If there were less Americans around, would you behave the same way?

[ja_Patriot]

*
The US military presence in a country in French West Africa where I found myself for several years was a marine guard detachment providing security for the US embassy & diplomatic residence(s).

Fridays were TGIF at the marine house hosted by the gunny and the international expat community usually joined in the fun. BX was by mail order. There would be a small commissary in places like Abidjan. There weren’t too many Americans around.

Your own version of a foreign language, French in this case, was never criticized, and you had to speak the language (read and write to an extent) to cope with the routine run of things.

You followed the laws, traditions and customs of the land, including the rules of the road, car registration, visa formalities and general decorum with respect to local people and expats.

You learned about nuances. Being married to a local or a French citizen would be a plus, but not such a big deal. The “Froggies” tend to stick with one another; same with the Anglos and the Yanks. You somehow get used to being called “patron” or “masta”.

Have any of you experienced any of that?

Mais, ce n’etait pas tres terrible, n’est-ce pas?

---

Well, let’s say Okinawa were not as Americanized but just a typical southern Japanese city like Miyazaki where you won’t find too many people of your nationality, not necessarily American, - how would you conduct yourself?

Would you make a more concerted effort to at least speak Japanese and get more involved with the local people and culture?

Would you get by without or with little American food products or American brands? Would you change your eating habits and adapt to more local fare?

Would you have a quieter demeanor? Or rant just as much for trivial things such as the annoying way people drive in Okinawa (believe me, they’re not the worst) and how MPs get involved with keeping peace and order?

Would you adjust your behavior?

Or would you carry on in the same way you’re handling things now?

Would you rather just stay back home in your comfort zone?

Or Oki for you is just a station and you don’t have any control on how to determine your own lifestyle and attitude. You just go with the flow.

I think your answer could be key to your personal enjoyment of what the Okinawa experience and its people can really offer and mean to you, whether you’re passing through or here to stay a little longer.

As they say in Okinawa, “Nankuru nai sa!”


#

[dk]

I've lived down in Naha. It's not the outskirts of Japan, but where I lived in Naha I didn't know another foreigner who lived within a few miles of me. Now that I live in Urasoe City, I still don't know any foreigners who live near me. Back then, I made a habit to smile and be courteous to my neighbors. Here, I do the same. I try to be as outgoing as I can, but for the most part, I haven't had much success in making local friends. It might be that apartment buildings just aren't the place to spark friendships, or it might just be that I fail at making Okinawan friends. I've never had a problem making friends with mainlanders. It's only here that I've had problems with it. I'm at the point where I've stopped trying lately and have finally just resolved to hang out where the Americans hang out if I want to be social.

I have not adjusted my behavior much in any case. I work with Americans on a daily basis, but four years back I worked completely with locals on a daily basis. I haven't changed much aside from the fact that I'm not as young anymore and I don't have the freetime anymore that my old job had.

With me, there is no comfort zone. I'd much rather make local friends than military friends to be honest as local friends will be here more than for the next two years, but I take what I can get.

I love the island. I love the culture, but as far as the people are concerned, I have a better time when I'm around mainlanders for the most part. I've met quite a few friendly locals, but I have honestly met the greatest people in Tokyo. I guess their style of living just better suits me. This island makes me sleepy and slow.

No, I'm not complaining. I'm stating fact at least as far as I've experienced it over the past two decades. Don't take offense to this.

Oh, PS, to answer your question about the language, if I suddenly moved to mainland Japan, I would put in a much bigger effort to learn Japanese. I speak it decently to an extent and could positively learn to be fluent if I had the urge and the free time, but over here, I just don't feel the need.

[Muku]

Interesting topic.....
Personally in the town I live in now there are currently 3 Americans including me that are permanent residents. There are a couple of JET's and a couple of Mormon's as well that I know of. We "perms" know each other and have talked but do not go out of our way to socialize with each other, but we all are on friendly terms when we see each other but it isnt like we are neighbors either.

Would you make a more concerted effort to at least speak Japanese and get more involved with the local people and culture?

I did but not because of where I was living. It was for employment reasons that I needed Japanese. I got heavily involved in the local community thanks to the local PTA.

