Gay Marriage

[TheNoNamedOne]

Do you support the right for people to marry anyone of their choice, so long as they are of legal age, regardless of gender?

I do. Why should it be otherwise in the eyes of the law?

[P_chan]

I still don't think that being gay is 'right'. If you ask me it's a preference and not something that happens naturally. However, I think they should be free to do whatever it is they want. If they want to get married, sure go ahead, as long as they can both be responsible parents.

[TheNoNamedOne]

If you ask me it's[being gay] a preference and not something that happens naturally.

Can't preferences be tied to nature, or that which is natural?

See:
Humans prefer the company of other humans. Therefore, it is natural they seek one another out and build societies.

Tigers prefer to live solitary lives. Therefore, in nature, they tend to naturally seek one another out only in order to mate.

Here in two cases, human and nonhuman (both mammilian animals), we see preferences tied to the inherent nature of these animals and guiding them in their activities that we know and can observe to be natural.

[bokuwa]

Can't preferences be tied to nature, or that which is natural?


Humans prefer the company of other humans. Therefore, it is natural they seek one another out and build societies.

Yes, they seek each other out naturally to mate, a man and a man can not and when they do have sex it is not natures way, same for women.

Tigers prefer to live solitary lives. Therefore, in nature, they tend to naturally seek one another out only in order to mate.[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Yes, they seek each other out naturally to mate, a man and a man can not and when they do have sex it is not natures way, same for women



Here in two cases, human and nonhuman (both mammilian animals), we see:eek: preferences tied to the inherent nature of these animals and guiding them in their activities that we know and can observe to be natural.

On another note. This would be good for your vision of a less populated Japan, gay marriages, right?

[TheNoNamedOne]

lol. I geuss it could impact some.

[dk]

I take it you guys haven't seen the movie "Junior" where Arnold gets pregnant?!

[bokuwa]

I did. I liked it by the way.

[P_chan]

That movie was horrible.

[dk]

That movie was horrible.
I thought so too. :cool:

[Bones]

Whatever the civilian population chooses to do, is up to them.

Within the military community however, it's another thing entirely.

NBTP

[Boost]

On a personal level I have trouble believing and/or accepting that being gay is natural. In my mind it actually contradicts the natural being there is no way to procreate. Again, just my personal thoughts on it.

But on the other hand, gays’ being allowed to marry does not threaten me or the sanctity of my own marriage. While I do not necessarily agree with it, I am just as able to ignore it and go about happily in my

[DoctorP]

I have no problem with it. But I am the same as Boost. It is a lifestyle choice as far as I see it. People are not created gay (in my eyes), they choose to be gay. Just like some people choose to be bi-sexual.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Since who we choose is based on attraction, then how can the choice be anything but natural (unless purposely done out of curiosity -- experiment, if you will)?

Does John choose to be attracted to Mary and not Sue? Or does that attraction cause him to choose Mary over Sue?

If the issue is merely about choice, then there is no reason why that would not manifest itself in hetero relations as well when it comes to attraction. If a man* has a hard-on for Tom, then the issue of attraction is coming into play, not merely a concious choice -- unless all hetero men can choose to have a hard-on for any man of their choice. Can we all make that concious decision and choose our man to cause attraction to well up in us?

Try this experiment, men. Right now, make a choice to be attracted to Michael Moore. ....I tried. I can't. My attraction is not controlled by my choice. How did your tests go?


*argument goes the same for women as well

[Boost]

Since who we choose is based on attraction, then how can the choice be anything but natural (unless purposely done out of curiosity -- experiment, if you will)?

Does John choose to be attracted to Mary and not Sue? Or does that attraction cause him to choose Mary over Sue?

If the issue is merely about choice, then there is no reason why that would not manifest itself in hetero relations as well when it comes to attraction. If a man* has a hard-on for Tom, then the issue of attraction is coming into play, not merely a concious choice -- unless all hetero men can choose to have a hard-on for any man of their choice. Can we all make that concious decision and choose our man to cause attraction to well up in us?

