Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

[Trail]

I just finished watch a Youtube video that really got me thinking. Are you personally Pro-Life or Pro-choice? Or are you like me and stand on a fence becuase the situations dictate your choice?

This just sort of blew me away.... not that I am trying to sway people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qj3nWy7HMs

[GODH8SU]

I'm a true blooded American so just like everything else that I have the RIGHT to do, I have the RIGHT to choose.

[Tanimaga]

Pro choice, but after seeing the results of an abortion, I was floored. If anyone in my family or friends considered one because of non medical reasons, I would weigh in against it.

[Zim the Invader]

I think it would depend on the situation. Except in the event of life threatening situations, I couldn't foresee choosing abortion for my own child. But for other people, I don't think it's my place to push my beliefs onto them. Let them choose based upon their beliefs. Every choice has consequences, be them good or bad. Let each choose for themselves and live with those consequences free from the persecution of others who are not effected by either choice.

[OtisPMerriweather]

I'm pro-mind-my-own-damn-business-when-it-comes-to-a-stranger's-vajayjay.

[P_chan]

Depends on the situation but ultimately it's up to the individual. Shouldn't be something decided on a whim and I'd rather see the baby be born and put up for adoption.

But of course, I can't tell a woman what to do with her body:rolleyes:

[elgringoloco]

Doesn't the baby get a 'choice' too? With the plethora of birth control techniques available, preventing pregnacy ain't brain surgery.

[Zim the Invader]

Doesn't the baby get a 'choice' too? With the plethora of birth control techniques available, preventing pregnancy ain't brain surgery.

You're arguing a moot point. I have yet to see anyone say "abortion is wonderful fun! Everyone should have at least one of them!" Nobody I've ever heard of is pro abortion, just pro choice.

But the point is it isn't your choice to make for other people. If you don't support abortion, choose not to have one in the event you are ever faced with that decision.

[dk]

I'm pro-mind-my-own-damn-business-when-it-comes-to-a-stranger's-vajayjay.
Trudat, but for myself, I'm pro-life. Some things stuck with me even after giving up on religion. That's my choice of preference. I won't push it on anyone.

[DJ Tak]

Pro choice, as long as both parents are in agreement.

[Blues]

Pro choice. Pro lifers still get to have their kids either way if abortion is legal. Dont impose personal preference into law.

[Blues]

An abortion is better than an unwanted child who could become a criminal or an orphan. I read in Freakonomics that crime went down when abortion became legalized in an eastern european country.

[Richard Burns]

Doesn't the baby get a 'choice' too? With the plethora of birth control techniques available, preventing pregnacy ain't brain surgery.

Show me a birth control method that is 100%. (abstance does NOT count either smartasses).

[Richard Burns]

Pro-CHOICE!

[retributionnk]

This a tough one, and I've given it zero thought, but I'll say.... pro choice. And to take it a step further, I am FOR abortions in all situations. As a means of contraception, for fun, I don't care. A lot of it boils down to my concept of when humanity begins, but much of it is also about freedom...

To put it into a scenario:
If I were to wake up in the morning, and I was laying in a hospital bed next to someone, with some contraption that allowed my heart to keep both of us alive, I'd absolutely maintain a legal right to have myself disconnected from that person. I apply that same theory to abortion.

[0341isa]

Doesn't the baby get a 'choice' too? With the plethora of birth control techniques available, preventing pregnacy ain't brain surgery.

What baby? As long as its still early (lets say first tri?) and the fetus is could not have any viable expectation of living outside the womb, its not a baby. Isn't it just a not yet complete collection of cells that could possibly be a living baby months later? Collections of cells suspended in fluid don't make choices. (If every collection of possible, future, maybe potential babies, suspended in fluid rated an official choice, then I guess I'd have to look down at my splooge every time and ask how it felt about things...:rolleyes: sorry. that was crude but hey....)

[Bones]

This a tough one, and I've given it zero thought, but I'll say.... pro choice.

To put it into a scenario:
If I were to wake up in the morning, and I was laying in a hospital bed next to someone, with some contraption that allowed my heart to keep both of us alive, I'd absolutely maintain a legal right to have myself disconnected from that person. I apply that same theory to abortion.

"And to take it a step further, I am FOR abortions in all situations. As a means of contraception, for fun, I don't care. A lot of it boils down to my concept of when humanity begins, but much of it is also about freedom..."

And if your parents had that same train of thought......:scratchchin:

[retributionnk]

And if your parents had that same train of thought......:scratchchin:

Nice, Bones. As usual, your well-noodled one liners amuse. Let's just assume that all pregnancies are unwanted, and that everyone who has sex is irresponsible. That logic (or lack of) does nothing but ensure that ALL individuals have no freedoms. It's that exact thought pattern that gets more of our rights taken away on a daily basis. That's the drive behind gun control, pointless seatbelt laws, the war on drugs, and any other freedom-inhibiting ideas and legislation we endear so much.

And to answer your statement more directly, I think my parents do/did have that same train of thought. The fault in your thinking lies with the fact that you automatically assumed some immorality or irresponsibility in their actions. Maybe, just maybe, some people want to reproduce?

[badkitty]

I believe in the right to chose. There are times where shit happens and having a baby at the moment isn't a great choice. I would like to have the option to either have the baby or not. But I chose to have perm sterilization so that wouldn't happen....

[Richard Burns]

"And to take it a step further, I am FOR abortions in all situations. As a means of contraception, for fun, I don't care. A lot of it boils down to my concept of when humanity begins, but much of it is also about freedom..."

And if your parents had that same train of thought......:scratchchin:


I personally wish my parents did have this train of thought. I would be a win win situation for all, I wouldn't exist and wouldn't have had to deal with the crap I went through growing up.

So again Pro-Choice.

Now if it was MY daughter I am pro-life and would do everything to convince keeping the baby.

[Bones]

I personally wish my parents did have this train of thought. I would be a win win situation for all, I wouldn't exist and wouldn't have had to deal with the crap I went through growing up.

So again Pro-Choice.

Now if it was MY daughter I am pro-life and would do everything to convince keeping the baby.

Well, you are you. And I have no problem with what you have posted.

Both of our kids were from a previous marriage (on the wife's side), but I love them as I would my own.

Well you do exist, you are making a difference, and you will have a positive impact on the lives of your family. Failure is not an option.

Bones

[danielwagner]

Let the child have an advocate.

Not to worry though there is a President in office who is for ending the life processes for those in the womb, partially birthed, and those who survive the abortion attempt left alone and unattended in their final moments and for exporting and supporting a genocide against the unborn of other nations.

Incest, pedophilia and murder, to name a few, are immoral and illegal. People are allowed their choice (free will) in these matters too.

I wonder if these acts will ever be found as a penumbra right too?

[Richard Burns]

Incest


Uk if both ppl are of age i could give a rats ass if johnny wants to bang his sister jill. Not my life.

[danielwagner]

An abortion is better than an unwanted child who could become a criminal or an orphan. I read in Freakonomics that crime went down when abortion became legalized in an eastern european country.

Is this philosophy similar to the tyrant’s position of “the ends justify the means”?

