contemporary nihongo disappearing?

[Blues]

http://www.japanator.com/is-this-the-end-of-the-japanese-language--12172.phtml

http://www.japanator.com/elephant/ul/12172-620x-Kanji.png.jpg


Is the Japanese language going to die out? Well, I wouldn't be so rash, but some people are worried. Everyone knows Japanese is a very difficult language to learn (as many anime fans have probably found out the hard way). Even native Japanese speakers can have trouble with the language, as shown when Prime Minister Taro Aso screwed up reading kanji out loud.

But with the onset of technology and so many Western influences going on, the Japanese language is seeing some new turns. English words are increasingly becoming part of the language, and people are typing letters instead of making them as beautiful calligraphy. The New York Times itself got involved with this in a recent article, prompted by Minae Mizumura's book The Fall of Japanese in the Age of English.

While part of the article told about email taking over calligraphy, it also quotes some people who are fine with the changes. Novelist Haruki Murakami, in fact, is quoted saying language is a living thing and therefore will change. And just because some of these changes are happening, it doesn't mean calligraphy is dead. Still, I can completely understand the other side's point-of-view. It's like how I have to capitalize and spell things right while texting, no matter how much my friends roll their eyes at me.

[Godzilla]

Hmm, maybe it is dieing for a reason.

[SnaFu]

No disrespect intended towards the Japanes but I think Kanji is rediculous. You give three high school educated individuals a Japanese news paper to read and you get three different versions of the same story.

As far as Aso... There is probably a reason that his name almost sounds like ass hole.

[gtlm2000]

http://www.japanator.com/is-this-the-end-of-the-japanese-language--12172.phtml

http://www.japanator.com/elephant/ul/12172-620x-Kanji.png.jpg


Is the Japanese language going to die out? Well, I wouldn't be so rash, but some people are worried. Everyone knows Japanese is a very difficult language to learn (as many anime fans have probably found out the hard way). Even native Japanese speakers can have trouble with the language, as shown when Prime Minister Taro Aso screwed up reading kanji out loud.

But with the onset of technology and so many Western influences going on, the Japanese language is seeing some new turns. English words are increasingly becoming part of the language, and people are typing letters instead of making them as beautiful calligraphy. The New York Times itself got involved with this in a recent article, prompted by Minae Mizumura's book The Fall of Japanese in the Age of English.

While part of the article told about email taking over calligraphy, it also quotes some people who are fine with the changes. Novelist Haruki Murakami, in fact, is quoted saying language is a living thing and therefore will change. And just because some of these changes are happening, it doesn't mean calligraphy is dead. Still, I can completely understand the other side's point-of-view. It's like how I have to capitalize and spell things right while texting, no matter how much my friends roll their eyes at me.


Oh.....I can't read Kanji :D

[Richard Burns]

I love kanji. It's hard and all but I find it facinating. It's such an amazing language. The way these cools ass pictures mean something as oppsed to just letters.

I hope it doesn't die out and I highly doubt it.

I do know English will become a second langauge here though. The school system's already working on it.

[SnaFu]

It may look nice but it just does not seem practical to me.

[Blues]

No disrespect intended towards the Japanes but I think Kanji is rediculous.

blame the chinese for inventing it. at least korea wised up and ditched it almost entirely.

[DoctorP]

I love kanji. It's hard and all but I find it facinating. It's such an amazing language. The way these cools ass pictures mean something...

Same thing was said about Roman letters once too.:D:thumbup1:

[garryizumi]

No disrespect intended towards the Japanes but I think Kanji is rediculous. You give three high school educated individuals a Japanese news paper to read and you get three different versions of the same story.

As far as Aso... There is probably a reason that his name almost sounds like ass hole.

People usually are critical of things that they don't understand, or can't comprehend.

Curious, do you read/write Japanese? Have you tried it?

Yes, it's difficult to learn, that's why everyone doesn't have the discipline to push themselves.

[SnaFu]

People usually are critical of things that they don't understand, or can't comprehend.

Curious, do you read/write Japanese? Have you tried it?