Try this experiment, men. Right now, make a choice to be attracted to Michael Moore. ....I tried. I can't. My attraction is not controlled by my choice. How did your tests go?


*argument goes the same for women as well

Yes, it is my opinion we can choose who we are attracted to. It is my preference if I like blonde women over redheads or vice versa. I do not lay the blame of my choice on nature or any other "it's not my fault" reason. And if I so decided to do, I am sure I could consciously choose to start being attracted to men...not saying I have any interest what-so-ever to do this, but I am sure I have the ability to convince myself of that.

And your little experiment is pretty bogus. I mean come on man, Michael Moore??? At least choose an attractive man for your experiment; I'm sure most gay men would say no to Michael Moore too!

[dk]

Ok, Brad Pitt. Go!

[DoctorP]

Try this experiment, men. Right now, make a choice to be attracted to Michael Moore. ....I tried. I can't. My attraction is not controlled by my choice. How did your tests go?



Nice attempt...

But your idea is flawed! People have sex all the time and it is not always based on attraction...so much as it is based on availablitiy. Just as the alcohol content in some peoples bodies make a 3 look like a 10! They know that the person is not a 10, but they choose to believe that they are a 10.

This even happens with sober people....it is just that the alcohol makes things easier. It could also have something to do with self esteem issues too.

[DoctorP]

But...we are going offtopic in this thread. Perhaps we should look at the original post and keep the discussion there...

Do you support the right for people to marry anyone of their choice, so long as they are of legal age, regardless of gender?

I do. Why should it be otherwise in the eyes of the law?


We could debate whether being gay is a choice or not in another thread.

[Boost]

Ok, Brad Pitt. Go!

LoL Hmmm tempting but only if his wife can be there too. :)

[xxzjxx]

What I would ask, is.. what IS natural anyway? Even if we consider it "Unnatural" it is still natural because we are doing it as human beings. We are in our natural habitat as mammals so who's to say our choices aren't supposed to be what they are.

Being gay is not a "choice" one makes, thats my opinion. On that same note, I say that gay people should be able to do what ever they want that makes them happy, as long as it doesn't disturb their neighbors. Once you start interfering in other peoples lives, thats the day you have gone too far. Like the Declaration of Independence states "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", So if you take this into consideration, I think you can understand how unfair it would be to subject someone because of their genetic differences.

Separation of church and state is very important when you are considering if gay marriage should be legalized or banned. If you really want religion to control the way our laws work, then you should think twice about what that can do to our society as Americans.

[dk]

I agree with your entire post.

Well, just about. I'm not gay, so I wouldn't know if being gay is or isn't a choice. I've always believed that it IS a choice, but I really couldn't tell you for sure hehe. I like women. It's never been a choice for me. I like the female anatomy. I guess it might be the same for gay people. I'm just unable to understand it.

But the rest of your post I completely agree with.

[xxzjxx]

I agree with your entire post.

Well, just about. I'm not gay, so I wouldn't know if being gay is or isn't a choice. I've always believed that it IS a choice, but I really couldn't tell you for sure hehe. I like women. It's never been a choice for me. I like the female anatomy. I guess it might be the same for gay people. I'm just unable to understand it.

But the rest of your post I completely agree with.

LOL, ok now imagine this.

You love the anatomy of a woman right? Well can you understand why a woman would love the anatomy of a man? I think its the same principal, its just something we can not put our thumbs on, because our brains are slightly different depending on sexual makeup.

But you also have to keep this in mind, our brain is what controls these sexual wants, it could be possible that certain chemicals in a human can change while the brain develops, maybe even to make a woman think more like a man, or a man to think more like a woman.

I dont think it means your penis will fall off and invert itself, but that would be some crazy stuff.

[Tempestuous]

Separation of church and state is very important when you are considering if gay marriage should be legalized or banned. If you really want religion to control the way our laws work, then you should think twice about what that can do to our society as Americans.