[danielwagner]

Uk if both ppl are of age i could give a rats ass if johnny wants to bang his sister jill. Not my life.

Still illegal in most states...for now, give the powers that be some time. It may all change to the position supported in your quote^.

[Richard Burns]

How about the prolifers pay to raise those children since they are forcing ppl to keep them.

Somebody tell me a reason NOT counting religion why abortion shouldnt be legal. Furthermore making abortion illegal dont do shit. Abortion is illegal in Brazil yet they have more abortions than anywhere else worldwide, abortion is illegal in the Philippines yet ppl get it done there. Hell I bet in Saudi one could get one if they had enough money to pay ppl off to keep quiet.

I think the only way to end abortion is NOT to make it illegal but to change the way ppl think about it. Make the adoption process easier, make more support availible, get fathers to step up so women arent elft alone and scared, get parents and kids talking and open communication.

But trying to make it illegal is rediculous.

[Richard Burns]

Still illegal in most states...for now, give the powers that be some time. It may all change to the position supported in your quote^.

I thought is was illegal everywhere. My point is I personally think its disgusting but who am I to force other ppl to believe it just becasue I do?

[Richard Burns]

Is this philosophy similar to the tyrant’s position of “the ends justify the means”?

wasn't his what the US said when they killed off the native americans?
so why does America now sit on its high horse?

[danielwagner]

Everbody that has a free will can exercise it RB. Why are some things illegal and others not? Natural Law may well have an influence on some of those inalienable rights.

When the founders adopted the US Constitution why was it written for America's posterity (those yet unborn)? Abortion has been a crime against humanity for thousands of years and only in our most recent enlightened age has it become a "right".

[danielwagner]

wasn't his what the US said when they killed off the native americans?
so why does America now sit on its high horse?

I'm sure there were people who voiced opposition against injustice in every age.

Just because one finds oneself in contrast with the "popular" verbalized position of the day is no reason that he should surrender his voice.

[Richard Burns]

Just because one finds oneself in contrast with the "popular" verbalized position of the day is no reason that he should surrender his voice.

Now this I agree with.

[Muku]

In my opinion most abortions are are a method for women to say ooppss made a mistake and not have to face the consequences of being responsible for another life.

However when the unwanted pregnancy is due to rape, incest etc etc etc, it is a method to hopefully right a wrong.

I personally sit on the fence on this issue because it is not cut and dried in my opinion. It is case by case, and I believe a woman has a right to choose what she does with her own body, but I often wonder about the literally millions of lives that were lost due to inconvenience.

It is the burden of a wealthy society that allows medical procedures to end a life before it even started, when we spend so many trillions of dollars on trying to preserve and extend it.

[0341isa]

I thought is was illegal everywhere. My point is I personally think its disgusting but who am I to force other ppl to believe it just becasue I do?

Incest should totally be illegal everywhere. Not as aa moral issue, is a health, safety and welfare of the child issue. Inbred babies are more likely to have serious genetic defects. Why would someone knowingliny and intentionally bring a child into the world, and then stack the odds against him being normally developed? Now, if you were not going to reproduce, and the sis and bro wanted to blow each other or whatever, WTF do I care?

[retributionnk]

Incest should totally be illegal everywhere. Not as aa moral issue, is a health, safety and welfare of the child issue. Inbred babies are more likely to have serious genetic defects. Why would someone knowingliny and intentionally bring a child into the world, and then stack the odds against him being normally developed? Now, if you were not going to reproduce, and the sis and bro wanted to blow each other or whatever, WTF do I care?

I totally agree with what you're saying about the rights of an innocent child, and with your opinion on incest in general. However, I've got to disagree with you on the fact that incest should be illegal. Society overwhelmingly agrees that incest is wrong, so having a law outlawing such acts is pointless. The folks that are having incestuous relationships are going to have them despite what laws say. And on the same note, more people won't just start being incestuous because there's no more law against it. While I am personally disturbed by incest, and think that those who commit incest are mentally ill, I'm not going to limit their crazy rights to diddle each other's privates, as diddling hurts no one except the 2 consenting adults who committed the act.

Long story short, this law isn't stopping the innocent from being hurt, so why should it exist?

[Boost]

**CAUTION...SEMI GRAPHIC PHOTO TO FOLLOW***

Sorry for the late entry, but here's my couple of pennies worth.

I view a fetus after conception as more than just a "blob of cells". Within those cells is all the genetic coding for development into a full grown adult after it has gone through the normal development time.

Just because it doesn't "look" like a baby doesn't mean it isn’t. A baby doesn't look like a toddler, a toddler doesn't look like a adolescent, an adolescent doesn't look like an adult and so on. We are in a continual state of development from fetus to old age, but at the end of the day, we still are regardless of what phase we are in.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/531086/0_21_TheHandofHope_450.jpg

[CaptainMcLusty]

This is a forum. Lets use our words instead of trying to engage everyone's gag reflex with morbid photos. Please.

[Boost]

This is a forum. Lets use our words instead of trying to engage everyone's gag reflex with morbid photos. Please.

If you have a problem with the photo I posted then you have just that.

Deal.

[Muku]

The reality is that like the photo that Boost posted fetuses like that are aborted by the millions in the US today. The shock value of that picture however in my opinion just raises the ante.

How would everyone here like it if I started posting pictures of human torture, blood and guts of the violence that humans wreak upon one another?

The argument could be made that hey maybe the people doing that should have been aborted as well. Ok that's a stretch but you get the point.:)

[P_chan]

Boost makes a valid point, but I groaned him because I hate it when someone uses shock photos to try and sway opinions, weather intentional or not.

I think I beat my opinion on this subject into the head of everyone enough times already so I don't need to explain it again:D

[Tempestuous]

I think the photo wasn’t to be gruesome or make people ill- but to make the point.....the genetics are there & though in utero it still has the same likeness as a human post-delivery. Which was the point of what he typed.
Least that was how I took it.
Kind of a, case-in-point type of thing

[bli182_2001]

Im pro, pro-tired of this thread, it dosent matter what people believe in certain cercumstance people would be willing to change their mind if it happend to them in any seriano

[Tempestuous]

Also if he was trying to be morbid- he would have post some of those NASTY post-abortion pictures.....you know those ones they try to "scare you straight" with. Saline aborted babies or partial birth bits & peices.....
:barf::barf::barf::barf:

[Tempestuous]

Pregnant at young age, it happened to me.
So my opinion has been supported by my own action. He's now a teenager.

I was also the worthless "ooops" whose mother was put on a bus, abortion dues in hand, by her well meaning Mom & my sperm donor & told not to return until the deed was done.

[TheLastDon]

Actually there is a good story and debate about that photo.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519181,00.html

Ten Years Later, Boy's 'Hand of Hope' Continues to Spark Debate


Nearly 10 years after a stunning photograph of his tiny hand traveled the world, Samuel Armas has a firm grip on what "The Hand of Hope" means to him.

"When I see that picture, the first thing I think of is how special and lucky I am to have God use me that way," Samuel told FOXNews.com. "I feel very thankful that I was in that picture."

On Aug. 19, 1999, photographer Michael Clancy shot the "Fetal Hand Grasp" — his picture of a 21-week-old fetus grasping a doctor's finger during innovative surgery to correct spina bifida. Nearly four months later, on Dec. 2, Samuel Armas was "born famous."

