I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Please enlighten me.

[bokuwa]

Unless you are a subject of Japan or gave up you citizenship from your home country to become a Japanese citizen, you have no citizen rights.

The constitution of Japan refers to subjects of Japan and citizens;

Following the enactment of the Constitution, there were disputes regarding whether the Constitution protected the human rights of "foreign nationals." It is now considered that all of the rights that can be applied to foreigners should be provided equally to them. Currently, there are individual, concrete points of contention regarding (1) which and to what extent human rights provisions should be guaranteed to foreign nationals, and (2) if it is necessary to define the human rights that are protected in various categories to satisfy the wide variety of foreigners ranging from tourists passing through Japan temporarily to those who have settled down in Japan and have status of special permanent residence.

In America, citizens are always upset with the flow of aliens into the country and many say they should be deported and not allowed to stay and so on.

What is the difference here in Japan? Japanese people have their right to complain about foreignors just like in America, who are not Japanese citizens.

We are just guests in Japan and should behave like good ones and respect the culture that is here, not try to impose western standards because we think that works best

Question I would like to know more about is, If things were not the way they should be in the place you picked to be, then why did you come in the first place? To change it to what you think it should be? If you have major complaints or concerns about the place why stay. .

[dk]

The only real complaints I have about Okinawa are from me seeing what it was like growing up here to what it is now.

Well, that and the few rediculously pathetic things that just don't go away. Like the island being so poor and unemployed and saying publically that they want this place to be a tourism hotspot and then seeing what they ACTUALLY do to the place.

This is my home. I've only lived elsewhere 6 years out of the almost 29 years I've been alive. So I feel I have a right to complain.

[bokuwa]

The only real complaints I have about Okinawa are from me seeing what it was like growing up here to what it is now.

I can understand your thoughts from my own experiences over the years with different places I have been in my life, including where I grew up.

Well, that and the few rediculously pathetic things that just don't go away. Like the island being so poor and unemployed and saying publically that they want this place to be a tourism hotspot and then seeing what they ACTUALLY do to the place.

As a life time resident I can understand your frustrations with the progress and all.
My living here now brings me to the same train of thought. I would like to see better things for the future.


This is my home. I've only lived elsewhere 6 years out of the almost 29 years I've been alive. So I feel I have a right to complain.

Yes, you do. And don't be bitter about what I am going to say. I say it as a matter of fact not to be against your thoughts. Have you applied or gotten Japanese citizenship to be able to vote and promote your opinions in the elections?

People in America complain about things and how they should change, but don't go to the polls all the time to voice their opinions, I am one of them by the way. So, if things don't change on a certain issue that I did nothing to help change or try to change, I am really out in the cold.

Please don't get upset about what I wrote. I am not saying I have the answers or that the way I think about things is the only way to think. :confused:

[dk]

No problem. But I'm not going to become a Japanese citizen just so I can complain about issues I feel strongly about. It wouldn't matter anyway really. Even if I became 100% Japanese according to paperwork, I'd still be white as white in their eyes.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Well said, bokuwa, and I agree with you up until the following:

We are just guests in Japan and should behave like good ones and respect the culture that is here, not try to impose western standards because we think that works best

We can't impose our standards, and I don't see anyone trying to impose them. There is a difference between "imposing" and "affecting", and surely anyone in any country of the world should try to affect those cultures that engage in practices that are based on prejudice or those that cause suffering.

I for one am glad that foreignors have been trying to affect Sub-Saharan cultures by trying to get them to discontinue female genital mutilation. If Martin Luther King had been a British citizen, I would have welcomed his coming to the U.S. to affect our racist culture of the 50s and 60s, just as I am glad that activists affected South Africa to end apartheid (imposing on their culture of choice) by getting so many multinational companies to divest of their interests there.

Question I would like to know more about is, If things were not the way they should be in the place you picked to be, then why did you come in the first place? To change it to what you think it should be? If you have major complaints or concerns about the place why stay. .

It's complicated. Many ex-pats have a love-hate relationship with the country they have decided to reside in. Many, before learning the language and culture just did not see all that was wrong when they opted to settle down and grow roots, so they just did not know that things were not how they should be. However, once the novelty wears off and they begin to see the negative aspect of the society, and all societies do have them, by that time they have invested a large portion of their life there/here.

