Would you support public executions?

[TheNoNamedOne]

Do you think the public has a right to view executions of criminals that committed crimes against them i.e. society? This is not a thread to debate for or against the death penalty. As far as this thread is concerned, that issue is settled. This topic is about whether the death penalty should be carried out in public for a large viewing audience of society.

Of course we know that they do that in some places like Iran, and I think in Afghanistan it was also done when the Taliban were in control. I also think there are a few other countries that do executions in public.

Is it any more moral/immoral to do executions in a private room with only a few witnesses rather than a large stadium? What if an atmosphere of quiet and no jeering could be had in such an execution -- would that make it more permissable?

What do you think? Would you like to see murderers, murder child rapists, serial killers, the most terrible dredges of the crminal world executed in public, or would you like it all to go on behind doors to protect sensitive people or placate our sensibililities that execution is not so bad? After all, out of sight, out of mind.

[socalheart]

I have no interest in watching a death penalty being carried out. I think the wronged, family and friends of the wronged, and family of the sentenced should be allowed to watch though. I tend to close my eyes when watching it in a movie or TV show.

[themadscientist]

no. People would be desensitized to it rather quickly and it would serve no good purpose other than to satisfy people's morbid curiosity.

[atb35]

I have thought for years that we should have a weekly TV show to show not only executions, but other punishments. They would need to change how they perform the executions though...lethal injection is stupid...those lowlifes dont deserve to die that nicely.

A .38 round cost about 12 cents, far cheaper and much more appropriate IMO. On shot directly in the heart, they will be dead in seconds. I would have no problem with public hangings as well, that is more fitting then lethal injection. If they would ever do this, people might actually think twice about committing crimes. The only deterrent there is now to committing murder is sitting in jail getting three meals a day, watching tv, reading any book you want and working out several hours a day....wow, hard life. Some states have the death penalty, but that is 8-10 years down the road...MAYBE.

Yes, I would love to see public executions.

[Fonze]

I would not mind if they did this as long as the system was fair to everyone before the execution. I wouldn't personally protest for them or against them but something new to this generation might help control the knuckle heads of the country.

[Muku]

I have thought for years that we should have a weekly TV show to show not only executions, but other punishments. They would need to change how they perform the executions though...lethal injection is stupid...those lowlifes dont deserve to die that nicely.

A .38 round cost about 12 cents, far cheaper and much more appropriate IMO. On shot directly in the heart, they will be dead in seconds. I would have no problem with public hangings as well, that is more fitting then lethal injection. If they would ever do this, people might actually think twice about committing crimes. The only deterrent there is now to committing murder is sitting in jail getting three meals a day, watching tv, reading any book you want and working out several hours a day....wow, hard life. Some states have the death penalty, but that is 8-10 years down the road...MAYBE.

Yes, I would love to see public executions.

It wasnt so far back in American history that executions were public.

Personally I think it would be great. It would be a great way to teach people about the finality of their actions. Many people go through life living in a fantasy and never seeing what it is like to watch a person die. It isnt fun nor is it pretty, depending on the method of death.

I agree with you about people hopefully thinking twice before committing a crime that would have the death penalty.

I think I wrote this somewhere here before, it wasnt too long ago in the history of mankind that all crimes were punishable by death. Great deterent if you ask me.

Steal something from the store, get hung in the town square. How many people do you think would steal anymore? Oh I forgot we are supposed to be kinder and gentler people and work at rehabiliting people that terrorize the public. :rolleyes:

[themadscientist]

It would not deter. It would as a I said satisfy morbid curiosity, the zeal you have is what I mean. Sentences fully applied in all cases would be about as much deterent as one could hope for. Making prisons more like punishment would go a long way towards deterent. No weights, no TV, only educational books to read, chaingangs, earned yard time etc.

[Muku]

It would not deter. It would as a I said satisfy morbid curiosity, the zeal you have is what I mean. Sentences fully applied in all cases would be about as much deterent as one could hope for. Making prisons more like punishment would go a long way towards deterent. No weights, no TV, only educational books to read, chaingangs, earned yard time etc.

The problem however is that people now have "rights". I think that besides loss of freedom other "rights" should be revoked as well. In my opinion being a citizen of the USA is a privilege and not a "right", and with that privilege comes responsibility, and one loses that privilege to their "rights" when they commit a crime.

