Google: Privacy Nightmare?

[DougP]

Forget about spy satellites and phone tapping. We're exposing ourselves just fine without them.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=349745

There's also another BBC news report on it but I can't find it right now.. Good report.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Imagine how Google could be 20 years from now. And what if the U.S. government could erode property rights and nationalize it putting it within government control.

Welcome 1984 -- just several decades late.

[DougP]

better late than never. Funny thing is technology is accomplishing more than the govenment has been trying to.

[Muku]

better late than never. Funny thing is technology is accomplishing more than the govenment has been trying to.

Free market economy!:thumbup1:

[TheNoNamedOne]

Free market economy!:thumbup1:

Yes, good to a certain degree. We already accept that monoplies are not good for consumers i.e. citizens, and have made laws to protect us from that.

When the power of one entity becomes so pervasive in our lives, buying the cheapest airline ticket through a google search should not be seen as worth the cost of our privacy to the point where we are transparent.

[dk]

I'm not too concerned, really. Maybe I should be, but who's to say that this supposed master plan wasn't invented by someone in competition with google? I'd like to hear from google's own lips that they are interested in making us all transparent.

Who created this video and where have they pulled their facts from?

[TheNoNamedOne]

I'd like to hear from google's own lips that they are interested in making us all transparent.

Would you trust them after they helped the Chinese chase down activists in China who criticised the government there?

To me such action runs smak against their motto: Don't be Evil

Maybe they have a secret motto we don't know of. Hold on, yes, I just googled it and found it:

Help the evil.

We need this guy (http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgpp0893+the-unknown-rebel-tiananmen-square-june-5th-1989-poster.jpg) to come back and finish what he tried to inspire. But he better do it soon before google has him pegged.

[DougP]

I'm not too concerned, really. Maybe I should be, but who's to say that this supposed master plan wasn't invented by someone in competition with google? I'd like to hear from google's own lips that they are interested in making us all transparent.

Who created this video and where have they pulled their facts from?

There was another artical on this. A more objective one. Still quite :scared:. They kept asking the Google rep why is it necessary to keep everyones personal information on file? And he had no real response. He just kept saying its only for two years at best. I could care less about the FBI looking over my shoulder but having some internet search engine company broadcasting my info for everyone to see is quite alarming.:(

[dk]

How do they get past the IP level to determine who you are? I'm sure it's easy for them to peg down that such and such IP address did a search for such and such query, but seriously, how are they getting into the ISP's data as to who the actual surfer is? Because that's what's needed in order to blow this wide open.

I can tell each of your IP addresses. I can get each of your ISP names. What I can't get, without asking your ISP directly, is what your name and date of birth is. Last I checked, your SSN isn't broadcasted with your IP address.

[dk]

Would you trust them after they helped the Chinese chase down activists in China who criticised the government there?
Woah, google helped hunt down people who were breaking their nation's laws? :eek:

IMHO, they should have stayed out of it completely, but at least they didn't directly HELP break the laws of the land.

Would you object if google helped the US hunt down people who regularly distributed child porn? Or regularly surfed/searched for child porn? Because for them it would be pretty easy to AT THE VERY LEAST flag IP addresses. What is google's responsibility to the law, and who gets to decide which laws may be broken while the others may not be when it comes to something as international as the internet?

[DougP]

Its interesting what you'll get when you search the same word(thing) on google in different countries. NK I hear doesn't give you so much. :)

BTW I'm glad I've had quite a few different IP addies in the last 6 months. Proxies help a bit too.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Would you object if google helped the US hunt down people who regularly distributed child porn? Or regularly surfed/searched for child porn?

I wouldn't object in any case where limited court orders are granted on short term bases in hunting down violent or predatory criminals -- as long as independent oversight were in place.

The fear is that it leads to creeping more and more into other areas -- the proverbial "slippery slope" -- if you will.

Where there is no direct individual victim I do not accept hunting down internet users. I don't see orgs such as governments, the police, Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, PETA, as victims if they are criticized. Google to me has over stepped the spirit of their own motto in doing what they have in China, and once precedences are set, they seem to become acceptable more and more as time goes on, and as that shock when it first happens wears off.