Sure, they could uproot their lives in a drastic way by leaving and trading the problems of this society for another they move to, or, they could be more pragmatic -- stay and work to affect the society in a way that is for the better. Voicing concern about what is wrong, which some may call complaining or griping, is one way affect that. There is nothing wrong or disrespectful in doing so, so long as it is done in a civil and cordial tone of manner.

[bokuwa]

YOU WROTE;
It's complicated. Many ex-pats have a love-hate relationship with the country they have decided to reside in. Many, before learning the language and culture just did not see all that was wrong when they opted to settle down and grow roots, so they just did not know that things were not how they should be. However, once the novelty wears off and they begin to see the negative aspect of the society, and all societies do have them, by that time they have invested a large portion of their life there/here

I say, then it is time to move and find the place that you WERE looking for.

Why do most people in America who live in a bad neighborhood want to move out?
Because they want to find something that they like and enjoy more than where they are.

Your thoughts are so strong on the subject of changing the country, then apply for citizenship and drop your American citizenship. You can vote for change then. Let me know when you change citizenship, please.
Your post reminds me of the old stories of Christians going to a country and converting everyone they can in the name of god. You devil people need religion or you’ll vanished into hell.

You eventually will have it your way I think though. Look at the way America was a few years back.
You took a couple of 100 miles trip into other states and seen different things, stores, places to eat, places to go to have fun and all that went with seeing another state.

Now you can’t tell what state your in for the most part, the malls look all the same and have the same stores inside them, places to eat different food almost but gone. MacDonalds, Burger King the list goes on. Water parks and amusement parks all look the same. One big homogenize country with the exceptions groups of people who want special treatments given to them because they’re different and need everyones understanding in order to cope in the homogenized country. It’s all B---S--. But I am opened minded, I don’t give S--- anymore:rolleyes:

[Bones]

The "Maybe not." :cool:"

Was directed at "The Prosecutor", not you, Bokuwa.

NBTP :)

[Bones]

I never, in my wildest dreams, ever thought that I would agree with "bokuwa". :)

As it relates to "The New Forums", I'm having some reservations about continuing to being a member.

I'm all for the "civility" aspect of it, for the good of the community. :rolleyes:

I'm tired of the "doublespeak", forced down our throats by "The Prosecutor".

As it relates to this thread, he wrote:

We can't impose our standards, and I don't see anyone trying to impose them. There is a difference between "imposing" and "affecting", and surely anyone in any country of the world should try to affect those cultures that engage in practices that are based on prejudice or those that cause suffering.

He is "effectively", trying to sway your opinion, while trying to "affect" change within the country that he is residing in. Yet he stated:

quote:
We can't impose our standards, and I don't see anyone trying to oppose them.

I think that he, as well as those of his ilk, are wont to do, are trying to impose those standards.

Another interesting thing, IMHO, the only things that they are complaining about, prevents them from doing what they would like to do themselves.

Due to the current limitations, within Japanese law, they are minor things. But they work them to death within the forums. Why?

Could be to generate interest, try to bend the law to accommodate their ideas of having fun, who knows?

This one interests me, and I'm looking forward to the feedback.

Maybe not.:cool:

[dk]

I really don/'t see why you'd have reservations about continuing to be a member of the forums unless your personal dislike of TheProsecutor is just too much for you. If that's the case, I'm sorry. But that's just too bad.

As far as the doublespeak and trying to persuade people, I don't really see what the problem is. His views on the military are a lot more liberal than mine, but I'm confident enough in my own ways that I can take it like a man and just discuss whatever is on the table at the moment.

I think liberal people DO often go a little too far by taking issue with every problem in the world. I don't think it's a bad thing to take an interest in the world around you, but if you try to tackle every problem you'll never tackle any of them.

But anyway, I'm just wondering why you're feeling that the forums are no longer a good place for you. About the only things that have changed are the design and the addition of two moderators (who have been EXTREMELY helpful in getting these forums up).

Due to the current limitations, within Japanese law, they are minor things. But they work them to death within the forums. Why?