Yes, it's difficult to learn, that's why everyone doesn't have the discipline to push themselves.

No I do not. Katakana, Hiragana marginal kanji a few symbols here and there but as you suggested I am functionally illiterate but that was not the point.

No disrespect intended towards the Japanes but I think Kanji is rediculous. You give three high school educated individuals a Japanese news paper to read and you get three different versions of the same story.

The bold portion of the statement is not a stretch of the imagination. Just an opinion but a written language that uses a limited number of characters to create words just seems more practical.

[Blues]

People usually are critical of things that they don't understand, or can't comprehend.

Curious, do you read/write Japanese? Have you tried it?

Yes, it's difficult to learn, that's why everyone doesn't have the discipline to push themselves.

this is the third foreign language I've attempted to learn, and by far the most difficult.

like the article states, not all Japanese know all their kanjii either.
its a bit asanine to have three different character sets totaling 2000+. when Koreans can manage to get their message across with just 24. i say dump kanji entirely and stick with kana.

[DoctorP]

this is the third foreign language I've attempted to learn, and by far the most difficult.

like the article states, not all Japanese know all their kanjii either.
its a bit asanine to have three different character sets totaling 2000+. when Koreans can manage to get their message across with just 24. i say dump kanji entirely and stick with kana.

What I find funny is the "holier than though" attitude from foreigners that do pick up the language quickly. :rolleyes:

[SnaFu]

this is the third foreign language I've attempted to learn, and by far the most difficult.

like the article states, not all Japanese know all their kanjii either.
its a bit asanine to have three different character sets totaling 2000+. when Koreans can manage to get their message across with just 24. i say dump kanji entirely and stick with kana.

Ahhhhh..... I see you said attempted to learn which would imply that you have not mastered it Grass Hopper San.

You.... you critical self absorbed gaijin low life.

Why... In my day we learned the 2000 plus kanjii sets... And another 1000 Egyptian hieroglyphics just for fun. And we liked it!:old:

(Here is where I would insert icon for prick with ears)

[gtlm2000]

How many people in here can read kanji, katakana and hiragana?

[Jazz]

How many people in here can read kanji, katakana and hiragana?

None of us can read it all I bet. Many of us probably kana and several kanji.

[Tanimaga]

How many people in here can read kanji, katakana and hiragana?

Katakana & Hiragana no problem, but only about 20 Kanji. I never studied, just picked it up out of necessity (usually chicks who spoke no English.. just used Japanese text messages)

Newly married to a wife who speaks almost perfect English, so my learning has pretty much stopped.

[Muku]

No disrespect intended towards the Japanes but I think Kanji is rediculous. You give three high school educated individuals a Japanese news paper to read and you get three different versions of the same story.



Three different versions in which language? English or Japanese?

[Richard Burns]

I think he's addressing the fact that the same kanjis can have different meanings.

Like 火 can mean Tuesday, fire, a planet not sure which one though.

[Muku]

like the article states, not all Japanese know all their kanjii either.
its a bit asanine to have three different character sets totaling 2000+. when Koreans can manage to get their message across with just 24. i say dump kanji entirely and stick with kana.
I have yet to meet a Japanese person that knows "all" the kanji anyway.

If you think Japanese is asinine then try Chinese on for a change of pace. Something like 5000 characters and each character having 4 different pronunciations.

I know plenty of people that think that English is asinine as well, different pronunciations for the same words, things like that. English is one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn as well. At least with Japanese the pronunciation is relatively easy and doesnt change from word to word. If a person learning Japanese can get over trying to learn the language using their English background it isnt all that hard of a language to learn to speak.

If you want to learn to read and write it then all you have to do is have the ability to memorize the different kanji, their use, and proper grammar.

One thing your statements here say to me is that you have found the learning process more difficult because of the unfamiliarity of the characters and you want to critisize the system and the people who can not read it here to make you feel less guilty about not being able to master it. Kind of like saying hell if they can't do so why should I.

Let's not forget that there are plenty of people that can speak English but cant read or write it either. Same here too. But I will tell you this much the literacy rate for this country and it's "asinine language" is still higher than in the USA. Think about that for a moment.