Would you get by without or with little American food products or American brands? Would you change your eating habits and adapt to more local fare?
Umm what are American brands....I seem to have forgotten.:old: :rolleyes:

Would you have a quieter demeanor? Or rant just as much for trivial things such as the annoying way people drive in Okinawa (believe me, they’re not the worst) and how MPs get involved with keeping peace and order?

This took time, because of my circumstances and living situation at the time I often got PO'd about a lot of little crap. But now I have mellowed to the point that I honestly can not remember the last time I honked my car horn. At one time I actually considered installing a Mack Truck air horn on my car just to scare the crap out of the people around me. (Damn we need an "evil" smilie here)

Would you adjust your behavior?
I would say I adapted. Probably semantics but adjusting means that I still would be keeping many of the traits I had before. Most of those traits are long gone.

Or would you carry on in the same way you’re handling things now?
Refer to my previous answer please.

Or Oki for you is just a station and you don’t have any control on how to determine your own lifestyle and attitude. You just go with the flow.

Only if I allowed it. I think that over the years I have created my own lifestlye and attitudes about many things. Age also plays a factor as well imo.

As they say in Okinawa, “Nankuru nai sa!”

Or in French as you know C`EST LA VIE :D or Should I say Que Sera Sera!
Oh and btw that is about the extent of my French:rolleyes:

[DougP]

I guess I would probably act the same as I do now. I'm rarely around Americans at all even though I live in Chatan. Except for at home the majority of my conversations are in Japanese. I've been making an effort since the day I got here to learn the language and don't plan on stopping even if my fellow Americans leave this island. I don't feel at all influenced by the presence of the military here. Really unless I start working on base again I don't see their presence big or small having any real affect on my life.

It is always nice to sit down and talk with my American friends in my native language. Funny thing is usually once there is one or more Okinawan friends present we all switch to speaking Japanese. Its pretty funny when two Americans are engaging in a conversation in Japanese. :)

[Fonze]

I would think you'd have to. And not by choice.

[ja_Patriot]

dk,

You’re right. Local folks aren’t as gregarious or outgoing as Tokyo or Osaka types. Take my nephews and nieces (in law). Six are about the same age. 3 who studied in Tokyo and thereabouts initiate conversations and even try to speak and learn English. The other 3 who studied locally are polite but reserved, and only answer questions when asked.

Japanese never really write letters and meet family only so many times a year (obon & bounen-kai). No birthday celebrations, no anniversaries.

My inter-action with bros-in-law is limited to the occasional round of golf and an evening out at the izakaya. I probably speak more with my neighbors from Tokyo and business friends.

As for language, you’re right again. I guess it’s part of the experience of where you’re at, and proficiency does come with necessity.

I’ve been married for so many years to my Japanese wife and only now do I find it necessary to master the language since we’re actually in Japan. In the meantime, I learned several European languages out of necessity.


#

[ja_Patriot]

Muku,

Same here. I know of gai-jin folks in the neighborhood but will I ever go fishing or golf with them? Besides, not too many people can stand the occasional cigar.

As for language, believe it or not, I envy your command of it. Should have started to be serious about learning my wife's maternal language a long time ago.

American brands? Well, I like McDonald's fries. Always liked them. But I prefer my own juicy hamburger, for example.

Many are adapted as Japanese brands, i.e. Knorr, Hunts, Hornel. But I've never felt the need to go looking for specific American brands.

The first couple of months I did toot the horn. Can't really blame someone who's spent a long time in Miami where people don't use directional blinkers, among other things.

My wife would give me the "Where's the fire, what's the hurry look". So the old dog learns.


#

[ja_Patriot]

Doug P,

Same as you, I try to live a Japanese life. I'd be as comfortable with Japanese as with Americans or Frenchmen or Spaniards or Aussies or Thais or Filipinos for that matter.

I actually have fun doing it. I tell my wife "I have to teach them how to say, "Naha City" and "not Naha Shi-ty" and it's not "Shi-ty Bank" either. It's "CO 2" not "Shi-Oh-tsu". My wife gives me the old "When in Rome do as the Romans do" line, when I was trying to teach her English.


#

[Muku]

Besides, not too many people can stand the occasionally cigar.

