Off topic about suicides

[Trail]

I have no sympathy for anyone that tries to commit suicide....

People break. Is it solely their fault? I admit that if he was having issues he needed to go to mental health but honestly, if he had never felt that way before in his life, maybe he was unsure how to cope and was ashamed to speak out to superiors about it. There's too much in the situation that could be going on before we cast the "I have no sympathy stone."

You maybe see it as the dishonorable thing to do but these people honestly see it as the only viable option to end how they feel.

[Crazysix]

People break. Is it solely their fault? I admit that if he was having issues he needed to go to mental health but honestly, if he had never felt that way before in his life, maybe he was unsure how to cope and was ashamed to speak out to superiors about it. There's too much in the situation that could be going on before we cast the "I have no sympathy stone."

You maybe see it as the dishonorable thing to do but these people honestly see it as the only viable option to end how they feel.

YES it is their fault. To allow yourself mentally to pushed that far yes, The selfish bastard dont care about them selves and want to die........ but damn everyone who cares, needs, or depends on them NO one puts you to the stage but You . I still say the unit cannot be to blame it's the individuals fault. Maybe its the way I was raised or my own personal feelings, but I view things like this...whoever or what ever put me to my lowest point...I am going to fight tooth and nail to get back up and will take great personal satisfaction in sticking it in the ass.

[kombu_kid]

Fer cryin' out loud......how many other military folk have someone around who calls them to see if they're all right, visiting them now & then, caring about how they're doing, feeling.......I know depression exists, but damn. Tell him to quit and go back to momma.

"You weren't there for him"........that pisses me off. I woulda call that so-called friend up and told her **** YOU. People and their guilt trips.

[Trail]

What if you superiors are the one's pushing and you have no way out?
GIs Accused Of Hand In Fellow Soldier's Suicide
Ohio Soldier Pvt. Keiffer Wilhelm, 19, Kills Self Four Days After Deployment
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) ― Pvt. Keiffer Wilhelm, 19, committed suicide just four days after deploying to Iraq. He was allegedly exposed to excessive physical fitness and abuse by fellow soldiers.

When Adrian Wilhelm learned that his son committed suicide just four days into his deployment in Iraq, he knew right away that the facts didn't add up.

His son, 19-year-old Pvt. Keiffer Wilhelm, had been excited and upbeat just weeks earlier as he prepared to ship overseas. He was planning to buy a new car. He was exercising diligently, shedding at least 20 pounds in time for boot camp.

Then, suddenly, he was dead. Now his family is struggling to process the stunning news that four of Wilhelm's fellow soldiers stand accused of abusing him and other soldiers in his platoon with excessive physical fitness and cruelty before his death.

"They just acted like they were a bunch of street hoods," Adrian Wilhelm said from his home in Plymouth, Ohio. "They thought they were above the law."

The soldiers have been charged with cruelty and maltreatment of subordinates, among other charges. The military says there is no direct evidence that the soldiers' alleged misconduct caused Wilhelm's death, which remains under investigation.


http://cbs5.com/national/Keiffer.Wilhelm.suicide.2.1143790.html

It was in Stars and Stripes a week or so ago but I could find the article.

It is a selfish act, that much I agree upon but honestly, when you are that far down... you do not give a **** about who cares and who doesn't. That is why it is called mental ILLNESS. You are not acting or thinking the way you should think and your priorities lie else where and often are selfish priorities. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. This hits home since I have dealt with it first hand, now twice, within my immediate family. Not everyone has the balls or strength to fight like you and I would 6.

[Crazysix]

Fer cryin' out loud......how many other military folk have someone around who calls them to see if they're all right, visiting them now & then, caring about how they're doing, feeling.......I know depression exists, but damn. Tell him to quit and go back to momma.

"You weren't there for him"........that pisses me off. I woulda call that so-called friend up and told her **** YOU. People and their guilt trips.

a little colder than what i wrote, but still on point!!!

[Crazysix]

What if you superiors are the one's poushing and you have no way out?


http://cbs5.com/national/Keiffer.Wilhelm.suicide.2.1143790.html

It was in Stars and Stripes a week or so ago but I could find the article.

It is a selfish act, that much I agree upon but honestly, when you are that far down... you do not give a **** about who cares and who doesn't. That is why it is called mental ILLNESS. You are not acting or thinking the way you should think and your priorities lie else where and often are selfish priorities. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. This hits home since I have dealt with it first hand, now twice, within my immediate family. Not everyone has the balls or strength to fight like you and I would 6.
Wilhem was a disgrace......so he was punished or receive EPD and he couldnt handle it!!!! His mommy is going to blame a combat unit because he son was a waste or FU?????? IF you dont have balls or strength you should not be in the military!!!!! They sure as hell dont have time to hold the hand of every crybaby that bounces along, and decides not only to kill him self but , kill a part of friends and family, he or she developed long the way. IMHO if you commit suicide the mil should sne the body back home...thats it in a steel box..no flag and no honors..cause that is how you chose to end your life...NO HONOR

[Richard Burns]

If somebody commits suicide and succeeds I blame their life. Something was that bad that suicide was the easiest option. It's more selfish of others to "force" you to live just because the want you too when you don't want to live anymore.

But these bozos that slit their wrist the wrong way forexample are just little attention whores IMHO.

As far as the OP you at a damn good human being. Both your and your hubby did eerything u could and you didn't have to do anything. There is nothing more you could do. Most people in the military have nobody to check on them. I know people that been to the sandbox 7 times and no friends or family. So I wonder what was going on with him. But you should NOT feel guilty. If his family tries to blame you they're full of shit.

[Richard Burns]

I disagree C6. Sorry but I see where you're comming from but no. That member still served their country and should still get a full military funeral.

[Crazysix]

If somebody commits suicide and succeeds I blame their life. Something was that bad that suicide was the easiest option. It's more selfish of others to "force" you to live just because the want you too when you don't want to live anymore.

But these bozos that slit their wrist the wrong way forexample are just little attention whores IMHO.

As far as the OP you at a damn good human being. Both your and your hubby did eerything u could and you didn't have to do anything. There is nothing more you could do. Most people in the military have nobody to check on them. I know people that been to the sandbox 7 times and no friends or family. So I wonder what was going on with him. But you should NOT feel guilty. If his family tries to blame you they're full of shit.
HELLZ NO, blame them, because YOU, make choices that effect your life

[Trail]

Wow... not everyone is cut out to be in the military but some come into their own with time, you know this. We obviously have differing views and I know full well that if that was my daughter that I knew so well, who acted completely out of character and took her own life, I damn well would be asking why and demanding answers from superiors as well. I would probably be detained for going bat-shit crazy with anger. Put yourself in the parents shoes and then call your son dishonorable for doing the same thing when you don't know all the facts.

[Richard Burns]

HELLZ NO, blame them, because YOU, make choices that effect your life

Not always. Let's say you your wife left you, you lost your house, your dog died lol j/k. My point is a lot of life is outside of our control sometimes.

[Crazysix]

Not always. Let's say you your wife left you, you lost your house, your dog died lol j/k. My point is a lot of life is outside of our control sometimes.

MOve on get a new one, its your decision

[Richard Burns]

Another reason why I say the military stop contacts. As long as a member is in garrison let them put in their 2 week or 30 day notice and quit.

If the military is not for you suicide is the only way out because every other way your record is screwed up for life.

[Crazysix]

Wow... not everyone is cut out to be in the military but some come into their own with time, you know this. We obviously have differing views and I know full well that if that was my daughter that I knew so well, who acted completely out of character and took her own life, I damn well would be asking why and demanding answers from superiors as well. I would probably be detained for going bat-shit crazy with anger. Put yourself in the parents shoes and then call your son dishonorable for doing the same thing when you don't know all the facts.