The photo, which first appeared in USA Today on Sept. 7, 1999, quickly spread across the globe as proof of development in the womb and was later cited during congressional debates on the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, which passed in 2000.

[Crazysix]

**CAUTION...SEMI GRAPHIC PHOTO TO FOLLOW***

Sorry for the late entry, but here's my couple of pennies worth.

I view a fetus after conception as more than just a "blob of cells". Within those cells is all the genetic coding for development into a full grown adult after it has gone through the normal development time.

Just because it doesn't "look" like a baby doesn't mean it isn’t. A baby doesn't look like a toddler, a toddler doesn't look like a adolescent, an adolescent doesn't look like an adult and so on. We are in a continual state of development from fetus to old age, but at the end of the day, we still are regardless of what phase we are in.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/531086/0_21_TheHandofHope_450.jpg
Blah so what it looks like a surgery not an abortion, y.....still a bunch of gawd damn cellls and oh boost this picture is not gross

[Tempestuous]

C6,
He edited the post to add the warning
Last edited by Boost; Today at 03:52 PM. Reason: Warning placed
after McLusty's comment.

I dont think he was intending it to be gross. (don't know for positive, haven't asked him)

The photo was from a surgery on a developing fetus at 20 wks gestation, I think it was.

[Crazysix]

I mean honestly it doesnt even rate a NSFW...it does IMHO illustrate a pro-choicer argument, but again it is the individual choice...
tell boost I think his photo was right on point ...jesus its funny we can look at pics of men being mangled or killed, but if you put a woman or a baby pics up we get all cross eyed and upset.......Im must totally numb to this,and that speaks volumes about me

[Boost]

Boost makes a valid point, but I groaned him because I hate it when someone uses shock photos to try and sway opinions,

I understand, and also understand those who are pretty sick of the subject...it is probably a dead horse to say the least.

And really my reasoning for posting the photo wasn't so much for shock value as much as just to say look, this is part of why I believe what I believe. When you see the tiny fingers and hand, it makes it more real then just talking about something unseen. It's easy to discredit what you can't see is all.

But unlike some, and not pointing fingers, I don't judge anyone who thinks differently then I do. I believe this and you believe that, if were adults we can accept and "deal".

[rosk0e]

Im pro choice

im also an advocate for the sterilization of dumbasses who treat abortion like another form of birth control (there are quite a few out there)

[Blues]

Just thowing it in the arena:

http://www.doll-hospital.com/tlcimag/odd/o4101.jpg

[Bones]

That's just plain wrong, Zero.:thumbdown::old:

[danielwagner]

Pregnant at young age, it happened to me.
So my opinion has been supported by my own action. He's now a teenager.

I was also the worthless "ooops" whose mother was put on a bus, abortion dues in hand, by her well meaning Mom & my sperm donor & told not to return until the deed was done.

What follows regards only the choices made by the two mothers referenced in the above quote.

I'm sure your son, as are you, is thankful for a mother who chose another's life over convenience. I've heard there is no greater love than to lay your life down for your friends, so no greater love can be witnessed than when one sacrifices to preserve the life of another.

If this comes over as anything less than admiration for a young woman's courage then I have wretchedly missed my mark. It must have taken great courage to make a choice of sacrifice when the world whispered it's alright to think only of yourself.

I hope you don't find this an embarrassing post; with all the poor news of late it has lifted my spirit and I wanted to say thanks. God Bless

[badkitty]

I find it amazing how men feel about abortion. I wonder if some men would change their Pro-Life stance if their wife/mother/daughter was a victim of rape or incest? How could ANYONE honestly look into a child eyes that they didn't want to begin with. Love doesn't grow overnight and it won't certainly develop over nine months. Has anyone known anyone that has given a child up for adoption? No matter the choice for some people either decision is really difficult......

[Boost]

I find it amazing how men feel about abortion. I wonder if some men would change their Pro-Life stance if their wife/mother/daughter was a victim of rape or incest? How could ANYONE honestly look into a child eyes that they didn't want to begin with. Love doesn't grow overnight and it won't certainly develop over nine months. Has anyone known anyone that has given a child up for adoption? No matter the choice for some people either decision is really difficult......

So being a guy, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on abortion, or at least not an opinion against it?

Now would my stance change if one of those horrible things you mentioned happened to a loved one…it might. I won’t be so closed minded as to say it’s not possible that I would change my mind, but thankfully it hasn’t and I would like to think I wouldn’t change my mind. It seems to me an abortion, even under such terrible conditions as rape/incest, would be punishing the wrong person. The perpetrator of the crime should be castrated and imprisoned for life, but the conceived baby is as much a victim as the mother was.

And yes, I have known someone who gave a child up for adoption, and it was one of the hardest decisions she ever made. But in the end, at least the child has a chance to live and grow up in a good family environment.

[badkitty]

So being a guy, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on abortion, or at least not an opinion against it?

Now would my stance change if one of those horrible things you mentioned happened to a loved one…it might. I won’t be so closed minded as to say it’s not possible that I would change my mind, but thankfully it hasn’t and I would like to think I wouldn’t change my mind. It seems to me an abortion, even under such terrible conditions as rape/incest, would be punishing the wrong person. The perpetrator of the crime should be castrated and imprisoned for life, but the conceived baby is as much a victim as the mother was.

And yes, I have known someone who gave a child up for adoption, and it was one of the hardest decisions she ever made. But in the end, at least the child has a chance to live and grow up in a good family environment.

Not at all, it just amazes me on how many men are against abortion and remain so very closed minded about it. But honestly, this choice will always fall on the womans shoulders... No matter how supportive or unsupportive a man is.

[Boost]

Not at all, it just amazes me on how many men are against abortion and remain so very closed minded about it. But honestly, this choice will always fall on the womans shoulders... No matter how supportive or unsupportive a man is.

True, it is ultimately a woman’s choice in the end. Though in a committed relationship, I would expect the man would have some voice as well being half of those cells are contributed to him as well.

I guess I am just another one of those, “what about the baby” types. I’m not against women and their say so, but the voiceless in this situation gets over looked and disregarded most of the time also.

[retributionnk]

True, it is ultimately a woman’s choice in the end. Though in a committed relationship, I would expect the man would have some voice as well being half of those cells are contributed to him as well.

I guess I am just another one of those, “what about the baby” types. I’m not against women and their say so, but the voiceless in this situation gets over looked and disregarded most of the time also.

There is no baby in this equation. There is a blastocyst, a grouping of cells with the potential to become a life form. There is no self-awareness, no soul (if you're the religious type), nothing that would survive outside the enclosure of the womb for any substantial period of time (a lot like a cyst, or a tumor, for example). People tend to place this emotional value on what biologically is quite simple. Don't take this to be cold hearted, as I understand for a woman this is a quite different experience emotionally than can be described by this un-impregnatable man. However, none of that changes the scientific facts stated above. Abortion will always be the choice of the pregnant person, as that person has ownership over her own body, and can do with it what she pleases, as long as in doing so she does not violate the rights of another. And as I explained above, a fetus is NOT a human being.