I can:D...

We are really going to need to do a JU meet. Maybe one for the "south" and one for the "north".

I'll bet the south people have more fun!:D Particularly since dk will have to buy the first round.

[Fonze]

what do you consider north?

[OCanadaOurHomeAndNativeLand]

My experience differs a little from some of the other posters. I lived on the "mainland" for many years, and find locals here tend to be more friendly and relaxed than their Naicha counterparts. I spend almost all my working and free time with locals, and rarely miss the foreign element. Occasional get-togethers are great, but making a foreigner bar or a group of foreign friends the focus of my existence here is not something I want to do.

I'm pretty much the same me as I was when I lived "back in The Old Country", but I eat healthier and bow into the telephone. :)

[Muku]

what do you consider north?
Anything "north" of Urasoe.

[dk]

I can:D...

We are really going to need to do a JU meet. Maybe one for the "south" and one for the "north".

I'll bet the south people have more fun!:D Particularly since dk will have to buy the first round.
Can you imagine the price of that first round if all 400 of our members showed up? :dead:

I have a cigar waiting. Let me know when you guys want to do this. But you're paying for your own drinks (and mine)!!

[Mad Hatter]

Me Too!!! Me Too!!!!

[Muku]

Me Too!!! Me Too!!!!
North or South?

[Mad Hatter]

if you are buying the drinks... I'll be there!!! There as in anywhere!! ;)

[Mad Hatter]

doesn't really matter to me... I'm in the middle of this rock anyways/

[Muku]

doesn't really matter to me... I'm in the middle of this rock anyways/


Well to stop hijacking this thread read the following.....

JU Meet North or South! (http://www.japanupdate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23296#post23296)

[Mad Hatter]

look at my post count... I couldn't hijack a tricycle from a three year old, I'm just posting short messages cause my brain can't work that fast... plus I'm training with my new air guitar

[ja_Patriot]

eelecurb,

I agree. Oki is more relaxed.

Tell you the truth, if my wife were from Tokyo or Osaka and not from Okinawa, we'd never even think about living in Japan.

For 2 reasons: the commute and the crowd. Have lived too long in NYC and Miami to have to deal with subways and gridlocks. Not to mention when you're in the big metro areas, people tend to be entirely impersonal, even if the place were chuck a block full of Americans.


#

[DocTurtle]

I definitly think that I would make more of an effort to learn the language. I don't think I would change the way I act though. I'm pretty soft spoken as is and not much of an attention getting as most American's seem to be. I normally find myself going out of my way to be courtious with them so I think I'm doing a good job. *pats self on back while sitting on high horse*
I love trying other brands and stuff too. That's half the fun of living in other countries! :)

[Asshat]

Okinawa is a melting pot. In the last three decades, I have seen it change from a singular ethnic island to a tourist destination.

The Okinawa experience is....not what it was. It is as cosmopolitan as Tokyo, Seoul or Singapore.

And the answer to your question is...no. I would not and have not changed-except for the gray hair and a singular bad taste from those who would assume Okinawa is still Okinawa.

[ja_Patriot]

Uminchu,

With over 5 million tourist arrivals annually, Okinawa is undoubtedly a premier tourist destination.

It is somewhat cosmopolitan, but equating it to Singapore or Seoul or Tokyo? IMHO, not even close.

Let me mention just one place. Have you been to Singapore lately and visited the Marina Center area? In that one area alone you have literally hundreds of places to eat, shop & visit with people speaking English, Chinese, Malaysian, Hindu, Japanese, Tagalog, German, French, etc.

You never know who really is Singaporean. A real melting pot. It’s like acquiring the NYC attitude. Act like you’re a New Yorker and you become one. No one would know the better.

Now, in Okinawa, anyone not local simply stands out.

Oh, my wife tells me of structural changes, i.e. that much of Itoman and this and that place is land reclaimed from the sea, towns like Haebaru were farmlands, Yu Rail is new, so many other new things. But they still call Koza “Koza”, her old elementary and high schools are still in the same spot – essentially the soul of the place hasn’t really changed.

For myself, I take and love it for what it is.

As for gray hair, well too bad we can’t “learn” about getting darker hair back, in the same way that we can still acquire the ability to speak the Japanese language.