Trail if it were your child or mine......I would not change my stance.
FACT- you joined up other people depend on you
FACT- the world does not revolve around you
FACT- Military Life isnt easy, but it shouldnt change to coddle the weak
Can not blame the unit for suicide IMHO, the individual is 100% at fault!!!!!! you want out smoke dope and take your knocks......kill your self there is no changing your mind or your ways, You are waste of sperm that just so happen to cause more hardship to others and more so to your family. This whole crying out for attention is BS.....You want attentionwalk ass naked in to you CO's office and start beating off.......you will get attention, Kill yourself and another number steps up and takes your place

[Richard Burns]

But when you kill yourself you don't have to deal with anything or the consequences.

You can walk naked and beat off in front of the COs office then kill yourself and you just got out of them punishing you.

But alive you get thrown out of the servic and your life is ruined.

[Richard Burns]

I will say the whole suicide watches are BS IMHO. If somebody wants to kill themselves then go for it. I'm not mad at ya.

But when the mission has to wait because we have to take turns watching little Johnny in his barracks room because he will kill himself which he really won't because if he wanted to be dead he'd be dead already. That shit losses me the **** off.

[Trail]

Trail if it were your child or mine......I would not change my stance.
FACT- you joined up other people depend on you
FACT- the world does not revolve around you
FACT- Military Life isnt easy, but it shouldnt change to coddle the weak
Can not blame the unit for suicide IMHO, the individual is 100% at fault!!!!!! you want out smoke dope and take your knocks......kill your self there is no changing your mind or your ways, You are waste of sperm that just so happen to cause more hardship to others and more so to your family. This whole crying out for attention is BS.....You want attentionwalk ass naked in to you CO's office and start beating off.......you will get attention, Kill yourself and another number steps up and takes your place

Coddle the weak eh? How is giving due medical attention to a mentally ill patient coddling the weak? In that case, send all these ****ers with flu, colds, mono, and type of affliction medically that could be treated, that show up sick call or hospital to get back to work and not help them.
Your stance is clear and I understand it but damn. The difference between men and women is evident. Maybe that is why they say to send the mother's of those who start wars, to finish them properly.

[Crazysix]

But when you kill yourself you don't have to deal with anything or the consequences.

You can walk naked and beat off in front of the COs office then kill yourself and you just got out of them punishing you.

But alive you get thrown out of the servic and your life is ruined.

RB you can get a dishonorable and still have a normal life!!!!!!its all up to the individual, You kill your self you just screwed anyone and everyone in that persons life...look at CANJAPs example

[Crazysix]

Coddle the weak eh? How is giving due medical attention to a mentally ill patient coddling the weak? In that case, send all these ****ers with flu, colds, mono, and type of affliction medically that could be treated, that show up sick call or hospital to get back to work and not help them.
Your stance is clear and I understand it but damn. The difference between men and women is evident. Maybe that is why they say to send the mother's of those who start wars, to finish them properly.

YES trail, weak........people join the mil and expect college life and forget about the main purpose is to fight and die.........YES MY STANCE IS CLEAR!!!!!! And funny only thing mothers seem to do right as of late is cry, complain and blame others when their weak ass children fail!!!!!
MOM (Mothers of Merica)LOL, has been a pain n the ass of the military since the beginning.......Understand the Fact..your child joined a WAR MACHINE not a county daycare service!!!!

[Richard Burns]

I saw that. You are exactly right C6.

But ultimatly it's the individual that has to live that life not everyone else. It's selfiish to expect them to when they can't do it anymore. IMHO.

I wouldn't kill myself in garrison cuz it seems pointless. But I'd I was ever a POW there is a 99% chance I'm killing myself rather than be tortured or let the enemy kill me.

Ultimatley it's up to the individual and there's not much we can do. But f I was still in (I was a Cpl) and one of my Marines killed themselves I would probaly blame myself. As an NCO I would wonder where I went wrong and wonder what more I could have done.

[Crazysix]

if your life is such a bitch,,,stay alive and fight to get even with those who put you through hell

[Richard Burns]

Another thing getting thrown out of the service makes it pretty hard to have a normal life.

Even Micky Ds asks what kind of discharge you got and I'm sure as soon as they run your SSN it will pop right up.

[Trail]

YES trail, weak........people join the mil and expect college life and forget about the main purpose is to fight and die.........YES MY STANCE IS CLEAR!!!!!! And funny only thing mothers seem to do right as of late is cry, complain and blame others when their weak ass children fail!!!!!
MOM (Mothers of Merica)LOL, has been a pain n the ass of the military since the beginning.......Understand the Fact..your child joined a WAR MACHINE not a county daycare service!!!!

So are you going to go Tom Cruise on us and say psychology is a pseudoscience? Mental illness can be cured by a false religion or better yet, it cures itself? It ain't nothin' a good 'ol swift kick in ass wouldn't cure? That type of mentality leads to suicides.

I think if you bore human life, raised, tended it, gave it your life blood you may hold it higher regard but why do you fault who do?

[Trail]

if your life is such a bitch,,,stay alive and fight to get even with those who put you through hell

Fact: Not everyone has the strength and balls to that... obviously :rolleyes:

[Crazysix]

wow trail, shit get to you much????? your the one playing the bleeding heart mom the only helps perpetuate such behavior!!!!!!

I think if you bore human life, raised, tended it, gave it your life blood you may hold it higher regard but why do you fault who do? because all that love and tenderness must be stripped away to make a warrior and make no mistake whether your husband is in the Air force or Coast guard they are a warrior, keep that shit at home....If you(I mean anyone)had been a good parent in the 1st place they wouldn't have raised such a weak being, but as it stands, suicide being the easy way out...we should try to understand and bend to help those people...hell no. Put them in a box and let the family pay for the shipping home or mail the remains to the home of record, just as you would do with someone who got a dishonorable.........If you live through it, fine, Get your DD and have a nice day.

Fact: Not everyone has the strength and balls to that... obviously no shit because of people like you that rather hold their hands rather than give em a nice swift kick in the ass

[I Am Luna]

Getting thrown out doesn't make your life horrible, but you are right, it isn't normal. But then again, getting thrown out isn't normal. All the person had to do is just do 4 years, 6 max and then they are home free.

But saying getting thrown out ruins your life is a bit of a blacket statement. I'm sure everyone who got thrown out isn't having a horrible life.

[Richard Burns]

Wait a minute so someone attempting suicide should get a DD but people get DUIs, UA and other crimes and get OTH or even allowed to stay in?

What BS.

[Richard Burns]

Someone who commited suicide should still get a burial with full military honors IMHO.

[Crazysix]

Wait a minute so someone attempting suicide should get a DD but people get DUIs, UA and other crimes and get OTH or even allowed to stay in?

What BS.

BS rich lets see, here hummm those people are not dead and may or maynot still want to serve, and if they cant adapt...well OTH
Suicide type attention whores should be booted, if you dont value your life, or those of the men and women around DD WTF am I gonna do with a corpse unless you have some zombie recipe we dont know about....YOU KILLED YOUR SELF, YOU SHOWED NO HONOR, SO WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE HONOR YOU????
IIRC suicide people(i refuse to call them a victim) families get no SGLI or anything so why pay for the body of the coward to be sent home..

[Crazysix]

Someone who commited suicide should still get a burial with full military honors IMHO.

why?????? the did the most dishonorable thing possible!!!!!! they should get a pine box and a stamp

[Blues]

so what about the people who served honorably in wartime environments and suffer from war injuries or PTSD?

[Crazysix]

so what about the people who served honorably in wartime environments and suffer from war injuries or PTSD?

IF you served in a war zone and suffer from PTSD seek treatment, if you kill yourself in a suicide or attempt to commit such an act......DD no sympathy whats so ever

[Richard Burns]

why?????? the did the most dishonorable thing possible!!!!!! they should get a pine box and a stamp


Because they still served their country while they were alive. The military is not for everyone and you don't really know what it is til you do it.

There are many things much more dishonorble than suicide.

Suicide is a right to be honest.

[Richard Burns]

IF you served in a war zone and suffer from PTSD seek treatment, if you kill yourself in a suicide or attempt to commit such an act......DD no sympathy whats so ever

So somebody who's co fined to a wheelchair the rest of their lives just has to suck it up? Bullshit. In such a sitution where I can never walk again I'm killing myself. No question about it. It's selfish of people yo force somebody to live like that when they want to end it all.