There are not enough jails in America to hold the prisoners in for the length of their sentence. While I agree in theory that is justice, a 5 year term means 5 years, overcrowding in reality is a serious problem.

If I read you right here you are saying make jail hell right? Hell in a legal way, not physical torture or anything like that but hell in the way that people would never want to return.

Dont get me wrong I am not for using the death penalty for all crimes, I just made that comment to show that since society has deemed other forms of punishment for certain crimes means a prison sentence rather than death, crime has exploded.

Edited to add a comment Within the past couple of weeks I heard something on the radio that truly bothered me about the crimminal justice system in the United States. Currently there are more black people in prison than go to college in the US right now. I AM NOT SUGGESTING IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM THAT THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR CRIMES. I am just making a comment aout our society in general.

I know that has nothing directly to do with the topic at hand, but my point is that to me at least the system overall is screwed up top to bottom starting with education and a society that makes or puts people in the situation that they turn to crime. There seems to be no fear of getting caught and thrown in jail, the detterents that are in place mean nothing.

This issue is also not just for black Americans but all Americans as well. Crimes are committed all over the spectrum of society, regardless of color and social standing.

[Mad Hatter]

Hells YEAH!!! I would love to see a good old hangin! I think that it would teach others that think about commenting the same crime a valuable lesson. Screw the prison system for people serving life... I bet in some cases that the life that they have on the inside is better than the one they had on the out side... Plus that:s my money they are wasting!!!

[themadscientist]

I have actually moved away from support of the death penalty.
Yes prison should be unpleasant. Not torture of course but no creature comforts. The idea is to make it a place you want to leave. Hypothetical, I am placed in charge of the prisons and we assume I get what I request without resistance.

Basic prison cell will be standardized
4' x 8' x 8' dimensions, concrete walls, ceiling and floor.

wall mounted flip up cot and flip down table, and a steel toilet and sink.

All personal possessions must fit in a plastic footlocker 24" x 12" x 12" not to include educational materials like textbooks.

No photos may be left displayed, they must be put away in the morning.

No reading material is allowed except prison-supplied educational material, no audio or visual formats, only print material.

Uniforms will be simple and have only a single breast pocket and designed in such a way that concealed weapons would be readily visable. They would also be pink.

Prisoners would be allowed to sleep from lights out at 9pm until revelie at 5am when the very bright prison lights turn on.

Prisoners will have one hour to clean and prepare their cell. They will make and stow their bunk and put away all personal possessions.

at 6am the cell doors open and they will stand outside their cell for visual inspection by guards then they will be marched to breakfast. breakfast runs from 6:30-7:00

Breakfast, in fact all meals, will be be the minimum daily requirement for an average human. It will not taste particularly good nor will it be bad, it will keep you alive. There will be no utensils any solid food will be in bite-sized portions and a peice of bread will be used to scoop up food. The drinks will be water, and water, if you don't like that there is always water. Trays will be made of a flexible plastic that can not easily be used as a weapon and tables and benches will be bolted down. Socialization will be allowed but closely monitored.

Now we have a choice for our prisoners, this is where they get rehabilitated at best, serve their time in full at worst. If they choose not to participate in the programs available to them they return to their cell until lunch. At that time they will need to prepare their cell and submit to inspection as before and march to lunch, dinner the same.

At 12 the prisoners will be reassembled for lunch

Those that choose to take advantage of it will be evaluated. Any prisoners with substance abuse problems, mental conditions will be provided councilers to aid them on the road to getting better. Prisoners otherwise ready to go will be provided access to counsilers who can help them determine the best route for them to become a sucess in their life. It must be individual case by case, no two people have the same needs. A full battery of vocational programs, GED attainment and career counceling to those that demonstrate the truly want to better themselves. These activities will occur in either the first or second half of the day. The other half of the day will be occupied working in some prison industry. This will ensure that the prisoners are earning the benefits theya are being provided and the products produced will help pay for some costs.

They prisoners will be assembled for moement to lunch at 12:00 Lunch runs from 12:30 to 1PM.

