getting any cheap oil???

There were no terrorists there however prior to Gulf War II. Iran was not supplying anyone with weapons, Al Q had no base to work from that was legitimized by Iraq. No, the oil prices continue to climb because of some emerging countries' demand. But a few American contractors are doing quite well in Iraq eh? Some of them got their start in Nam by the way under the Johnson administration. (Halliburton eg.)

[danielwagner]

THANK YOU...for being someone who can debate AND disagree AND make his/her point without resorting to the idiocy I've seen displayed not only here, but in many other forums as well. You, my friend, are indeed a breath of fresh air!!!

Your points are well reasoned, and concise (I like that), and call for more than just a "Well...***I*** think that you're wrong, and that you're a pure war-monger".

War of some kind, somewhere or the other will probably NEVER cease...true enough, BUT, does the U.S.A. ALWAYS have to be the world's policeman? I for one, think not. Some countries may actually be better off with a "tin-horn" dictator. Not our business unless we're attacked, directly threatened, or requested to intervene with damn good reason. I was fortunate to live those few short years when the USA wasn't involved in any fighting in a major way. I'd love for my grand-children to be able to enjoy the same thing. Ergo, I CAN and DO support the troops WITHOUT supporting the war.

-Oki Alumni:old: (Who will borrow a Japanese tradition, and bow deeply and humbly to his most worthy "opponent".)

War is detestable. A grinder that knows no loyalty save the love of brothers-in-arms. Yet…it is still an essential tool. It may define national boundaries or political ideologies, it may redress long held grievances or perhaps, sadly, darker goals. I personally know of no one who loves war yet the world seems unable to do without it.

Your sharing of honest, unguarded thoughts and humor (thanks for the laugh) is both appreciated and respected. We may disagree on which road is necessary to travel but I suspect that we could agree on the final destination...

[danielwagner]

Neither. I consider myself an American Patriot. As such, I will never stand still while my elected officials, the servants of we the people, LIE, and send the middle and lower class children to fight wars for the benefits of the wealthy.

I suggest taking some time off from drinking the koolaide and doing some research on the past "Arenas of Freedom" for a broader view on they tyranny America and her allies have brought to the world.

At least inform yourself before you start spouting slogans used on the ignorant to give father's warm-fuzzys as their children are returned in body bags.

Just curious...have you ever been wrong?

[Asshat]

Just curious...have you ever been wrong?

LOL, yes, many times. Please tell me where I have erred in this discussion. Have you looked up the United Fruit Corporation yet?

Or is it your intent to keep avoiding the subject?

It's okay. America does need followers who will unflinchingly follow orders with no thought to "lawful orders."

[Oki0619]

I agree with you ass that people are making money, and did we know about the genocide yes. But it does not change the fact that these people were happy to see us. Iran has been supplying terrorists with weapons for several decades now does Hezbollah ring a bell.

[Asshat]

I agree with you ass that people are making money, and did we know about the genocide yes. But it does not change the fact that these people were happy to see us. Iran has been supplying terrorists with weapons for several decades now does Hezbollah ring a bell.

Which people were happy to see us? The Sunni who are a minority in Arabia? lol. I think NOT. However, we have created yet another Shia-led country. When the US leaves, it will leave another country who will embrace Sharia. And those Sunni's will be on the receiving end of the torture chambers.

As far as Hezbollah, you start down a slippery path that has origins far older than Iraq and Sadam Hussein.

I have proposed on other boards that this is simply a way in which to safely engage Iraq and Al Quida far from US borders. Nothing I have seen yet shows me I am in error.

If that is true, a great many Americans would find themselves question the motives of their government...as I do.

[okisteve]

I agree with you ass that people are making money, and did we know about the genocide yes. But it does not change the fact that these people were happy to see us. Iran has been supplying terrorists with weapons for several decades now does Hezbollah ring a bell.

Using a proxy to further a country's foreign political and territorial aims is not restricted to Iran. Remember the Contras in Nicaragua, for example? Even if you are 19 and not 6 you should have heard that tale (from Ollie North).

[Asshat]

Using a proxy to further a country's foreign political and territorial aims is not restricted to Iran. Remember the Contras in Nicaragua, for example? Even if you are 19 and not 6 you should have heard that tale (from Ollie North).

No, those were "Freedom Fighters" who also welcomed us with flowers and open arms.

[vvloc]

So you were there when they pulled the statue down??? What unit were you with? If not STFU about it, I was there when we uncovered mass graves with thousands of dead bodies that Saddam had killed in Villages across Southern Iraq. We went through the torture chambers that were inches deep with human sludge. I can assure you at the time the local Iraqis were happy to see us.

Now they are growing tired of our presence and feel that if we were not there the terrorists would go away. Unlikey to happen as they have a strong foothold and thousands of poor uneducated people to recruit from, but some country is building schools over there to educate them, and trying to establish a working government, and for what were not getting any cheap oil???
Is it time to get out probably but Obama's pipe dream will not work, FFS were still in Japan and Germany. Although the rebuilding here and there took only 10 years or so but were still here.

As your siggy claims that you consider yourself "JU's resident ass," with which, far be it for me to disagree, and as you have been shown yourself to play fast and sloppy with regards to facts; I'll simply leave you with this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

with which you will likely hotly disagree.

AND if you consider Chalabi to be our way of establishing a working government, I suggest you do some reading about the Shah of Iran, a price we are still paying for nearly 35 years later.

Sheeesh, some of the ignorance espressed by some who feel that donning a pair of cammies gives them a global perspective is beyond astounding!

[Oki0619]

If you want to discuss history Okisteve maybe we should talk about how we supplied Iraq with weapons when they were at war with Iran, or the Afghans with weapons and training to combat Russia, or any other regime that has turned against us after we have helped them. Why were you not protesting that? Where were you then? What did you do to further the investigation into how a LtCol did all of that? LtCols dont have that kind of power. Ass yes this is a way to engage them from our borders, to keep them busy. As long as it keeps them from blowing up malls in America I am happy to see it go on. The only real answer is what was started in the middle ages.

[okisteve]

Ah, Ahmad... Now where have I heard that name recently????

http://aramroston.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/30/1625583-ahmad-chalabi-in-iran-criticizing-us-iraq-agreement-plans

[Oki0619]

As your siggy claims that you consider yourself "JU's resident ass," with which, far be it for me to disagree, and as you have been shown yourself to play fast and sloppy with regards to facts; I'll simply leave you with this:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm

with which you will likely hotly disagree.

AND if you consider Chalabi to be our way of establishing a working government, I suggest you do some reading about the Shah of Iran, a price we are still paying for nearly 35 years later.

Sheeesh, some of the ignorance espressed by some who feel that donning a pair of cammies gives them a global perspective is beyond astounding!


I am speaking of the original statue downing not the one that you saw on your pork filled a$$ on CNN.

[vvloc]

Iran has been supplying terrorists with weapons for several decades now does Hezbollah ring a bell.

Does Saudi Arabia ring any bells within the echoes located in the empty chamber on which you place your hat?

How many of the highjackers were Hezbollah; How many Saudi?

Saudi's supply weapons to terrorists? Heck no, they're our designated buddies in that part of the world - they would NEVER do such a thing, after all they need us to buy their oil, more than we need them.

Ludikris may be the name of a rap group, but I think it is a mis-spelling of the process by which you attempt to construct your logic.

[Asshat]

If you want to discuss history Okisteve maybe we should talk about how we supplied Iraq with weapons when they were at war with Iran, or the Afghans with weapons and training to combat Russia, or any other regime that has turned against us after we have helped them. Why were you not protesting that? Where were you then? What did you do to further the investigation into how a LtCol did all of that? LtCols dont have that kind of power. Ass yes this is a way to engage them from our borders, to keep them busy. As long as it keeps them from blowing up malls in America I am happy to see it go on. The only real answer is what was started in the middle ages.

The Contra war was not about Ollie North. He was only the fall guy for the arms deal. The war itself was perped by the Rayguns and the CIA long before Ollie got his fingers burned.

In what way did Iraq and Afghanistan "turn" on the USA?

[danielwagner]

Which people were happy to see us? The Sunni who are a minority in Arabia? lol. I think NOT. However, we have created yet another Shia-led country. When the US leaves, it will leave another country who will embrace Sharia. And those Sunni's will be on the receiving end of the torture chambers.

As far as Hezbollah, you start down a slippery path that has origins far older than Iraq and Sadam Hussein.

I have proposed on other boards that this is simply a way in which to safely engage Iraq and Al Quida far from US borders. Nothing I have seen yet shows me I am in error.

If that is true, a great many Americans would find themselves question the motives of their government...as I do.

You have been there!

[okisteve]

If you want to discuss history Okisteve maybe we should talk about how we supplied Iraq with weapons when they were at war with Iran, or the Afghans with weapons and training to combat Russia, or any other regime that has turned against us after we have helped them. Why were you not protesting that? Where were you then? What did you do to further the investigation into how a LtCol did all of that? LtCols dont have that kind of power.

I did my share of protesting. What Asshat and I are saying here is that we need to keep our noses out of other countries' garbage.

[vvloc]

If you want to discuss history Okisteve maybe we should talk about how we supplied Iraq with weapons when they were at war with Iran, or the Afghans with weapons and training to combat Russia, or any other regime that has turned against us after we have helped them..

Your ignorant contention regarding "after we have helped them" is belied by facts.

Did we help the Iranians by installing the Shah? Did we sell weapons only to Iraq in their war with Iran?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing - no knowledge is catastrophically tragic.

[Oki0619]

the tangent you are taking is well known yes there are terrorists from all Nations we had some home Grown ones Timothy McVeigh (sp). I will not argue that the Saudis support terrorism aimed at us while they line their pockets with our money. The only responsible thing to do is to stay there for the long haul, was it a mistake to go? I dont know because I am not as well versed as the rest of you forum whores. The only thing to do for the good of the future of the planet is genocide of them. That way you can go back to protesting the cutting down of trees vice the killing of the masses.

[vvloc]

I am speaking of the original statue downing not the one that you saw on your pork filled a$$ on CNN.

And what "original" statue downing was that, pray tell?

Was my pork filled a$$ on CNN? Did you see it? Did you like it? How could you tell it was pork? I think I ate sushi that day.

[Asshat]

You have been there!

So Dannyboy, have you turned this into a personal battle?

Does the PFC with the shrappnel in his leg know more about US Foreign policy than the well-informed voter?

It appears from your posts, you have forgotten just who it is you represent, and who "you" are working for.

If you are unable to muster the intellect to post more than superficial slogans suitable for boot camp, I suggest you refrain from posting here. Posters with nothing to say don't last very long here.

[Oki0619]

The one that was in An Nasirayah, the one I witnessed the end of March

And regardless of what our Governments intentions are, we in Uniform are doing good things for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan if you disagree with that I would like to see you face to face to set you straight.

[vvloc]

is genocide of them.

I may not always be right, but you are always wrong

It is best to know the inner "thoughts" of your adversaries, ALWAYS.

He is sometimes not right, but those who disagree with him are ALWAYS wrong.

[Asshat]

the tangent you are taking is well known yes there are terrorists from all Nations we had some home Grown ones Timothy McVeigh (sp). I will not argue that the Saudis support terrorism aimed at us while they line their pockets with our money. The only responsible thing to do is to stay there for the long haul, was it a mistake to go? I dont know because I am not as well versed as the rest of you forum whores. The only thing to do for the good of the future of the planet is genocide of them. That way you can go back to protesting the cutting down of trees vice the killing of the masses.