[Muku]

I think he's addressing the fact that the same kanjis can have different meanings.

Like 火 can mean Tuesday, fire, a planet not sure which one though.

Yet RB keep in mind that in print the meaning would be obvious to an educated person and they more than likely would not misread one particular kanji if they knew it. Plus in your example here the kanji for Tuesday when used in a sentence to describe something else would more than likely not stand alone. You can pick out any kanji on it's own but you have to look at it in the context of the sentence that it was written.

However translating into English could very well have three different people give three different translations based upon their overall knowledge of English and the fact that in English there are in many cases various ways to say the same thing.

[Richard Burns]

That's true with the context of the sentence.

I think English is asinine.

How the **** does ph make an f sound. That's just retarded.

[Godzilla]

How many people in here can read kanji, katakana and hiragana?

I can't and I don't want to. I have no need to learn them. For me it is a complete waste of time.

[Tanimaga]

I think English is asinine.

American English is like its citizens.. a mixture of accents and different languages. I'm glad I grew up in the US.. I would never easily pick it up unless I was raised with it.

[Richard Burns]

I can't and I don't want to. I have no need to learn them. For me it is a complete waste of time.


If you stay here you'll need it. It feels like crap when you have to ask everybody for help all the time and read and write like a 3 year old.

[Godzilla]

If you stay here you'll need it. It feels like crap when you have to ask everybody for help all the time and read and write like a 3 year old.

Negative,
I have been here 10+ years and have not needed it once.

If you work off base and stuff then you'll need it. But I would rather stick a fork in my eye than work off base.

Therefore, I will never need it.

[Tanimaga]

I dated a mainland girl, and we started texting, she asked me in choppy spelled English if I understood Japanese. I switched to Japanese texting on my cell, which has the "auto Kanji select".. you start to spell it out, and it comes up with the most commonly used Kanji symbols (nice if you are unsure). Talk about major points scored there. Luckily, she didn't send me any difficult things to understand, and the whole conversation went well. Something quite satisfying about having an actual connection instead of stumbling around.

[Tanimaga]

Negative,
I have been here 10+ years and have not needed it once.

If you work off base and stuff then you'll need it. But I would rather stick a fork in my eye than work off base.

Therefore, I will never need it.

Over ten years, and never needed it? Seems unlikely.

Never looked at the fusebox on your car? Rented a video off base? Ordered food?

[Godzilla]

Over ten years, and never needed it? Seems unlikely.

Never looked at the fusebox on your car? Rented a video off base? Ordered food?


Never needed it, and never will.

fusebox: What me fix my own car?!? I pay other people to do that shit!

rented off base movies: No, why would I do that?!?

Order food: yes, but I dont like Japanese food. And if they don't cater to Americans then screw them.

[abonifi1]

I have yet to meet a Japanese person that knows "all" the kanji anyway.

If you think Japanese is asinine then try Chinese on for a change of pace. Something like 5000 characters and each character having 4 different pronunciations.

I know plenty of people that think that English is asinine as well, different pronunciations for the same words, things like that. English is one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn as well. At least with Japanese the pronunciation is relatively easy and doesnt change from word to word. If a person learning Japanese can get over trying to learn the language using their English background it isnt all that hard of a language to learn to speak.

If you want to learn to read and write it then all you have to do is have the ability to memorize the different kanji, their use, and proper grammar.

One thing your statements here say to me is that you have found the learning process more difficult because of the unfamiliarity of the characters and you want to critisize the system and the people who can not read it here to make you feel less guilty about not being able to master it. Kind of like saying hell if they can't do so why should I.

Let's not forget that there are plenty of people that can speak English but cant read or write it either. Same here too. But I will tell you this much the literacy rate for this country and it's "asinine language" is still higher than in the USA. Think about that for a moment.


As for the Chinese meanings, I can confirm, ask any Chinese person, if they don't read and right it everyday they can't read and write it the next day (they have an estimated 79,000 characters)

No one in the world can read all Kanji, Kanji experts argue over meanings of Kanji.