The separation of church and state is that the government cannot force or coerce anyone to take part in religious worship or prayer services. Americans have the right to join whatever religious group they like or refrain from taking part in religion at all. No one can be forced to support, aid or fund religious groups. That the government will remain neutral on religious questions, leaving decisions about God, faith and house of worship attendance in the hands of its citizens.

Let's face it, in our country people vote according to their moral standards & opinions. If it is morally wrong in their convictions they will vote against it. Are their morals partially rooted in past or present religious trainings? Quite possibly. It could also be rooted in the standards that they were raised by without religious training.

I don't see that you are going to be able to get the morals that have been shaped by peoples religious beliefs out of them. You are not going to get an entire legislature, house of representatives, congress, etc that are completely void of all faith or religion.
I do not see you separating religion from the state.

[bokuwa]

I agree with your entire post.

Well, just about. I'm not gay, so I wouldn't know if being gay is or isn't a choice. I've always believed that it IS a choice, but I really couldn't tell you for sure hehe. I like women. It's never been a choice for me. I like the female anatomy. I guess it might be the same for gay people. I'm just unable to understand it.

But the rest of your post I completely agree with.


This is getting way off track, My opinion, regarding nature and natural instincts.

. biological drive: an inborn pattern of behavior characteristic of a species and shaped by biological necessities such as survival and reproduction
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

You are forgetting about what is natural and when a human being gets horny it is just like any other animal, the natural instinct to bred.

How do two people of the same sex come off as being natural when it is breeding time?
Getting drunk and picking up the first available sex partner by the way isn't natural either.:eek:

You want to say same sex couple are okay and that's fine in your opinion and you have no issues as long as they keep to themselves, I have the same opinion.

Gays are not keeping to themselves, they are trying to change too many things to have a say in main stream America and I have a big problem with that.

[xxzjxx]

This is getting way off track, My opinion, regarding nature and natural instincts.

. biological drive: an inborn pattern of behavior characteristic of a species and shaped by biological necessities such as survival and reproduction
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

You are forgetting about what is natural and when a human being gets horny it is just like any other animal, the natural instinct to bred.

How do two people of the same sex come off as being natural when it is breeding time?
Getting drunk and picking up the first available sex partner by the way isn't natural either.:eek:

You want to say same sex couple are okay and that's fine in your opinion and you have no issues as long as they keep to themselves, I have the same opinion.

Gays are not keeping to themselves, they are trying to change too many things to have a say in main stream America and I have a big problem with that.

But your final quote shows that you are not concerned about the happiness of individuals based on their natural instincts. How as straight men and women are we to say that it is not natural? When we truly do not understand nature in any case, yes we are mammals who view ourselves as the most intelligent on earth.. but how do we know this? Just because we guess? I never had a chance to think like a dog, or a bird, or a dolphin, so I don't know.

That is where you delve into the realm of "what is right, what is wrong" by natures standards.

I dare to say though, as embarrassing as it is, why do boys experiment with each other at young ages? I'm not saying that this is something that is easy to converse about, but it might explain some of that misunderstanding between the straight human and the homosexual human.

If you leave a comment about "Those gross homosexuals!" than it will show your open mindedness on this issue. I know it is a struggle for us straight people to understand, but you have to consider things we just cant comprehend because of our gender.

Gays are not keeping to themselves, Ok i agree we see a lot of crazy things, but you have to bear with them and try to see things from their viewpoint. I don't want to elaborate on that though, because my post will be sooo lonnng.. if i do.

[bokuwa]

But your final quote shows that you are not concerned about the happiness of individuals based on their natural instincts. How as straight men and women are we to say that it is not natural? When we truly do not understand nature in any case, yes we are mammals who view ourselves as the most intelligent on earth.. but how do we know this? Just because we guess? I never had a chance to think like a dog, or a bird, or a dolphin, so I don't know.

That is where you delve into the realm of "what is right, what is wrong" by natures standards.

I dare to say though, as embarrassing as it is, why do boys experiment with each other at young ages? I'm not saying that this is something that is easy to converse about, but it might explain some of that misunderstanding between the straight human and the homosexual human.