[badkitty]

But that is the big debate on when life actually begins... for some it's the date of conception, for some its when there is an actual traceable heartbeat.... the debate continues......

[retributionnk]

Scientifically, and philosophically there is no debate; in fact some philosophies even argue that life begins after birth. I think those using religion as the criteria to determine the beginning of a human life are wrong in doing so, as there's no evidence to back up their argument. Behavorial science however, can prove that self-awareness doesn't happen until well after a baby is born. Conception as the point where life begins applies nowhere else in nature, yet religion wants to apply it to humans. Does a plant seed have a right to live? No. A mold spore? No. Hell, a chicken egg? No. Yet folks think somehow that they can pick and choose when these apply? It's ignorance at its best.

[danielwagner]

I find it amazing how men feel about abortion. I wonder if some men would change their Pro-Life stance if their wife/mother/daughter was a victim of rape or incest? How could ANYONE honestly look into a child eyes that they didn't want to begin with. Love doesn't grow overnight and it won't certainly develop over nine months. Has anyone known anyone that has given a child up for adoption? No matter the choice for some people either decision is really difficult......

Simply, I see a life taken; one that never had the opportunity to take a care free breath. This developing child committed no crime.

[Tempestuous]

What I find interesting in the whole abortion debate is that the fetus/cell tissue is not counted as a human UNLESS you happen to be the person who takes the Life of the mother (be it automobile accident, shooting, stabbing, poisoning, etc.) who happens to be pregnant (no matter how many weeks gestation) & you can be charged with TWO counts of murder.
One for the mother
One for the child she was carrying.

So on one side of the law- you have SHE has life & the fetus has none
& on the other you have she has a right to life as well as does the fetus.

It makes me scratch my head when I read or hear things like; "victim was pregnant & they are upgrading the charges against the assailant" (http://www.wkrg.com/crime/article/atmore_shooting_update_victim_pregnant/24198/)

Just seems to me that the life or lack there of, depending on how you see it, should have the same value if the mother takes it or someone else does.

[danielwagner]

What I find interesting in the whole abortion debate is that the fetus/cell tissue is not counted as a human UNLESS you happen to be the person who takes the Life of the mother (be it automobile accident, shooting, stabbing, poisoning, etc.) who happens to be pregnant (no matter how many weeks gestation) & you can be charged with TWO counts of murder.
One for the mother
One for the child she was carrying.

So on one side of the law- you have SHE has life & the fetus has none
& on the other you have she has a right to life as well as does the fetus.

It makes me scratch my head when I read or hear things like; "victim was pregnant & they are upgrading the charges against the assailant" (http://www.wkrg.com/crime/article/atmore_shooting_update_victim_pregnant/24198/)

Just seems to me that the life or lack there of, depending on how you see it, should have the same value if the mother takes it or someone else does.

(Government's) scornful hypocrisy at its finest. The government makes both positions absolutes. It is a homicide, it is not.

How confusing it all becomes when mankind attempts to justify an opposing position to Natural Law (as envisioned by the founders and reflected in the unalienable rights they referenced).

[Richard Burns]

Another note and I am pro choice but I do wonder how it's okay for a mother to abort a baby but yet if she uses drugs, drinks while preggers etc than she's looking at jail time or if like Temp said some kills a pregnany woman than they are charged with 2 murders.

So it's ok for a mother to do it but it's murder if someone else does hmmmmm?

BUT I imo abortion is a necesarry evil. and unless prolifers want to take out their checkbooks and pay for people to keep the babys they can't say shit.

I fact with the economy, overpopulatoion crisis etc i think more ppl should have more abortions if its what they want.

[Boost]

and unless prolifers want to take out their checkbooks and pay for people to keep the babys they can't say shit.


They do...

A. It's either called adoption.

or

B. It's called welfare amongst other social programs. (i.e. tax payer money)

[Richard Burns]

They do...

A. It's either called adoption.

or

B. It's called welfare amongst other social programs. (i.e. tax payer money)

Nope. The reality is most kids are not adopted and are stuck in the system til they're 18.

Also welfare is not fair because ALL taxpayers pay into it. I say NO welfare and PROLIFERS pay for it.

[Tempestuous]

part of the adoption problem is the adoption process. Months & months of inspections, assessments, tons of money & lots of ridiculous demands when all you wanna do is help out by taking a lil one home.

Not talking about the foster system which are kids taken away from their biological families & in such a mess that they move from house to house of different people trying to make a buck while housing a kid or two. Usually in a situation that is as damaging or more so than the one DCFS took the kid out of.

Talking about the babies given up for adoption, newborns are the choice ones & they aren't easy to get. Know an armload of people who end up adopting from other countries cause the US is too expensive & non-cooperative to deal with.

[Crazysix]

what does a fetus and an egg have in common??????
-if you beat them they both scramble

[Tempestuous]

EWWWW!!! That is nasty C6!!

[P_chan]

what does a fetus and an egg have in common??????
-if you beat them they both scramble


Dude, that's one of those jokes you hear and you just shake your head and say ".........no........."

[Richard Burns]

That's why I say the adoption process should be easier. Adoption should be cheaper in the states and since kids need homes in the states and there should a tax or some sort for parents that adopt a kid from overseas.

[Crazysix]

he he, i couldnt help myself
" i saw the shot and i took it"-Lt Pete Mitchell , Top Gun

[Boost]

Nope. The reality is most kids are not adopted and are stuck in the system til they're 18.

Also welfare is not fair because ALL taxpayers pay into it. I say NO welfare and PROLIFERS pay for it.

I agree about the adoption system needing revamped...I know there are many people out there that want to adopt, but the system is pretty bunked at the moment.

And sorry pal, I'm kinda busy being a responsible adult and paying for the children we chose not to abort. To bad the PROCHOICERS can't do the same.

[Blues]

what does a fetus and an egg have in common??????
-if you beat them they both scramble

I guess dead baby jokes go in the humor forum? :D

[Richard Burns]

And sorry pal, I'm kinda busy being a responsible adult and paying for the children we chose not to abort. To bad the PROCHOICERS can't do the same.


yea but with abortion as an option nobody has to take the responsibility, saves money, saves resources.

[Blues]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/56915/30-days-pro-choicepro-life#s-p2-so-i0

30 Days puts a pro-choicer into a pro-life community.

[Zim the Invader]

This will never be over. Someone will always have a different opinion.

[Bones]

Nice, Bones. As usual, your well-noodled one liners amuse. Let's just assume that all pregnancies are unwanted, and that everyone who has sex is irresponsible. That logic (or lack of) does nothing but ensure that ALL individuals have no freedoms. It's that exact thought pattern that gets more of our rights taken away on a daily basis. That's the drive behind gun control, pointless seatbelt laws, the war on drugs, and any other freedom-inhibiting ideas and legislation we endear so much.

And to answer your statement more directly, I think my parents do/did have that same train of thought. The fault in your thinking lies with the fact that you automatically assumed some immorality or irresponsibility in their actions.

I'm glad that my "one liners" amuse you. I'm saddened by the fact that so many people actually fail to contemplate what I am trying say.