Oh that post was just frikken wrong. What do cutting down trees have to do with anything? Sheesh. I thought you had lived here long enough to move past that "little box" American mentality where if you protest the war, you must be:

Democrat
Environmentally Conscious
Vegetarian
Etc.

[Asshat]

The one that was in An Nasirayah, the one I witnessed the end of March

And regardless of what our Governments intentions are, we in Uniform are doing good things for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan if you disagree with that I would like to see you face to face to set you straight.

Some of us no longer wear the uniform having been honorably discharged from our duties.

Some of us disagree with the US wasting it's resources to help Iraq and Afghanistan. Deal with it. That's why it's called a democracy.

That "face to face" comment is pretty lame. It is exactly the reason we HAVE wars. (Wars are the result of failed diplomacy)

[vvloc]

The one that was in An Nasirayah, the one I witnessed the end of March

And regardless of what our Governments intentions are, we in Uniform are doing good things for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan if you disagree with that I would like to see you face to face to set you straight.

Oh, I think I get it now, The statue you say you witnessed in An Nasirayah, the 4th largest city in Iraq 225 miles southeast of Baghdad is the original statue, and the statue in Baghdad is just a copy.

[Oki0619]

So basically you are saying you dont support those in uniform on the ground. Thanks. I love all of you former E-3s who get out and go native and think you have your finger on the US political pulse.

[Oki0619]

Oh, I think I get it now, The statue you say you witnessed in An Nasirayah, the 4th largest city in Iraq 225 miles southeast of Baghdad is the original statue, and the statue in Baghdad is just a copy.

Yes now your on it the original statue downing, the copy of the larger statue in Baghdad, the statue that was originally torn down and not a staged political move. The one that Marines and the local people from Nasiriyah pulled down with a tractor and LAV. Maybe I should reword it to say the first statue downing, but that could be wrong as well, Ok lets call it the statue downing of March 31st how is that. Does that make you feel all better inside.

[TheNoNamedOne]

The one that was in An Nasirayah, the one I witnessed the end of March

And regardless of what our Governments intentions are, we in Uniform are doing good things for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan if you disagree with that I would like to see you face to face to set you straight.

21. Do not under any circumstances threaten anyone with violence. This also applies to challenging people to fights or making inferences to where the two of you could meet to "settle things," or telling someone they know where they can "find" them. JU is not a platform for arranging duels or the settling of grievances in a violent or threatening way. Making a threat and then downplaying it with "Just kidding (jk)" also will not be tolerated. Threatening someone, or inferring a threat, could result in an instant ban.

[vvloc]

the local people from Nasiriyah pulled down with a tractor and LAV. Maybe I should reword.

Original? Copy? "Local people pulled from Nasiruyah pilled down with a tractor and LAV.

Yes, I'd say you have a heck of a lot of rewording to do!!!

[Asshat]

So basically you are saying you dont support those in uniform on the ground. Thanks. I love all of you former E-3s who get out and go native and think you have your finger on the US political pulse.

Can you define "support those in uniform please?" I absolutely do NOT support the senseless death of Americans for Iraq and Afghanistan, and I certainly do NOT support a president who had to lie to me to get me to agree to invade Iraq in the first place.

I want all Americans in or out of uniform to come back now. I want all dead Americans to come back to life. I want all injured Americans to be whole again. Is that not supporting you?

By the way, I was an E3 in 1978. Going "native" is a derogatory term that has no meaning for me, a voting US citizen. And if "your" finger is on the ballot box for the next puppet that Right Wing Big Buisness is sending up, remember that the current guy has done more FOR the Democrats than the Democrats themselves have done.

[DougP]

You have been there!

This counter argument is one that holds no water nor relevance when it comes to events in history or world affairs. To assert that one must be there to have any knowledge of an event would negate many of the things we have learned throughout life.

Take for example any knowledge you may have of the Revolutionary War or the history of the Roman empire. If we were to apply your argument of "were you there" we would then assume that you nor anyone else alive today couldn't possibly have an understanding of what happened. It would imply that we are to throw out all written knowledge of firsthand accounts and historical writings of past events because we were not there in that place and time to validate such claims. What about those of a religious persuasion, like Christianity for example? Many of them would say that they are quite familiar with the story of the Virgin Mary and the birth of Jesus. Yet according to your logic they could not possible know of such events because they were not there. They are unable to personally validate their own beliefs because they were not there. Essentially according to this logic we are only able to know and understand what we experience first hand. That in a sense would render us rather ignorant would it not?

Yes it may be safe to assume that not every little aspect and detail of what occurs on the ground gets represented in full or in truth. However we are not talking about minor details as we are talking about the big picture and comparing and critiquing it in accordance with our knowledge of history.

[Oki0619]

it was not a threat, it was an invitation to see some pictures of the schools, hospitals, day cares, etc that we have built that dont make there way on to cnn.

[TheNoNamedOne]

it was not a threat, it was an invitation to see some pictures of the schools, hospitals, day cares, etc that we have built that dont make there way on to cnn.

Then you need to be much more clear on things so that they cannot be viewed as a threat. That language in heated debate does not come off as sitting down over tea and looking at a photo album you made at a handicraft center with the wives club.

[vvloc]

So basically you are saying you dont support those in uniform on the ground. Thanks. I love all of you former E-3s who get out and go native and think you have your finger on the US political pulse.

"VVLOC my own personal troll"

Yeah, you better believe it - in case you'd not noticed it before I have a VERY low tolerance level for people who propagate lies and disinformation to suit their narrow-minded self-interest.

[Oki alumni]

Yes now your on it the original statue downing, the copy of the larger statue in Baghdad, the statue that was originally torn down and not a staged political move. The one that Marines and the local people from Nasiriyah pulled down with a tractor and LAV. Maybe I should reword it to say the first statue downing, but that could be wrong as well, Ok lets call it the statue downing of March 31st how is that. Does that make you feel all better inside.

You mis-spelled "your"....DOHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Its funny and a bit sad when people learn that they've been terribly used and mis-used, and THEN try to justify the actions of the ones who've perpetrated the actions. What's WORSE and non-defensable, it to give aid to those who are the "abusers". Are you REALLY gonna drink that kool-aid, man?

-Oki Alumni:old:

[Asshat]

You mis-spelled "your"....DOHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Its funny and a bit sad when people learn that they've been terribly used and mis-used, and THEN try to justify the actions of the ones who've perpetrated the actions. What's WORSE and non-defensable, it to give aid to those who are the "abusers". Are you REALLY gonna drink that kool-aid, man?

-Oki Alumni:old:

Yep. Like at the ol card table, knowing your luck has just GOT to change.

It's also sad that those in uniform think they have patriotism locked up. That they are the only ones who count in any matter concerning politics. As if they have forgotten they work for the elected person who can be easily removed by the tax-paying voters.

Or that the Republicans are the only one's supporting them. That is the most pathetic one of all. Them's the ones getting them killed, separating them from their families, gutting the VA budget for a war....voting AGAINST veteran's benefits.

[Old Timer]

The real deal is quite different. I enjoyed my deployed periods to combat areas. Of course, I was scared of the unknown, but looked forward to the adventure. I also knew the people yelling, “Support the troops”, were hiding in plain view. They did so out of political need, and nothing more. We went through this same foolishness with Vietnam, to include “Law & Order", and Nixon’s and Agnew’s flagged lapels. Nothin new!! And this type of political posturing goes on with Pubs and Dims, both guilty. I don’t see anything to fight about with this. Frankly, troops have always been “expendable”. No doubt I was up for grabs!! <3

[Asshat]

The real deal is quite different. I enjoyed my deployed periods to combat areas. Of course, I was scared of the unknown, but looked forward to the adventure. I also knew the people yelling, “Support the troops”, were hiding in plain view. They did so out of political need, and nothing more. We went through this same foolishness with Vietnam, to include “Law & Order", and Nixon’s and Agnew’s flagged lapels. Nothin new!! And this type of political posturing goes on with Pubs and Dims, both guilty. I don’t see anything to fight about with this. Frankly, troops have always been “expendable”. No doubt I was up for grabs!! <3

Great post and salient point. Oh yeah, 30 percent of America supports the war and the idiot behind it, yet 110 percent "support the troops."

Pathetic. I note the same old oorah "we support you" commercials are running on AFN. In reality, the rest of America is tired of hearing about the war and just wants it to end. Of greater importance is the cost of a gallon of gas, or a cheeseburger.

signed- Fellow Cannon Fodder

[DougP]

What is "supporting the troops" anyways? I've given that a lot of thought over the last year or so after getting out. Before it just seemed like it was something you pledged verbally or you were behind the war. I remember thinking that "not supporting the troops" meant you were for terrorism or against anyone in uniform. I was wrong on all accounts. Supporting the troops does not mean sending them off to war on a whim or on a lie. It does not mean condemning their lives for what could be a 100 year war that has been the result of our failed international policy. Supporting the troops has nothing to do with slogans, pins and bumper stickers nor is it plain old blind allegiance. Its a tired old phrase that has lost any sort of meaning to me. Yes I support freedom, The Constitution, the original ideals of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. However I do not support the exploitation of good men and women.

I am no longer in support of the idea that this philosophy must be forcibly campaigned through out the globe at the end of a rifle in order to protect our country. Home is where you make your stand not miles a way from it. Even if I had all the correct intelligence that pointed to some others' plot to invade my house I would rather engage them on my property than take the fight to the outskirts of the neighborhood. Let them come to me if they dare! There is no reason why we should have to create an entirely new department of government to defend our homeland(Homeland Security) That is what the Department of Defense is for!!!! If it isn't then we should go back to calling it what it was, The Department of War.

For my mates in uniform you have my support in the way of wishing you the best. I hope you all stay safe and get home soon. I hope this terrible war ends ASAP and wish that no more would have to die for such a felonious cause. And I support you in the way that I will welcome you back home and even buy the first round!

[vvloc]

VERY well stated, Doug.

[js9234]

I support Bush, the War and the Troops. I think he's done a great job and the troops are doing a lot of good over there but no one ever talks about it. Certain types of people would rather bad mouth everyone who has anything to do with th war and blame it all on Bush even if they supported it at first. He did a great job IMO after 911.

[Asshat]

LMAO!!! Yeah, GREAT JOB! (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2004/05/b64326.html)

1. Failing to build a real international coalition prior to the Iraq invasion, forcing the US to shoulder the full cost and consequences of the war.

2. Approving the demobilization of the Iraqi Army in May, 2003

3. Not equipping troops in Iraq with adequate body armor or armored HUMVEES.

4. Ignoring the advice Gen. Eric Shinseki regarding the need for more troops in Iraq

5. Ignoring plans drawn up by the Army War College and other war-planning agencies, which predicted most of the worst security and infrastructure problems America faced in the early days of the Iraq occupation.

6. Making a case for war which ignored intelligence that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

7. Deriding "nation-building" during the 2000 debates, then engaging American troops in one of the most explicit instances of nation building in American history.