The prisoners will cease work or classes at 5PM and be assembled for dinner which will run from 5:30 to 6:00

Prisoners will return to their cells and be released to go to shower in small groups and in a random fashion not block by block. They have the time from roughly 6:30 until lights out at 9:00 to take a quick shower and do their coursework if they are trying to learn.

Yard time is a privelage not a right. Prisons will not have windows of any kind in detainee areas. Sunlight will be a precious commodity. If a prisoner behaves they will be allowed in the yard for a few hours two times a week in small groups again randomly selected. Prisoners who act incorrectly will not get yard time. penalties for any infraction will be severe, respect for the guards will be given, instructions followed without question. Of course staff will need to be well paid and well trained to keep them from being a problem, esprit de corp and professionalism will be expected from the guards, they must lead by example. Solitary as in a cell with no lights 24 hours a day for a determined amount of time will be used.

Prison should be a place to rehabilitate and at the same time a place you never want to return to.

[ryukyuboi]

I do not support public executions. I haven't been convinced that something really beneficial for society is created by having them.

[DougP]

I do not support public executions. I haven't been convinced that something really beneficial for society is created by having them.

Not saying I do support them but the same could be said about how nothing beneficial for society has been created by not having them. Still have increasing murders and crime.

[Asshat]

F&*^k NO! I don't support any executions.

[Muku]

F&*^k NO! I don't support any executions.
Ok then what would you do instead?

I could ask you what about this case or this person or that, but instead I would appreciate your explaining why you are so against capitol punishment.

[Asshat]

Ok then what would you do instead?

I could ask you what about this case or this person or that, but instead I would appreciate your explaining why you are so against capitol punishment.

Thank you for the polite way in which you posed your question to me. Americans have been wrongly executed. That info is fairly easy to find.

But my posture is more of a moral value. I simply believe no person, and especially no agent of the people has the right to take the life of another.

It has long been proven that allowing capital punishment does nothing to deter someone from killing another. America executes more people than any other first world country, yet sports one of the highest murder rates per capita. I could go on here.

As an aside, I am not so naive to belive that if I were facing the murderer of someone I loved in a court room, that my morality on this issue would be sorely tested. To that end, I reserve the right to change my opinion, and do not judge those who have experienced such loss their feelings in this matter.

[DougP]

Let me ask the question people often don't want to answer. Let's say in a perfect world that 100% of all people who were convicted of murder were in fact guilty of the charge. Then would those who are against capitol punishment now be for it? Would it be ok to reciprocate? If someone murdered my children in front of me and were able to escape or enter police custody before I could kill them myself.(and I would) Should they be allowed to live and have there meals payed for by tax payers for the rest of their lives?

[Muku]

First off I must apologize for the typo...I wrote capitol instead of capital.
My fingers got ahead of me:o


But my posture is more of a moral value. I simply believe no person, and especially no agent of the people has the right to take the life of another
I can respect and appreciate your opinion in this matter. It is not one that I take lightly either. I have strong beliefs about right to life issues, however I personally have faced some issues during my life that shook my beliefs in the greater good of mankind.

I apologize but I am not going to discuss them here. The only thing I can say is that morally it is a dilemma that I must face each and every time that a case arises where the death penalty is imposed.

In some cases I can not see the benefit of allowing a person to live after so many have died, due to the actions or directions of that particular persons actions. I also can not see the benefit in attempting to rehabilitate those that have no desire to make a contribution to society.

It has long been proven that allowing capital punishment does nothing to deter someone from killing another. America executes more people than any other first world country, yet sports one of the highest murder rates per capita. I could go on here.

How true and America is also the only first world country with a prison population of over 1 million people as well. (That is if memory serves me correctly). There are very few deterents in place that people fear that stop them from committing crimes. Justice is not swift, and justice is not final in the USA.

As an aside, I am not so naive to belive that if I were facing the murderer of someone I loved in a court room, that my morality on this issue would be sorely tested. To that end, I reserve the right to change my opinion, and do not judge those who have experienced such loss their feelings in this matter.
And I pray that you are never faced with a situation that you have to change or are forced to decide which path to take.

Americans have been wrongly executed. That info is fairly easy to find.

That is true as well, and not just in America but other countries as well. No system is perfect, and if one values the life of an individual more than the need of society to seek justice, excuse me, revenge for a crime, than you are most correct in your views that there is no situation where the death penalty is justified.