[Richard Burns]

Or you and your buddy are in a firefight. He tries to save your life but you die in his arms. He he's home and still is haunted by it. You guys went thhrough MCT, scoop and deployed together. Like brothers how close you were. He feels guilty about not saving you He snaps and kills himself.

[Crazysix]

Because they still served their country while they were alive. The military is not for everyone and you don't really know what it is til you do it.

There are many things much more dishonorble than suicide.

Suicide is a right to be honest.
and they killed themselves whilst they were serving, bringing discredit to them, their family, coworkers, and unit...not to mention a manpower burden. Waste of money, time and effort. They chose to end their life dishonorably, but yet thousands before them did the right thing be it do their time or take their lumps and go, why should this lowest form neglecting ones responsibility be rewarded.

[Crazysix]

RB you should give up you scenarios are wow anyway, as I said GOD HIM SELF COULD HAVE CAME TO BATTLE FIELD AND TOLD HIM TO KILL HIMSELF, he/she is still a weakling and should not receive any honors.

[abonifi1]

So somebody who's co fined to a wheelchair the rest of their lives just has to suck it up? Bullshit. In such a sitution where I can never walk again I'm killing myself. No question about it. It's selfish of people yo force somebody to live like that when they want to end it all.

Imagine if Stephan Hawkings' did that.

He's confined to a wheelchair.:scratchchin:

[Crazysix]

So somebody who's co fined to a wheelchair the rest of their lives just has to suck it up? Bullshit. In such a sitution where I can never walk again I'm killing myself. No question about it. It's selfish of people yo force somebody to live like that when they want to end it all.

RB really.....ten you are weak, how many handicapped people exist and are successful at life,today because they are not quitters.

You want to kill yourself RB, go ahead, I wouldnt even waste my time to think about you or send condolences to your family, cause the world would be rid of one more selfserving SOB that didnt care about anything but himdself

[Richard Burns]

So how is suicide any different than abortion?

A mother can choose to kill a baby that's not born yet but people can't choose to take their own life without being labled an attention whore?

The thing is suicide is a very grey issue but youre making it black and white. I know you're a very cut and dry kind of guy but this issue is not cut and dry.

Plus you gotta understand the 6 is you have a lot kore training and badassery from what you've done in the Corps than a regulat Chowhall or IPAC Marine would so your ability to deal with pressure is a lot higher.

[Crazysix]

So how is suicide any different than abortion?

A mother can choose to kill a baby that's not born yet but people can't choose to take their own life without being labled an attention whore?

The thing is suicide is a very grey issue but youre making it black and white. I know you're a very cut and dry kind of guy but this issue is not cut and dry.

Plus you gotta understand the 6 is you have a lot kore training and badassery from what you've done in the Corps than a regulat Chowhall or IPAC Marine would so your ability to deal with pressure is a lot higher.

big difference, no one relied on that fetus for anything,!!!!!
and what i have done, has nothing to do with you. Your having problems, I will get you through it, I will not quit on you, but if you quit on me the best you can expect is for me piss on your grave or use you ass a learning objective

[Richard Burns]

big difference, no one relied on that fetus for anything,!!!!!
and what i have done, has nothing to do with you. Your having problems, I will get you through it, I will not quit on you, but if you quit on me the best you can expect is for me piss on your grave.


Now this post I agree with I see what you mean now. Great post I can't argue with you anymore.

You're saying you will help somebody as much as they need but if they kill themselves then they quit on you so **** em?

Did I get that right?

If so we're on the same page now. Good post.

[0341isa]

Wow... not everyone is cut out to be in the military but some come into their own with time, you know this. We obviously have differing views and I know full well that if that was my daughter that I knew so well, who acted completely out of character and took her own life, I damn well would be asking why and demanding answers from superiors as well. I would probably be detained for going bat-shit crazy with anger. Put yourself in the parents shoes and then call your son dishonorable for doing the same thing when you don't know all the facts.

but that exactly the point trail. Its parents trying to deal with the loss of a child and in that confusion, anger, despair or whatever else, they are going to do things like demand answers, they are going to have a strong need to assign blame, find someone at fault, and of course, the person at fault could not possiblly be the "beloved child they just lost"... yadd yadd yadda.

So, sure, the parents reaction might be understandable, and certianly expected, however no amount of grief, despair, or emotion changes the facts.

If thier kid took their own life, that responsibility lies with the kid.

[Crazysix]

Now this post I agree with I see what you mean now. Great post I can't argue with you anymore.

You're saying you will help somebody as much as they need but if they kill themselves then they quit on you so **** em?

Did I get that right?

If so we're on the same page now. Good post.

not only me RB but others too. but now you understand, I believe you can reward a looser but you never reward a quitter. That is one of our societies biggest faults to date

[Trail]

6, first off, **** you. You know me in person and I ALWAYS play the bleeding heart. :rolleyes: Actually you know me better than anyone else on the forum but yet here you are getting personal. That's fine. Just because I won't get into my personal life details on the forum and why I have the stance I do does not make me a squishy, ignorant, weak, lovey dovey, 'Merican housewife and I am not the root of the epidemic. :rolleyes: Life ain't roses and sunshine and I don't need you to remind me of that. Just because I have empathy for a parent loosing a child, why do you fault me? I never said I sympathized either. You're quick to label someone as dishonorable when you do not have the facts! That I do not agree with. That's like me saying you're son is a worthless, no good, piece of shit, brat without even knowing him. (I don't actually think that) I as a parent wouldn't take kindly to it and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

You seem to want to dismiss the fact that mental illness is just that, an illness. Humans are humans, faults and all... military or not. Hell some people can't even hack a 9-5 in the civilian world. You are going to have your "dishonorables" within the military no matter what when you mass enlist the population. IMO, there should be more mental screening before you are allowed to join. It would reduce enlistment numbers though and it would never fly. :rolleyes: So, suicide and people plain loosing it is just going to be a facet of military life and since those people are accepted within the military, they are liable to provide appropriate treatment. The military life actually ex acerbates mental illness so anything that was minute and self manageable can easily become a hopeless situation for the individual.

The Hamby Town incident prefect example of a person pushed to his limits. No body knows that facts of that incident but no one labeled him dishonorable for his actions when he was clearly was not even acting like a decent human being let alone an example of an enlisted military member.

[Trail]

but that exactly the point trail. Its parents trying to deal with the loss of a child and in that confusion, anger, despair or whatever else, they are going to do things like demand answers, they are going to have a strong need to assign blame, find someone at fault, and of course, the person at fault could not possiblly be the "beloved child they just lost"... yadd yadd yadda.

So, sure, the parents reaction might be understandable, and certianly expected, however no amount of grief, despair, or emotion changes the facts.

If thier kid took their own life, that responsibility lies with the kid.

So, you're saying it's ok to jump to the conclusion that the kid is entirely at fault (in V's case, yes I agree) but not ok for the parents to jump to the conclusion that there was something more going on? :scratchchin:

[0341isa]

Another thing getting thrown out of the service makes it pretty hard to have a normal life.

Even Micky Ds asks what kind of discharge you got and I'm sure as soon as they run your SSN it will pop right up.

there is still employment available. Never mind the fact that there are company;s who specifically cater to people with other than honorables. (driving coke trucks I think) either way, there a pretty big point being skipped over here. So you get a BCD, so your wife leaves you, so you whatever other hardship, and now you think you have a difficult time having a good quality of life. Ok, still a tougher life, have we forgotten that the alternative option being discussed is still BEING DEAD?

[Richard Burns]

Maybe Boot Camp is too easy? Maybe DIs should go back to beating the crap out of everyone? Wash more recruits out instead of pushing them through to meet numbers.

Recruiters should screen people better. Maybe so many wouldn't slip through the cracks.