" Maybe, just maybe, some people want to reproduce? "

Natural born instinct, I guess.

But the way that you have worded your message, implies to me that you either have no sense of responsibility, or common sense.

The only rights that you appear to want are your own. The person that someone has been impregnated has no rights, they should have known better.

Is that your line of thinking?:scratchchin:

Bones:old:

[smithwer]

Choosing Life is always the best choice. If a birthmother chooses life and can't raise her baby then she can contact Ai no Kesshin 0120-41-8277 and a trained councelor will help her in making a good choice in choosing adoption for her baby. Even in the case of rape, abortion is never a good choice.

[abonifi1]

I find it amazing how men feel about abortion. I wonder if some men would change their Pro-Life stance if their wife/mother/daughter was a victim of rape or incest? How could ANYONE honestly look into a child eyes that they didn't want to begin with. Love doesn't grow overnight and it won't certainly develop over nine months. Has anyone known anyone that has given a child up for adoption? No matter the choice for some people either decision is really difficult......

I always find this funny in these debates, when it comes to abortion, Its a womans issue, but if that woman decides to have the child, and then sues for child support, the arguement changes to "It Takes Two"

[uriel]

Choosing Life is always the best choice. If a birthmother chooses life and can't raise her baby then she can contact Ai no Kesshin 0120-41-8277 and a trained councelor will help her in making a good choice in choosing adoption for her baby. Even in the case of rape, abortion is never a good choice.

no, it isn't ALWAYS the best choice. it is often the best choice. yeah, your "counselor" will help her in making a good "choice". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: more like your "counselor" will help them make a good "choice" so long as that choice is to carry to term and put the child up for adoption.

tell me, have you ever been raped? i haven't, and i can't even imagine what it would be like to live with that not to mention... aww the hell with it. people like you will never see that pushing YOUR beliefs on others because it's "best" for them isn't the best thing for them. people need to stop preaching what the hell is best for others.

[Bones]

no, it isn't ALWAYS the best choice. it is often the best choice. yeah, your "counselor" will help her in making a good "choice". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: more like your "counselor" will help them make a good "choice" so long as that choice is to carry to term and put the child up for adoption.

tell me, have you ever been raped? i haven't, and i can't even imagine what it would be like to live with that not to mention... aww the hell with it. people like you will never see that pushing YOUR beliefs on others because it's "best" for them isn't the best thing for them. people need to stop preaching what the hell is best for others.

Or, people should start to accept responsibility for their actions.

Bones

[badkitty]

I always find this funny in these debates, when it comes to abortion, Its a womans issue, but if that woman decides to have the child, and then sues for child support, the arguement changes to "It Takes Two"

Well you know with my first child i was 19 and his 'father' was 38 and he was pro choice and said that we should have the baby (I wanted to have an abortion). i did and he left when i was 5 months along... 2 years, a ass load of broken promises and a million bounced checks later, i took him to court to terminate parental rights... he did without question..... Now its 2009, my baby is 10 almost 11 and i have been rasing him without his help. So yes it takes two but what if the other party leaves you high and dry????? Do I look back and wonder what my life would have been like? Yes... Do I wish I wouldn't have had my baby??? In the beginning, yes.... So yes, it will always be a female issue when some men don't step to the plate to handle their responsibilites.....

[retributionnk]

I'm glad that my "one liners" amuse you. I'm saddened by the fact that so many people actually fail to contemplate what I am trying say.

" Maybe, just maybe, some people want to reproduce? "

Natural born instinct, I guess.

But the way that you have worded your message, implies to me that you either have no sense of responsibility, or common sense.

The only rights that you appear to want are your own. The person that someone has been impregnated has no rights, they should have known better.

Is that your line of thinking?:scratchchin:

Bones:old:

I think you may have misunderstood my point, and maybe my wording was a bit ambiguous. My point was that you're operating under the assumption that abortion is always an irresponsible thing. I disagree quite vehemently.

Often, abortion is necessary for the safety, sanity, well-being or health of the mother and/or the unborn child. Not to mention, we all have ownership over our own bodies. If a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy, that's no business of yours, or of mine for that matter.

So my question to you is, what makes you think that abortion is irresponsible? What do you say to the concept of self-ownership?

[Crazysix]

this entire thread reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dexRA-YVo5Q

[Boost]

with abortion as an option nobody has to take the responsibility, saves money, saves resources.

That's part of the problem I suppose...people really shouldn't participate in the activity unless they are prepared to accept the responsibility of the possible consequences of participating in said activity, be it having sex, riding a motorcycle, or even joining the military.

I don't think very many people actually join the military to actually die for their country, or ride a motorcycle to become street pizza, much less have sex to procreate. But if you do join the military, ride a motorcycle, or have sex, this is what could very well happen! And unless you are prepared to accept such destiny...well then perhaps it is better to find another hobby.

Not trying to be the moral compass, just saying.

[Boost]

have sex to procreate.

Besides, there are a great number of "toys" that do not have nearly the risk with equal the gratification! :smile4:

[Alana]

i believe in the right to choose, and i agree that in many cases, an abortion is a better choice than having an unwanted child that ends up on the streets, or in an otherwise bad situation. I also believe in the right to have an abortion if you find out your fetus is sick or terminally ill, and will not be able to live his or her life.

[Bones]

I think you may have misunderstood my point, and maybe my wording was a bit ambiguous. My point was that you're operating under the assumption that abortion is always an irresponsible thing. I disagree quite vehemently.

Often, abortion is necessary for the safety, sanity, well-being or health of the mother and/or the unborn child. Not to mention, we all have ownership over our own bodies. If a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy, that's no business of yours, or of mine for that matter.

So my question to you is, what makes you think that abortion is irresponsible? What do you say to the concept of self-ownership?

Well put. Too many people use abortion to terminate a life, simply to eradicate a mistake from the night before. Be they the perspective mother, or father.

There are some stories out there about mothers/fathers, murdering their children. These people are seriously insane/ uneducated people, who have failed to take advantage of the programs available to them, to help them cope with their stress.

The concept of "self-ownership", ceases to exist when two people have created a life together. Then one, or both parties, should have a right to decide whether that new being lives, or dies. And they should only be allowed to make that decision after having gone through professional counseling.

Bones

[Fire4Effect]

I am Pro- Choice, however, I do believe "the Choice" should be arrived at by both parties...

[Tempestuous]

Being Charged with murder (http://www.startribune.com/nation/45860367.html?elr=KArks:DCiUMEaPc:UiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUL PQL7PQLanchO7DiUr)

So here is one of those cases I had mentioned.
Teenage Mom, pregnant & doesn't want to be. Gets bright idea to have friend beat her to cause a "spontaneous" abortion/miscarriage.
Now both are potentially in trouble.

man in Utah was charged Friday with attempted homicide in the beating of a pregnant teenager who police say asked for the pummeling in an effort to abort her six-month-old fetus.

[Sex Wax]

Being Charged with murder (http://www.startribune.com/nation/45860367.html?elr=KArks:DCiUMEaPc:UiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUL PQL7PQLanchO7DiUr)

So here is one of those cases I had mentioned.
Teenage Mom, pregnant & doesn't want to be. Gets bright idea to have friend beat her to cause a "spontaneous" abortion/miscarriage.
Now both are potentially in trouble.