The thing is, if you make exceptions for one thing, then all of a sudden you will have Secret Service Joe come and say to google:

"Hey, Goo! Thanks for helping us nab that child rapist last week. By the way, I know this is a little out of our previous agreement, but we really need to know who these 10 ISPs belong to and their history. We got an email to a police station the other day saying they were gonna blow up half the city. Man, we need to get a good profile of them, and if your data can match it to an exact identity, then hey, you will save us a lot of time and potentially a lot of lives."

But how would Google even know that the threat Secret Service Joe told them existed is in fact real. These 10 people could just be suspects for something far less and hyping the threat to Google reps could be a tactic to help them get their hands in the cookie jar more than they should be allowed to.

No exceptions in any case on the other hand would preclude even Secret Service Joe from even coming to knock on Google's door.

[dk]

So, what would be the difference between google helping track down sexual predators and google helping track down other illegal activities? Both are illegal? How can you justify being for one and not being for the other?

I understand the slippery slope, but as I mentioned before, unless google has ways of breaking into ISP's, I don't see it being very likely they'll have your personal information unless you're one of the users using gmail (is it mandatory to provide some user information?). And if you're using gmail and still complaining, than that's your own fault because this invasion of privacy has been a topic ever since the idea of gmail first came about. If you're still using gmail after all these warnings, that's your (not you TP) own problem.

Unless google is able to take an IP address and use it to directly access your SSN or other identical national ID, then there's no way for google--without YOUR GIVING IT TO GOOGLE--to grab up your personal information. Shoot, most ISP's probably don't even keep track of your SSN. They're more concerned with your credit card number, and it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY an ISP is going to just dish out your CC number to anybody. Seriously, how are they going to get your medical records out of your IP address?

I want someone to answer that for me.

[TheNoNamedOne]

So, what would be the difference between google helping track down sexual predators and google helping track down other illegal activities? Both are illegal? How can you justify being for one and not being for the other?

I think the magnitude of the harm done to the individual justifies it.

But, to be honest, I am not so convinced on letting it be ok for one and not the other. That is why I put up that blocked scenario to point out the slippery slope. My way of hemming and hawing, perhaps.

I guess I could easily retract my opinion about it being ok to track down some and not others. It wouldn't take much for me to do so.

How about you on the issue? Are you an all or nothing guy, or a "magnitude of the crime" dictates it and the justifications?

[dk]

I suppose I'm an all for it kind of guy if I have to choose between the two. But I still doubt google has the capabilities to do anything more than give out IP addresses. Sounds to me like they may have helped with the investigations, but they were by no means the total solution. Somebody had to take those IP addresses to the individual ISPs who then had to do even further tracking to get to the actual user.

Now, about my above questions... anybody? lol...

[TheNoNamedOne]

Unless google is able to take an IP address and use it to directly access your SSN or other identical national ID, then there's no way for google--without YOUR GIVING IT TO GOOGLE--to grab up your personal information.

I agree with you, dk.

That is the situation now, but I still think eventhough google is becoming a giant among other giants, it is still a baby in its developement.

What about 10 years from now? How I see Google connecting their data collection to actual user identities would be at some time in the future if they were to acquire a major stake in, if not outright owning, major phone companies where ISPs are registered with people' real names and addresses.

What if a new president comes along like Reagan with an emphasis on deregulating what companies other companies can buy up or buy into? I don't think it is such a stretch to imagine Google at some time in the future purchasing companies like ODN or AT&T etc... Once they have that then it is all in house with matching identities to ISPs and their search habits.

I don't know if that answered any of your questions or not. Hope it did. Though my answer is for the future (not so far I think) and not the present situation.

[dk]

I keep reading a bunch of what if what if what if what if.

What if google is the 666?!... What if the moon smashes into the earth in the next 5 years?!

I think people are trying too hard to somehow demonize google and it's potential. Unless I see google outright saying that they have no respect for privacy whatsoever and are looking to literally make everyone and everything transparent, I'm just not going to buy into this at all.

Get me something a little more solid than a youtube video and maybe, just maybe I'll consider rethinking this, but in my eyes, I just see a lot of people afraid of a big bad invention that has thus far done more good than harm.

[TheNoNamedOne]

I keep reading a bunch of what if what if what if what if.

What if google is the 666?!... What if the moon smashes into the earth in the next 5 years?!