[Crazysix]

6, first off, **** you. You know me in person and ALWAYS play the bleeding heart. :rolleyes: Actually you know me better than anyone else on the forum but yet here you are getting personal. That's fine. Just because I won't get into my personal life details on the forum and why I have the stance I do does not make me a squishy, ignorant, weak, lovey dovey, 'Merican housewife and I am not the root of the epidemic. :rolleyes: Life ain't roses and sunshine and I don't need you to remind me of that. Just because I have empathy for a parent loosing a child, why do you fault me? I never said I sympathized either. You're quick to label someone as dishonorable when you do not have the facts! That I do not agree with. That's like me saying you're son is a worthless, no good, piece of shit, brat without even knowing him. (I don't actually think that) I as a parent wouldn't take kindly to it and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

You seem to want to dismiss the fact that mental illness is just that, an illness. Humans are humans, faults and all... military or not. Hell some people can't even hack a 9-5 in the civilian world. You are going to have your "dishonorables" within the military no matter what when you mass enlist the population. IMO, there should be more mental screening before you are allowed to join. It would reduce enlistment numbers though and it would never fly. :rolleyes: So, suicide and people plain loosing it is just going to be a facet of military life and since those people are accepted within the military, they are liable to provide appropriate treatment. The military life actually ex acerbates mental illness so anything that was minute and self manageable can easily become a hopeless situation for the individual.

The Hamby Town incident prefect example of a person pushed to his limits. No body knows that facts of that incident but no one labeled him dishonorable for his actions when he was clearly was not even acting like a decent human being let alone an example of an enlisted military member.


there are no facts to consider....no matter what another person does to you should be a reason for you to kill yourself, you place a unneeded burden on people around you, when you do.
the fact is you or anyone kills yourself, it is on that person. He had outlets but chose to shut them down because in his mind they didn't care or whatever. OH WELL if successful or failure at suicide, that person hurt all in his life and no one is to blame but him.
I have seen to many" IM lonely. or they are mean to me" type suicides and had to box up quit a few rooms. All i see are the people asking why. why didnt he come to me ect...... and they look at me and my answer is...he/she quit on you, so fuq em......
the hamby town incident, was him acting an ass for attention instead of moving on!!!!!!!
Now as far as getting personal OH well, it wasnt meant to be, but if you took it as such so be it!!!
Biggest thing here why should we reward quitters????


edit..yes i feel bad for mommy and daddy, but somewhere was a failure and it wasnt his command, more of case of failure of him to be man enough to open himself up, adjust and just let shit roll off of his back
but be punk enough to off himself.....NO ever said life is easy(that was on a Marine poster IIRC)

[Richard Burns]

there is still employment available. Never mind the fact that there are company;s who specifically cater to people with other than honorables. (driving coke trucks I think) either way, there a pretty big point being skipped over here. So you get a BCD, so your wife leaves you, so you whatever other hardship, and now you think you have a difficult time having a good quality of life. Ok, still a tougher life, have we forgotten that the alternative option being discussed is still BEING DEAD?


Yes but being dead you don't have to deal with anything. It's a lot easier.

Unless Heaven and Hell turn out to ne real after all.

[0341isa]

Because they still served their country while they were alive. The military is not for everyone and you don't really know what it is til you do it.

There are many things much more dishonorble than suicide.

Suicide is a right to be honest.

if you off yourself while in active duty you DID not complete your term of enlistment honorable. You did not fulfill the time you committed. You want to do you damn four years, and then off yourself the day after you get put? up to you. but while you are in you killing yourself creates a gap and a burden that some other guy ends up having to fill because you decided you couldnt hack it anymore.

[Crazysix]

So, you're saying it's ok to jump to the conclusion that the kid is entirely at fault (in V's case, yes I agree) but not ok for the parents to jump to the conclusion that there was something more going on? :scratchchin:

YES the kid was 100%at fault, ever heard of the term...you can kill me but you cant eat me????
The Parents must accept the fact JR wasnt cut out for thee mil, but did join the copped out instead of going to the doc and saying hey doc i feel like i want off myself or i severely depressed .
The command maybe tough but if 1000 went before you, it cant be that damn bad

[Richard Burns]

True. Suicide is a breech of contract I guess. I never thought of it that way. But more proof that you're just another number to Uncle Sam.

Again why force people to do their time. Why not allow people to put on their notice and quit.

That way you're left with the people who WANT to be there and don't have clowns ruin it for everyone else.

If a unit is deployed than of course one has to finish the deployment but when they come home if they want to quit let em.

I believe the Japanese military allows their members to quit but I'm joy sure of the accuracy in this I'll try to look it up later.

[0341isa]

So, you're saying it's ok to jump to the conclusion that the kid is entirely at fault (in V's case, yes I agree) but not ok for the parents to jump to the conclusion that there was something more going on? :scratchchin:

nothing about jumping to any conclusions. Its clear an obvious that if the parents wnat to blame the military for their kids suicide, its because they want answers and are trying to make sense of a situation.

still the realistic fact is there is no need to "assume" the kid is at fault. He is at fault. In so much as HE took the killing impliment in his own hand, and HE killed HIMSELF. people can push you towards an action, but you have to be the one to do it or not do it.

[Crazysix]

True. Suicide is a breech of contract I guess. I never thought of it that way. But more proof that you're just another number to Uncle Sam.

Again why force people to do their time. Why not allow people to put on their notice and quit.

That way you're left with the people who WANT to be there and don't have clowns ruin it for everyone else.

If a unit is deployed than of course one has to finish the deployment but when they come home if they want to quit let em.

I believe the Japanese military allows their members to quit but I'm joy sure of the accuracy in this I'll try to look it up later.
let see the first clue should have been when they made you learn your ssn inside and out.
In many cases forcing someone to complete a contract will be the first thing they have ever completed in their life and in many times it gives them a stepping stone in life.
Hell no to just quitting...then we would have to lower the standards lower to replace the people that did quit.
besides if you want out there other ways to get out without getting a DD or a BCD, but if you are going to devote so much time in trying to escape...why not just finish your damn time????

[0341isa]

True. Suicide is a breech of contract I guess. I never thought of it that way. But more proof that you're just another number to Uncle Sam.

Again why force people to do their time. Why not allow people to put on their notice and quit.

That way you're left with the people who WANT to be there and don't have clowns ruin it for everyone else.

If a unit is deployed than of course one has to finish the deployment but when they come home if they want to quit let em.

I believe the Japanese military allows their members to quit but I'm joy sure of the accuracy in this I'll try to look it up later.

matter of national security. If people knew they could just quit the military as soon as they decided they didn't like it, what you would actually get is a massive influx of douchebags who would show up for the bennies and paychecks and pack up and leave as soon as the going got rough. The military was never claimed to be an easy life. You have a lot of good days, but there are a shit ton of hard days too. how would the military possibly function if we were like "its ok, if shit gets too hard, just pack up your ball and go home." Hell how many pussies would jump in, try to ride the four years bankking on no conflict, and when war came up and we needed them to actually stand up and fight they'd be all, "uhhh i dont think I feel like being here anymore."

(not much different than the way that certain critical jobs, emergency, law enforcement i think, federal aviation etc are federally barred from going on strikes.)

[Trail]

In Ms.V's case, I AGREE for the second time that he is at fault for not using the medical helped offered/support but for those that whole story is unknown, I stay neutral.

Isa, if I used your "you can push people towards an action but it's their choice to do it or not" mentality, that would mean Charles Manson is off the hook since he never personally killed anyone by his own hand. He was still held accountable for conspiracy to murder though.

[Richard Burns]

Actually Charles Manson shouldn't be on jail if he didn't actually kill people himself that is.

Just as hiring a hitman to kill someone shouldn't land you in jail either because YOU didn't kill anyone.

JMHO. My opinion NOT fact.

There.

[Richard Burns]

Again Conspiracy to commit murder should not be a crime. Or at least they should not get the same exact punishment as the actual killer.

[Richard Burns]

So why are officers allowed to quit at Boot Camp? That's not fair at all. Thy can even graduate and refuse their commision and they're golden.

Why not make them do their contracts as enlisted?

[Crazysix]

In Ms.V's case, I AGREE for the second time that he is at fault for not using the medical helped offered/support but for those that whole story is unknown, I stay neutral.