As a written language I would say, yes it is a poor communication language (particularly in China which cannot write it any other way, and every district makes up their own Kanji for newly experienced items).

There are examples, however Muku, in specialities, say engineering, where even engineers can not get an easy understanding of the word.

Valve, which is an applicator of anything, using the Kanji for gun, which also means cancer. Yes reading the character in context they would quickly eliminate cancer, but sit their confused over gun, and usually refer back to the English version of the paper to get the answer.

While the context in which people here are discussing, is accurate, it is highly unlikely from an educated person in daily use, most of the issues you are refering to happen in specialty areas, where the foreign language introduced it, and for whatever reason, it was tried to be fit as Kanji, instead of Kana.

Fields like Medicine, Engineering, Programming, Architecture, Applied Mathematics, ect.,ect., not in the everyday usage.

[P_chan]

I know the sure fire way to read all kanji/hiragana/katakana and what not. I look at it real hard...........and then.........I ask my wife what is says:D

[SnaFu]

How many people in here can read kanji, katakana and hiragana?

Kanjii:
rock / ishi
river / kawa
forest / mori
water / mizu
days of the week sometimes
now / ima
draft / nama (as in draft beer)
ice / kori
fire/ hi
me / watshi

Maybe a couple other stray kanjiis
I used to be good at hiragana and katakana but have not used it in a while and forgotten some.

Basically I am illiterate in Japanese and I am too old and too lazy to give a damn either way. I generally don't complain about it but I will offer an opinion if asked.
:old:

[Mehi River]

Like 火 can mean Tuesday, fire, a planet not sure which one though.

It would depend whether it was used in combination or not.

Actually, 火 can mean Tuesday only in the same way as the English contraction "Tue" or "Tues" can, as it is an abbreviation of 火曜日.

By itself it means fire, and combined with the kanji for planet to make 火星, it means Mars.

I don't know which order the Japanese (or the westerners) did things in, but in English Mars is often called the 'red' or 'fiery' planet, and I think Tuesday came from the name of an old god who was associated with Mars.

Anyway, it is much easier to learn kanji if you think about them as having themes rather than meanings.

If you remember the themes, you can generally ascertain the meanings.

[abonifi1]

Anyway, it is much easier to learn kanji if you think about them as having themes rather than meanings.

If you remember the themes, you can generally ascertain the meanings.

Can you explain more on what you mean by the above Mehi.

I think it might be useful info. I can write many that I have difficulty remembering whether its the chinese, or japanese meaning I am thinking of and it might be more useful for me and others.

[Mehi River]

Can you explain more on what you mean by the above Mehi.

I think it might be useful info. I can write many that I have difficulty remembering whether its the chinese, or japanese meaning I am thinking of and it might be more useful for me and others.

Well, I can try.

I am by no means an expert, but what works for me does work - I just wish I knew how it worked, so that I could have everything worked out for the better.

Ok then....

Um...

Kanji came to Japan from China, with the Chinese pronunciations intact, a great many years before the noise complaints at Kadena or wherever.

It was the language of education and diplomacy and religion and what not, so not everyone knew it.

Kinda like Latin back in the day in old blightey.

So the Japanese adopted the writing symbols, and started using them for Japanese words with the same meanings.

E.g., in keeping with the fire example:
The Japanese word for fire is "hi".
They didn't have a way of writing that, so they took it from the Chinese. Now the Chinese of course had their own word for it, with its own pronunciation, so the Japanese took that as well.

Most Kanji have 2 readings or pronunciation (many have more).

in the case of fire they are

hi
and
ka

The theme here is fire: so just knowing that means you can ascertain the meanings of :

火　　　fire, flame " I just made fire !"
火事 fire "Oh look, a fire in that building"
山火事 mountain fire "Oh look, a fire on the mountain"
防火　　prevention of fire
花火　　fireworks (lit. "flower fires")

The readings are going to be hi or ka for the 火　component.