If you leave a comment about "Those gross homosexuals!" than it will show your open mindedness on this issue. I know it is a struggle for us straight people to understand, but you have to consider things we just cant comprehend because of our gender.

Gays are not keeping to themselves, Ok i agree we see a lot of crazy things, but you have to bear with them and try to see things from their viewpoint. I don't want to elaborate on that though, because my post will be sooo lonnng.. if i do.

YOU WROTE;























Who are we to say what is natural and not?
Okay, go right ahead and explain how you keep the human race going without natural breeding, a man and a woman having sex.
The answer is you can not, the race would stop. That is why it is referred to as natural or nature. Gay people having sex is not the natural way and you can not slice it any other way.

Gay people can put things where they don’t go and feel good about it, good for them. They like getting each other off, good for them. I don’t want to hear about it and I don’t want my kids too either, keep it to themselves and be happy. For me, most gay people are just attention getters and want special things out of life or society, F___ them. There are far too many people in the world who need attention, real attention in order to have a better life for themselves and for me gay people don’t even make the list.

I will only speak for myself when I say that I never experimented sex with other young boys growing up and did not give it any thought. I do remember being about 10 years olds and trying to experiment with the girl down the street. Different strokes I guess for different people


You posted some very strong thoughts you have about those mindless people who follow religions and do because they are weak or something close to that. But to gays you have a more opened mind, okay. I don't care about them. If they did not exist it would not effect me one way or another. How is that for my open mindness?:p

[xxzjxx]

Yea, you think? I am not a big fan of organized religion, I think its unfair to make people think they must go to church or go to hell. As corny as it sounds, that is the general thinking of most Christian religions.

Ridiculousness; Benny Hynn.

NATURE is what im talking about, and differences are part of nature, that is what makes it natural for this to happen. Its natural for nature to go off course and produce a human that is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex. I know, procreation is the goal of all life, but that does not mean that we should put homosexuals to death because they arent borne to natures standards. Have an open mind. Dont be such a homophobe.

[bokuwa]

Yea, you think? I am not a big fan of organized religion, I think its unfair to make people think they must go to church or go to hell. As corny as it sounds, that is the general thinking of most Christian religions.

Ridiculousness; Benny Hynn.

NATURE is what im talking about, and differences are part of nature, that is what makes it natural for this to happen. Its natural for nature to go off course and produce a human that is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex. I know, procreation is the goal of all life, but that does not mean that we should put homosexuals to death because they arent borne to natures standards. Have an open mind. Dont be such a homophobe.

The whole thing about gays is that it is not natural and you agreed in part, I am done.

Let me try this again, I don't care about gay people and what they're problems are. As far as I am concerned they made they're problems by being gay.

Dont be such a homophobe;
Call me what you want. I don't pick things in my life that I don't like to do, read about, be around, or support. Because, I don't like them and it makes me happier to do things I do like.

Simple things for simple minds, like me:D

[xxzjxx]

You probably dont like gays because you were raised to not like them. Influenced by friends, family or what ever. In that case Its safe to say you werent borne into this world not liking a group for there sexual preferences.

I dont see being gay as a problem at all, I think the problem is more on the close minded.

I didnt agree with you about it not being natural, if you read more carefully, you will see that. So, if you are content on saying such a thing, I'm very confused.

[bokuwa]

You probably dont like gays because you were raised to not like them. Influenced by friends, family or what ever. In that case Its safe to say you werent borne into this world not liking a group for there sexual preferences.

I dont see being gay as a problem at all, I think the problem is more on the close minded.

I didnt agree with you about it not being natural, if you read more carefully, you will see that. So, if you are content on saying such a thing, I'm very confused.

I don't know why you would be confused. I thought I stated my thinking pretty clearly.
You like and accept gay people and care about their place in society.

I don't give a rat's a__ about them and if the rest of the world wants to give them a place in society ,so be it. I will go along with it but I do not have to like it or accept it personally.

Others issues in the world are of more interest to me and things that I want to have take up space in my mind.