At a certain stage in life, each of us are simply are what we are. No change necessary. And I respect that.


#

[Asshat]

Now, in Okinawa, anyone not local simply stands out.

I have to disagree with you there. The physical differences between an Okinawa, a Japanese, a Phillipino, a Chinese, and a Chamorro can be miniscule, and most Americans can not tell the difference. (Excuse the broad brush here, because I have friends and family from all of those groups)

30 years ago, you never told an Okinawan they were Japanese. The soul is vastly different. Who is speaking hogen now? Very few people under 35.

I can easily determine who is Singaporean and who is a Honky (Hong Kong) by their accent, however the melting pot aspect is more severe than this island.

But compared to 30 years ago, this island is very cosmo and very different in much more than the hundreds of acres added by pouring dirt on reefs.

So, if I have lived here for 30 years, does that make me more local than the Chinese man who immigrated here ten years ago?

Mennen for men works on gray hair...if you can stand the lye. ;)

[Muku]

Now, in Okinawa, anyone not local simply stands out.

Depends upon who you classify as a local in my opinion. There are many 2nd and 3rd generation Okinawan's that have come back to live in Okinawa. They are not local and they dont stick out either.

How about the people that live here that came from mainland? They dont stickout either. Neither do the large numbers of Chinese and Taiwanese either.

I think it depends largely too upon where one lives here. In the area around the bases including Yomitan I dont dont think a foreigner would stick out.

But down farther south, even in Naha, then yes I would agree that "we" stick out, as well as up north too.

I was going to write more here but thought better of it as I think that the material belongs in a separate post on a different thread.

[Jrocka83]

*
The US military presence in a country in French West Africa where I found myself for several years was a marine guard detachment providing security for the US embassy & diplomatic residence(s).

Fridays were TGIF at the marine house hosted by the gunny and the international expat community usually joined in the fun. BX was by mail order. There would be a small commissary in places like Abidjan. There weren’t too many Americans around.

Your own version of a foreign language, French in this case, was never criticized, and you had to speak the language (read and write to an extent) to cope with the routine run of things.

You followed the laws, traditions and customs of the land, including the rules of the road, car registration, visa formalities and general decorum with respect to local people and expats.

You learned about nuances. Being married to a local or a French citizen would be a plus, but not such a big deal. The “Froggies” tend to stick with one another; same with the Anglos and the Yanks. You somehow get used to being called “patron” or “masta”.

Have any of you experienced any of that?

Mais, ce n’etait pas tres terrible, n’est-ce pas?

---

Well, let’s say Okinawa were not as Americanized but just a typical southern Japanese city like Miyazaki where you won’t find too many people of your nationality, not necessarily American, - how would you conduct yourself?

Would you make a more concerted effort to at least speak Japanese and get more involved with the local people and culture?

Would you get by without or with little American food products or American brands? Would you change your eating habits and adapt to more local fare?

Would you have a quieter demeanor? Or rant just as much for trivial things such as the annoying way people drive in Okinawa (believe me, they’re not the worst) and how MPs get involved with keeping peace and order?

Would you adjust your behavior?

Or would you carry on in the same way you’re handling things now?

Would you rather just stay back home in your comfort zone?

Or Oki for you is just a station and you don’t have any control on how to determine your own lifestyle and attitude. You just go with the flow.

I think your answer could be key to your personal enjoyment of what the Okinawa experience and its people can really offer and mean to you, whether you’re passing through or here to stay a little longer.

As they say in Okinawa, “Nankuru nai sa!”


#


Life would be much sweater in Okinawa with less Americans. Then again, Okinawa would be worse off economy wise... Becuase, of the large millitary presence, I feel more of a unwanted pest whenever I go to certain places, like the Jusco or other large community areas.. Oh, I'm just another fricking millitary guy trying to score. Is the attitude conveyed upon the faces as I pass them.. But little do they know who each and everyone one of us is.. We all have to live with the sterotype, that the preveous asses left us with.