8. Predicting along with others in his administration that US troops would be greeted as liberators in Iraq.

9. Predicting Iraq would pay for its own reconstruction.

10. Wildly underestimating the cost of the war.

11. Trusting Ahmed Chalabi, who has dismissed faulty intelligence he provided the President as necessary for getting the Americans to topple Saddam.

12. Disbanding the Sunni Baathist managers responsible for Iraq's water, electricity, sewer system and all the other critical parts of that country's infrastructure.

13. Failing to give UN weapons inspectors enough time to certify if weapons existed in Iraq.

14. Including discredited intelligence concerning Nigerian Yellow Cake in his 2003 State of the Union.

15. Announcing that "major combat operations in Iraq have ended" aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln on May 1, 2003, below a "Mission Accomplished" banner

16. Awarding a multi-billion dollar contract to Halliburton in Iraq, which then repeatedly overcharged the government and served troops dirty food.

17. Refusing to cede any control of Post-invasion Iraq to the international community, meaning reconstruction has received limited aid from European allies or the U.N.

18. Failing to convince NATO allies why invading Iraq was important.

19. Having no real plan for the occupation of Iraq.

20. Limiting bidding on Iraq construction projects to "coalition partners," unnecessarily alienating important allies France, Germany and Russia.

21. Diverting $700 million into Iraq invasion planning without informing Congress.

22. Shutting down an Iraqi newspaper for "inciting violence" – the move, which led in short order to street fighting in Fallujah, incited more violence than the newspaper ever had.

23. Telling Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan about plans to go to war with Iraq before Secretary of State Colin Powell.

24. Allowing several members of the Bin Laden family to leave the country just days after 9/11, some of them without being questioned by the FBI.

25. Focusing on missile defense at the expense of counterterrorism prior to 9/11.

26. Thinking al Qaeda could not attack without state sponsors, and ignoring evidence of a growing threat unassociated with "rogue states" like Iraq or North Korea.

27. Threatening to veto the Homeland Security department – The President now concedes such a department "provides the ability for our agencies to coordinate better and to work together better than it was before."

28. Opposing the creation of the September 11th commission, which the President now expects "to contain important recommendations for preventing future attacks."

29. Denying documents to the 9/11 commission, only relenting after the commissioners threatened a subpoena.

30. Failing to pay more attention to an August 6, 2001 PDB entitled "Bin laden Determined to Attack in U.S."

31. Repeatedly ignoring warnings of terrorists planning to use aircraft before 9/11.

32. Appointing the ultra-secretive Henry Kissinger to head the 9/11 commission – Kissinger stepped down weeks later due to conflicts of interest.

33. Asking for testimony before the 9/11 commission be limited to one hour, a position from which the president later backtracked.

34. Not allowing national Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice to testify before the 9/11 commission – Bush changed his mind as pressure mounted.

35. Cutting an FBI request for counterterrorism funds by two-thirds after 9/11.

36. Telling Americans there was a link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.

37. Failing to adequately secure the nation's nuclear weapons labs.

38. Not feeling a sense of urgency about terrorism or al Qaeda before 9/11.

39. Reducing resources and troop levels in Afghanistan and out before it was fully secure.

40. Not providing security in Afghanistan outside of Kabul, leaving nearly 80% of the Afghan population unprotected in areas controlled by Feudal warlords and local militias.

41. Committing inadequate resources for the reconstruction of Afghanistan.

42. Counting too heavily on locally trained troops to fill the void in Afghanistan once U.S. forces were relocated to Iraq.

43. Not committing US ground troops to the capture of Osama Bin Laden, when he was cornered in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan in November, 2001.

44. Allowing opium production to resume on a massive scale after the ouster of the Taliban.

45. Opposing an independent inquiry into the intelligence failures surrounding WMD

46. Saying: "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories."

47. Trusting intelligence gathered by Vice President Cheney's and Secretary Rumsfeld's "Office of Special Plans."

48. Spending $6.5 billion on nuclear weapons this year to develop new nuclear weapons this year – 50% more in real dollars than the average during the cold war – while shortchanging the troops on body armor.

49. Ignoring the importance of the Middle East peace process, which has deteriorated with little oversight or strategy evident in the region.

50. Siding with China in February, 2004 against a democratic referenda proposed by Taiwan, a notable shift from an earlier pledge to stand with "oppressed peoples until the day of their freedom finally arrives."

51. Undermining the War on Terrorism by preemptively invading Iraq.

52. Failing to develop a specific plan for dealing with North Korea.

53. Abandoning the United States' traditional role as an evenhanded negotiator in the Middle East peace process.

54. Signing a report endorsing outsourcing with thousands of American workers having their jobs shipped overseas.

55. Instituting steel tariffs deemed illegal by the World Trade Organization –

(The list goes on at the link, though I doubt many will take the trouble)

[Oki alumni]

I support Bush, the War and the Troops. I think he's done a great job and the troops are doing a lot of good over there but no one ever talks about it. Certain types of people would rather bad mouth everyone who has anything to do with th war and blame it all on Bush even if they supported it at first. He did a great job IMO after 911.

For some reason, you reminded me of the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. We were VERY proud of actions taken after THAT happened(!?!?!?!?!?)...also! If you're satisfied with hearing half the news and basing your judgements on that...well, I can't and won't even try to enlighten you. The "embedded journalists" will tell ya that you're absolutely correct!

"Fool me once, shame on...uhhhh...fool me...uhhhh...well...you can't .... uhhh"...paraphrased from GWB's own lips, but "close enough for Government work", eh?

-Oki Alumni:old:

[vvloc]

I support Bush, the War and the Troops. I think he's done a great job and the troops are doing a lot of good over there but no one ever talks about it. Certain types of people would rather bad mouth everyone who has anything to do with th war and blame it all on Bush even if they supported it at first. He did a great job IMO after 911.

IMO is the key word here folks - some have no sense of shame whatsoever.

[js9234]

For some reason, you reminded me of the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. We were VERY proud of actions taken after THAT happened(!?!?!?!?!?)...also! If you're satisfied with hearing half the news and basing your judgements on that...well, I can't and won't even try to enlighten you. The "embedded journalists" will tell ya that you're absolutely correct!

"Fool me once, shame on...uhhhh...fool me...uhhhh...well...you can't .... uhhh"...paraphrased from GWB's own lips, but "close enough for Government work", eh?

-Oki Alumni:old:
I based my opinion on CNN's biased news reports, Fox news reports, other smaller news agencies online and Bush's words himself(on TV). I'm not telling anyone what to believe, I just stated my opinion and answered the question. He hasn't done a perfect job but everyone has to blame someone I guess.

[js9234]

IMO is the key word here folks - some have no sense of shame whatsoever.
Exactly as I stated, my opinion. Not telling anyone what to think, just stated my opinion. Nothing to be ashamed of IMO. Oh, am I aloud to say that oh great one?

[Asshat]

I based my opinion on CNN's biased news reports, Fox news reports, other smaller news agencies online and Bush's words himself(on TV). I'm not telling anyone what to believe, I just stated my opinion and answered the question. He hasn't done a perfect job but everyone has to blame someone I guess.

Fair enough. Hey, do you find Fox news to be biased?

[vvloc]

GREAT GREAT post AH - some prefer to bury their heads in Race, Offroad, Playboy, Guns, Hunting, Outdoor and Fitness Magazines, than smell the lies and deceptions that 2 out of every 3 americans have come to agree on.

[js9234]

Fair enough. Hey, do you find Fox news to be biased?
Sometimes I think they try to overcompensate for CNN's biased views. So, yes, I do but not as much as CNN. Either way I would rather have a news station that did not lean either way.

[vvloc]

Oh, am I aloud to say that oh great one?

Yes, you're "aloud." - see what happens when you don't read much.

"Aloud" - LMFAOROTF

[DougP]

GREAT GREAT post AH - some prefer to bury their heads in Race, Offroad, Playboy, Guns, Hunting, Outdoor and Fitness Magazines, than smell the lies and deceptions that 2 out of every 3 americans have come to agree on.

You are aware that many of those magazines require one to actually read... The pretty pictures may be, at times, hard to find. Even in Playboy:w00t:

[P_chan]

As long as it keeps them from blowing up malls in America I am happy to see it go on.

This type of thinking will be our downfall.

[js9234]

GREAT GREAT post AH - some prefer to bury their heads in Race, Offroad, Playboy, Guns, Hunting, Outdoor and Fitness Magazines, than smell the lies and deceptions that 2 out of every 3 americans have come to agree on.

Oh here we go with you trying to get personal again. I don't see anything wrong with the magazines I read and if you do, big deal. Get over it. Do you want me to add you as a friend on myspace so you can search some more and find something else smart guy? You're a pretty miserable old man aren't you? Always coming on here to try and get a rise out of someone. It worked with Maggie and the new girl. It won't work with me because I already know how you are and that you like to try and point things out personally that you don't like. Doesnn't bother me, I would bet a lot of people on here read some of the same stuff I do. I'm not ashamed of anything.

[Asshat]

Sometimes I think they try to overcompensate for CNN's biased views. So, yes, I do but not as much as CNN. Either way I would rather have a news station that did not lean either way.

I saw about the same degree of slant...wait, who is Wolf Blitzer with? Anyway, he'd be talking and the background was always a looped video of some burning thing in Iraq- the more smoke the better- from many weeks or months before.

Yet Fox is just the opposite, chosing to out-shout their guests, and insinuations that they have the "true meaning" of patriotism going on.

It's all entertainment, and idiots like you and I get to watch them as entertainment with the slight possibility we might get some news.

"Breaking News! Semi truck stalls at bridge in Nowhereville, USA!"

It's real hard to get nothing but news. It's even harder to dig deep enough to find out "why" things happen.

[js9234]

I saw about the same degree of slant...wait, who is Wolf Blitzer with? Anyway, he'd be talking and the background was always a looped video of some burning thing in Iraq- the more smoke the better- from many weeks or months before.

Yet Fox is just the opposite, chosing to out-shout their guests, and insinuations that they have the "true meaning" of patriotism going on.

It's all entertainment, and idiots like you and I get to watch them as entertainment with the slight possibility we might get some news.

"Breaking News! Semi truck stalls at bridge in Nowhereville, USA!"

It's real hard to get nothing but news. It's even harder to dig deep enough to find out "why" things happen.

Wolf Blitzer is with CNN. But I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

[vvloc]

Doesnn't bother me, I would bet a lot of people on here read some of the same stuff I do. I'm not ashamed of anything.

Yes, jeffie, a lot of folks around here probably read a lot of the same things you do, but:

a. They don't brag that that is ALL that they read ('cept for the bible sometimes)

b. And if they're constantly gonna post ignorantly, they don't post their full name on the boards for all to see just who it is who is so malignantly uninformed.

So, yes, you're "aloud" to do whatever you feel appropriate.

[js9234]

Yes, jeffie, a lot of folks around here probably read a lot of the same things you do, but:

a. They don't brag that that is ALL that they read ('cept for the bible sometimes)

b. And if they're constantly gonna post ignorantly, they don't post their full name on the boards for all to see just who it is who is so malignantly uninformed.

So, yes, you're "aloud" to do whatever you feel appropriate.