Homeless people, hungry people, kids who need help, old people, people with disabilities and my list goes on, but it just so happens my list does not have gay people on it, for the reasons I have given in earlier posts.

[xxzjxx]

Wow, get angry too.
Here is an easier way to clear this up for you. Do you believe in human equality? If so, then gay rights should be on your list of things to eradicate from the world. You cant be selective about human rights issues, and especially equality; Race, Sex, Sexual Identity.

If you cant slate that into your agenda, then thats a very good sign that you may be a bigot.

[bokuwa]

Wow, get angry too.
Here is an easier way to clear this up for you. Do you believe in human equality? If so, then gay rights should be on your list of things to eradicate from the world. You cant be selective about human rights issues, and especially equality; Race, Sex, Sexual Identity.

If you cant slate that into your agenda, then thats a very good sign that you may be a bigot.

I have no problem with who I am. Some people think a good guy and some don't, oh well.

Are you a homosexual or you have a family member that is?
You had written somewhere on this forum about boys experimenting with each other, when growing up, I never did or my brothers or my friends. You seem to take this whole topic to heart, I don't.

Reason I ask is, this forum is just something to do with nothing else to do for me and some posts make me laugh, a lot really, and some make me a little sad. To be angry for me to read something posted here, just ain't going to happen. :)

[xxzjxx]

I have no problem with who I am. Some people think a good guy and some don't, oh well.

Are you a homosexual or you have a family member that is?
You had written somewhere on this forum about boys experimenting with each other, when growing up, I never did or my brothers or my friends. You seem to take this whole topic to heart, I don't.

Reason I ask is, this forum is just something to do with nothing else to do for me and some posts make me laugh, a lot really, and some make me a little sad. To be angry for me to read something posted here, just ain't going to happen. :)

I'm glad your on the offensive now. That is a pretty cheap shot you took. Why don't you take your 3rd grade debating skills elsewhere. I can't even say anything to you now, because I know you will give an immature answer.

[Asshat]

Everyone is looking at this from a moral issue! Why? What do I care about someone else's moral choices as long as they don't affect my happiness?

No, the issue is darker. What if gay men and women do marry? (Like they do in most civilized countries) What happens to that tax base? Now, instead of a bunch of single people paying their fare 35 percent of income taxes, they too will get that big break.

It isn't right? Who is going to fund our ill-managed social programs like Medicaide and Welfare?

Oh, and as far as that natural selection about what is "just not right?" Sometimes I see really ugly men with decent women. Sheesh. That just isn't right! Or sometimes I see ugly women with kids! Who is sleeping with them? It just isn't right I tell ya!

Oh wait...we only sleep together to procreate.

[InDuhUSA]

I think what gets me is how homosexual have been able to politicize their sexual preference. They have borrowed from the legitimate Civil Rights cause and made an illegitimate one of their own. African Americans in America and other places were discrimanted due to something they could not help nor hide. You cannot help being born with a certain skin color and, unless you were very, very light skinned and looked whit and no one knew who your parent(s) were, you could not hide the fact that you were African American.

African American suffered (and still do today in many places) simply because they were born with a certain tone of skin. Something they could not get rid of nor hide. I have seen thousands of babies with dark and brown skin. They did not choose it. Ever seen a homosexual baby? A black man can go into a job interview and be denied a job because he is black. A white homosexual can into that same job and if he remains silent about his sexual preference, can get that job that was denied to the African American.

How can a sexual preference be put on the same scale as someone's right to be treated human regardless of skin color? How can I be a bigot simply because I do not accept someone's sexual preference? It does not even make sense. Should I be called a bigot because I do not accept pedophilia? Pornography? Beastiality? Necromancy? Adultery?

Let's get REAL here. In America (and I suppose Japan as well), sex, regardless of how perverted (with the exception of pedophilia and rape) is not a crime. Therefore, no homosexual will go to jail for engaging in this lifestyle. But I don't see why one should be given rights and privileges to reward their perversion.

That's my two cents (and I am sure that some of you don't think its worth even that much). :D