I did live in Sasebo Japan for 4 years, on a Navy Base. Much smaller millitary presence. I would spend my weakends in Fukuoka Japan. Not many americans would be there at any given time. I had some international friends, and a large group of nihonjin friends. I had a lot of fun, diping in with the Japanese culture. Being a rare nationality, people apreciated me and would be strikenly interested in american culture.. So my friendships grew large there. Here in Okinawa it seems hard to make good friends with the locals... There is defenatley to much millitary presence in Okinawa.. not to smart, it makes Okinawa a big target for our enemies as well. I think they should open our post in the phillipines again, send Kadena and half of the marines there. The pinoys love us anyways $$$, and Marines and Millitary guys love fresh pinoys, and women love the cheap shoping.....

Lyndon

[ja_Patriot]

All good points.

-----

Uminchu, Interesting. I wouldn't know a Singaporean Chinese accent from a Honky's if it bit me on the leg, that's for sure.

And, yes, Okinawa succumbed to progress like the rest of the world.

No doubt Oki is more cosmo today than 30 years ago. But the point was, at least IMHO, compared to NYC & Singapore for example, it's simply not in the same league.

And thanks but no thanks for the Mennen advice. My hair is a happy camper. And it's really not that gray.

-----

Muku, no one really stands out, except if you're Caucasian, I guess. If you look like a local, you're a local.

Until you try to do certain activities, which may be anything from trying to run a business (see below) or buying rice at San-A and you don't know what a (funeral) "waribiki-ken" is. (Happened to me, but that's another story.)

If you've been here a number of years as you personally have, you do cope with life as a local for all intents and purposes.

-----

jrocka83. Funny, your post reminds me of one of my favorite Jack Nicholson lines:

"...Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall..."

-----

Let me add a few points.

You spend a few days in New York or Singapore, you're a local to most people. You speak haltingly with an accent, no one cares.

Hacks (cab drivers) in NYC generally speak limited English, being from the middle east, eastern Europe or Haiti. Korean grocers and Greek kiosk owners don't speak good English.

Those are just 3 quick examples. How hard of a time do you think a foreigner will have in Okinawa trying to operate a taxi, open a grocery or a newstand or any small time business? Let alone without speaking much Japanese.


#

[Muku]

Muku, no one really stands out, except if you're Caucasian, I guess. If you look like a local, you're a local.

Ummm I might also include people that are black as well:D We all kind of stick out depending on where we live. And I can seriously back that one up as well.:D

[ja_Patriot]

You're right. I forgot I'm color blind. Let me adjust that. If you're white or black and are over 6 ft., you'll stand out. If you talk loudly, you'll stand out - unless you're a bunch of high school girls.

On a side note since I think you'll get what I mean. After I figured out what "waribashi" was and started building up confidence, I was hit with the famous "waribiki" at the cashier's. I had a wtf look and the old woman next in line was smiling. I paid and got out of there.

Told my wife "Next time you go shopping for rice". She said something like you dummy, we have 2 of those from the last 2 funerals. How's a guy supposed to know that?

Now funerals, there are special envelops for 3, 7, 40 day memorial services for everyone and his uncle and you need to show your face, - but that's another story.


#

[Cathleen_38]

exactly Doc. that's it in a nutshell for me too.

[hankypanky]

had a conversation last nite at the bar about hogan. kids now feel uncomfortable learning or speaking it. My wife doesn't even teach the kids as i guess most mothers are. I bet in 20-30 years it will only be in the history books.

[Mad Hatter]

No respect these days...

But really, I wonder why that is... are they ashamed?

[hankypanky]

alot of the youth go up to japan to work after high school because the pay is much better. My wife is prime example. She was working in an office in Tokyo and cut her finger, she immediately said "Aga" which is itai ( ouch ) in hogan. they started laughing at her.

Japanese still think okinawa is a primate state of natives that are not deserving of the japanese. They consider Okinawans of being lazy and partying too much. I guess that is why the live the longest with no stress!

Most of the reason is Okinawan's are japanese by force, not of blood. So there is no respect between Ryuku and Japan. :old:

[P_chan]

My wife always says Aga! Hell, she even has me saying it!

[hankypanky]

Right On! Me Too. I don't think i could say ouch slammín' my finger in a car door:cursing:

[Sex Wax]

I like to fart around Americans, because they appreciate the humor behind it.