They all should be C unt -punted and sent to the Diamond Mines of Africa, where they will be raped at least 6 times an hour, with a charcoal lubricant.

Stupid women? No excuses.

Sympathy for being young....hell no. She should know what is right and wrong by the time she's banging. The parents should even get arse-raped by an angry elephant for not talking to her.

But for the other stuff....it's a hard call.

If my wife or daughter was raped and knocked up, i'm sure she would choose to abort, and I would be 100% behind her from my cell after killing the dude.

To get rid of a kid just for financial reasons....i would opt to have the kid and put it up for adoption.

To screw around, get knocked up and leave a kid in the dumpster....I will gladly kick you in the t wat and raise the kid as my own...no need for you to kill it.

But if you abort for your own reasons, and not extenuating circumstances...well, it's your body.

But treat the mother an her offspring with some sort of respect if it is warranted.

'nuff said.

[Richard Burns]

I do question though how is the girl having her friend beat her to abort any different than a doctor doing it?

[Richard Burns]

Whoa after reading the article both the guy and the girl should BURN.

[hankypanky]

Whoa after reading the article both the guy and the girl should BURN.

WHY? You support abortion, but having a dude beat the shit out of her stomach is cruel where, going in with a vacuum is ok? D' oh! Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I've had miscarriages in my marriage, have step children, have blood children, they are all my children, and i love them all the same.

I work 2 jobs now to support my kids, and if i had more, would work 3 jobs.

Men i believe are more responsible for getting a girl knocked up than the woman.

If the milkman don't deliver, the milk don't get drunk!

But for the record, being a mother is the toughest job in the world! I'd rather sweat blood than have to go what a mother goes through for life! God bless mothers!

[Richard Burns]

I do support abortion. I think it's the best choice for some people. Shit I wish I was aborted it would have been better than my childhood.

I am a parent I have a 5 year old and 1 year old. Abortion is not a choice in my family but I'm not gonna force my personal belief on others.

As for getting knocked up the woman is MORE responcible I say she's the one who spreads her legs.

[Richard Burns]

As far as her letting her friend beat her I say it's fine she consented.

BUT since the baby survived the baby should be taken away from her and if the baby has any dammage they should fry.

[P_chan]

As for getting knocked up the woman is MORE responcible I say she's the one who spreads her legs.Always passing the blame, classic RB:thumbdown:. Maybe we should cut off her nipples for being a "whore"?:rolleyes: **** it let's just torture them both to death!

[Richard Burns]

Always passing the blame, classic RB:thumbdown:. Maybe we should cut off her nipples for being a "whore"?:rolleyes: **** it let's just torture them both to death!

Oh I see so when hank says the man is More responsible that was fine? But when I say the woman is more responsible than it's passing blame?

Nice.

Nice job

[P_chan]

I just chose to reply to your post RB. It takes two to tango and if you bust a nut where a nut shouldn't have been busted then you're just as responsible for the outcome as she is. Unless you drugged and raped her, then it is 100% your fault. Trying to blame the woman "just because" isn't something a real man does.

[Richard Burns]

I just chose to reply to your post RB. It takes two to tango and if you bust a nut where a nut shouldn't have been busted then you're just as responsible for the outcome as she is. Unless you drugged and raped her, then it is 100% your fault. Trying to blame the woman "just because" isn't something a real man does.

I agree with this. 50/50 is fine. BUT read what hank said he said he thinks men r more respnsible.

Plus I think if women knew that they couldn't take men to court for support they would be more careful.

[P_chan]

So please RB, enlighten me. How is it more a woman's "fault" if two consenting adults have sex and get pregnant. She didn't force your penis inside of her did she?

[Richard Burns]

So please RB, enlighten me. How is it more a woman's "fault" if two consenting adults have sex and get pregnant. She didn't force your penis inside of her did she?

I guess I just got pwned. U got me. But maybe hank can enlighten us on why men are more at fault?

But the fact is I can't prove my case it's just MY feeling but in reality yes you're right it is 50/50 fault

[danielwagner]

Change “pummeling” to “medical procedure” and it’s all good.

Whatever happened to the ends justify the means?

The U.S. Supreme Court Justices who “blessed” an American mother with the “right” to “lawfully” take the life of her unborn child have truly left a confused and perplexing dilemma for many of us simple souls.

Man’s law has seen children and other human beings sacrificed for some benefit or gain of society’s rulers or society in general throughout the ages.

I see the U.S. Supreme Court Roe v. Wade (1973) decision in much the same light as I see the Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) decision. In Dred Scott the U.S. Supreme Court lawfully and effectively decided that a human being was not a human being. These “un-humans” happened to be “un-humans” “imported” from another country. These children, women and men were, it was lawfully decided, simply “property.”

We are told that the child developing within his or her mother’s womb is a fetus or a collection of tissue or another description where the personhood or humanity of that child is denied. They are “Mommy’s property.” It is so much more palatable to take the life of another living being if we can some how find them as something less than human, better to look at them as property that can be disposed of in a manner the “property owner” sees fit.

Our nation and this world struggled with the legal and moral standing of man enslaving man for generation after generation. This nation (and parts of the world) came to a place and time where enslavement was recognized by many as inhuman.

How much longer will society tolerate the denial of personhood of the new Dred Scotts of today?

[retributionnk]

...We are told that the child developing within his or her mother’s womb is a fetus or a collection of tissue or another description where the personhood or humanity of that child is denied. They are “Mommy’s property.” It is so much more palatable to take the life of another living being if we can some how find them as something less than human, better to look at them as property that can be disposed of in a manner the “property owner” sees fit.

Our nation and this world struggled with the legal and moral standing of man enslaving man for generation after generation. This nation (and parts of the world) came to a place and time where enslavement was recognized by many as inhuman.

How much longer will society tolerate the denial of personhood of the new Dred Scotts of today?

Thank you for presenting one of the most logically coherent pro-life arguments I've heard in quite a long time. Well written.

Your statement, however, begs the question: What is the specific trait or group of traits that makes us human, and when in fetal development does that trait come about? If we knew that, we could definitively say, on this day it's expendable, and the next day it isn't. Unfortunately, we have neither philosophically nor scientifically answered this question as a society. To place laws on abortion at this juncture, having no clear answer on when humanity begins, would logically lead to proposals similar to this one: A woman discharging eggs during a menstrual cycle is the denial of the right to life.

[danielwagner]

From the perspective of all the Dred Scotts (those less than human); at what point must a master (the powerful) be humane to his slave (the subservient/powerless)? Never? After he has possessed him for a time? Thirty days from the purchase of his human property? Or, would you say, from the beginning?

And if you were to choose from the beginning, would the humane thing be recognizing the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for all thus negating the master’s claim on this (heretofore un-human) person as property?

The question, I believe begging to be asked is, “can a court pick and choose consistently who is human and who is not?” Rhetorically asked of course, but do you think one may innately know the answer to this? If one’s legal position is drawn from Natural Law can another judgment be honestly embraced if it is found contrary to those principles?