Isa, if I used your "you can push people towards an action but it's their choice to do it or not" mentality, that would mean Charles Manson is off the hook since he never personally killed anyone by his own hand. He was still held accountable for conspiracy to murder though.

charles Manson and some hump killing himself cause he was non hacker are two totally different examples:-|
damn whether he was rode hard, constantly messed up or was a stellar Marine has nothing to play into why SNM, decided he wanted to kill himself, quit, run back to mommy and daddy. NO ONE CAN MAKE YOU KILL YOURSELF BUT YOU.
Thats like if i said to you trail go get in tub and slice your wrist but make sure you go up the veins instead of just hitting the wrist, and you do it....its your fault for doing it not mine.......

Yall should be thankful im not a suicide councelor or on the suicide hotline LMAO

[canjap02]

How about this Q. When is it ok to kill yourself? Me I never think of suicide. My dad and uncle did it and its the cowards way out of shitty situtions(sp?) I think the only ok time would be if your brain dead.

[Richard Burns]

Actually I wish you were a suicide hotline guy. I'd call for the hell of it cuz that shot would be funny as ****.

[Crazysix]

I think it is waste of time and money for these sucide prevention programs in the military..........yes teach leaders to look out for the signs but thats it....I dont have time all day to play dr phil, to a few whilst the masses await leadership and guidence. Teach me tactics, how to accomplish my mission, take care of the troops that do care, not baby sit poor little joe schmuk......If you have problems come to me I shouldnt have to actively seek you out

[Richard Burns]

How about this Q. When is it ok to kill yourself? Me I never think of suicide. My dad and uncle did it and its the cowards way out of shitty situtions(sp?) I think the only ok time would be if your brain dead.


I assume you mean if you're on life support and having your family pull the plug. In that case it's not suicide. It's letting yourself die of natural causes.

I actually have a letter written up that basically if somethingwere to ever happen to me they can't shock me, no CPR, no life support etc. If I'm gonna go let me go.

[Crazysix]

How about this Q. When is it ok to kill yourself? Me I never think of suicide. My dad and uncle did it and its the cowards way out of shitty situtions(sp?) I think the only ok time would be if your brain dead.

NEVER, if you are braindead that is decision made by some one else not you :rolleyes::rolleyes:
this is geared more to mil community, but even in civvies life I feel the same should hold true

[0341isa]

Suicide is a quitters way out. period.

Oh, what if life get so hard that...?

Exaclty. To commit suicide is to decide that either
a. I have something undesireable happening in my life and I admit I am unable or unwilling to make the effort neccessary to improve my life

or

b. The discomfort in my life is something that I admit I do not have the preserverance or stamina to outlast, so I quit. Even though hardships are temporary and death is permanent, i refuse to stick out this hardship.

Either way its quitting.

Yes, there are some hypothetical exceptions, but they are very specific and outside the real spirit of this debate.

Specifically, excruciating illness, POW situations, and possibly living with catsrophic injuries (like losing both legs or something) though many people adjust to that as well.

BTW, terminal illness doesnt even count IMHO, since knowing you have terminal illness means the choice to die has already been made for you, you simply choose the duration.

[Crazysix]

Actually I wish you were a suicide hotline guy. I'd call for the hell of it cuz that shot would be funny as ****.

yeah call if you want and all YOU would get would be an answering machine directing you to the airforce

[Trail]

As said earlier, mental screen should be more rigorous before you are allowed to enlist! It should more than just a record check. A lot of problem people could, could, be by-passed. Then again there is a meatbag slot that needs to be filled and death knows no discrimination.

[Crazysix]

Suicide is a quitters way out. period.

Oh, what if life get so hard that...?

Exaclty. To commit suicide is to decide that either
a. I have something undesireable happening in my life and I admit I am unable or unwilling to make the effort neccessary to improve my life

or

b. The discomfort in my life is something that I admit I do not have the preserverance or stamina to outlast, so I quit. Even though hardships are temporary and death is permanent, i refuse to stick out this hardship.

Either way its quitting.

Yes, there are some hypothetical exceptions, but they are very specific and outside the real spirit of this debate.

Specifically, excruciating illness, POW situations, and possibly living with catsrophic injuries (like losing both legs or something) though many people adjust to that as well.

BTW, terminal illness doesnt even count IMHO, since knowing you have terminal illness means the choice to die has already been made for you, you simply choose the duration.

in this case i say do all the crazy shit you ever wanted to do cause at least you know the finish line is rapidly approaching

[Trail]

I assume you mean if you're on life support and having your family pull the plug. In that case it's not suicide. It's letting yourself die of natural causes.

I actually have a letter written up that basically if somethingwere to ever happen to me they can't shock me, no CPR, no life support etc. If I'm gonna go let me go.

It's called a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) and it will need to be notarized by a lawyer in order to be honored BTW. Even then there are loop holes the medical field will be use to get around it to their job.

[Crazysix]

As said earlier, mental screen should be more rigorous before you are allowed to enlist! It should more than just a record check. A lot of problem people could, could, be by-passed. Then again there is a meatbag slot that needs to be filled and death knows no discrimination.

hey now your getting it

[0341isa]

In Ms.V's case, I AGREE for the second time that he is at fault for not using the medical helped offered/support but for those that whole story is unknown, I stay neutral.

Isa, if I used your "you can push people towards an action but it's their choice to do it or not" mentality, that would mean Charles Manson is off the hook since he never personally killed anyone by his own hand. He was still held accountable for conspiracy to murder though.

perfect example trail. You can push some towards action but you cannot make them do it. Yes, Charles Manson has some responsibility for his inciting murder, as does he have some responsibility for facilitating murders, however non of that in any way absolves the actual people who did the killing of their guilt now does it?

[Trail]

hey now your getting it

I understand workings of the military but it does always mean I agree with certain mentalities. :D Pfft, to think you lumped me in with the lovely dovey housewives....

[Trail]

perfect example trail. You can push some towards action but you cannot make them do it. Yes, Charles Manson has some responsibility for his inciting murder, as does he have some responsibility for facilitating murders, however non of that in any way absolves the actual people who did the killing of their guilt now does it?

Agreed but is the person doing the pushing towards someone suicide not guilty to an extent? I understand and agreed that no one killed these kids but themselves. I'm just saying there MAYBE more to it that just some snot-nosed brat not hacking it.

[Crazysix]

I understand workings of the military but it does always mean I agree with certain mentalities. :D Pfft, to think you lumped me in with the lovely dovey housewives....

well yes i did and i still do.....sorry!!!!! The inner workings of the military are set forth by standards that have worked and these that dont apply are revised. These standards help promote good order and discipline all in the name of mission accomplishment. Though personal welfare and family play a part in these standards they are not the driving factors toward mission accomplishment:army:

[0341isa]

ooh so heres some existential shit for tha ss to ponder :) :

What if suicide is an implement of natural selection? Remember survival of the fittest. What if suicide is one mor emethod for the chemically imbalanced orrr those lacking whats neccessary to maintain or succeed to intentionally die off?

It wouldn't be the only case of members of a species self correcting. I mean kind of like the concept that sometimes a fetus that isn't right will simply "self abort" in the womb? Or an animal that is wounded badly enough or terminally F* up will go crawl off somewhere and find a comfy spot and just refuse to eat.

Is suicide human self correction? hmmmmm.....

[Haru-sa]

suicide = Darwin in action

I try to not work against the culling of the herd when it's the herd culling itself. I mean, I'm not gonna buy you the gun to off yourself, but I ain't gonna risk gettin' shot tryin' to stop you either.

[Crazysix]

Agreed but is the person doing the pushing towards someone suicide not guilty to an extent? I understand and agreed that no one killed these kids but themselves. I'm just saying there MAYBE more to it that just some snot-nosed brat not hacking it.

so they can blame his leaders, they were too hard cause they took his libo away,
they can blame the Unit, combat shouldnt be its first priority,
they can blame the Corps, the gung ho mentality is not good to coodle the young and weak
the list goes on and on
but funny no wants to blame him for being plain weak, selfish ,and childish

think of the bad ass kid in the px that throws a tantrum when he doesnt get a toy...........parents want to talk to johnny and hold him to calm him down
reality Johnny need his little bad ass kicked and you will never have this problem in again

now substitute johnny for lcpl xxx
parents for leadership
Px for military

get my point???