And also, what are we working to death on the forums? You like whale meat or something?

[TheNoNamedOne]

YOU WROTE;
I say, then it is time to move and find the place that you WERE looking for.

Not time at all. Like I said before, all places will have things that one will not agree with. It may be more pragmatic to stay and work for change. Your argument, bokuwa, boils down to appeal to tradition -- because it has been so, it should remain so. That is a falacy, and a simple look at history will show you how outsiders have affected other cultures for the better through change. I had given you some examples, and I see that you have decided to not address those.

But, to give you another example, I guess all those Europeans coming to America several hundred years ago were all wrong, too, for not adapting to the Native American Indian culture, huh? According to your logic they are.

Why do most people in America who live in a bad neighborhood want to move out?
Because they want to find something that they like and enjoy more than where they are.

That is fine. I don't begrudge their choice. It is a choice to either move out or stay and work for improvement. But that many, or most would rather move to an already better place, rather than work to improve a bad place where they already are, does not mean that those staying should not have the right to try and make that change happen -- and neither should they be criticized for that once they have decided to make their home there.

Your thoughts are so strong on the subject of changing the country, then apply for citizenship and drop your American citizenship. You can vote for change then. Let me know when you change citizenship, please.

That is an option, but it is not the only option available to me in order to affect change, therefore it is not necessary that I do so.

Your post reminds me of the old stories of Christians going to a country and converting everyone they can in the name of god. You devil people need religion or you’ll vanished into hell.

Or just simple European settlers displacing the Native Population, huh? Like I listed above.

Your example, while a good one, however, is based on people using superstition and falsehood. If I want to change Okinawa by getting more trees planted on the road side and stop sea walls from being built on turtle nesting grounds, my argument for change is based on science, i.e. trees help reduce the heat island affect of cities, and the ocean ecology is dependent on a wide range of marine animals to be healthy.

[bokuwa]

Not time at all. Like I said before, all places will have things that one will not agree with. It may be more pragmatic to stay and work for change. Your argument, bokuwa, boils down to appeal to tradition -- because it has been so, it should remain so. That is a falacy, and a simple look at history will show you how outsiders have affected other cultures for the better through change. I had given you some examples, and I see that you have decided to not address those.

But, to give you another example, I guess all those Europeans coming to America several hundred years ago were all wrong, too, for not adapting to the Native American Indian culture, huh? According to your logic they are.



That is fine. I don't begrudge their choice. It is a choice to either move out or stay and work for improvement. But that many, or most would rather move to an already better place, rather than work to improve a bad place where they already are, does not mean that those staying should not have the right to try and make that change happen -- and neither should they be criticized for that once they have decided to make their home there.



That is an option, but it is not the only option available to me in order to affect change, therefore it is not necessary that I do so.



Or just simple European settlers displacing the Native Population, huh? Like I listed above.

Your example, while a good one, however, is based on people using superstition and falsehood. If I want to change Okinawa by getting more trees planted on the road side and stop sea walls from being built on turtle nesting grounds, my argument for change is based on science, i.e. trees help reduce the heat island affect of cities, and the ocean ecology is dependent on a wide range of marine animals to be healthy.

You make me laugh.
American indians and leaving them alone with their traditions. When people first started coming to America they eventually took over and then finally took almost everything away from them, helloooo, they didn't have any of what they had before outsiders started to come, did they?

You say they made life better for the indians by effecting change, I don't think the indians, in general, think about it that way.

I guess you dropping your American citizenship to more effectively promote change is just too strong of a commitment to make for your cause.

If I am a Japanese store owner and don't want you to come into my store for whatever reason, mainly discrimination, you not being a citizen standing in front of my store is meaningless to me. I might not get anymore customers or less, but as the owner I make that choice.

As I said before, eventually you will have your homogenized society that your seeking here in Japan.

Like America, where Spanish is everywhere and Mexicans don't have to learn English, Japan will have English everywhere along with the customs and thinkings of the west.

I will say that I think for every Japanese person that is in love with American things, there are just as many who are not and maybe more is my guess.

By the way, when you are in front of the store complaining about how things should be, I will be the silly American in the store down the street where they welcome me and my business, enjoying myself and my stay in Japan.