Nonetheless the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled whether overtly or by de facto judgment that a slave and the unborn are not human. Slaves are property and the unborn child is property. If the unborn child was actually a human, he or she could not be executed until after due process (legal representation) and after being convicted for a capital crime.

Thankfully for slaves that at some point they miraculously became human beings. Now that is some trick! But sadly for the unborn, he or she only becomes human under protection of law when someone other than the child’s mother desires her child dead or mommy goes about it without the services of a state licensed abortionist.

I see an atrocious agenda and a horrible inconsistency in it all.

[Richard Burns]

Daniel explained this so good that I now question my views and probaly am pro life now. Honestly because the inconsistency in it all is rediculous.

[Richard Burns]

But then again abortion is a lot better than the life the child might have to go through. I am really on the fence now. I always thought I was pro choice but now I don't know where I stand anymore. But I always want to side with freedom.

[hankypanky]

Oh I see so when hank says the man is More responsible that was fine? But when I say the woman is more responsible than it's passing blame?

Nice.

Nice job

OK, maybe a little over board but..........how many times have you heard a woman say to a man.......turning a classic "Man's Line Around"!


Just put it in a little.....just to feel it!

I know you won't cum inside of me!

i don't like the feel of a rubber inside of me!

I love you and will always be with you!

You didn't get me pregnant, it must have been one of my other boyfriends!

I'll pay 50% of the abortion........

I can't be pregnant, i had my tubes tied...

I'm pregnant?....Not my problem!


All men's lines with women saying them. To get to the "P", men will act just like the snake in the garden of evil to sugar coat the situation. Until something happens............like getting pregnant!

Stick with a handjob!:D

[danielwagner]

Daniel explained this so good that I now question my views and probaly am pro life now. Honestly because the inconsistency in it all is rediculous.

But then again abortion is a lot better than the life the child might have to go through. I am really on the fence now. I always thought I was pro choice but now I don't know where I stand anymore. But I always want to side with freedom.

I have taken the liberty of combining two of your successive quotes.

Thank you for your reflections RB. I can appreciate your conflicting emotions and struggle to discern where liberty and unalienable rights peacefully coexist. Perhaps that is a place where neither infringes on the other.

[P_chan]

Daniel explained this so good that I now question my views and probaly am pro life now. Honestly because the inconsistency in it all is rediculous.

Fickle much?

[retributionnk]

You're very right, daniel, on your point that courts cannot consistently judge what is or is not human, and they've proven that quite definitively. As for your Dred Scott point, I still think there is a leap of logic that needs to be made to equate slaves to a fetus.

While we can't narrow down a single trait that makes us human, we generally have a group of biological traits which make us people. Slaves have those traits already when they're purchased, save the case where one is born in to slavery. A fetus, however, only develops those biological features during pregnancy, so logically the baby does not become human until some point after a fertilized egg has started to develop. So I think the question will always remain--at what point do we accept that fetus as human? I think the answer to that must lie within the person who is impregnated. While I personally think that Natural Law dictates we should err on the side of the right to life in this case, I cannot say that someone should be punished for deciding otherwise.

[badkitty]

But why does abortion become a government issue???? I would rather people have the option to make the decision to have an abortion that not at all. Why revert back to the 'coathanger days'? Why eliminate that freedom to just simply make the choice? I wouldn't mind restrictions on when you cannot perform an abortion (say 12 weeks).

[danielwagner]

You're very right, daniel, on your point that courts cannot consistently judge what is or is not human, and they've proven that quite definitively. As for your Dred Scott point, I still think there is a leap of logic that needs to be made to equate slaves to a fetus.

Though I understand your position both Dred Scott and the unborn child have been treated as less than human. I was pointing out a consistency between how the Court viewed a man (pick any powerless slave) and an unborn child (pick any aborted child save those circumstances where the court sees the unborn as a human being).

I see a consistency by the court viewing these two beings as less than human, where one eventually became a human by an act of Congress (14th Amendment-but to the best of my limited knowledge never by the U.S. Supreme Court) while the other had been understood to have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness until the U.S. Supreme Court in all its wisdom decided in 1973 that the unborn no longer merited that because only humans may claim that unalienable right (save special circumstances).

A human status flip-flop roughly one hundred and sixteen years apart.

While we can't narrow down a single trait that makes us human, we generally have a group of biological traits which make us people. Slaves have those traits already when they're purchased, save the case where one is born in to slavery. A fetus, however, only develops those biological features during pregnancy, so logically the baby does not become human until some point after a fertilized egg has started to develop. So I think the question will always remain--at what point do we accept that fetus as human? I think the answer to that must lie within the person who is impregnated. While I personally think that Natural Law dictates we should err on the side of the right to life in this case, I cannot say that someone should be punished for deciding otherwise.

As much as the "Big Bang" (if you subscribe to the scientific belief that matter is neither created nor destroyed) contained all that you see today so does the child developing in the womb that you see at birth.

Many of these mothers were used for an agenda or simply financial gain. These women deserve emotional and spiritual support not condemnation .

[danielwagner]

But why does abortion become a government issue???? I would rather people have the option to make the decision to have an abortion that not at all. Why revert back to the 'coathanger days'? Why eliminate that freedom to just simply make the choice? I wouldn't mind restrictions on when you cannot perform an abortion (say 12 weeks).

I think it comes down to a matter of unalienable rights (Mom v. her child). The Constitution is what all challenged lawful/unlawful acts are measured by. So it would be difficult to avoid a legal opinion.

Who isn't for the righteous exercise of liberty and respecting the rights of others? I think many of our enumerated rights and state (the People's) powers have been trampled by a heavy handed over reaching federal government.

I believe, prior to Roe v. Wade, but cannot say for sure, if the mother's life was in jeopardy due to her pregnancy she or if she were unconscious or comatose her husband or another family member with legal standing could have the child taken to spare the mother's life.

[Richard Burns]

Side note I think we should do more to promote the morning after pill and make it more availible. Give it out at the high schools, colleges, health clinics

This would make less abortion.

To fund it we can take money away from welfare.

[danielwagner]

Side note I think we should do more to promote the morning after pill and make it more availible. Give it out at the high schools, colleges, health clinics

This would make less abortion.

To fund it we can take money away from welfare.

RB, it would still be an abortion. You would simply be trading the abortionist's theater for a participating pharmacy.

[danielwagner]

If you are interested in trends...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx?CSTS=alert

[canjap02]

I have to say Im pro choice. When I was 21 i was haveing fun with this 17yr old friend of a friend, and one thing lend to another and she got pregers. I told her what ever she wanted to do is her choice. If she wanted to have it, I would be there for the bady and if she didnt want to have it, I would be there too. After a long time of not talking to me (like 3 weeks) she told me shed wanted the abortion. We had it and now years letter, she is one of my best friends. If we had the baby at the time It would have been bad for both us and the baby (we werent able to give it the great life it should have had).

Now 8 yrs later I have a 2yr old son (which my wife didnt want to have, but we were 3 months in , so It was too late) Now I am the happest man alive, cause of the time limits on when you can have an easy abortion.

Hope this helps some people think.

[Richard Burns]

RB, it would still be an abortion. You would simply be trading the abortionist's theater for a participating pharmacy.

it's not an abortion. It's the morning after sex. A matter of hours after the deed.