I'm not bragging about anything. Maybe you should read a little more. Dictionary sounds like a good place for you to start. If you feel I post ignorantly then that is your problem. Please inform me of everything I am ignorant on so I can be a miserable old man like you who just wants to constantly fight and bicker with someone. I feel you are inappropriate in a lot of your posts but I guess that is the type of person you are. I'm glad you know everything, now I definitely don't ever have to read anything. I can just get on here and look for you and ask you everything. Glad I met you, don't know how I would have gone on without you telling me how ignorant I am and that you know everything.

[DougP]

Dictionary sounds like a good place for you to start.

Oh, am I aloud to say that oh great one?

Yes, the Dictionary does sound like a good place to start.:D

[vvloc]

You've said, "I don't read books." I'm glad to have helped you in your Herculean desires.

BTW - nice post - Probably the most coherent one you've posted, since you accused P_chan of being TP's minionaire in your 5TH week aboard.

[Old Timer]

I support Bush, the War and the Troops. I think he's done a great job and the troops are doing a lot of good over there but no one ever talks about it. Certain types of people would rather bad mouth everyone who has anything to do with th war and blame it all on Bush even if they supported it at first. He did a great job IMO after 911.


.................OK. I will :thumbup1:PM you with a bridge for sale soon!!

[js9234]

Yes, the Dictionary does sound like a good place to start.:D

Trying to be a funny guy lol :star: I guess I will start proofreading a little better...

[DougP]

Trying to be a funny guy :star:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist:thumbup1:

[Asshat]

Please inform me of everything I am ignorant on so I can be a miserable old man like you who just wants to constantly fight and bicker with someone.

I admit it! I sometimes thumb through magazines looking at the pictures first. I then read the articles later.

But hey, you need to understand that one can be a miserable old man with our without ignorance!

I prefer the term crumudgeon though. :old:

[js9234]

I admit it! I sometimes thumb through magazines looking at the pictures first. I then read the articles later.

But hey, you need to understand that one can be a miserable old man with our without ignorance!

I prefer the term crumudgeon though. :old:

I guess I will have to pull out a dictionary for that word :grin1: I read a few books but on stuff that doesn't mean a whole lot and that won't intrigue very many people. Such as "How to train a hunting dog", cook books, Fitness for life books, outdoor and animal books and books on American V8's and how to build them. I may not read the same type of books as vvloc but I bet he is very ignorant on the things I am passionate about. I still prefer magazines with pics :thumbup: I am ALOUD to do that

[dk]

Trying to be a funny guy lol :star: I guess I will start proofreading a little better...
I am ALOUD to do that
Or not, lol.

[js9234]

Or not, lol.

I capitalized it for a reason :thumbup1:

[danielwagner]

So Dannyboy, have you turned this into a personal battle?

Does the PFC with the shrappnel in his leg know more about US Foreign policy than the well-informed voter?

It appears from your posts, you have forgotten just who it is you represent, and who "you" are working for.

If you are unable to muster the intellect to post more than superficial slogans suitable for boot camp, I suggest you refrain from posting here. Posters with nothing to say don't last very long here.

Some answers, some questions.

No, not on my end.

He is the foundation of that policy. He has talked the talk and more importantly walked the walk. Yes I deeply value his experience and opinion. He is/was there. Know that this in no way depreciates your feelings or perceptions.

"Who" do you perceive is that?

Have my "posts" violated the "posting" parameters?

I'll take your suggestion under advisement. And thank you for the historical superficial poster casualty report. (Danny boy ponders to oneself) If I had an intellect would I have found the quote a (veiled) threat? Hmmmm. I’ve decided...Nope, but wait if my intellect is suspect maybe...oh, I'm getting a headache!

[Oki alumni]

Some answers, some questions.

No, not on my end.

He is the foundation of that policy. He has talked the talk and more importantly walked the walk. Yes I deeply value his experience and opinion. He is/was there. Know that this in no way depreciates your feelings or perceptions.

"Who" do you perceive is that?

Have my "posts" violated the "posting" parameters?

I'll take your suggestion under advisement. And thank you for the historical superficial poster casualty report. (Danny boy ponders to oneself) If I had an intellect would I have found the quote a (veiled) threat? Hmmmm. I’ve decided...Nope, but wait if my intellect is suspect maybe...oh, I'm getting a headache!

LOL, HERE'S your commander in chief IN ACTION! THAT is YOUR boss! (chuckle...for another 186 days, that is!).
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=FrEdjaJt9iY

That being given however, the military (USA type, multiple branches) ultimately falls under CIVILIAN control.

Just tryin' to be helpful, here.

-0ki Alumni:old:

[Asshat]

I'll take your suggestion under advisement. And thank you for the historical superficial poster casualty report. (Danny boy ponders to oneself) If I had an intellect would I have found the quote a (veiled) threat? Hmmmm. I’ve decided...Nope, but wait if my intellect is suspect maybe...oh, I'm getting a headache!

Your intellect is not suspect. However, simply uttering slogans right out of the halls of MCRD sound stale from someone who is actually "there" and more importantly, a tax-paying, voting, member of society.

Arena's of battle, justice, freedom, tyranny, and whatever else you said on your first post here sound a lot like that AFN commercial with the Silent Drill Team posed in various scenes of Americana. Great for teenaged boys with stars in their eyes looking to be the next Knight in Shining Armour...but ringing false with those of us who are still waiting for Iraqi WMD, wondering why Colin Powell disappeared after he told the UN about that WMD, and of course the myriad other aspects of leadership that would have had me sent up for courts martial when I served.

Many AD people "here" and I am sure elsewhere feel the need to justify what they are doing. It's human nature. The last thing anyone wants to be told is "thanks, but no thanks." Yet years of totally ****** up foreign policy have led the majority of the nation- which these military folks SERVE- to have doubts.

Unfortunately, it is that young PFC who knows shit about foreign policy by the way, to feel it first. For that I apologize...which is why I say, "please come back safely."

[danielwagner]

Your intellect is not suspect. However, simply uttering slogans right out of the halls of MCRD sound stale from someone who is actually "there" and more importantly, a tax-paying, voting, member of society.

Arena's of battle, justice, freedom, tyranny, and whatever else you said on your first post here sound a lot like that AFN commercial with the Silent Drill Team posed in various scenes of Americana. Great for teenaged boys with stars in their eyes looking to be the next Knight in Shining Armour...but ringing false with those of us who are still waiting for Iraqi WMD, wondering why Colin Powell disappeared after he told the UN about that WMD, and of course the myriad other aspects of leadership that would have had me sent up for courts martial when I served.

Many AD people "here" and I am sure elsewhere feel the need to justify what they are doing. It's human nature. The last thing anyone wants to be told is "thanks, but no thanks." Yet years of totally ****** up foreign policy have led the majority of the nation- which these military folks SERVE- to have doubts.

Unfortunately, it is that young PFC who knows shit about foreign policy by the way, to feel it first. For that I apologize...which is why I say, "please come back safely."

First, my apology for this windy post. Second, I really don’t like windy posts.

My problem with all of this and especially the mindset “I support the troops but not the war.”

How do you separate the man and the moment to the extent that you see, for that point in the time, he and the moment are exclusive and not inseparably intertwined?

Would you then say I

: support the doctor but not his (invasive/tissue destructive) surgical mission?

: support the police officer but not his mission when it entails enforcing the law, writing a citation or lawfully discharging his sidearm?

: support the fire fighter but not his mission when he damages property (forcible entry, ventilation cuts, etc.) while extinguishing a fire or when doing (CPR) compressions separates the sternum from the costal cartilage and ribs?

: support the minister but not the righteous sermon?

; support the local high school football player except when he has to strike his opponent in the field of play?

The enemy will exploit and eventually dominate a people not dedicated to the success of those who represent them. It is tragic to think that even one soldier, sailor, airman or marine died because our disunity provided comfort, support, encouragement or embolden the enemy to feel that his strength grows proportionally to our declining and divided constitution regarding the troops’ effort.

The schoolyard bully respects that and those who can effectively communicate in his vernacular. He dictates what avenue of communication will be received and understood. The authority cannot implement the machinations of the “system” until the bully is corralled and controlled.

Each side of this argument serves an ideology (Thank you U.S.A. Founders). But the sons and daughters in hostile fields afar deal in a blood and guts reality not a debatable one. I am for them, for what they do, where ever and when ever they are doing it.

Men are not flattered by being shown that there has been a difference of purpose between the Almighty and them. Abraham Lincoln.

Perhaps we can agree that each has a part in God’s plan. May those of us who oppose His Will find mercy for our ignorance. Of course, this prayer is for all regardless of which side we’ve erred on.

[peeps05]

I completely support our troops no matter what, how could I not they are my fam!

[Isaak Brodsky]

... Perhaps we can agree that each has a part in God’s plan. May those of us who oppose His Will find mercy for our ignorance. Of course, this prayer is for all regardless of which side we’ve erred on.

amen to that, but bush's foreign policy is a turd that can't be polished. it must be flushed entirely as its aroma settles on the citizens of the nation.

for a man who proudly wears his "faith" on his sleeve, his policies towards other nations and peoples is morally depraved. anyone who twists the gospel message in favor of throwing the first stone invites upon himself condemnation.

[peeps05]

lol yes I concur the flushing of the bowels must happen to get rid of the awful aroma that is polluting our country! lol

[vvloc]

I am for them, for what they do, where ever and when ever they are doing it.

So, Daniel, my question for you is a simple one - does your support extend as far as , let's say Lyddie England mistreating prisoners, (who may or may not be guilty of anything) in violation of the uniform codes of military justice and the Geneva Conventions?

[danielwagner]

So, Daniel, my question for you is a simple one - does your support extend as far as , let's say Lyddie England mistreating prisoners, (who may or may not be guilty of anything) in violation of the uniform codes of military justice and the Geneva Conventions?

Simply, no.

A few questions, do you believe that (to embarrass the prisoners) was the assigned mission? Was the individual you referenced trained for or selected on qualifications for that billet? Do you think Saddam and the boys are in her league? Asked because I don't have these answers.

I do think that it should have been handled discreetly. It (in my opinion) was marketed to humiliate our nation and her people. To hurt the troops and encourage the enemy.

Hey, thanks for asking.

For the record I'm not in favor of innocent casualties, in case you wondered.

[vvloc]

Simply, no.

A few questions, do you believe that (to embarrass the prisoners) was the assigned mission? Was the individual you referenced trained for or selected on qualifications for that billet? Do you think Saddam and the boys are in her league? Asked because I don't have these answers.

I do think that it should have been handled discreetly. It (in my opinion) was marketed to humiliate our nation and her people. To hurt the troops and encourage the enemy.

Hey, thanks for asking.

For the record I'm not in favor of innocent casualties, in case you wondered.

Dear Daniel,

Thank you for your honest and humane answer. In reference to your questions:

Yes I think it was the assigned mission emanating from the VP's office ordering interrogators to "take the gloves off."

No, I don't think people like England, Graner, and others were trained nor qualified to be in those positions.

I think that when the totals are added up and the whole truth known, including floating prisons, 3rd country prisons, Abu Ghraib, and Guantanemo they may equal or dwarf similar actions by Saddam.

I really disagree with your concept of it being marketed, as much of this was successfully covered up for great lengths of time - we still have little cold hard facts on alledged floating prisons.

This thread is relevant and worth revisiting:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6624

Again, I commend you for your candor and ability to think "outside the box."

[Oki alumni]

The "means" as is oft said, do not always justify the "ends". History is MOST often written by the victors, with little or no credence given to the reasons and justifications of the "losers".