However there are crimminals and cases that are just so horrid that defy explaination, that to me at least, that warrant the death penalty to ensure that these people will no longer be a menace to society. Currently there is no garuntee that those convicted of these henious crimes will forever sit behind prison walls. There always exists the possiblity of parole or break out from the prison.

To the people that are victims and their families there will always be a fear of retribution or revenge as long as the person that committed the crime lives. That is a very powerful motivation for the death penalty. Continually living in fear that the killer could someday come back.

Death has a finality to it that brings closure to all sides.

[DougP]

damn I guess I made the same typo :D

[Asshat]

In some cases I can not see the benefit of allowing a person to live after so many have died, due to the actions or directions of that particular persons actions.

Death has a finality to it that brings closure to all sides.

Thanks again Muku. Here is a bit of paradoxial thought on this though.

When I visited the Viet Nam memorial...I was aghast. Had a few decision makers (I am old enough to remember) been standing next to that wall, I might have done or said something very immoral.

Why do we allow rich, grey haired men to send our sons to war for a suspicious cause, watch hundreds come home in flag-draped boxes and tell ourselves it was just, while ignoring the insane as they squeak by our social systems, products of their (an our) own special brand of society and sentance them to death?

An over-simplification I realize. Yet, the penalty should be the same. What mitigating factor did Nixon have for stalling the Paris peace talks, other than to be the candidate who pulled it off?-LBJ watching the process wrenched from him.

Yet we allow our streets to be populated with the homeless, the transient, the insane right outside the doors of that hallowed building, arrest, convict, incarcerate, and strike three you're out.

Who then truely has the right to take or demand of a life? My government has no more right to demand it from me than the crackhead on the street. Yet we are on the cusp of the draft.

[Muku]

Why do we allow rich, grey haired men to send our sons to war for a suspicious cause, watch hundreds come home in flag-draped boxes and tell ourselves it was just, while ignoring the insane as they squeak by our social systems, products of their (an our) own special brand of society and sentance them to death?

Truly a dilemma, one I do not have an answer for either. I do not envy those that are in the position that have to make the decisions that put people in the military in harms way. I can see the coorelation with capital punishment yet they are so different as well.

Yet we allow our streets to be populated with the homeless, the transient, the insane right outside the doors of that hallowed building, arrest, convict, incarcerate, and strike three you're out.


This is a problem with society in the US, yet are people that commit crimes that come from situations like this free from being responsible for their actions? I remember the case of Reginald(sp?) Denny during the Rodney King riots in LA. Because of his willingness to forgive those that assualted him, I think played a great part in the defendants being given parole. Yet their justification for their actions comes across as just an excuse and was an attempt to blame society instead of taking responsiblity for what they did.

Do we forgive people purely because of where or how or what environment they were raised? Do we not as a society have a right to expect that all laws apply to all people equally, no matter who the lawyer or what the current social situation is at the time?

Who then truely has the right to take or demand of a life? My government has no more right to demand it from me than the crackhead on the street.
The individual states have made their decisions known. The majority of people in those states that voted for the death penalty have decided that this is what they want. Sorry I do not have any "facts" to back that statement up only knowing that if people in the states that have the death penalty wanted it revoked could get a referendum placed on a ballot to have it revoked.


Yet we are on the cusp of the draft
Different subject for me, but that is one MAJOR reason that I have never applied for US citizenship for my two sons. I never want them to have to face being drafted and fighting for a cause that I do not feel is justified. Among a few other reasons as well.

Sidenote....Uminchu I hope you are able to make the JU meet in November I would be very happy to meet you socially .:)

[ja_Patriot]

I’m not sure if I support public executions but here’s a taste of what you may expect as a spectacle. If you don’t get to watch the video in its entirety, well, you may not be alone.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5ab_1172940415

Don’t get me wrong. I think the Moussaouis and Padillas should be put to death ASAP. No need wasting public funding on certified detritus.


#

[kombu_kid]

I'll bet if there were public executions, it would further bolster the push to abolish it. The public tends to be so fickle, that the "pendulum" of popular opinion would probably be swayed over after the media ran a mountain of personal stories of each of the convicted and their "hard life".