[Crazysix]

ooh so heres some existential shit for tha ss to ponder :) :

What if suicide is an implement of natural selection? Remember survival of the fittest. What if suicide is one mor emethod for the chemically imbalanced orrr those lacking whats neccessary to maintain or succeed to intentionally die off?

It wouldn't be the only case of members of a species self correcting. I mean kind of like the concept that sometimes a fetus that isn't right will simply "self abort" in the womb? Or an animal that is wounded badly enough or terminally F* up will go crawl off somewhere and find a comfy spot and just refuse to eat.

Is suicide human self correction? hmmmmm.....

good point but who do you blame for that??? the dr, or mom and dads f'ed up genes

[Trail]

well yes i did and i still do.....sorry!!!!! The inner workings of the military are set forth by standards that have worked and these that dont apply are revised. These standards help promote good order and discipline all in the name of mission accomplishment. Though personal welfare and family play a part in these standards they are not the driving factors toward mission accomplishment:army:

Right right right... I wasn't "issued" with the gear there for I am not needed but I am an integral part since I keep the troop happy, fed, bathed, and well minded to the best of my said ability. :grin1:

[0341isa]

Agreed but is the person doing the pushing towards someone suicide not guilty to an extent? I understand and agreed that no one killed these kids but themselves. I'm just saying there MAYBE more to it that just some snot-nosed brat not hacking it.

that case could at least be presented but then again, to relate it to the manson case, Manson was explicitly like "theres a guy, heres a weapon, GO KILL HIM."

Are we insinutating that this kid's unit was like "hey pvt. Take this and kill yourself!"

Orrr are we trying to make a case that by "making life hard on this kid" we made him decide to kill himself. Still a BS argument.

To relate THAT type of argument to the Manson inciting murder parrallel, we would have to claim that, for example" If BOB talks enough shit to you about another person that you hate them and decide to go kill them, then its now somehow BOB's fault you killed them"

[Crazysix]

suicide = Darwin in action

I try to not work against the culling of the herd when it's the herd culling itself. I mean, I'm not gonna buy you the gun to off yourself, but I ain't gonna risk gettin' shot tryin' to stop you either.

good point but when you buy the gun and the parent want to blame your coworkers.......what sense does that make???

[Crazysix]

Right right right... I wasn't "issued" with the gear there for I am not needed but I am an integral part since I keep the troop happy, fed, bathed, and well minded to the best of my said ability. :grin1:

realistically speaking you are not needed at all, all of what you said you do at home he could do on his own with the tools the UNCLE SAM provides him. you are the DLC of military life

[0341isa]

Right right right... I wasn't "issued" with the gear there for I am not needed but I am an integral part since I keep the troop happy, fed, bathed, and well minded to the best of my said ability. :grin1:

well that was always nice for those troops that wanted to go home every weekend, take thier laundry home to momma, and not cut the cord.

As for those of us like myself, who decided to be a man when I became a man,

As a troop, being 18 or over, with a job, a paycheck, and the responsibilites of an adult as scoiety claimed I was...I kept myself fed and bathed and well minded to the best of my own ability. Keeping myself happy was MY resposibility, not my mom's.

[Trail]

that case could at least be presented but then again, to relate it to the manson case, Manson was explicitly like "theres a guy, heres a weapon, GO KILL HIM."

Are we insinutating that this kid's unit was like "hey pvt. Take this and kill yourself!"

Orrr are we trying to make a case that by "making life hard on this kid" we made him decide to kill himself. Still a BS argument.

To relate THAT type of argument to the Manson inciting murder parrallel, we would have to claim that, for example" If BOB talks enough shit to you about another person that you hate them and decide to go kill them, then its now somehow BOB's fault you killed them"

Ok, in the BOB example, what has our own government convinced us to hate and fight against? :scratchchin: We are fighting a rich man's war that we shouldn't be fighting. Let the Middle East implode upon itself or nuke the hell out of it and call it good.

Again, I have agreed repeatedly the kid is to blame for his actions but there two sides to a coin. This one just so happen to land before anyone got to see if it was heads or tails on each side.

[Haru-sa]

good point but when you buy the gun and the parent want to blame your coworkers.......what sense does that make???

you can't innoculate against stupid. some people are looking to shift blame rather than accept it...

[Crazysix]

you can't innoculate against stupid. some people are looking to shift blame rather than accept it...

x10 thanks

[Trail]

well that was always nice for those troops that wanted to go home every weekend, take thier laundry home to momma, and not cut the cord.

As for those of us like myself, who decided to be a man when I became a man,

As a troop, being 18 or over, with a job, a paycheck, and the responsibilites of an adult as scoiety claimed I was...I kept myself fed and bathed and well minded to the best of my own ability. Keeping myself happy was MY resposibility, not my mom's.

Dude, I was referring to being a spouse but the momma role unfortunately comes into play as well. :rolleyes:

[OtisPMerriweather]

I just personally feel that right now, at this very moment, I have friends who are trying their BEST to stay alive in a shit hole country when they could be at home chilling. Yet, this dumbass wants to kill himself. Why don't we have some kind of kamikaze unit for these dumbasses?

Oh, and C6, GET RID OF THE DAMN SIGNATURE PIC!!!!!!

[Crazysix]

Ok, in the BOB example, what has our own government convinced us to hate and fight against? :scratchchin: We are fighting a rich man's war that we shouldn't be fighting. Let the Middle East implode upon itself or nuke the hell out of it and call it good.

Again, I have agreed repeatedly the kid is to blame for his actions but there two sides to a coin. This one just so happen to land before anyone got to see if it was heads or tails on each side.

not your call or military member's his job is to follow the orders of those above him, not to try/kill themselves for attention or force osmeone else to take thier place.
there is no other side of this coin:rolleyes:
well it dosen't matter his ass will be bounced out anyway, MOM will cry foul and life for the normal population will continue

[dk]

Fer cryin' out loud......how many other military folk have someone around who calls them to see if they're all right, visiting them now & then, caring about how they're doing, feeling.......I know depression exists, but damn. Tell him to quit and go back to momma.

"You weren't there for him"........that pisses me off. I woulda call that so-called friend up and told her **** YOU. People and their guilt trips.
This, however, I agree with whole-heartedly.

**** you indeed, momma.

[canjap02]

sorry in the case of brain dead its someone else doing the plug pulling for you. I just didnt have time to fininsh I had a class to teach. MOre what I think is if I get to the point were Im to old or something to walk, shit, eat, move etc by myself, then Id take myself out of the picture. Since I dont beliave in any type of god, I dont have to worry about going to hell.

[0341isa]

Ok, in the BOB example, what has our own government convinced us to hate and fight against? :scratchchin: We are fighting a rich man's war that we shouldn't be fighting. Let the Middle East implode upon itself or nuke the hell out of it and call it good.

Again, I have agreed repeatedly the kid is to blame for his actions but there two sides to a coin. This one just so happen to land before anyone got to see if it was heads or tails on each side.

Ok, now this stands for debate on several counts.

1. i don't see how it applies to the suicide discussion.

2. I wouldn't say our government has taught us to HATE anything. At least not from the militry perspective. Sure hate terrorists, but who doesnt already hate terrorists. Now middle eastern civilians? Arent they trying to limit that type of thinking, with all this nationbuilding, core values, dont kill innocents stuff. If I had to hear the speech about how "Iraqis are not our enemy but our enemy hides among them..." one more time....

3. As for fighting a rich man's war that we shouldn't be fighting... That could be stated, but thats an opinon for each individual. The hard truth of it is, arent most wars "rich men's wars"? And are they really so wrong? People like to walk around with this fantasy that militaries are only supposed to go fight when the nation is threatened by violence from outside etc, etc.