Loyalty IS commendable...BLIND loyalty can get ya killed! "B-b-b-but I was just following orders.....they MADE me put those people in the ovens!" Makes me totally PUKE. THIS is one of the reasons the "oath of office" now says "lawful orders" vice just "orders". If YOUR C.O. orders you to go out and shoot the first person you see (because he's constipated), I'm SURE you won't do it. Please...let common sense prevail. Even espousing views such as vvloc, myself, and others do on this forum, COULD technically and very legally be considered treasonous, and acts of terrorism by the POTUS, and we could be "disappeared" somewhere. Scarey? You bet your sweet ass it is. Possible? You bet your sweet ass it is!

I support YOU the troops, because once under contract, you have little or no REAL choice, no matter how you'd protest otherwise. I support YOUR needs, but I DO NOT SUPPORT THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

-Oki Alumni:old:

[danielwagner]

It goes round and round. You cannot separate people from what they are about. Someone made a previous reference regarding lawful orders and unlawful orders. You own your choice. What you do is what you are about. It is illogical to support someone who is doing something that you, with your whole being are working against. It makes no sense! The American fighting man (and woman) are hurt by your support of forces that oppose them. For instance what type of morale would you expect on a high school football team that makes a great play and their hometown crowd ignores that triumphant moment of accomplishment or just plain boos the boys?. I am not comparing war to a high school sporting event.

[Asshat]

It goes round and round. You cannot separate people from what they are about. Someone made a previous reference regarding lawful orders and unlawful orders. You own your choice. What you do is what you are about. It is illogical to support someone who is doing something that you, with your whole being are working against. It makes no sense! The American fighting man (and woman) are hurt by your support of forces that oppose them. For instance what type of morale would you expect on a high school football team that makes a great play and their hometown crowd ignores that triumphant moment of accomplishment or just plain boos the boys?. I am not comparing war to a high school sporting event.

Daniel, thank you for your salient and intelligent posts! You answer a question that many here (and in America) ask; "How do I support the troops, and not support the war?"

One cannot.

That puts me in a very difficult position. I absolutely detest what our government has done with the lies, misdirection, and authorization to torture. I don't want to get into a discussion on that aspect. Suffice it to say, that this is what I am feeling.

So what do I do? Bury my feelings and support a regime that is so slimey I detest them in order to make military people get warm-fuzzy's? Or do I as a citizen and a patriot of our country demand accountability and morality from our elected officials?

[Isaak Brodsky]

It goes round and round. You cannot separate people from what they are about. Someone made a previous reference regarding lawful orders and unlawful orders. You own your choice. What you do is what you are about. It is illogical to support someone who is doing something that you, with your whole being are working against. It makes no sense! The American fighting man (and woman) are hurt by your support of forces that oppose them. For instance what type of morale would you expect on a high school football team that makes a great play and their hometown crowd ignores that triumphant moment of accomplishment or just plain boos the boys?. I am not comparing war to a high school sporting event.

The messenger-and-the-message metaphor apply here. War (the violence inflicted by a fighting force) is the message from a morally vacant messenger (George Bush et al.). It’s hard to accept the message, especially given the one sending it.

[DougP]

I'm still not exactly to clear on what everyone's definition of supporting the troops really is. My guess is that it varies from person to person. Some would argue that the greatest support one could give to the men and women in uniform would be to bring them home. Supporting them would mean taking them out of combat and keeping them from being exploited by felonious executive agendas. The act of bringing them home I'd imagine is the farthest thing from supporting the war yet its the closest thing to genuinely supporting the troops, especially if they are someone you truly care for.

[danielwagner]

Daniel, thank you for your salient and intelligent posts! You answer a question that many here (and in America) ask; "How do I support the troops, and not support the war?"

One cannot.

That puts me in a very difficult position. I absolutely detest what our government has done with the lies, misdirection, and authorization to torture. I don't want to get into a discussion on that aspect. Suffice it to say, that this is what I am feeling.

So what do I do? Bury my feelings and support a regime that is so slimey I detest them in order to make military people get warm-fuzzy's? Or do I as a citizen and a patriot of our country demand accountability and morality from our elected officials?


The American flag bearing kids must come first. It's hard to deny oneself a deserved vindication. But those kids come first!

Don’t abandon those American kids in hostile fields afar, or soon to be, or soon to be returning!!

Your moral/political/emotional quandary has a negative effect on the morale of these kids. Be strong for them. I’m not suggesting that you be untrue to your core beliefs but rather you commit to their struggle until they are out of harms way.

Murtha called the Marines cold blooded murders! Many Democratic members of the US Congress spoke disparagingly about General Petraeus prior to his presentation. Why? Presidential candidates used to speak of pulling out. What is their professional political commitment now? Why is that?

What message is being sent to those intent on killing our overseas sons and daughters in uniform?

Are our sons and daughters expected to toil and sacrifice while other Americans question the very gift that too many have placed upon the altar of Liberty? Must there own countrymen cause them too doubt if what they are about is moral or Godly or human or decent? A hesitant combatant is a soon to be dead combatant.

Let these kids struggle against a most treacherous and deadly foe with the knowledge that the American people are praying, caring about, weeping for and blessing their commitment and sacrifice. AND yes what they are about!! Warriors at war. Neither exists without the other.

[Asshat]

The American flag bearing kids must come first. It's hard to deny oneself a deserved vindication. But those kids come first!

It's aweful damn hard to be a sellout while these bandits are the ones who put those "kids" in harm's way in the first place.

To truely care about the American flag bearing kids is to get them the hell out of this bullshit. I don't need vindication. Colin Powell's sudden departure after his infamous speach to the UN security councel was vindication enough.

By pretending to support President Bush for the troops, I am serving to further endanger their lives. We need to save them for the real battles. Not the one's our President invented.

[Oki alumni]

For ME, the REALLY SIMPLE answer is just to get the hell out of the Middle East. Search if you must, for those WMDs at home, haha. At least the money will be pouring into a country that REALLY needs it right now...the U.S.A. Strike a blow for freedom...join the Homeland Security forces. Yup, it's "not that simple"...but it damn well COULD be. I STILL do not support the war, and by THIS non-support, I do NOT "give aide to the enemy". That's the biggest cop-out yet. The current administration "maketh me to puke!".

-0ki Alumni

[danielwagner]

For ME, the REALY SIMPLE answer is just to get the hell out of the Middle East. Search if you must, for those WMDs at home, haha. At least the money will be pouring into a country that REALLY needs it right now...the U.S.A. Strike a blow for freedom...join the Homeland Security forces. Yup, it's "not that simple"...but it damn well COULD be. I STILL do not support the war, and by THIS non-support, I do NOT "give aide to the enemy". That's the biggest cop-out yet. The current administration "maketh me to puke!".

-0ki Alumni

Oki, Your sentiment is understood. You loathe some of our leaders and members of the administration. If I have it right?

But know that comfort and support can be given overtly to one or by omission to another. By denying one the other will benefit.

May we all do what we do owning it with eyes wide open.

[danielwagner]

It's aweful damn hard to be a sellout while these bandits are the ones who put those "kids" in harm's way in the first place.

To truely care about the American flag bearing kids is to get them the hell out of this bullshit. I don't need vindication. Colin Powell's sudden departure after his infamous speach to the UN security councel was vindication enough.

By pretending to support President Bush for the troops, I am serving to further endanger their lives. We need to save them for the real battles. Not the one's our President invented.


Rest easy, your choice appears to be made. Unless you change it. I wasn't suggesting supporting anyone save our combatants. Do you think you have President Bush indelibly imprinted on the retina of your mind's eye? Oh well, hopefully it will be the love of those kids that will motivate you rather than the hate for a particular person or group of people. I suspect we will not pull out anytime soon. No matter His Will be done. Shalom

[Asshat]

Rest easy, your choice appears to be made. Unless you change it. I wasn't suggesting supporting anyone save our combatants. Do you think you have President Bush indelibly imprinted on the retina of your mind's eye? Oh well, hopefully it will be the love of those kids that will motivate you rather than the hate for a particular person or group of people. I suspect we will not pull out anytime soon. No matter His Will be done. Shalom

Oh no, since I have three grown sons, it is they and my fellow Marines I have in my eye- or more pointedly, their safety from not only tyranny outside of our borders, but that tyranny which our leaders have invented for their purposes. I have hate for absolutely no one.

I doubt very seriously that "His will" has anything to do with killing people.

[Oki alumni]

Oki, Your sentiment is understood. You loathe some of our leaders and members of the administration. If I have it right?

But know that comfort and support can be given overtly to one or by omission to another. By denying one the other will benefit.

May we all do what we do owning it with eyes wide open.

Viet-Nam...part II(?). The politicians of ALL political persuasions used these same "reasons":barf: I did indeed "loathe" them in THEIR turn. Was THAT "comfort and support"???

IIRC, "Getting the HELL out!" worked pretty damn good in that situation. WE also did MUCH good there, too. Construction, hearts-and-minds, etc.....there is some very nice film footage of water-boarding that took place during that "ancient" time too...available in the "Vietnam, The Ten-Thousand Day War" series. Even if "hindsight is 20/20", lessons can never the less be learned...IF leadership will pull their collective heads out of their collective arses.

Bring back the draft, and see how "popular" the war remains.

I can respect the boxers without enjoying a boxing match one bit!

Maybe those with "eyes wide open" owning what they do, see only what they WANT to see. My country...right or wrong!?!?!?!?

-Oki Alumni:old:

[Isaak Brodsky]

I'm still not exactly to clear on what everyone's definition of supporting the troops really is. ...

excellent point. one man's "support" may be a passive acceptance of the norm. another man's "support" may be an active rejection of the norm.

[Isaak Brodsky]

...

I doubt very seriously that "His will" has anything to do with killing people.

amen to that.

bush is an exceedingly unreliable witness for the faith he professes to have. what's most astounding and remarkable, to me, are the self-professed christians who support this lunatic's fully warped sense of the gospel message.

seems too many people are still so wrapped up in the post-9/11 patriotic fervor to recognize the bizarre marriage of christ's message to the american conception of patrios.

[Oki0619]

To all the arm chair quarterbacks out there what would you have done? How would you fix the mess that Clinton created, by neglecting to react to the embassies that were blown up, His Fiasco in Somalia, His refusal to take Bin Laden when offered up on a platter? Would you have lobbed two missles at training camps long abandoned?? How would you have solved the Saddam problem? What would you do to fix the growing Iranian and North Korean problems? Throw more money at them?

[DougP]

excellent point. one man's "support" may be a passive acceptance of the norm. another man's "support" may be an active rejection of the norm.

To add to that, other than those in uniform, I rarely see an admittance of supporting the troops or the war as being anything along the lines of direct support. For example recycling tin and rubber to the military so they can manufacture equipment. Rarely is it ever a voluntary act of offering goods and or services directly involved in the war or something directly for the troops over there. Sure technically anyone who pays federal taxes is involuntarily supporting the missions being drawn up and executed by the current administration. But again this, although support, is involuntary. So to me, often when I hear that phrase, I think of it as nothing more than a verbal pledge of moral support. Something to support their(troop's) morale and as you mentioned, passively accept and support the norm which is America's involvement in the middle east. I think its in our nature to wish our fellow humans the best and hope for them to return safe. For a great many it also seems to be in our nature to reject acts of violence to include war once we've come to terms with the kind of suffering it causes.