But it wouldn't surprise me that the public execution idea could go forward and happen. People love something new, and the networks could always "spin it" to say it will deter kids from crime. Can you imagine all the possibilities? The audience could "vote" with their cellphones (a la American Idol) for a certain convict to be pardoned. I'm sure the more charismatic and good-looking convicts would do well.....know who Barabbas is?

Anybody see "Running Man"?

It seems a shame that the people in prison can't be made to contribute more back to society that it took from. I've thought about the ideas that prisoners be allowed to work for outside businesses for dirt cheap wages, but that seems ripe for abuse. I believe that some prisons already do this. Maybe the public wouldn't be hot for the death penalty if "hard labor" meant just that. We've got a whole country to feed; send 'em to the fields. If they want to work out and get buff, I'm sure there is some railroad track that needs to be laid down. Our infrastructure is flat-out worn out; get hot! That convicts cost America ANYTHING is wrong.

There's something wrong when we have illegal immigrants busting their humps, sleeping on a floor somewhere, making almost nothing, and convicts (able-bodied men, usually) doing nothing, costing the taxpayer billions, and generally wasting their life away.

You know, to me a lot of problems seem to stem from weakness. Weakness of people to condemn many things that contribute to the delinquency of kids. Wanna have 5 kids from 5 different fathers and go on welfare? No problem! That's YOUR choice and who are we to "judge" that behavior? And then when the kid drops out of school, (his single mom clueless and most likely more interested in her "latest guy") has zero options and turns to a gang, everybody acts like "who dropped the ball"?

Maybe if we went back to hard core discipline and stopped the "touchy-feely" self-esteem crap, we could steer this bus away from the cliff we're about to go over. Well, we've pretty much gone over it.

The American media and the left might "get it", once America crashes financially and all the emerging economies pass us up like we're standing next to a freeway, because they still remember how to instill discipline and sacrifice in their kids, so they can HAVE a future.

[Fonze]

Ja that dude probably deserved that or worse. That would defenitely teach me a lesson and if this dude didn't learn once and does whatever he did to get in trouble again he probably liked it.

[ja_Patriot]

Fonze,

The guy was caught drug trafficking. They don't mess around with BS bleeding hearts in Singapore and Malaysia. You do it, you're going to have an intimate experience with extreme pain the hard way.

He probably was at the threshold of death and had a sore body for a few months, but he's motivated to get back with a new role in society.

Is caning a deterrent? I think it is.


#

[Mad Hatter]

I would just like to　see a good old fashion hangin!!! is that to much to ask?

[Fonze]

I would just like to　see a good old fashion hangin!!! is that to much to ask?

I dont think so as long as he was busted red handed and guilty as charged.

[Asshat]

Kombu, your right wing rhetoric is getting in the way of common sense. I agree that watching public executions would serve to make them illegal.

But having five kids from five fathers is not anyone's buisness, nor is it a gaurentee they're on welfare, drop outs, or gang members. What is more of a promise though is that the children of the men out there who refuse to accept their responsibilities with child support will end up on wefare.

As far as these wefare recipients and gangs having much to do with the economy, well, I guess the current state of economic affairs doesn't support any of what you are getting at.

Here's an idea: Why don't we take three or four days off from the Iraq war and use the money to get everyone off the street, educate them and make them productive?

Maybe we could get Bush to first put the money back into the VA, since that's where he got the first few million from. Maybe take another look at NAFTA and other Central America free trade agreements, close our borders to that trade- get those American automakers back to work at 30 bucks an hour.

[DocTurtle]

Some believe that you should cause it would keep people from doing things they know are wrong. Others believe that you shouldn't cause it would just desensitize us. I think that it might even make more people do more devistating actions just so they could get their 5 min of fame in the history books. Bonnie and Clyde anyone?

EDIT:
I'm for it :p

[Fonze]

Kombu, your right wing rhetoric is getting in the way of common sense. I agree that watching public executions would serve to make them illegal.

But having five kids from five fathers is not anyone's buisness, nor is it a gaurentee they're on welfare, drop outs, or gang members. What is more of a promise though is that the children of the men out there who refuse to accept their responsibilities with child support will end up on wefare.