[DougP]

山火事 mountain fire "Oh look, a fire on the mountain"


and then there's 火山 "Volcano" :)

[Mehi River]

and then there's 火山 "Volcano" :)

exactly!

the source of many a 山火事.
:grin1:

[Mehi River]

Actually, Kanji are very important for working out what people are saying. Japanese has a limited number of vowels, so therefore a limited number of sounds. Many words sound the same, and kanji is often the only way to work out what is being said.
They also act as noun/verb delineators, which is handy, because there are no spaces written Japanese.

[DougP]

exactly!

the source of many a 山火事.
:grin1:

I have noticed that the reading (pronunciation) of 火 is "ka" when its the first character in a kanji-combo (usually). Except for one of the examples you gave, 防火 bouka. Now, I don't know too many words that use fire so maybe I'm way off base here. 山 is kind of the same way. When its at the beginning, 山 is yama 山火事 - yama kaji, when it comes after, its san/zan 火山 - kazan. Something like that. :D I mix up the on yomi and kun yomi a lot. :w00t:

[abonifi1]

Kanji came to Japan from China, with the Chinese pronunciations intact, a great many years before the noise complaints at Kadena or wherever.


So the Japanese adopted the writing symbols, and started using them for Japanese words with the same meanings.

E.g., in keeping with the fire example:
The Japanese word for fire is "hi".
They didn't have a way of writing that, so they took it from the Chinese. Now the Chinese of course had their own word for it, with its own pronunciation, so the Japanese took that as well..

Just a note about the History, Chinese refers to the Language spoken in China at the time and does not reflect Mandarin Chinese of today which was the local language of Hubei Province and adapted as the National language in 1954, and not before that, by Mao Zedong.

Which happened to be his home province,and the language he spoke.

[DougP]

Actually, Kanji are very important for working out what people are saying. Japanese has a limited number of vowels, so therefore a limited number of sounds. Many words sound the same, and kanji is often the only way to work out what is being said.
They also act as noun/verb delineators, which is handy, because there are no spaces written Japanese.

Japanese would look a mess if it was written without kanji. One sentence could be a mile long, ok I'm exaggerating a bit. :) But I have yet to see any spaces put in between words so the kanji really helps out in that area. The only breaks I do see when reading Japanese is at the end of a sentence.

[Mehi River]

I have noticed that the reading (pronunciation) of 火 is "ka" when its the first character in a kanji-combo (usually). Except for one of the examples you gave, 防火 bouka. Now, I don't know too many words that use fire so maybe I'm way off base here. 山 is kind of the same way. When its at the beginning, 山 is yama 山火事 - yama kaji, when it comes after, its san/zan 火山 - kazan. Something like that. :D I mix up the on yomi and kun yomi a lot. :w00t:

Yeah, I still am not sure which is which most of the time, but as a general rule the on-yomi is for use in compounds, and the kunyomi for just the japanese words.
Of course as a rule, it is neither hard nor fast.
Much like a lethargic and limp lovetool.

[Kikai-no-Kami]

I dated a mainland girl, and we started texting, she asked me in choppy spelled English if I understood Japanese. I switched to Japanese texting on my cell, which has the "auto Kanji select".. you start to spell it out, and it comes up with the most commonly used Kanji symbols (nice if you are unsure). Talk about major points scored there. Luckily, she didn't send me any difficult things to understand, and the whole conversation went well. Something quite satisfying about having an actual connection instead of stumbling around.

BAM. I just find it easier to get around off base AND away from the military when i want to when i know the local language. I'm having a good time in Korea right now doing the same thing. Of course, my Korean isn't as good as my Japanese though.

Demo Nihongo dekiru de yokatta.:thumbup:

[abonifi1]

Japanese would look a mess if it was written without kanji. One sentence could be a mile long, ok I'm exaggerating a bit. :) But I have yet to see any spaces put in between words so the kanji really helps out in that area. The only breaks I do see when reading Japanese is at the end of a sentence.

The childrens books put in breaks,and they seem to disappear or just become less and less as the level goes up, I think its around the 5th or 6th grade textsand books the breaks finally disappear from what I have noticed.