[vvloc]

To all the arm chair quarterbacks out there what would you have done? How would you fix the mess that Clinton created, by neglecting to react to the embassies that were blown up, His Fiasco in Somalia, His refusal to take Bin Laden when offered up on a platter? Would you have lobbed two missles at training camps long abandoned?? How would you have solved the Saddam problem? What would you do to fix the growing Iranian and North Korean problems? Throw more money at them?

Obviously this thread is way beyond the self-proclaimed "JU's resident ass" to comprehend:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7154

so I'll leave it to others to 'splain to you how infantile and inane your questions are?

Your stupid siggie says "spellcheck is there for a reason" - forget to use it on "missles?"

[Oki0619]

I have already read that and my question remains the same you don't have a clue, you sit here quote CNN and garner praiser from your fellow liberal buddies. So why are you not back in the states running for office to fix this? All you do is flap your gums but offer no solutions other than regurgitated googling cut and pastes. If you had an original thought it might make a worthy conversation...... But again throw your rocks and jump on the band wagon, dont worry about fixing the problems you so vehemently scream about.

[DougP]

To all the arm chair quarterbacks out there what would you have done? How would you fix the mess that Clinton created, by neglecting to react to the embassies that were blown up, His Fiasco in Somalia, His refusal to take Bin Laden when offered up on a platter? Would you have lobbed two missles at training camps long abandoned?? How would you have solved the Saddam problem? What would you do to fix the growing Iranian and North Korean problems? Throw more money at them?

I'm sure someone can expand and indulged upon my response to your question. Simply put, you assumption that this mess was the bastard step child and the mess of Clinton is a misinformed one. Don't worry though, I was under the same false assumption you are. You are going to have to turn back a few pages in history to get the real story. 1953 is a good start however you may even want to go back a little further to 1908. I'm not going to say anymore on that but what you will find may in fact surprise you. This of course all correlates with the events that have occurred since and with the policies in response to such events etc.. Even Bin Laden is a prime example of what can happen when national interests turn to meddling to accomplish agendas. I am being dead serious when I say you need to dig a bit deeper. Follow the money, follow events in history a little further than headlines and start doing what most of us stop doing by middle school, ask "Why?"

[Oki0619]

I don't need a history lesson from any of the "google" scholars here, I am asking what "You" would do to fix it, but so far all I have gotten is my questions in quotes and an attempt to make yourselves look superior to others as most liberals try to pull off. The fact is our foreign policy of intervention has been one sided and only when "our" interests have been involved. Why are we not fixing the problems in the Sudan... no oil, I could go on with thousands of examples, but you have all failed to answer my question.

IN TODAY'S WORLD WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO FIX THIS MESS?

A simple I don't know would suffice.

[vvloc]

I have already read that and my question remains the same you don't have a clue, you sit here quote CNN and garner praiser from your fellow liberal buddies. So why are you not back in the states running for office to fix this? All you do is flap your gums but offer no solutions other than regurgitated googling cut and pastes. If you had an original thought it might make a worthy conversation...... But again throw your rocks and jump on the band wagon, dont worry about fixing the problems you so vehemently scream about.

Reading and comprehending are two quite different things - Obviously you didn't comprehend the VERY 1ST of the YouTubes Doug posted (which required NO READING, 06). Ron Paul gave a very clear and succinct answer to your question (Which I support).

And you really should do something about that malfunctioning spellchecker of yours ("praiser") or do you just not know how to use it.

[Oki0619]

once again you can't answer the question,
praise perhaps it was a typo as the e and r are next to each other

Ron Paul a real American Genius as are you vv

and as Doug said some of us cannot view those links from work but continue to try to feel like an elitist intellectual and go google some more propaganda

[vvloc]

Why are we not fixing the problems in the Sudan...

And had you looked at another of the YouTube videos, you'd have noticed we have done something about Sudan. We bombed an aspirin factory and claimed it was a chemical weapons facility.

I just love these intellectually challenged ones who try to pretend they've read/seen the previous posts in a thread and then come across as phony as a three dollar bill.

[Asshat]

I don't need a history lesson from any of the "google" scholars here, I am asking what "You" would do to fix it, but so far all I have gotten is my questions in quotes and an attempt to make yourselves look superior to others as most liberals try to pull off. The fact is our foreign policy of intervention has been one sided and only when "our" interests have been involved. Why are we not fixing the problems in the Sudan... no oil, I could go on with thousands of examples, but you have all failed to answer my question.

IN TODAY'S WORLD WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO FIX THIS MESS?

A simple I don't know would suffice.

I'm not a Google scholar. If you follow any of my posts you know that.

What I would do to fix the mess?

1. Stop allowing oil companies to run the country (and elections)
2. Allow financial incentives for alternate fuel research/purchase of green products.
3. Raise tarriffs on all imported oil.
4. Refuse to deal with any Saudi Company.
5. Reduce support of Israel defense and political aims.
6. Begin long term diplomacy with Arab Nations/UN for solutions to refugees.
7. Not enter any conflict without accurate intell and seek UN/ally concurence before committing.
8. Institute mandatory two-year service to country followed by paid-for two year post HS education program.

there are more, but you get the picture. That sound liberal enough for you? How about number 9. Not allow religious organizations to contribute to campaigns.

[vvloc]

as Doug said some of us cannot view those links from work but continue to try to feel like an elitist intellectual and go google some more propaganda

If you can't view them from work than keep your mouth shut 'til you get home and view them, instead of pretending you have a clue as to what the thread is about.

[Oki0619]

I just love these intellectually challenged ones who try to pretend they've read/seen the previous posts in a thread and then come across as phony as a three dollar bill.

Once again as Doug said some of us cannot view youtube at work, hmm maybe your post applies to you as well..... I said I read it, not watched it.

[DougP]

I don't need a history lesson from any of the "google" scholars here, I am asking what "You" would do to fix it, but so far all I have gotten is my questions in quotes and an attempt to make yourselves look superior to others as most liberals try to pull off. The fact is our foreign policy of intervention has been one sided and only when "our" interests have been involved. Why are we not fixing the problems in the Sudan... no oil, I could go on with thousands of examples, but you have all failed to answer my question.

IN TODAY'S WORLD WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO FIX THIS MESS?

A simple I don't know would suffice.

First off, I was not trying to be condescending or overly critical of your question due to the fact that it coincided with what was my train of thought for a very long time.

I will say that in order to correctly address a problem one much examine very closely and carefully the history behind the current problem. For one the details and causes of the current problem lie within history. From what history has shown this problem that we now face is the direct result in our failed foreign policy and our constant meddling in lands thousands of miles away from home.

To fix the problem I would:
1.) Pull out of the middle east. Bring the troops home to the land that they are meant to defend. Bring back the "defense" in The Department of Defense, which has turn back into The Department of War.

2.) Cease and desist in the propping up of governments via sponsoring a Coup d'état. Stop meddling in other nations like we did with Iran in the 50s and like we did when we sponsored Saddam in the 80s. Stop pissing off everyone else in the world and creating more enemies to fight. If we had never gone in and messed with the middle east after WWII we would not be in this mess.

3) Concentrate on building our own nation up from within our borders. Economy is usually a good place to start.

4.) Down size our government.

Simply put, learn form our mistakes(yes OUR mistakes) learn what does not work and do not repeat them ever again. You don't make people respect you or like you, that is something you earn. You do not force our example of our way of life on people you set the example. Its Hearts and Minds not Body parts and Mines.

[Oki0619]

Well at least Ass and Doug Have the ability to answer the question posed where vv all you can do is sling mud, Ass thanks for your response and as I agree with most of what you posted as long as you add increase tariffs on chinese made goods I will vote for either of you, because you are probably better than the other two choices. VV if I came across you dying in the desert I would not piss in your mouth to save you (how is that for being an ass).

[vvloc]

Why are we not fixing the problems in the Sudan... no oil

I just love these keyboard scholars who make up facts to suit their perverted agendas, thinking others here will swallow their BS; hook, line, and sinker:

"Eighty-five percent of Africa's exports to China come from five oil-rich countries (Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Nigeria, the Republic of Congo, and Sudan), according to the World Bank."

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9557/

Now who ya' gonna' believe: Zero-six or the Council of foreign Relations???

[vvloc]

VV if I came across you dying in the desert I would not piss in your mouth to save you (how is that for being an ass).

Not much different than i would expect from someone who passes moronic statements as you've constantly been doing since you arrived.

You ain't related to zorro by any chance are ya'?

[Oki0619]

still no answer to the question, too late now any response would be likely stolen from Doug or Ass, whose tailcoats you ride on with your nose gently nuzzled in their ass.

[vvloc]

still no answer to the question, too late now any response would be likely stolen from Doug or Ass, whose tailcoats you ride on with your nose gently nuzzled in their ass.

Still waiting to hear where you ever got the TOTALLY false, ill-informed, and ignorant idea that there was/is no oil in the Sudan?

Do you even know where the Sudan is?

[DougP]

Keep things civil in here and refrain from personal insults.

Try to discuss the issue, debate the issue not the person you are responding to. NO need for conversational terrorism:)

[Asshat]

I would also legalize protitution and decriminalize or legalize pot. I KNOW I wouldn't get the Jesus vote.

[Oki0619]

"Eighty-five percent of Africa's exports to China come from five oil-rich countries (Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Nigeria, the Republic of Congo, and Sudan), according to the World Bank."


Well there are 6 countries listed there how do you explain that? Maybe Sudan's oil reserves are a joke like you, not worth our interests.


Africa holds a fraction of the world's proven oil reserves—9 percent compared to the Middle East's nearly 62 percent—but industry analysts believe it could hold significant undiscovered reserves. As a result, China is seeking to increase its oil imports from the continent. It now receives about one-third of its oil imports from Africa, 9 percent of the continent's total exports in 2006 (by contrast, the United States purchased 33 percent of that year's exports from Africa). China's biggest suppliers in Africa as of 2006 were Angola, the Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, and Sudan. It has also sought supplies from Chad, Nigeria, Algeria, and Gabon.

So the Sudan holds a fraction of the 9% but analysts believe there could be more, and analysts believe that there could be life on Mars.......

[vvloc]

Well there are 6 countries listed there

In addition to having no reading comprehension, a chronic inability to use your spellchecker, you can't EVEN count to 5, even when the number is printed out in BOLD, sonnyboy

[Asshat]

No one better tell George Bush that, because next we'll be fighting terrorists in Africa too. And they really have them!

[DougP]

Well there are 6 countries listed there how do you explain that? Maybe Sudan's oil reserves are a joke like you, not worth our interests.
Here is the quote you manipulated to make yourself look better

Last warning on the insults here.

That goes for anybody and everybody

I'm in the good mood still and its Friday so don't make me fire up the infracto-canon :)

[Asshat]

Yo VV and 069, am I going to have to come over there and knock your heads together?

Sitting on the outside, you both are so bent on screwing each other with factoids, that dumbasses like me can't even follow along. Plus your mutual mastrubation of insults is getting tiring.

You sound like TP and I! LMAO! And no one liked that either.

[vvloc]

analysts believe that there could be life on Mars.......