As far as these wefare recipients and gangs having much to do with the economy, well, I guess the current state of economic affairs doesn't support any of what you are getting at.

Here's an idea: Why don't we take three or four days off from the Iraq war and use the money to get everyone off the street, educate them and make them productive?

Maybe we could get Bush to first put the money back into the VA, since that's where he got the first few million from. Maybe take another look at NAFTA and other Central America free trade agreements, close our borders to that trade- get those American automakers back to work at 30 bucks an hour.

You talk about right wing rants and your anti-bush rants don't make you look any better especially sounding like Lou Dobbs.:) You make it sound as If your king Bill Clinton had America in a utopia and had everyone off the streets, Oh I forget he was getting blow jobs and woorying about public opinion instead of nipping terrorism at the bud and killing USB and the having his croony Sandy Bergere destroy the truth of his adm.

[atb35]

Kombu, your right wing rhetoric is getting in the way of common sense. I agree that watching public executions would serve to make them illegal.

But having five kids from five fathers is not anyone's buisness, nor is it a gaurentee they're on welfare, drop outs, or gang members. What is more of a promise though is that the children of the men out there who refuse to accept their responsibilities with child support will end up on wefare.

As far as these wefare recipients and gangs having much to do with the economy, well, I guess the current state of economic affairs doesn't support any of what you are getting at.

Here's an idea: Why don't we take three or four days off from the Iraq war and use the money to get everyone off the street, educate them and make them productive?

Maybe we could get Bush to first put the money back into the VA, since that's where he got the first few million from. Maybe take another look at NAFTA and other Central America free trade agreements, close our borders to that trade- get those American automakers back to work at 30 bucks an hour.


The problem with 'getting everyone off the streets' is this...poor people are poor for a reason. You can give them money, you can attempt to educate them, you can try to lead them to water, but in the end, your always going to have poor people. Lazy people are just lazy, they will stay that way regardless of what the government does to help them.

I will use any of my poor, white trash family as an example. Give them any amount of money and for a small period of time, they wont be poor. Once they waste the money given to them on smokes, alcohol, lottery tickets and misc other crap that has NO EARNING POTENTIAL, they will be broke, and a burden on society again. There are very few cases where someone in the United States doesnt have the opportunity to make something of themselves. It is a matter of will and determination. Some people need to work ALOT hard and have many more obstacles then others, but the potential is there for nearly everyone.

I say to hell with anyone not willing to help themselves. I got out of a dirt poor family to live ok, and give my children a much better life then I had....I have no pitty whatsoever for poor people.

[Asshat]

Fonze, I do not enjoy being rude while hiding behind my keyboard. But....

You do not know me, and based upon your last comments you are either very biased, or so fresh from the shores of Americana that you can not accept the notion of independant thought which transcends political affiliation.

I'm a retired Marine and a registered republican.

While I think getting a blowjob in office is much less offensive than lying about a country's offensive weaponry then invading that country, you need to know Bill wasn't my "King."

I do hope that Ann Coulter is not your Queen. :)

Now please tell me how King George has nipped terrorism in the bud? I keep missing that. Must be hidden next to huge caches of VX and centrifuges.

[P_chan]

I’m not sure if I support public executions but here’s a taste of what you may expect as a spectacle. If you don’t get to watch the video in its entirety, well, you may not be alone.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5ab_1172940415

Don’t get me wrong. I think the Moussaouis and Padillas should be put to death ASAP. No need wasting public funding on certified detritus.


#

Good video, but it made my butt hurt!

[Fonze]

Fonze, I do not enjoy being rude while hiding behind my keyboard. But....

You do not know me, and based upon your last comments you are either very biased, or so fresh from the shores of Americana that you can not accept the notion of independant thought which transcends political affiliation.

I'm a retired Marine and a registered republican.

While I think getting a blowjob in office is much less offensive than lying about a country's offensive weaponry then invading that country, you need to know Bill wasn't my "King."

I do hope that Ann Coulter is not your Queen. :)

Now please tell me how King George has nipped terrorism in the bud? I keep missing that. Must be hidden next to huge caches of VX and centrifuges.