The truth is all the reasons we protest the governement fighting over, economic interests, oil, money, natural resources, trade routes, political influence on other nations...etc etc, THAT stuff is what "preserves the way of life" that a nations citizens enjoy without thinking about it. If the "rich man" wasn't constantly trying to secure his nations share of the world oil supply, would the "poor man" still be able to heat his home, drive his car, keep his job at the factory that needs those resources at a business viable cost?

Many people voice this idea the the US or other countries should "mind their own business and leave other o****ries alone" but the fact is, eveything is global. The stuff that happens in one country will at some point affect even the individual citizen at home. Thus every country in the world with enough power does everything it can to manipulate the world stage in a way that best benefits its own interests. Been that way for centuries. So is there really a such thing as a "rich man's war?"

[0341isa]

Dude, I was referring to being a spouse but the momma role unfortunately comes into play as well. :rolleyes:

oh, spouse. Ok. That is different. At the very least you do provide a certain "happiness" that neither that servicemember nor the military should be providing ;) (though actually some might argue that individual servicemembers Do attempt to service themselves regularly, and further that at least the Marine Corps is know to try and provide said service through the application of a certain "big green" device that will go unnamed...:rolleyes:)

[Spadesy]

So why are officers allowed to quit at Boot Camp? That's not fair at all. Thy can even graduate and refuse their commision and they're golden.

Why not make them do their contracts as enlisted?

I imagine because officers, pretty much being the thinkers and directionists of the military, MUST be all-volunteer, in addition to wanting to be there (receive their comm.), which equals high-quality personnel.

[Mizzes V]

I have seen to many" IM lonely. or they are mean to me" type suicides and had to box up quit a few rooms. All i see are the people asking why. why didnt he come to me ect...... and they look at me and my answer is...he/she quit on you, so fuq em......

That was exactly something my friend said, but everytime he went to our house we made sure to let him know our house was his house. I looked once at his eyes and told him : COME TO US WHEN YOU NEED IT!..

I was feeling bad earlier, but then I felt mad because after the scare feeling, all I wanna do is look at his face and asked him : why!!..

And if its easier for his mom to blame us and his unit, well okay...

His mom wasnt here ( in okinawa ) many times she called me telling me to get ahold of him to tell him to call her..

And I did more than 3-4 times ( we called him at his barracks ). I felt the last time that he didnt want to talk to her..He basically said he was trying to move on on his own path.

And I felt also I was being too pushy about his mom and maybe thats why he didnt want to come over my place..( cause of my insist about the subject )

And look how things turned now...Oh well..

[abonifi1]

That was exactly something my friend said, but everytime he went to our house we made sure to let him know our house was his house. I looked once at his eyes and told him : COME TO US WHEN YOU NEED IT!..



And I felt also I was being too pushy about his mom and maybe thats why he didnt want to come over my place..( cause of my insist about the subject )

And look how things turned now...Oh well..

Denial — "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."
Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual.

Anger — "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"
Bargaining — "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."
Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die . . . What's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."


You are almost there V

[abonifi1]

Explain me please..I didnt get it..

Its the five stages of death (I believe originally outlined by the bok Ordinary People), both the dying, and the those who have loved family members and friends go through it, although each stage will last a different ammount of time for different people, everyone goes through them, untill acceptance.

[Mizzes V]

Haha, I got it..Took me a sec.or 2..

[Kye77]

19. Still a child. Far away from home. Alone.

If he was driven to do it by people, those people will only have those deeds to answer for. IMO, it isn't easy to commit suicide. He must have had plenty of resolve or he was just totally out of it. Tragic. He lost his life. That's sad enough. Let's not talk ill of the dead.

[Richard Burns]

Suicide is a right. Why should someone stay alive for everybody else? What about what they want?

If you people really think there's nothing worth committing suicide over than you're clueless.

[Richard Burns]

I think suicide and euthanasia should both be legalized and clinics made where you can off yourself painfree.

[Kye77]

Suicide is tragic no matter what you say. It may not be tragic to the person who does the deed but to those who mourn it.

Clueless? Yes, that is preferable. Duh, who wants that sort of experience.

[proudtobnotpc]

Suicide is a right. Why should someone stay alive for everybody else? What about what they want?

If you people really think there's nothing worth committing suicide over than you're clueless.

sorry but you are way off on this one. Suicide is a pussys way out for someone that THINKS its that bad. In their wake they leave allot of pain and misery for the rest of us to deal with. Personal experience has taught me this

[Bones]

With you 100% on that one.:army:

[Richard Burns]

But what if a person has nobody that cares about them? Is it okay then?

[0341isa]

all this talk about death and yet some things just will not die....

like this thread...
http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/miah/WindowsLiveWriter/Enti.NETRoleProviderReadtheMSDNFinePrint_B6B5/Blank-Facepalm_2.gif

[dk]

But what if a person has nobody that cares about them? Is it okay then?

Dude, it's your life, as selfish as that is. You're not going to go to hell if you kill yourself, nor are you going to go to heaven. It sucks that you'd end up leaving people behind but it is your life, 100%. It is a good thing to be responsible for your family, but for those people who just can't take it anymore, whatever. Do what you need to do.

That's MY own opinion. Tired of people who say it's their way or the highway. Seriously, anyone here being against suicide is not going to be able to shame one away from doing it... There are different angles of approach than shame...

[dk]

all this talk about death and yet some things just will not die....

like this thread...
http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/miah/WindowsLiveWriter/Enti.NETRoleProviderReadtheMSDNFinePrint_B6B5/Blank-Facepalm_2.gif

Or this month...

Well, finally, in 55 minutes. Horrible month. Wish it would have shot itself in the face around September 5th...

[OtisPMerriweather]

What if people who try to kill themselves and fail were charged with attempted murder?

[Richard Burns]

Dude, it's your life, as selfish as that is. You're not going to go to hell if you kill yourself, nor are you going to go to heaven. It sucks that you'd end up leaving people behind but it is your life, 100%. It is a good thing to be responsible for your family, but for those people who just can't take it anymore, whatever. Do what you need to do.

That's MY own opinion. Tired of people who say it's their way or the highway. Seriously, anyone here being against suicide is not going to be able to shame one away from doing it... There are different angles of approach than shame...
Finally someone sees the truth in all of this. Your post has too much reality in it though. Might be a bit much for the far right and biblethumping / neo old skool croud. Lol.

[Richard Burns]

What if people who try to kill themselves and fail were charged with attempted murder?

Then that would be a sad day in the US and another sign of the end of freedom and liberty.

It's THEIR right. It's not murder or attempted murder because it's them hurting themselves.

[dk]

What if people who try to kill themselves and fail were charged with attempted murder?

Then that'd just be retarded.

[OtisPMerriweather]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMWB1Qo6QX0&feature=player_embedded#t=48

[dk]

It's THEIR right.

Suicide is your right as an intelligent animal. Not even just a right of being a human. I guarantee if we find intelligent life outside of our solar system, they too will have a word for suicide...

This article shows that animals will engage in self-termination but refuses to classify it as suicide... http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_any_animals_other_than_humans_commit_suicide

Some animals, such as birds and mammals display obvious signs of emotions such as happiness, excitement but also sadness, depression, and loneliness. When driven to extremes animals will terminate their own lives be it by starvation, suffocation, or blunt force trauma. The most common type of animal self-termination is that in which an animal (like a dog) forms a very strong bond with either a human being or another an animal and then loses that significant other. Many intelligent animals form such bonds and they engage in a broad array of behaviors indicating that they are aware of the absence of their companion. For example, dogs in such situations sometimes go into depression and reject food and attention until they eventually die. The inactivity caused by depression is not the same as suicide, even though it may lead to death. If dogs were to actively engage in behavior that would obviously lead to their own demise, like throwing themselves under cars or running off cliffs, then this could indicate awareness of death and thus be considered suicide. A much more plausible explanation for the fatal inactivity of dogs and other intelligent mammals is that they are paralyzed by feelings of grief and loss. Observed behavior does not suggest that they know that their lives will cease.