Yes, but those things have never happened. We have had experience with monopolies and we have had experience with deregulation and companies diversifying into other sectors that support one another.

It is a hard stretch to imagine Google as 666 or the moon crashing 5 years later without any hint of instability in its orbit. With recent history and the observation of the nature of corporations and at times collusion with the government, it is not a hard stretch at all about what I had outlined above.

In fact, it seem quite easy to see that as not a remote possibility.

... I just see a lot of people afraid of a big bad invention that has thus far done more good than harm.

lol. Yes, until now it has done much more good than harm. We agree there.

[dk]

I really think people are taking this too far. Yes, we've seen monopolies and we've seen deregulation, but we've NEVER seen anything similar to what that video is accusing google of. Ever. And last I checked, google is not a monopoly. There are still several other search engines around, and tons of them pop up all the time. Shoot, at the web conference I went to a few years ago, it seemed like every other booth was some kid trying to make the next best search engine.

Now we've got search engines for everything.

Google in no way owns the monopoly. Nobody is being forced to use google. It just happens to be the best, thus everybody chooses to use it.

Next question, how will a web application, such as google, ever own the monopoly on search engines? It might always be the best, but how is that cause for distrust and demonization?

If that video IS CORRECT, it's not that hard seeing google as the 666, unless I'm getting my stories mixed up. Growing up in the Christian religion, I was taught that The Beast would be a machine with all information on all human beings on the planet, and if you did not have the mark of the beast, you would be persecuted by the rest of the world. Yes, this is what I was taught. Now, I'm not too keen on religion. I've never cared for any of them all that much, but across all religions there have always been prophets, and some prophecy have come true. If what this video is saying about google comes true, it has the smell of Revelation. And I don't say that lightly.

But anywho... I'm just not going to distrust google simply because some buffoon on youtube told me not to with information he could have pulled out of his ***.

[TheNoNamedOne]

Ok, but you had previously simply asked just how could Google get our private information. I think I satisfied that question. With my answer, that doesn't mean that they would be able to get everyone's personal information if in fact they did not have a complete monopoly on all telephone or internet search engines, but to just have a large chunk of each could lead to the compromising of a lot of privacy.

A company doesn't have to be totally evil in the 666 sense to do a lot of damage -- just evil enough. Perhaps like 665.

[Boost]

I really wish I could view the video to have a better understanding of what is driving the current conversation. Unfortunetly my companie's "smart filter" blocks out anything youtube. Does the video really imply that google could be the beast and is that evil?

Without watching the video, my initial thought is some of this could be driven by jealousy based on googles success and growth. Similar to that shown towards Microsoft's success.

I didn't care for google bowing their knee to the governement on the release of search information and ISPs a while back, but then they wern't the only one guilty of doing that.

If I am way off on my comments, I apologize. I intend to watch the video when I get home and have more freedom of internet access. :)

[dk]

Nah, the video didn't say anything about google being the beast. I brought that up. :p The video is just saying that google has intentions to make ALL information available to ALL people. Basically... Well, I'm sure not all... Government secrets will more than likely remain secret... Or we'll likely see the heads of google "dissappeared" if those aren't their intentions.

[Boost]

Nah, the video didn't say anything about google being the beast. I brought that up. :p

Ah bummer! That would've made the video well worth the watch! :)


The video is just saying that google has intentions to make ALL information available to ALL people. Basically... Well, I'm sure not all... Government secrets will more than likely remain secret... Or we'll likely see the heads of google "dissappeared" if those aren't their intentions.

Well they have definitely made some giant leaps in bringing information right to the finger tips of people, but I would hope there would be a line in there somewhere. I guess that would be the issue at hand then, where exactly is that line, if there is even one there at all.

[Asshat]

that doesn't mean that they would be able to get everyone's personal information if in fact they did not have a complete monopoly on all telephone or internet search engines, but to just have a large chunk of each could lead to the compromising of a lot of privacy.

It's not just the social security number that is at stake. With Google, one can easily find out who someone is by amassing small factoids. There are a whole bunch of people out there who are very good at this. It is simple to put together a person's life, leaving only small blanks to fill in.

Most people I know have asked webmasters to remove certain aspects of themselves from the site. That limits the ability of someone to track a person down.

There are army's of IT techs. at work right now tracking everything. From bank accounts, to DMV's to library counters.