And I believe there may be some miniscule amounts of grey matter in your empty cranial cavity, BUT I doubt it.

[Isaak Brodsky]

... to make yourselves look superior to others as most liberals try to pull off. ...

only curious to know, here, why you conclude that those who oppose your views are liberals...

[DougP]

No one better tell George Bush that, because next we'll be fighting terrorists in Africa too. And they really have them!

NO kidding. Seriously I've noticed that our foreign policy is a lot like our domestic policy. Its a policy of getting all up in other peoples koolaid. Moving away from the constitutional ideals of individual freedom and staying out of everybody's business.

[vvloc]

problems in the Sudan... no oil,

ANd you're trying to play fast and loose with the facts again, ZERO-6; you said "no oil" and you're backtracking already.

[Oki0619]

once again back to the mud slinging and side stepping

No answer to the fraction of the 9%, my god they could hold up to 1.8% of the worlds oil reserves (if only those 5 have oil in all of Africa and all have an equal share spelling it out for you vv)lets attack and set up a puppet government to exploit all that wealth, Hell Mexico has more than that lets get them too while we are at it, then we can enjoy Pacificos and carne asade.

[Asshat]

once again back to the mud slinging and side stepping

No answer to the fraction of the 9%, my god they could hold up to 1.8% of the worlds oil reserves (if only those 5 have oil in all of Africa and all have an equal share spelling it out for you vv)lets attack and set up a puppet government to exploit all that wealth, Hell Mexico has more than that lets get them too while we are at it, then we can enjoy Pacificos and carne asade.

LMAO! What do you think NAFTA was?

[DougP]

lets attack and set up a puppet government to exploit all that wealth, Hell Mexico has more than that lets get them too while we are at it, then we can enjoy Pacificos and carne asade.

I am guessing that you are being sarcastic when you suggest this but fyi this is exactly what got us into the mess we are in right now. In fact what you brought up has been part of our foreign policy for over half a century.

[vvloc]

only curious to know, here, why you conclude that those who oppose your views are liberals...

short response: "I may not always be right, but you are always wrong"

That should be clue enough where this one's coming from.

[Asshat]

I am guessing that you are being sarcastic when you suggest this but fyi this is exactly what got us into the mess we are in right now. In fact what you brought up has been part of our foreign policy for over half a century.

Remember The Alamo?

[Oki0619]

North American Free Trade Agreement was a an attempt to militarily invade Mexico? Hell I need to get my learn on from you guys!! Where are the classes?

[vvloc]

I am guessing that you are being sarcastic when you suggest this but fyi this is exactly what got us into the mess we are in right now. In fact what you brought up has been part of our foreign policy for over half a century.

He couldn't view the videos, Doug - he's at work (wah, wah, wah) - he has no idea what you are referring to.

[Old Timer]

It is hard for me to believe that (1) Anybody does or could align themselves by political party, and (2) Not see the glaring stupidity that is and has made and becomes most politicians in the U.S. Nevertheless, oki169/ vvloc slog away for people that could care less, or make a snap decision to turn them into “cannon fodder” without blinking an eye. What is even worse in my old age, is the ability to understand some political reasoning, and also know in my heart that I could make a decision to nuke some of these foreign ingrates, eat a 32 ounce steak, fart, and get a good nights sleep………and probably have to be reminded what I did the day before. :barf:

[vvloc]

I need to get my learn on from you guys!!

Regardless of where you get your "learn on," clearly that's a major part of your problem.

[Oki0619]

yes it was sarcasm as was my previous post on NAFTA, I am too tired to continue to give VV is trolljuice for today we can pick this up on Monday, it makes the day go by faster.

[Old Timer]

He couldn't view the videos, Doug - he's at work (wah, wah, wah) - he has no idea what you are referring to.







:rolleyes: sorry for the interupt.

[Oki0619]

Regardless of where you get your "learn on," clearly that's a major part of your problem.

you are so clever, perhaps you will enlighten us with your thesis on world peace one day til Monday STFU!

[Asshat]

North American Free Trade Agreement was a an attempt to militarily invade Mexico? Hell I need to get my learn on from you guys!!

No it was an attempt (successful) to keep getting good deals on labor, and oil though, which is what I thought the premise of the later part of this discussion was about.

I can't understand why you are so angry Oh 69. Is it that you are uncomfortable with confronting the fact that our country has been involved in so many shady deals? Or is it that others are aware of it?

You don't need the internet to find this stuff out. The Warrior libraries are chocked full of history books. Please, check out the UFC and Guatamala. It is one of the best examples of US Foreign policies and how the US works for business to depose leaders of other countries...oh and the president's wife was in the company, as was the intell boss at the time.

And we sent in the Marines to topple this duly elected leader so the UFC (now called Dole) could take the land back from the Guatamalan people. Go ahead. Check it out. Happened 50 years ago. After WWII. Come on.

[vvloc]

If ZERO6 can say "VVLOC my own personal troll," does that mean I could put, ZERO6, my pet cockroach in my siggy?

[dk]

Do not single out a member of these forums by naming them in your signature as a means to instigate trouble.

Straight from the rule book. Removed your sig. Do not add it back. Thank you.

[Asshat]

Do not single out a member of these forums by naming them in your signature as a means to instigate trouble.

Straight from the rule book. Removed your sig. Do not add it back. Thank you.

Yep it is. I remember that rule. Can't do a derogatory slam against a member in a siggy.

[DougP]

Do not single out a member of these forums by naming them in your signature as a means to instigate trouble.

Straight from the rule book. Removed your sig. Do not add it back. Thank you.

Nevermind. There's my answer. :)

[Oki alumni]

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/photoplog/index.php?n=182

Try to cuss the issue, berate the issue as well as the person you are responding to and be ye therefore ZINGED with prejudice. The need for conversational terrorism is minimal at the maximum :).

Just having a little fun with things.

-Oki Alumni:old:

[DougP]

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/photoplog/index.php?n=182

Try to cuss the issue, berate the issue as well as the person you are responding to and be ye therefore ZINGED with prejudice. The need for conversational terrorism is minimal at the maximum :).

Just having a little fun with things.

-Oki Alumni:old:

I never tire of reading your posts even when I can't make heads or tails of them.:D

[Asshat]

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/photoplog/index.php?n=182

Try to cuss the issue, berate the issue as well as the person you are responding to and be ye therefore ZINGED with prejudice. The need for conversational terrorism is minimal at the maximum :).

Just having a little fun with things.

-Oki Alumni:old:

It is indeed a special art to be able to accomplish all of that within the confines of the laws.

this is not limited to JU of course since religion and politics are oft scorned subjects amongst the genteel.

[Oki alumni]

No it was an attempt (successful) to keep getting good deals on labor, and oil though, which is what I thought the premise of the later part of this discussion was about.

I can't understand why you are so angry Oh 69. Is it that you are uncomfortable with confronting the fact that our country has been involved in so many shady deals? Or is it that others are aware of it?

You don't need the internet to find this stuff out. The Warrior libraries are chocked full of history books. Please, check out the UFC and Guatamala. It is one of the best examples of US Foreign policies and how the US works for business to depose leaders of other countries...oh and the president's wife was in the company, as was the intell boss at the time.

And we sent in the Marines to topple this duly elected leader so the UFC (now called Dole) could take the land back from the Guatamalan people. Go ahead. Check it out. Happened 50 years ago. After WWII. Come on.

Yup...the U.S. Government...making GOOD deals with wonderful people since the beginning of the nation...for as long as the rivers shall flow, for as long as there is a sky overhead...for as long as there is air to breathe...this long shall our promise to you continue. Or words to that effect to several small individual native American populations and governments.

WAIT...don't run, don't go....I'M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M HERE TO HELP YOU!!!

-Oki Alumni:old:

[Asshat]

...here, have a nice warm blanket!

[vvloc]

If you've not viewed this thread from today, yet, Oki:

http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7154

I think you'll enjoy it - it's right up your alley,

[Oki alumni]

...here, have a nice warm blanket!

Any extra charge for the small-pox? What's that funny coloured water in that bottle, anyhow?

[DougP]

...here, have a nice warm blanket!

Or a dictator that will help us pump oil out of your country *snicker snicker*

[Old Timer]

Or a dictator that will help us pump oil out of your country *snicker snicker*


Or an American Politician able to accomplish the same at Nuclear Gun Point!!:dead:

[danielwagner]

Oh no, since I have three grown sons, it is they and my fellow Marines I have in my eye- or more pointedly, their safety from not only tyranny outside of our borders, but that tyranny which our leaders have invented for their purposes. I have hate for absolutely no one.

I doubt very seriously that "His will" has anything to do with killing people.

Semper Fi.

[wiscsurf]

Semper Fi.

Read your Bible lately? I'm talking, just about ALL of the Old Testiment? His will apparently involves killing people quite a lot.

[danielwagner]

Read your Bible lately? I'm talking, just about ALL of the Old Testiment? His will apparently involves killing people quite a lot.

I'm missing your point.

[Cathleen_38]

truthfully, I think we should've stayed out of iraq and finished the war in Afghanistan first, find Osama Bin Laden, hang him by his balls to a post and light a friggin' match with lighter fluid. And say, here ya go, ya mother effin' for doing the sh!t you did to innocent people who didn't deserve to die! (troops included) And then go fight all those other bastards that cause terrorism for the U.S. I personally don't like how we went about the war, but I've gotten to the point to where I don't even watch Bush and his stupid remarks anymore. And that's bad when you're a vet and american too. I'm 1000000000000000000% for the troops. God Bless each and every one of them, truly!! I hope Osama Bin Laden rots in hell..

[danielwagner]

Oh no, since I have three grown sons, it is they and my fellow Marines I have in my eye- or more pointedly, their safety from not only tyranny outside of our borders, but that tyranny which our leaders have invented for their purposes. I have hate for absolutely no one.

I doubt very seriously that "His will" has anything to do with killing people.

That being a given (your mind's eye focus) what about supporting other USMC American sons and their overseas business? Don't be consumed by your hatred of a man that you cannot control.

The Bible may show another take on your assumption. A hardened heart dictates the avenue of communication. Our choices (as we are free to make them) do serve His Will.

[P_chan]

Why are we brining the bible into this?

[danielwagner]

Why are we brining the bible into this?

Why do you ask? Not trying to be a comedian. What is your standard?

[P_chan]

Why do you ask? Not trying to be a comedian. What is your standard?

Just curious as to how the bible plays into anything anyone is saying. My standard? My standard for what? Morals and beliefs? If you're asking if I believe in fairy tales and magical men in the sky then the answer is no. But does that make me any less of a person or does it keep me from treating others in a respectful way? Of course it doesn't.

[Oki alumni]

Just curious as to how the bible plays into anything anyone is saying. My standard? My standard for what? Morals and beliefs? If you're asking if I believe in fairy tales and magical men in the sky then the answer is no. But does that make me any less of a person or does it keep me from treating others in a respectful way? Of course it doesn't.

I'll DEFINITELY have to agree with P-Chan's basic surmise here. While I DO have my own belief, I don't think my particular beliefs have relevance, nor does reference to a tome of work on MY particular belief belong in this discussion. YMMV.

-Oki Alumni:old:

[vvloc]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ9tevsY17s

[Oki alumni]

Thanks vvloc. As haunting as yesterday, as fresh as today. Where HAVE all the flowers gone?