It has also been observed that, under the right circumstances, scorpions will commit suicide by repeatedly stinging themselves in the head. These circumstances generally involving very high temperature situations. This behavior is likely an attempt by the scorpion to use its neural toxin to alleviate its current discomfort. Because scorpions show no other signs of being aware that such a thing as death exists, we have no reason to call this suicide.

However you want to classify it, it's suicide. Especially in the scorpion example. It's taking your life to get out of a painful situation you cannot deal with.

[Richard Burns]

What if people who try to kill themselves and fail were charged with attempted murder?


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z156/donutmikey/Funny/facepalm_implied.jpg

[TheLastDon]

I like how hamsters eat their newborn!

[OtisPMerriweather]

I can relate. Sometimes I feel like repeatedly stinging myself in the head while reading some of the posts on this forum.

[dk]

I can relate. Sometimes I feel like repeatedly stinging myself in the head while reading some of the posts on this forum.

I feel like repeatedly stinging myself in the face when I see some of the things I see at work... lol.

It's been like that at every job, though. Someone needs to hurry up and make me boss of the whole world so I can fix shit. I'd run the world like I run the forums. There'd be gladiators and clowns too.

[OtisPMerriweather]

LOL. RB, you calling something I said f-ing retarded? Now that's worth the price of admission.

[Richard Burns]

LOL. RB, you calling something I said f-ing retarded? Now that's worth the price of admission.

I really didn't want to do it but you set yourself up for it with that proposal of yours. :thumbup:

[dk]

That was pretty retarded, Otis. lol.

[TheLastDon]

No, what Otis said is a law somewhere, I think.

[dk]

No, what Otis said is a law somewhere, I think.

That's a pretty retarded law then, ror.

[TheLastDon]

That's a pretty retarded law then, ror.

You know I would google it but I'm busy posting on another Okinawa forum. :)

[Richard Burns]

That's a pretty retarded law then, ror.


Yea. It reminds me of that law that says weed is illegal. Damn asinine laws are out there.

[OtisPMerriweather]

It's the Baker Act. You won't get charged with attempted murder, but you can be "involuntarily committed."

You get to go to crazy jail. Same net effect.

[Richard Burns]

It's the Baker Act. You won't get charged with attempted murder, but you can be "involuntarily committed."

You get to go to crazy jail. Same net effect.

It's a retarded law too. It's just another example of government overstepping their bounds.

[Richard Burns]

You know I would google it but I'm busy posting on another Okinawa forum. :)

Well you have all the time to do so now becuase you just got the ban cannon. :thumbup:


You are more than welcome to be a member if you behave.

[TheLastDon]

Well you have all the time to do so now becuase you just got the ban cannon. :thumbup:


You are more than welcome to be a member if you behave.

Huh? what are you talking about?

[OtisPMerriweather]

lol, you just got banned from Okinawa Freedom!

[P_chan]

lol, you just got banned from okinawa freedom!

stop the censorship!

[0341isa]

For example, dogs in such situations sometimes go into depression and reject food and attention until they eventually die. The inactivity caused by depression is not the same as suicide, even though it may lead to death. If dogs were to actively engage in behavior that would obviously lead to their own demise, like throwing themselves under cars or running off cliffs, then this could indicate awareness of death and thus be considered suicide. A much more plausible explanation for the fatal inactivity of dogs and other intelligent mammals is that they are paralyzed by feelings of grief and loss. Observed behavior does not suggest that they know that their lives will cease.
It has also been observed that, under the right circumstances, scorpions will commit suicide by repeatedly stinging themselves in the head. These circumstances generally involving very high temperature situations. This behavior is likely an attempt by the scorpion to use its neural toxin to alleviate its current discomfort. Because scorpions show no other signs of being aware that such a thing as death exists, we have no reason to call this suicide.
However you want to classify it, it's suicide. Especially in the scorpion example. It's taking your life to get out of a painful situation you cannot deal with.

Does not = suicide to me. Suicide = taking in action with the sole purpose and intent of dying, especially when you would otherwise have the chance to live.
In the dog example, the dog loses the will to do basic funtions neccessary to life, but the dog doesn't go (damn what can I do so that I can die...?)

As for the scorpion example, 1. its speculated that the scorpion wants to use its own venom to "neutralize the pain" so, when the scorpion dies, would it not be more of a drug OD than a suicide attempt. 2. If the scorpion is trapped in the extreme heat, to the point that it starts stinging itself to deal with the pain, would the scorpion have a viable chance to survive anyways?

Kind of like, If I get trapped in a burning room/vehicle etc with no percievable way out, and I shoot myself before burning to death, is that really "suicide"?

[0341isa]

What if people who try to kill themselves and fail were charged with attempted murder?

I believe this happens in some states

[Richard Burns]

I believe this happens in some states

This is a travesty to liberty and should never be a law.

[Trail]

There is a reason this thread is in the trenches. TO DIE! Nobody really cares what you think RB or what you think is right. We all have our own morals, ways of thinking, and I doubt you hold your argument well enough to sway anyone.

[Richard Burns]

There is a reason this thread is in the trenches. TO DIE! Nobody really cares what you think RB or what you think is right. We all have our own morals, ways of thinking, and I doubt you hold your argument well enough to sway anyone.

What a bunch of crap. I have just as much right to post my opinion as anyone else here. The difference is I post what people may think but don't talk about.

You guys didn't change my view. But you guts did explain yourself well. Everyone brought up very good points.

I just don't agree. I think all of us have conteplated suicide at least once in our lifetime. But most people don't act on it.

But I just find if absurd that we don't have the right to choose when and how we want to die.

[Richard Burns]

There is a reason this thread is in the trenches. TO DIE! Nobody really cares what you think RB or what you think is right. We all have our own morals, ways of thinking, and I doubt you hold your argument well enough to sway anyone.

Btw I didn't bring this thread back from the dead. Someone else did so you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Trail]

It was Bones. He doesn't count... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You do have a choice to how you die and when. If you commit suicide, just about 50% of JU would think you are a selfish pussy for doing so. The law would also have a say since we the people help establish the government that represses us. We elected the officials, Representatives, the senators, the President... start hating on the people that support the crooked people in the system, not the system it self.

[0341isa]

What a bunch of crap. I have just as much right to post my opinion as anyone else here. The difference is I post what people may think but don't talk about.

You guys didn't change my view. But you guts did explain yourself well. Everyone brought up very good points.

I just don't agree. I think all of us have conteplated suicide at least once in our lifetime. But most people don't act on it.

But I just find if absurd that we don't have the right to choose when and how we want to die.

ISA <---- Has never contemplated suicide.

(however ISA <--- has contemplated homocide. No, seriously.)

[Richard Burns]

Errr tell me about it. If only homicide was legal I tell ya. Lmao.

[Richard Burns]

Trail,
The people don't elect the president. It's the electoral college that does. The people's votes have no barring. FYI.

[Richard Burns]

Also I didn't vote for anyone in my government. I'm not Japanese so I don't have voting rights. I don't live in America.

[Trail]

Trail,
The people don't elect the president. It's the electoral college that does. The people's votes have no barring. FYI.

Essentially we do since we elect our state representatives that make the vote for the electoral college.

[dk]

It was Bones. He doesn't count... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You do have a choice to how you die and when. If you commit suicide, just about 50% of JU would think you are a selfish pussy for doing so. The law would also have a say since we the people help establish the government that represses us. We elected the officials, Representatives, the senators, the President... start hating on the people that support the crooked people in the system, not the system it self.
And the other 50% won't. :)

Besides, my opinion is the only opinion that matters. And I'm with you on this one, RB.

[OtisPMerriweather]

Trail,
The people don't elect the president. It's the electoral college that does. The people's votes have no barring. FYI.

LOL, Trail got pwned! :D










:rolleyes:

[SnaFu]

Been watching this thread for a while. Then I felt the need to sleep on it even longer.

Strickly from the human emotion point of view, I believe that everyone does in fact have a breaking point. I see no constructive point in in discussing the thresholds of individuals.

From that perspective I do not belive that anyone who has not reached their own threshold is qualified to pass such calious judgement on another regarding the issue of suicide.