Should denying history be a crime?

[TheNoNamedOne]

In Germany there is the crime of denying the Holocaust. If one does deny that part of Germany's history in Germany, one can be prosecuted, fined, and imprisoned. And indeed some have been.

Do you agree that countries should pass such history denial laws? Even though Germany is a democracy, isn't such a law a remnant or characteristic of dictatorship, as freedom of speech and to some extent thought, too, is imposed upon by the state?

Perhaps the U.S. should also make it a crime to deny the history of slavery in the U.S. or the policies and actions that decimated Native Americans.

[dk]

Yes.

Doubt it'll happen though.

[DougP]

I wonder if this thread has anything to do with a certain speech I stayed up all night to watch. One where someone said there needs to be more research done on whether the Holocaust really occurred. Found it funny that someone could say such a thing and then turn around and talk of all the ill treatment towards the Palestinians over the last 60 years. How can one be an absolute fact yet another needs more research? As far as it being a crime, well is it a crime to be an ignorant asshole? Perhaps it should be.

[TheNoNamedOne]

lol.

But Doug, I don't think you gave a clear opinion in the end. Do you think there should be a crime making it illegal to deny history?

@dk: "Yes" to what? That it should be illegal and that the U.S., too, should pass laws to make it illegal to deny aspects of our history?

[dk]

Yes that it should be illegal to officially deny history.

I think it needs to be in an official context though and should have levels of severety depending on a case by case basis. For example, saying "I didn't see your post on a forum" when evidence says that you did shouldn't land somebody in jail. Yeah, I know, that's extreme.

I think what Japan is trying to do with Okinawan WWII history should land a few officials in prison if I'm reading everything correctly.

But then again, there's been a lot of cover-ups over the years. Should it be illegal for governments and militaries to deny knowledge about whatever it is they can neither confirm nor deny? No, I'm not talking about Roswell. :p Where does the line get drawn?

Yes, I'm just throwing out ideas.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Yes that it should be illegal to officially deny history.

Should a high school senior, or college freshman, be hauled off to court and prison when on the first day of school, opening their text and seeing the chapter on the Holocaust broached, proclaim with disgust, "This shit never happened."

I am not sure what you mean by "officially."

[TheNoNamedOne]

I see you edited your last reply, dk.

What if from one's research someone comes to a different view of history? Aren't they bound by intellectual honesty to profess where that leads them to their beliefs?

[dk]

Should a high school senior, or college freshman, be hauled off to court and prison when on the first day of school, opening their text and seeing the chapter on the Holocaust broached, proclaim with disgust, "This shit never happened."

I am not sure what you mean by "officially."
No, that kid shouldn't be arrested. When I say "officially", I mean someone from the government representing a government saying "this never happened".

[dk]

What if from one's research someone comes to a different view of history? Aren't they bound by intellectual honesty to profess where that leads them to their beliefs?
If they have undeniable proof that common belief is wrong, then by all means, offer up the correct version of history. But if you say "the holocaust never happened", you'd better be able to back that up with fact.

[DougP]

I think once you cross the threshold from being a regular citizen to being a teacher or a leader of sorts (politician etc..) You should be held a little more accountable for things. Outright denying history should be one of those things you can get in trouble for. Not necessarily the same way you can get punished for committing murder but more along the lines of perjury or slander.

[TheNoNamedOne]

No, that kid shouldn't be arrested. When I say "officially", I mean someone from the government representing a government saying "this never happened".

So, kind of like a two track legal system of standards and laws for the citizens based on private and public professions?

Hmmm... that could make for some hard jury selection to judge the alleged offender. Who should be considered a pool of jurists as judged by one's peers when there are two legal standards to apply?

Originally Posted by TheProsecutor:
What if from one's research someone comes to a different view of history? Aren't they bound by intellectual honesty to profess where that leads them to their beliefs?

If they have undeniable proof that common belief is wrong, then by all means, offer up the correct version of history. But if you say "the holocaust never happened", you'd better be able to back that up with fact.

Some people' standard of proof and amount of facts is lower than others. If their facts and proof are not as voluminous as the accepted normal view, but still come away with not believing in a particular historical "fact" stated to have happened from their research efforts, then wouldn't that be fine?

Should an amateur researcher or a university employed professor be permitted to publish a book denying common historical beliefs so long as they believe what they are publishing and a market exists for their ideas?

If their facts are subjectively credible to them, then shouldn't that be enough? Those that dispute their findings will find an atmosphere for discussion on the topic to come about, and discussion is always good, isn't it? At least it keeps the crackpot loonies in the open and exposed for lunacy rather than festering in the dark and growing beneath the surface.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Sorry about answering some things out of order from your posts here, dk. Noticed them later or thought of a point about them later.

I think the following one is an interesing one deserving a separate answer standing on its own.

I think what Japan is trying to do with Okinawan WWII history should land a few officials in prison if I'm reading everything correctly.

It bothers me, too. Relating it to America's education system, or contrasting it to be more precise, I think the problem here in Japan that makes it so bad is that the Education Ministry wields enormous power over the ciriculum and materials of the schools. Schools are given a list of approved text books to choose from and that is how the official historical line gets passed down into the citizens' pysches.

In the U.S. teachers and administrators have much more freedom in choosing text books, so if one teacher and by chance a principle and board of education approves of some questionable history book happens in Town X in Texas, it is unlikely that all schools in the U.S. will have their view of history severely distorted. A decentralized education system to me acts as a better safeguard against rogue deniers of history than having a monolithic power deciding what all will be given to them to commit to memory.

The U.S. system protects citizens more effectively from denying history. The Japanese style allows for a few who have an agenda at rewriting and denying history to come to be in a post that would allow them to plot a national rejection of history.

I think a good education system would/should be the first bulwork, and the more appropriate protection for history rather than law making it an offense to deny the accepted version.

[Bones]

Denying history, is definitely wrong. And I believe that those here in Japan, who are attempting to do that should lose their jobs. But sending them to jail is a bit too much,IMHO.

As far as "The Jewish Holocaust" is concerned, that was indeed a reality. I've had the opportunity to visit the Dachau Concentration Camp while stationed in Germany. I've been to Anne Franks' house in Holland, and once on a flight to Germany, had the opportunity to talk to a survivor from The Bergen Belsen Concentration camp. He still had the tattoo on his left forearm.

I certainly hope that yesterdays protest, over at the Convention Center, managed to catch someones attention up in Japan.

NBTP

[Fonze]

.

I certainly hope that yesterdays protest, over at the Convention Center, managed to catch someones attention up in Japan.

NBTP

I hope it did too and that more mainlanders get educated on this questionable past.