[Bones]

it's not an abortion. It's the morning after sex. A matter of hours after the deed.

You seem to make a habit of failing to understand what people are trying to explain to you, in order to weasel your way out of accepting responsibility for your "deeds".:thumbdown:

It's "ok" to take a laxative for constipation, to get rid of whatever bad food is stopping you up.

But the way that you have worded your response, indicates that you have no respect for life.

B

[Richard Burns]

You seem to make a habit of failing to understand what people are trying to explain to you, in order to weasel your way out of accepting responsibility for your "deeds".:thumbdown:

It's "ok" to take a laxative for constipation, to get rid of whatever bad food is stopping you up.

But the way that you have worded your response, indicates that you have no respect for life.

B

Well I'm married and a parent of 2 and I do a damn good job of handling MY responsbilities.

I think pushing a morning after pill is a great compromise between abortion and not abortion.

I respect life but I'm also cynical. I
from america a country where life is cheap where murders happen everyday so forgive me if I'm not emotional.

[Bones]

Well I'm married and a parent of 2 and I do a damn good job of handling MY responsbilities.

I think pushing a morning after pill is a great compromise between abortion and not abortion.

I respect life but I'm also cynical. I
from america a country where life is cheap where murders happen everyday so forgive me if I'm not emotional.

As compared to teaching your children "Moral Values"?

"Epic Fail!!!!"

Ask your parents.:D

[Richard Burns]

As compared to teaching your children "Moral Values"?

"Epic Fail!!!!"

Ask your parents.:D

Well I have 2 belief systems. There my belief system that I apply to issues lie this when it involves other people and then there's my belief system that I apply to my family.

Example for the public I think abortion is a neccesarry evil.

BUT if it was a member of my family I am pro life all the way.

[Bones]

Well I have 2 belief systems. There my belief system that I apply to issues lie this when it involves other people and then there's my belief system that I apply to my family.

Example for the public I think abortion is a neccesarry evil.

BUT if it was a member of my family I am pro life all the way.

:scratchchin:

[dk]

Sounds kind of like hypocrisy.

[retributionnk]

Well I have 2 belief systems. There my belief system that I apply to issues lie this when it involves other people and then there's my belief system that I apply to my family.

Example for the public I think abortion is a neccesarry evil.

BUT if it was a member of my family I am pro life all the way.

Mind explaining the logic behind that? I think I may understand what you're getting at here, but I'd like to 'hear it from the horse's mouth' so to speak.

[Richard Burns]

I am pro choice in that I say the government should stay out of it and let the people choose. Not my place to decide for them.

Now if my daughter was to get pregnant I would do everything in my power to get her to keep it and wife and I would help her raise it.



Does this make more sense?

[Okiman]

Just a few comments to make on this hot topic. When does life begin? Some say at conception, others say in the later tri-mesters, some say until the baby comes out so who is right on the time?

Can a new born baby survive on it's own if left by the mother? Can a fetus in the womb survivie on it's own if left by the mother?

Some say that women that leave their new borns in a trash can are murders while others support infanticide since it was the mother's wishes to not have the baby.

Why is it when a pregnant mother is murdered (regardless of tri-mester/refer to when life begins) it is always counted as a double homicide?

Why is it if you have an abortion, you can just leave, but if you have a still born (regardless of timing), you have to fill out a death certificate?

Just a few comments and questions that I have been looking for :scratchchin:

[danielwagner]

Just a few comments to make on this hot topic. When does life begin? Some say at conception, others say in the later tri-mesters, some say until the baby comes out so who is right on the time?

Can a new born baby survive on it's own if left by the mother? Can a fetus in the womb survivie on it's own if left by the mother?

Some say that women that leave their new borns in a trash can are murders while others support infanticide since it was the mother's wishes to not have the baby.

Why is it when a pregnant mother is murdered (regardless of tri-mester/refer to when life begins) it is always counted as a double homicide?

Why is it if you have an abortion, you can just leave, but if you have a still born (regardless of timing), you have to fill out a death certificate?

Just a few comments and questions that I have been looking for :scratchchin:

Outstanding observations and questions.

[danielwagner]

I am pro choice in that I say the government should stay out of it and let the people choose. Not my place to decide for them.

Now if my daughter was to get pregnant I would do everything in my power to get her to keep it and wife and I would help her raise it.



Does this make more sense?

RB, can you see an absolute being possible or required in a situation? To illustrate a point; for example, a woman is sexual attacked and murdered. Can we all agree that both acts are unlawful? Her right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was taken by the criminal usurper.

Personal rights and liberty must be limited when they affect the life, liberty or happiness of another human being. Are we talking about boundaries? In that context I think that we as members and stakeholders in society must assess who the unborn child truly is.

[danielwagner]

it's not an abortion. It's the morning after sex. A matter of hours after the deed.

It could be easily classified as a chemically induced "spontaneous" abortion

[Richard Burns]

It could be easily classified as a chemically induced "spontaneous" abortion

Technically true but it's a lot less barbaric than using a vacume to suck the poor baby out to die.

There no cut and Erie answer IMO and that's why I say pro choice for the world andpro life in my family.

[Okiman]

Outstanding observations and questions.

Thanks Dan, I am just waiting to see if anyone wants to respond or comment on it.

[Bones]

RB, can you see an absolute being possible or required in a situation? To illustrate a point; for example, a woman is sexual attacked and murdered. Can we all agree that both acts are unlawful? Her right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was taken by the criminal usurper.

Personal rights and liberty must be limited when they affect the life, liberty or happiness of another human being. Are we talking about boundaries? In that context I think that we as members and stakeholders in society must assess who the unborn child truly is.

This is actually a pretty good response. And RB, made a pretty good comeback in regards to something that I had addressed to him earlier.

As it relates to the "Morning After" pill, there is no way that this is the kind of thing that should be sold over the counter at your local drug store, especially to young people.

Or how about those unfortunate girls who somehow ended up in the "Sex Trade", against their will? Could this pill be used on them, to keep them "marketable"? Or the married business man, or.....

The list goes on, and on, and on....

At the very least, if this thing does turn out to work, it should only be available after seeing a "Real Doctor" and obtaining "Solid" medical advice in regards to your health.

Bones

[tim duncan]

am pro whatever...you want...

have thought about this...and if you are pro life, then so be it...its all good..go forth and propagate the earth...

if you are pro choice ...then so be it....realize that women have rights that are equal to men...but it is the women have the babies/ the cessearians, the variable labor experience, the complications, the experience of dealing with a dead end dad who had the smooth tounge.. and selfish wallet....and selfish outlook in life....

its all complicated.....

keep in mind that there are many who make bad decisions, who have made bad decisions forced upon them, who feel like they have no choice in the matter...based sometimes on ignorance, force, love or economics....etc

also realize that a child is innocent...and can accomplish a lot of good/ bad in the world.....regardless of who their parents are...

it all complicated...this question is gold..because it is based upon what it means to be a human being....it is about life...the life of the parent v. the life of the child...a question based upon belief at its core....and the core is the tiny person who may be born or not....:)

[Sex Wax]

b acon rights !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!