-Oki Alumni:old:

[vvloc]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=aPODPhqr64A&feature=related

Yeah, these songs are from OUR days Oki, and ,maybe, some can begin to understand our perspectives from them.

[vvloc]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=QslV5asj_yM&feature=related

[Oki alumni]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=aPODPhqr64A&feature=related

Yeah, these songs are from OUR days Oki, and ,maybe, some can begin to understand our perspectives from them.

The same song, in English, "updated", and by a name you're SURE to recognize vvloc:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=sKvdPsnkPC0


-Oki Alumni:old:

[danielwagner]

I'll DEFINITELY have to agree with P-Chan's basic surmise here. While I DO have my own belief, I don't think my particular beliefs have relevance, nor does reference to a tome of work on MY particular belief belong in this discussion. YMMV.

-Oki Alumni:old:

Very interesting response Oki, especially because of your "author unknown" quotation being 2/3 biblical (the Truth part). Look at John 8:32. You've been espousing, in part, the words of Jesus Christ without being aware of it?

[Isaak Brodsky]

... isn't the topic of discussion actually about whether or not participants here support our troops in iraq? just curious.

[danielwagner]

Just curious as to how the bible plays into anything anyone is saying. My standard? My standard for what? Morals and beliefs? If you're asking if I believe in fairy tales and magical men in the sky then the answer is no. But does that make me any less of a person or does it keep me from treating others in a respectful way? Of course it doesn't.

Fair enough. Any being made in His image should be able to respect another.

Recently attended a funeral for a murdered safety officer. Liberty, a God given gift allows us to do that which is right. The lawless being who has taken this officer's life forgot in Whose image he had been cast.

The standard a person chooses does set the tone for their life wouldn't you agree? Do standards of behavior change? What was once wrong can then become right or vice-a-versa? How about God, Jesus Christ, eternity, faith...any thoughts on this? Fairy tales? I'm with you I wouldn't believe in those either.

[danielwagner]

True, that is the posted topic. Thanks for pulling it back...as an aspiring "fear of God" individual I sometimes digress. If you look at the referenced poster's quote and my stated aspiration you may be able to see how that might happen. Thanks again Ian Brody!

[Oki alumni]

Very interesting response Oki, especially because of your "author unknown" quotation being 2/3 biblical (the Truth part). Look at John 8:32. You've been espousing, in part, the words of Jesus Christ without being aware of it?


Paraphrased quote OF a quote there Daniel. It may have lost a little in MY "translation". I once saw a "referred to author" of THIS quote (a military man, I think), but lost the reference...I don't BELIEVE it was God...but I could be mistaken.:grin1:

I plagerize from Jesus too, if that's any consolation to ya! I'm just saying that I don't THINK this is a religious forum...I could be mistaken THERE too, though.:clear19:

-Oki Alumni:old: (Satire and sarcasm MAY play a "minor" part in my siggy)

[P_chan]

Ok, let's not turn this into a sunday sermon shall we? Stay on topic and take the religious dribble into a religious thread. Also, I really wouldn't consider liberty to be a god given gift. More like an inherent right that eveyrone should have.

Yes fairy tales taken from the book you're referencing in your earlier post. I don't believe them. But like myself and Ian already said, this is off topic. So please take it to the preach on thread or somewhere else.

[Oki alumni]

Ok, let's not turn this into a sunday sermon shall we? Stay on topic and take the religious dribble into a religious thread. Also, I really wouldn't consider liberty to be a god given gift. More like an inherent right that eveyrone should have.

Yes fairy tales taken from the book you're referencing in your earlier post. I don't believe them. But like myself and Ian already said, this is off topic. So please take it to the preach on thread or somewhere else.

LOL, can I have an "AMEN" to that bothers 'n sisters?

-Oki Alumni:old:713

714

[Isaak Brodsky]

True, that is the posted topic. Thanks for pulling it back...as an aspiring "fear of God" individual I sometimes digress. If you look at the referenced poster's quote and my stated aspiration you may be able to see how that might happen. Thanks again Ian Brody!

Yeah, I can see how that might happen. The topic you're opening up with a response, though, is a complex one. No?

You seem to be relatively new to this forum, so you may not have noticed how the subject categories are arranged. If you go to the main forum page, you'll likely see a category "Religion and Beliefs." This is a place where forum participants pose questions of the nature you're willing to entertain.

You seem intent on following this line of reasoning of yours, so why not follow it up there by starting a thread related to it for people to weigh in on? Just a thought.

Not trying to marginalize the topic, just think each topic deserves some undivided attention. Cheers.

[danielwagner]

Yeah, I can see how that might happen. The topic you're opening up with a response, though, is a complex one. No?

You seem to be relatively new to this forum, so you may not have noticed how the subject categories are arranged. If you go to the main forum page, you'll likely see a category "Religion and Beliefs." This is a place where forum participants pose questions of the nature you're willing to entertain.

You seem intent on following this line of reasoning of yours, so why not follow it up there by starting a thread related to it for people to weigh in on? Just a thought.

Not trying to marginalize the topic, just think each topic deserves some undivided attention. Cheers.


Double Cheers Ian Brody. Well played.

[Asshat]

lol, with a name like Ian, he's jut GOTTA be a Briton! Of course somewhere along the lines he has learned to use "z" instead of "s" but hey...this has as much to do with Supporting the Troops and Religion.

I thought about this over the weekend. My ethics are not up for sale. I wont be sitting around gawking at the Emporers New Clothes while more children of the lower classes are shipped home in body bags. Not when I didn't receive a threat from the bad guys, but was lied to by the good guys.

Don't bother responding. My morality demands I do what I can to to stop killing.

[danielwagner]

lol, with a name like Ian, he's jut GOTTA be a Briton! Of course somewhere along the lines he has learned to use "z" instead of "s" but hey...this has as much to do with Supporting the Troops and Religion.

I thought about this over the weekend. My ethics are not up for sale. I wont be sitting around gawking at the Emporers New Clothes while more children of the lower classes are shipped home in body bags. Not when I didn't receive a threat from the bad guys, but was lied to by the good guys.

Don't bother responding. My morality demands I do what I can to to stop killing.

I too, hope your morality wins out and you can stop killing.

[Asshat]

I too, hope your morality wins out and you can stop killing.

1. I retired ten years ago.
2. My morality and my integrity are intact.
3. Conduct your own research into bills forwarded on behalf of Vets.

You might be surprised to learn the "Hawks" (read Republicans) are great about sending you to war and giving you a 3.2 percent pay raise, but not so good when it comes time for you to come home.

[DougP]

Historically Hawks have been known, at times, to campaign on promises of taking us out or war like Nixon's "new leadership will end the war" campaign or Ike's campaign promise of ending the war in Korea. Sometimes the Hawks campaign like doves guaranteeing a humble foreign policy with no nation building like Bush did in 2000. Regardless of political affiliation we've seen time and time again a president's willingness to send young ones off to war regardless of what the original promise was.

LBJ: "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves."

[danielwagner]

1. I retired ten years ago.
2. My morality and my integrity are intact.
3. Conduct your own research into bills forwarded on behalf of Vets.

You might be surprised to learn the "Hawks" (read Republicans) are great about sending you to war and giving you a 3.2 percent pay raise, but not so good when it comes time for you to come home.

1.) Thank you for your service to our country.
2.) A peaceful balance.
3.) This statement reminiscent of Go tell it to the Marines?

A poor history indeed. Do Democrats do you justice? May I suggest you consider donating to the Paralyzed Veterans of America and make it specific to the vet. Mentioned the vet because they help other less fortunate folks who are not veterans, only in need.

[vvloc]

1.) A poor history indeed. Do Democrats do you justice? May I suggest you consider donating to the Paralyzed Veterans of America and make it specific to the vet. Mentioned the vet because they help other less fortunate folks who are not veterans, only in need.

THREE vet organizations rate john mcCain:

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=OnyEMLXvgV8

Should we start a thread called FACTS Daniel would prefer to ignore.

[Oki alumni]

1.) Thank you for your service to our country.
2.) A peaceful balance.
3.) This statement reminiscent of Go tell it to the Marines?

A poor history indeed. Do Democrats do you justice? May I suggest you consider donating to the Paralyzed Veterans of America and make it specific to the vet. Mentioned the vet because they help other less fortunate folks who are not veterans, only in need.

LOL, the Republicans are really grasping for any straw in the wind, aren't they? It tickles the hell out of me to see the lame arse excuses given in any particular case to prove "it's not OUR fault". I'm incensed however that emails are STILL circulating that can be called nothing but shit...slandering Obama, and making wildly false accusations against him and the Democratic Party. I've a retired Navy CWO4 type friend, who "conveniently forgot" that he's got a $50 bet with me on the winner of the election. FREE MONEY FOR ME!

-Oki Alumni:old:

[danielwagner]

THREE vet organizations rate john mcCain:

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=OnyEMLXvgV8

Should we start a thread called FACTS Daniel would prefer to ignore.

Keep this up vvloc and I just might have to make you a hero of mine. Dude (noticed Pchan called you a him in a previous post, my humble apology if I'm in err) I am digging your sense of humor.

I did watch your video post the first time I came across it. Us (maybe just me) dim-witted folks have to drink it all in before a final evaluation can be considered. Along those lines...gotta go, have a date with a nice Toasted Head Merlot (domestic-relatively inexpensive and quite dry). Cheers, my left leaning American colleague.

[danielwagner]

LOL, the Republicans are really grasping for any straw in the wind, aren't they? It tickles the hell out of me to see the lame arse excuses given in any particular case to prove "it's not OUR fault". I'm incensed however that emails are STILL circulating that can be called nothing but shit...slandering Obama, and making wildly false accusations against him and the Democratic Party. I've a retired Navy CWO4 type friend, who "conveniently forgot" that he's got a $50 bet with me on the winner of the election. FREE MONEY FOR ME!

-Oki Alumni:old:

Darn! Almost outta here. Oki this fellow is not the answer our country needs and quit enticing those poor retired servicemen with vices like gambling.

[vvloc]

Keep this up vvloc and I just might have to make you a hero of mine. Dude (noticed Pchan called you a him in a previous post, my humble apology if I'm in err) I am digging your sense of humor.

I did watch your video post the first time I came across it. Us (maybe just me) dim-witted folks have to drink it all in before a final evaluation can be considered. Along those lines...gotta go, have a date with a nice Toasted Head Merlot (domestic-relatively inexpensive and quite dry). Cheers, my left leaning American colleague.

One thing I HAVE TO admit is that you are a most mannerly and civil adversary - I really must admire you for that, as I am fully aware that I am not BY ANY MEANS the easiest person when it comes to debating my core beliefs and values.

I've been known "on occasion" to get a "little testy:rolleyes:!!!"

[Asshat]

One thing I HAVE TO admit is that you are a most mannerly and civil adversary - I really must admire you for that, as I am fully aware that I am not BY ANY MEANS the easiest person when it comes to debating my core beliefs and values.

I've been known "on occasion" to get a "little testy:rolleyes:!!!"

You don't get "passive aggressive" vibes? lol...

Maybe he is one of those non-neanderthal conservatives! I don't trust him. Any second now, he'll bust out a domestic beer, one of his 15 weapons (for home defense only) and freak out on all of us grass smoking, green tea drinking closet homosexuals!