Oh sorry I guess your unbiased response to Kumbu kid and your unbiased bush rant was read wrong:rolleyes:

I apologize to youi for the Clinton comment and no that broad aint my queen but is funny. As for Bush at least he's doing something about it and seriously that old Bush lied line has been debunked so it gets old. Clinton and everyone thought he did and Saddam lied. If you stay current they did find chemical weapons just not the amount we thought and old , YET they were there and saddam said they were'nt.

[Fonze]

Back on topic

Has anyone Been to prison here?
Has anyone been in a gang or had really gangbanging friends?
Has anyone been part of a criminal element or a criminal?

I can sadly answer yes to all 3. My point is that Prison are chill. Gang banger don't fear Prison or punishment cause 1 they probably don't watch t.v or have cable and watch what punishment looks like. If they do they're watching MTV or BET or Bullshit.

Gangmembers don't fear prison cause they think " shite my homeboy is in there and there is drugs in there, I could get respect in there and work and I can workout, I can go on. If ther was some public punishment or exucutions I do believe it would deter some. Right now they don't fear punisment and there parents can only tell them so much.

[kombu_kid]

But having five kids from five fathers is not anyone's buisness, nor is it a gaurentee they're on welfare, drop outs, or gang members. What is more of a promise though is that the children of the men out there who refuse to accept their responsibilities with child support will end up on wefare.

Uminchu, your 2nd paragraph seems to contradict itself a bit. I would say that it IS someone's business, if they are on welfare. It's the taxpayer's business, who's footing the bill. And I didn't say that it's guaranteed they'll be on welfare, drop-outs or gang members, but I would say the probability is high in a situation like this. (5 kids/5 daddies)

It's not that I want the government looking over my shoulder, telling me who I can have kids with.....my thing is this: I'm betting that there is negative pressure from the society in other countries towards people who would raise 5 kids from 5 daddies & not marry any of them. I don't think you're going to see it anytime soon in Japan, China or India. I just get tired of being labeled a "right-wing wacko" just because I believe there is a right way and wrong way to do things. 5 kids/5 different daddies/didn't marry any of them--wrong way. I'm sick of this "it's all good" mentality.

As far as the economy goes, my opinion is that this country is not in good shape at all. If it weren't for China and all the other countries buying up all our bonds etc. to finance our debt, I think we'd be in for an immediate rude awakening. Do you know what being in debt in the trillions means? When I say "rude awakening", I mean, how about trying to fight 2 wars and finding out your credit card is "maxed out"? BTW, China is having trouble finding places to invest all their surplus cash.

Maybe we could get Bush to first put the money back into the VA, since that's where he got the first few million from. Maybe take another look at NAFTA and other Central America free trade agreements, close our borders to that trade- get those American automakers back to work at 30 bucks an hour.

Here's something I definitely agree with, except I think long-term planning and the American people are always at the end of the list. And did you know that right now, Condoleeza Rice is running around drumming up support for another NAFTA-type agreement in South America? Bush ain't the working man's friend, and I don't see those high paying jobs ever coming back. He wants the whole 3rd world over here in the states, driving wages down and stimulating demand for housing.

[Asshat]

Kombu, I note your address is in LA? Perhaps we have a different view of life. I've always paid my taxes, yet don't (and have not) lived in the US long enough to realize any benefit from paying them. Not living overseas.

We are not far off in our views of the wefare state, okay? But like the smoking in the car thread elsewhere, I chaff at government control over any aspect of our lives, and that includes our right to have five kids from five fathers, then asking the working class to pay their bills.

The trade-off just isn't worth it though. Mandatory sterilization? Alter brain stem function for murderers?

China has continued to devalue it's currency, and those export ships are leaving less with less. (My friend is in the shipping industry in the UK)

Despite the doom and gloom of the US economy, my paycheck still looks good, and my bank account gets better. The average American is what, 20K in debt for credit cards? There is a lot more going on with the US economy than NAFTA (and yes, I am aware of the Central America deals) and the steady export of jobs.

So...big business should buckle under to worker demands for more pay, better retirement packages, and medical coverage in a country where the average home costs 220K, malpractice insurance is 100K per year, and yes, some families make more money by not working.... The problem is bigger than the welfare system, and transcends government control on making babies.

Heck, the above is why I have lived here so long. I don't think I could ever live in America again. I couldn't give up my freedom.